MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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With violent crime on the rise in Mpls., City Council asks: Where are the police?
By artappraiser on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 12:37am |
URL:
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/09/15/with-violent-crime-on-the-rise-in-mpls-city-council-asks-where-are-the-police
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Comments
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 12:39am
Not sure why Jilani is confused. A man was choke to death by Minneapolis police. If the city council did not take action, it would have been dereliction of duty. Reforms had to happen. Is the standard to be that you cannot consider police reforms after a police homicide?
Should it be assumed that police will back off from enforcement if a fellow officer is charged with a crime?
The meme after an incident like George Floyd is that there are a few "bad apples".
The actual quote is:
One rotten (or bad) apple spoils the barrel
Meaning
A single bad influence can ruin what would otherwise remain good.
That appears to what is happening in multiple police departments. No good cop is restraining the bad apple.
The good cop is nowhere to be found.
The burden is on police leadership to change operating practices.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 8:50am
The quote is also, "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
Meaning
[...a list of pedantic & irrelevant shit...]
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 9:42am
It is not irrelevant. The police are resistant to civilian control. That is the larger issue. It does not matter that their collective feelings were hurt when four Officer were charged with a crime. No officer stopped Chauvin from killing a man despite the pleas of a crowd. I don't expect you to understand, but the police departments can't win this battle. People want police, but they will not accept overlooking a homicide as a fair trade.
Police departments are facing scrutiny like never before. It is turning out that police leadership in Rochester made a deliberate attempt to cover up details of the homicide in the Daniel Prude case. Vanessa Bryant busted the LA Sheriff who demanded that LeBron James donate money.
Police are losing public trust.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 9:57am
Apparently you think we can't read and digest the news without you pedantically repeating obvious or extraneous factoids back at us.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 10:02am
There are multiple posts about homicides. These are events we find and analyze online, in magazines, in newspapers, etc. There is no objection to those posts.
In this case, I find it interesting that Jilani seems to get pleasure out of discussing the words of a Woke Minneapolis politician than the actions of the Minneapolis police department. I am providing my take on an article, just as others post their opinions. My my viewpoint, cities will try to reform police departments. There will be hiccups along the way. I post my take on the article. I really, don't think about you at all.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 10:31am
Fuckk off with your "I don't expect you to understand" condescending bullshit, you twat. Yes, we all fucking know police abuse is a problem, especially high profile killing of blacks. And we know that defunding the police will allow more murders, as they have these past months,, especially in black sections where a lot of murders happen. And we know that months of protests destroying the inner city infrastructure in the name of black rights is all bullshit and quite counterproductive and even terrorizing, no matter how much you quote MLK, worse it's derailed half the possibility of the black lives protests. And we know that centuries of racism aren't going to shift in the 12 goddamn minutes you act like it will. So why are you wasting our time and boring us with your repetitive fantasies?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 4:10pm
You make it easy to be condescending
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/camden-nj-where-defunding-the-police-worked-didnt-really-defund-the-police-105251107.html
Shifting police funding does not have to lead to an increase in crime
Despite the spike in crime in NYC, de Blasio has a lower crime rate than Guiliani's best year. We are not in the end times.
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/07/giulianis-misleading-attack-on-de-blasio-and-crime/
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 5:33pm
WTF?
So they shifted the police budget from city to county, took away union benefits to save costs, and *increased* the number of police? This is your great example of "defunding" police, hiring scab cops on a discount? The logic is simply amazing. Why even bother...
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 6:55pm
Are you daft? The crime rate went down when the union went away.
Police unions are a major barrier to police reform
Over the past five years, as demands for reform have mounted in the aftermath of police violence in cities like Ferguson, Mo., Baltimore and now Minneapolis, police unions have emerged as one of the most significant roadblocks to change. The greater the political pressure for reform, the more defiant the unions often are in resisting it — with few city officials, including liberal leaders, able to overcome their opposition.
They aggressively protect the rights of members accused of misconduct, often in arbitration hearings that they have battled to keep behind closed doors. And they have also been remarkably effective at fending off broader change, using their political clout and influence to derail efforts to increase accountability.
While rates of union membership have dropped by half nationally since the early 1980s, to 10 percent, higher membership rates among police unions give them resources they can spend on campaigns and litigation to block reform. A single New York City police union has spent more than $1 million on state and local races since 2014.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/us/police-unions-minneapolis-kroll.html
Most unionized workers expect labor unions to secure higher pay and better work conditions, protect their common interests, and defend them from unjust discipline or dismissal.
But when officers make a mistake at work or defy the rules, that slip might amount to a government-sanctioned extrajudicial killing. And when they get away with abuse and murder, often with help from their unions, it reinforces a deep-seated culture of authoritarianism and impunity.
https://www.injusticewatch.org/commentary/2020/analysis-the-thing-about-police-unions/
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 8:44pm
Let me get this straight - you post this breakthrough:
only to find out from the article you linked to that the success *wasn't* from "defunding the police", but instead reforms including those made from breaking up stodgy union bad-cop supporting rules, instead *increasing* number of police (but making them work on the cheap). Which everybody here understands, because there's been a document going around since May (and before) outlining ways to improve the police.
So what exactly is it I "wouldn't understand" except why you post pedantic shit and link to articles that prove the opposite of what they say they do?
(Odd that "defunding the police" here means "defunding/cutting the funding of police officers", not departments as most people would assume)
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 1:34am
the fucking ridiculous thing that really gets me about all of this crap is that all of the blue cities where BLM protesters of rmrd's ilk are stupidly screaming beyond the first month when their general message had already been pounded into every brain: it's still defund the police at the top of their lungs...without any sense to it
Well guess what they are going to be getting their wish sooner than they think as there isn't enough money to fund essential services in any of those cities. Y'all gonna look back at these days as "the good times when only a few people were shot a day" and someone answered 911 within a half hour.
Sharpton's no idiot, he gets that, that the money's gone already for all the pie in the sky shit on BLM list of goals,and damn well better pray enough taxpayers are there to fund the police just as they are, hope for the best or all these cities are going down the tubes into 1970's ghetto hell.
What a joke that this shit has dragged on so long, really, distracted lots of good people, it is simply not a priority, it's some kind of weird emotional hysteria, has no logic to it, is not going to be a priority if Biden wins, I'd bet on it.
There's a pandemic, the health care system is ready to collapse, much of the west coast has burned, there is nowhere for people to live there, soon families may be starving and the police will have to deal with riots at the food banks and complaints about homeless on the front lawn...
the last thing we needed right now is liberal people protesting against blue local governments to give Republicans the ammunition that they are incompetent, that they can't even keep their own cities policed and rogue cops prosecurted without major rebellions One of the really bizzarro phenomenon of ths year, actually, one for the history books, a perfect storm, when people went wack over police abuse and then started getting more guns and shooting each other after quietly being stuck in lockdown for weeks, started protesting against black Dem mayors especially without muttering any words against a madman supposed Republican helping kill thousands more of their own kind in hospitals every day. Tearing down statues in some kind of voodoo cleansing process as if that is going to turn a Dem mayor into the lefty of their dreams...
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 2:06am
Back to school time
https://youtu.be/ZW0DfsCzfq4
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 2:26am
The big story now is the tactic that was proposed to be used against the protesters.
Army National Guard major told Congress feds requested heat ray and stockpiled ammunition before clearing DC protest
https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/16/politics/federal-officials-heat-ray-ammunition-lafayette-square-protests/index.html
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 8:25am
I doubt that will cause much outrage except among professional protestors and the ACLU. Because people are used to the idea of giving a mulligan to the Secret Service protecting the president being able to do basically whatever the fuck they want. If a president, any president, wants to walk across the street, people in the way lose their civil rights for the time being. Is just the way it is, presidential lives are special. Deal with it. Needs to be litigated? Absolutely. A big story with the public? No way. They're like: why doncha just go and protest somewhere else, further away from where the president is?
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 12:11pm
My post
My support from the article
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 8:11am
You posted 4 times on this thread w/o mentioning unions - only on the 5th after I'd fished it out if your link did you start pushing it. Before it was Camden as that great example of defunding police, which we've been calling idiotic.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 9:08am
Camden decreased funding but kept a police department
Crime went down
I said shifting funding does not have to lead to increased crime
You brought up scab cops
I responded with comments about police unions.
Edit to add:
If Minneapolis police are holding back law enforcement, the city may be forced to mimic Camden. Otherwise, the police are saying they run the city.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 9:41am
But they didn't decrease funding
[note the big success you linked to is still more homicides than all but the previous year]
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 9:57am
WTF
Your numbers are from 2003-2013
In 2019, there were 25 homicides in Camden. One murder is too high, but there was a > 50% decrease
https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justice/articles/camden-sees-crime-drop-over-past-decade
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 10:31am
I'm using your link, your article.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 1:27pm
Yes, the numbers from 2003-2013 are from the article.
The article talks about how the change came about
Is 2019's 25 less than 2013's 57?
The newer article talks about what is happening now
You will use any subterfuge to win an argument. The numbers decreased after the change.
Edit to add:
You want to use old data that has been updated
Im willing to look at current data
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 2:01pm
Here's the newer data I see:
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 2:21pm
Neighboring city, Patterson, has twice the population, but a much lower budget for police. The Inquirer article verified the steady decrease in crime in Camden since 2013. Camden has little taxable income. Apparently, part of the problem is that with new unionization, police costs surged. The increased cost is not a big surprise. Unclear why the costs are greater than Patterson.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 2:52pm
Looking for data on how reunionization occurred.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 3:08pm
When did the new force unionize?
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 3:27pm
He lives there. Wrote for WaPo in June that most stories about the "defunding" and restructuring are all inaccurate B.S. Conclusion:
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 12:00pm
Me, I'm just hoping she's right and the whole gaslighting trend stops
I am starting to think the whole BLM phenom has been a sort of coronavirus fever, similar to Savonarola et. al. after the Black Death.
After all the cry that resounded in the gut with so many is: "I can breathe".
Ironically, the Reverend Al Sharpton's take has been very refreshing, basically reality-based: both bad police and rising black-on-black crime are a scourge on black people.
Which claims more bodies, though?
Cherry picking and promoting incidents to play up over other threats, that reinforce big bad bogeymen policemen fears,doesn't solve either problem. Just makes an easy scapegoat. Wisdom of age has gotten the Rev to see with blinders off.
Look, if you are going to have police, part of the job will be to exhibit "fearsomeness" while in the job and not human vulneralbility; Is the nature of the job. They know most people don't like cops. That's the way it's supposed to be. Part of what has been helpful to me out of all of this is to realize that, if we don't have those assholes, worse assholes will take over. It's all just a matter of having better quality assholes and in actuality, I would like to remind that it was looking like there was a lot of progress on that front in the last couple decades, we had astronomical reduction in crime like no one had ever dreamed of being possible.
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 4:03pm
AND also hello: for the most part, blacks have been integrated into U.S. police forces. So the simple answer of "systemic racism" cannot be the problem! Problems cannot be solved by misidentifying them. This conspiratorial and paranoid answer is simply incorrect and not reality based. The problem may indeed be that both black and white police profile for skin color, gender, behavior, and prior criminal records if available. Deal with that reality, not delusions of grand conspiracies.
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 4:13pm
Yes, exactly. We need people who are comfortable using violence to control and subdue violent people. We just have to find ways for the system to regulate the violence of the police so it doesn't spill over in situations where it's not needed or appropriate.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 4:14pm
Here's a great smart prosecution along those lines. This is rightly a felony charge against a bad cop precisely because of the over-the-top sadistic fear induction potential of what he did
The fact of the prosecution is: PROGRESS; JUSTICE; WISDOM.
Getting rid of all bad people within and outside the police department: not possible.
This story is not proof that the U.S. is going to hell on a handcart, just the opposite. The prosecutor is actually trying to de-escalate the bigger effect here. To use the story to gaslight with "it's an epidemic of racism!" is counter to progress here, to use the story as an example of how we are not tolerating idiotic police behavior is the way to help better everyone's situation.
Edit to add: These things do take time. As: we don't lynch police in this country. Until some "protesters" started trying to do it again these last couple of months.
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/16/2020 - 5:02pm
A reminder that Congress pays attention to what is published here.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 5:21am
My conclusion: Minneapolis city council members are mostly pandering morons without a spine, going this way and that with the wind, and many will lose re-election.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 12:16pm
to me, this looks like a blatant reach out to Biden along the lines of "we can work with you on this one", could be a win win:
he's not going anywhere, just got elected in 2018.
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/17/2020 - 6:35pm