MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Early success Noted In Sending Mental Health Workers Instead of Police
By rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 8:15am |It’s working in Eugene, Olympia, Denver: More cities are sending civilian responders, not police, on mental health calls
Up to 50% of fatal encounters with law enforcement involve someone with a mental illness, a 2016 study published in the American Journal of Preventative Medicine estimated. And nearly 1 in 4 people fatally shot by police since 2015 had a mental illness, including a disproportionate number of people of color, according to a Washington Post database of fatal shootings by on-duty officers.
There has been a growing consensus that armed officers are not the responders best-suited for mental health emergency calls after Daniel Prude, a 41-year-old Black man, died in police custody in Rochester, New York, in March 2020 as he was suffering a mental health crisis.
Instead, advocates say such calls should be treated as health crises rather than crimes. After George Floyd died in police custody in Minneapolis last May, support for diverting funding from police department to other social services grew in cities around the U.S., often referred to as the "defund the police" movement.
Nearly 8 in 10 voters support diverting 911 calls related to mental health and substance use to trained, non-police responders, according to a June survey by the Alliance for Safety and Justice.
In turn, a growing numbers of localities are exploring mental health emergency response programs that do not involve police officers. At least three are now operating civilian programs dispatched through 911, and many more are drafting or piloting programs.
A pilot program is being considered for Harlem
All programs are being monitored to make sure the mental health workers are not being put at risk
URL:
https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2021/04/05/george-floyd-daniel-prude-911-mental-health-response/6819744002/
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Comments
Can they be honest and distinguish mental illness from substance use to substance abuse and criminal behavior?
A guy whacked out on PCP diving down stairs is not having a "mental health crisis" - he's whacked out in a usually self-administered condition, and can frequently be more dangerous due to pain deadening and heightened self-assurance/aggressiveness. George Floyd seems like a freak, and if it wasn't a matter of him stealing 3 hours of work pay from the guy at the counter, maybe a mental health worker could have helped him with his opioid addiction problems rather than taking the time of 4 cops and an ambulance for 30-60 minutes (even if he hadn't died). But let's be clear - there are a lot of people not shoving fentanyl up their butt and smoking meth who don't get help from our society but need it. There are a lot of mentally ill not doing crazy self-inflicted shit who need more help as well. There are a lot of people of color who could use that help, but much of our money and addiction goes to stupid fuckers with drugs and guns, not to people with out of whack hormones it structural brain issues. Plus there were so many people shot in the last 1+ years with this new gun craze, but no one much cares about shooting victims unless they can scream about the police. So happy if the mental health worker stuff is effective, and there are indeed real "mental health issues" to call about, but I'm still concerned 1) that positive results will be over hyped/exaggerated, and 2) irresponsible people will suck up most of the resources, not the mentally ill and in need.
Maybe George Floyd was both a junkie and mentally ill. He exclaims to the officer, "Don't shoot! I just lost my Mom!" Except she died 2 years earlier. But he repearlts "Momma!" over and over throughout the ordeal, and i don't really believe he was talking about his girlfriend.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 9:33am
We are in the early stages of the programs
Cities will evaluate the data
They will be fact checked by universities and other organizations
George Floyd was likely hypoxic from being lynched while on the ground.
It is hard to decipher his thought process.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 11:16am
You're making unwarranted misleading excuses for him - why exactly?
Floyd was ranting this crazy shit from the moment the cops got to the car, before even touching him. Did you watch the full video?
https://youtu.be/0gQYMBALDXc
(he was acting real strange in the store as well - AA posted video yesterday)
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 11:25am
I saw someone interested in the topic suggest something the other day that stuck in my mind. He mentioned that mental illness was high in the underclass. And that since our treatment for mental illness seems not to have progressed much since what was practiced in the middle ages, and we are loathe to "lock them up", maybe the money for "social workers" to replace on police on these type of calls, while saving a (very) few lives, might be better applied to removing lead paint and other toxic materials like dangerous forms of mold in poor neighborhoods. That much still needs to be done on the latter front. And the whole society would benefit by having fewer mentally ill that cannot be "reformed" and cause their families and everyone that comes across them a lot of pain.
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 1:24pm
I'll go with the opinions of the police officers, EMTs, and firefighters testifying against Chauvin.
The dispatcher thought things were so wrong that she contacted her supervisor
A martial artist called the police on Chauvin.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 1:25pm
I wasn't commenting on the Chauvin trial but on the topic of your post.
But since you bring it up, I have said elsewhere that I don't see any reason to second guess the jury. They are hearing all the evidence and I am not. This is our system when it's possible that things have gone wrong, and it is working. It's certainly far better than, like, in Myamar right now, where people are being shot dead right and left by the cops with no recourse.
Things do go wrong in life. Sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes there are global pandemics that seem unfair and people all over the world react irrationally to one video, because it is some kind of metaphor for them about the unfairness in life. In any case, when unfairness happens, it is good when there is a system to make it less unfair.
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 1:38pm
The dispatcher thought things wrong because she's not used to seeing video, but in this case she had a live surveillance video - but she didn't even realize they'd tried putting Floyd in the squad car but he refused and asked to go on the grown.
Obviously Floyd passed out and died, so without doubt *something* went wrong, and even if Floyd od'd the police had responsibility to keep an eye on pulse, etc.
As AA noted, i expect the defense attorney to point out other sides to the story and the jury to evaluate and make a decision. I'm more interested in real types of evidence than one observer thinking Chauvin looked up at him with kind of a meaningful evil eye. Everyone keeps saying "4 officers", but afaik only 3 were on Floyd. So should we just go with the Twitter version, or what's actually on video/audio? On Twitter people are raging because Chauvin took off his video cam. In the real world we know it got thrashed off while trying to put Floyd in the car. In the real world all the officers have mitigating circumstances. The real question comes down to whether those circumstances were enough, whether they carried out their duty properly and according to procedure, were they alert & observant to procedure going badly and try to take corrective action, was waiting for the ambulance that amount of time as Floyd was fading a reasonable response, etc. The cops knew he'd had Covid (but maybe last year Long Covid damage on lungs wasn't as worrisome. The cops knew Floyd had been hooping fentanyl - did they take that into account when he was freaking out and losing consciousness?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 1:44pm
Your comment
The ER physician feels the cause of death was oxygen deprivation
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/05/derek-chauvin-trial/
Floyd was not fighting when he lost his pulse
Chauvin continued to keep his knee on Floyd's neck
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 1:54pm
Jesus Fucking Christ (hey, it's Easter...) - Floyd was od'ing on fentanyl and meth, had an adrenalin attack, had had Covid recently so maybe lung scarring/decreased capacity, apparently had liquid in his lungs, kept screaming for 6-8 minutes (including 4 before on the ground), plus had a knee pressed against his neck in some way, and kind of lying on his chest/a little towards his side...
*Which* of those factors was decisive for oxygen deprivation if not a combination? Which are the police responsible for causing, and which are the police responsible for monitoring and taking remedial action if going badly? As the ambulance guy noted, all officers can initiate CPR, so for example when Lang checks the pulse at (5 mins? 7 mins?) did he feel nothing? He asked Chauvin if they should put Floyd on his side - was he being too demure, giving way to Chauvin's decision when he should have shouted out emergency and taken charge?
Malcolm Gladwell's "Talking to Strangers" is a very insightful read for this. He notes cockpit chatter in Asia, a junior copilot deferring politely to a many-years-his-senior older pilot, and as they were circling suggesting in very obeisant language once or twice "perhaps maybe we could consider landing in a different place" WHEN THEY WERE FUCKING OUT OF FUEL!!! Another one was 2 pilots landing in the Philippines, had been there before, but they got confused both from a long tiring flight and some foul weather and some minor ground change, so instead of handling the instruments right they ran the plane into the side of a mountain. Perhaps these cops were thrown off a bit by the crowd (not threatening, but maybe more pushback than usual) combined with the weirdness of Floyd's behavior, which might have assured them "the crowd doesn't know what it's talking about", causing them to underestimate how little *they* understood the situation as well. Seriously, lots of things can combine to go wrong with very little effort. Which doesn't necessarily excuse 1 or more officers, or might give them manslaughter over murder 2. Are you curious about what happened, or just want to hold up your usual POV?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 2:18pm
The coroner will testify.
Edit to add:
CPR was not administered
Narcan was not given.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 2:44pm
I assumed by saying "all officers can initiate CPR" it highlighted the obvious detail that CPR was not initiated by the officers. Nor Narcan, if that was appropriate (some police have stopped Narcan due to Covid). And yes, the coroner will obviously testify, so we can stop playing Ouija Board with 911 dispatcher comments.
Gee, you're just a shitload of fun to discuss stuff with.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 2:50pm
You come with a host of "whataboutisms" then attack me for pointing out the civilian observers, the firefighter, the dispatcher, senior police officials, and the treating doctor.
Hilarious.
Oxygen deprivation was the cause of death
Chauvin refused to allow CPR, or the possibility of Narcan while Floyd still had a pulse.
Edit to add:
Minneapolis chief of police
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/04/05/us/derek-chauvin-trial
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 3:35pm
A self-ingested 3 1/2X lethal dose of Fentanyl is a "whataboutism"? Screaming "i can't breath" and refusing to go in the cop car is a "whataboutism"? Dude, you just want them to declare Chauvin guilty, nothing else.
I've said before - i just need to hear where Chauvin et al varied from procedure, did not live up to requirements when suspect in their remand. Like the guy police put in the back of a van and slung around - he was under their control, and they abused him and mistreated him.
Im partially skeptical of the police chief, not sure why, but that doesn't mean I'll ignore his testimony. Even the cops seemed to recognize Floyd was fading - why did they persist? Why did they think nothing in their playbook? Yes, pulse stopped - did Lang acknowledge that? Did Chauvin realize? Yes, did they have Narcan is a valid question, since they obviously weren't protecting from Covid (and Floyd almost certainly wasn't infectious). While the initial video showed police training using the knee on neck (and it's not as if Chauvin is improvising), what else is included in the procedure? I'm skeptical the "that move is not allowed" claim. But what happened?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 04/05/2021 - 5:45pm
Chauvin supervisor notes force should be let up once suspect is subdued (though seems to not have problem with using knee itself)
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/01/us/george-floyd-derek-chauvin-trial-d...
Police chief then police trainer on use if force
What i don't see from Blackwell are videos or pictures from training that show what they train, and Chauvin's supervisor and the police chief seems to contradict her in accepting knee as restraint (and frankly it seems absurd to think that arms are the only allowed restraint, seeing as they're much less effective due to weight pressure for someone seriously resisting arrest and dangerous (i.e. worse than Chauvin).
Again the initial video some Philly career police investigator showed training if pretty much exactly this position, so reconciling when/if it had gone into disuse is important.
(Nonetheless Chauvin's & others' obligation to render aid seems heading for manslaughter, considering the EM observation that Chauvin appeared dead when he drove up.)
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/05/us/derek-chauvin-trial-george-floyd-d...
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/06/2021 - 1:40am
I would suggest to refocus on the charges. this one in particular
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/06/2021 - 1:58am
I think that's what I'm doing (though I hadn't read this in particular).
I think everything Chauvin & co. did up to 4:30-5 mins of Floyd on the ground is easily justified.
Those next 4 1/2 minutes become very problematic. But I'm of course not a lawyer,
while allowances for police officers may let Chauvin off just because they're significantly more lenient -
Qualified Immunity et al. (though that could be on appeal, not from the jury trial).
It's still difficult to assess Chauvin using "deadly force" in the nature of gunshots or a Mike Brown-style chokehold.
I also still don't know the assessment of how hard Chauvin's knee was pressing over those minutes, and where it was pressing (& the videos make it hard to recognize just how Floyd's chest cavity was positioned, and the relevant danger in that - without the knee, we'd probably not care if Floyd were down flat 20 minutes, though in cases where he'd been screaming about can't breath before going down, that's probably not reasonable as well).
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/06/2021 - 3:15am