MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Are Taliban Just the Proud Boys of Afghanistan?
By NCD on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 9:58am |'An account linked to the Proud Boys expressed respect for the way the Taliban “took back their national religion as law, and executed dissenters.”.... 'Seeing the images of pickups full of armed angry young men cruising through Kabul with their guns and flags, looked exactly like the domestic terrorists right here at home.'
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/opinion/alt-right-taliban.html#commentsContainer
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I found this to be a pretty useless op-ed, maybe her worst ever, lazy August submission? Actually dangerously misleading comparisons and equivalencies unless the only point of it is the DOH! one that extremists can be dangerous
Right off I think of all the right-wing Christians who are deathly afraid of sharia and hate all Muslims. Could probably a direct Michelle Malkin quote on that but not going to bother to look.
Boogaloo Bois are NOT at all exclusively right wingers, they include plenty of lefties in their ranks, they are extreme libertarians of the armed variety with their main raison d'etre the hatred of cops and related authorities, especially of the federal variety.
Proud Boys are anti-p.c. culture warriors, who enjoy playing old timey patriarchy games, pretty simple minded and hard to see them ever organizing anything very serious, they are cannon fodder sitting around waiting for someone to give them cues. Yes, like Hitler youth, they have to have a Hitler to tell them what to do and where to go. It was Trump for a while but now he's become wimpy, while they wait for the next guy, they'll play street-fighting games for viral social media attention with some select "antifa" groups who show up specifically to do same. (I found recent news that the LAPD decided to stop wasting their time and energy interfering with the pre-planned video games or kabuki on the street an intriguing choice: let the spoiled brats maim each other along with the freelance "media" that feed them. Might actually work if properly contained to the parties involved, their parents might actually do something that alters their behavior.)
Sincere Taliban, on the other hand, are SERIOUS passionate fundamentalist believing fighters for their cause who have proven themselves to have staying power over decades, even when imprisoned which many of them recently were. And fueled by madrassah education from others with serious agenda as well. You don't become a suicide bomber lightly. Comes to mind Japanese fascists could inspire some of those, but German not so much...it has to be real deep belief
Throwing in incels here, PUHLEEZ...
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 12:30pm
The flaws in hunan nature, and iniquities of cults and radical political movements, be they the Taliban, Trump cultists like the Proud Boys, the Red Guards, the White Knights of Camelia/KKK, all have the same foundation:
- belief they represent a righteous cause and the truth
- sanction violence against any and all opposition, which they consider as evil
- opposition to democracy and the rights of nonbelievers
- assert that they have the legitimate right to unaccountable power
by NCD on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 4:29pm
Why are you comparing these little factions with the Taliban, the major political force in the country? The Taliban has more power and respect than labor in the UK, over the course of 20+ years, despite our military push to remove them. Don't like it? Pull out them famous "hearts and minds".
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 4:51pm
I dunno if the Taliban are that beloved by the majority of the Afghan population, that remains to be proven to me. For one reason among others: we don't have accurate polls of the rural population, they may be seen more as bullies there rather than "popular".
But to me this op-ed and NCD are like saying Proud Boys and Hezbollah are remarkably alike.
No they are not.
I don't think anyone with brains will see anything but stupid ridiculous spin in saying that, to the point of counterproductivity. Taliban and Hezbollah are alike. And so far Proud Boys and incels and marching Pikachu are alike.
Now ISIS would be a different matter, because we do have evidence that lots of young idiotic males, including those from the west, have joined ISIS because they thought the online room discussions cool and the chance to carry a gun and threaten and maybe even kill people, real life video style.
Alert me next time a Proud Boy initiates a suicide bombing of a large public gathering planned by a higher-up Proud Boy and maybe I'll change my mind.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 7:39pm
p.s. Comes to mind it would even strike me as ridiculous to compare Proud Boys to MS-13, the latter are light years ahead of them and once again make them look like idiotic kids playing a game that often has consequences they do not foresee. (All fun and games until an uncontrollable vigilante mob forms and Capitol Police officers nearly get beaten to death)
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 7:53pm
No offense, but Taliban don't have to prove fuckall to you or me - they won. Over and over. Yeah we can do our homework to see how good or bad they are in our eyes, but for their culture they rule, get used to it. And while i cast aspersions on Lulu's comment about evil deeds or something, the increasing civilian deaths each year from us and our coalition partners don't even give us a moral edge - we do suck despite good intentions - the enemy *is* partly us. The Afghan public in general trusts them over us & our 'tastes great' buddies. Next phase, let's see how the Taliban do (and research how they've actually been doing these last 5 years. Again, they're using social media - they've probably modernized elsewhere, adjusted tactics, grown up/moderner, maybe even nicer to women...)
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 8:00pm
The Middle East in general, and the madrassa indoctrinated Jihadists who flock to the Taliban, hold a unique place on the scale of world fanaticism.
74 million American voters voted for the guy who fired up and p!edged to join a crowd to violenly overturn an election. After he filed over 55 frivolous lawsuits with the same intent. The majority of the 74 million are still his disciples, and believe everything he says.
His Republican acolytes in 18 states are working to rig the next election. His mob members have been arrested, charged and convicted of schemes to kidnap and threaten election officials.
The few Republicans who oppose Trump have been stripped of Party positions. The fealty to the leader, intolerance and quest for unaccountable undemocratic power is as extreme for our historical norms as Taliban rule is for the norms of most majority Muslim nations today.
by NCD on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 8:58pm
The Alt Right matches up more with the politics seen in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Black-Wind-White-Snow-Nationalism/dp/0300226454
Islam is another level. Like progressives, Muslim regimes understand how to control history and the perceptions of it. They appeal to young men the way our Alt Right does. It's an ideology that maintained control of much of the world when the West was in its supposed "dark ages." Unlike the politics of a democracy, Islamists do not leave much unattended for another party to pick up. You're either with them or gone.
They maybe know some things that we have no idea of.
by Orion on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 9:10pm
Trumpism's a 5-year phenomenon, and it involves more blowhard posing than actual deeds, even though Jan 6 and gutting government in various ways are serious. We'll see where it goes, but the majority voted it out in a democratic system.
The emulations of hard core Islam are not so unique, even though we might say the majority of Islamic states are a bit more tolerant - though have to distinguish Pacific/SE Asian Islam, French-influenced North African-Levant Islam and then both Turkic/Mongol Islam and heartland Arabian peninsula & surroundings.
Wahabbism, the Iranian revolutionary and ISIS takes on Islam are certainly fanatical enough as a religiously-driven fervor, though they also signify 3 strains: traditional Muslim monarchy/Caliphate, populist liberation theology (Khomeini like Lenin driving the Revolution from exile), and an insurgent invasive/occupational Islam closer to Pol Pot's terror tactics. In fact it might be useful to compare to the different approaches to Communism/socialism over the last century as a useful but over simple analogy: Sweden being Malaysia, China being Saudis, Cambodia being ISIS, Russia being part Al Qaeda nation-state (expansionist Prussians?) part forward-looking industrial power (say Saddam-led Iraq?).
Staying power is one of the criteria, fanaticism is another, popularity/persuasion vs overwhelming & crushing is another, legacy political/religious theory-driven vs break all rules transformation... along with base normal political systems (Syria?) with external influencers (Russia?). Note the many international fingers in the central Mideast pie, whereas Pakistan or Algeria are less a melange - partly due to oil, partly centralized/near location, tied to Russia's famous warm water port & previously the Suez Canal and prior Spice trade.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 08/29/2021 - 1:16am
This is not the end of Republican Trumpian antidemocratic radicalism, lies and violence. Not even the beginning of the end, or the end of the beginning. Republicans are working to revise voter eligibility, election certification law, legalize vote counting chicanery and ballot disqualification...... and they have packed the courts to ensure the GOP total unaccountable minority power in 2024 and for a decade or more onward. They are likely to have control, or obstruction capability, in all 3 branches of government most of coming cyc!es. They will never win a majority of votes nationally again, but that doesn't matter.
The divided, hesitant Democratic Party is a dead man walking if they don't pass a new voting rights Bill, which they show no urgency or signs they will.
As to the 2020 vote, thanks to the slave state pandering Electoral College: link
"....if Trump had managed to get those 45,000 votes (in AZ GA, and WI) , he would have won 37 more electoral votes, making the electoral college a 269-to-269 tie. Under the Constitution, the election would have then been decided by the House of Representatives, with each state delegation getting just one vote. Even though Democrats have a majority in the House, more state delegations have Republican majorities...."
by NCD on Sun, 08/29/2021 - 12:36pm
When I saw a video of Taliban fighters dancing, I did joke with a friend that this looks like a kindred spirit or two of the Qanon Shaman.
However, I remember the 2000s, when there were all sorts of virue signalers who said that fear of Islamic terrorism was overblown and really fear of an exotic culture that white people just didn't understand. So which one is it?
In my personal view, there might be some similarities in the sort of people who attract to such things but there is a terrifying strength and power to Islam as a religion that may have no analogy in our world. Islam exists as a loosely connected system across the world that exists independent of nation states - it's [maybe] why attempts to force that concept on them doesn't really seem to work. Any analysis of the Muslim world coming from someone not from there should likely be precipitated with "maybe."
by Orion on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 8:21pm
an aside: when I first saw the Qanon shaman, I thought: what the heck did he just stumble back from being lost in the woods after a Robert Bly he-man gathering in early 1990? But then his mummy started complaining for him that the non-organic food in jail upset his delicate stomach and I thought: momma's boy is no Robert Bly acolyte.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 9:01pm
They may be intentionally mocking us and people are mistaking it for resemblance:
by Orion on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 9:07pm
Seriously interesting because in the previous incarnation of Taliban rule over Afghanistan, Mullah Omar would never allow such physical manifestation of joy. Is much more reflective of arch enemy Shia Islam which has a lot of emotional components, and even
godallah forbid, mystical Sufi Islam's whirling dervishes. which would be more than haram...by artappraiser on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 9:12pm
It's probably not as defined as all that. When people want to control other people, they make it up as they go along and just use the manual to validate it.
by Orion on Sat, 08/28/2021 - 11:09pm
I disagree, it was very starkly defined under Mullar Omar, maybe as never before, a preference hard ascetic life without sensual distractions or any kind of joy (even kite flying was banned) dedicated to allah much like a monk or nun living in a cloister in the middle ages. The country was under the most extreme version of Sunni Islam that was possible, including punishments (like: cut off hand for stealing. Yes people in power could get away with things like, underage boy sex toys, but that happens in almost all cloistered societies)
In the rural areas of Pakistan where people are not well-educated, the difference between Sunni and Shia culture can still get you not just harassed but attacked beaten or raped or even "lynched". Shia are considered kafir, sworn enemies, bound for eternal hellfire.
It is the main illogical reason Saudi Arabia and Iran mistrust and hate each other so much.
And the difference is quite stark theologically. To compare with Christianity, in the mideast and SE Asia Shia is much more like the Roman Catholic church with lots of mysticism, rituals with passion and much more sensuality, and Sunni is like strict Protestantism with all that stripped out.
Much evidence here that in Afghanistan as per interviews Jan. 2019 through April 2020 that though the rank-and-file Taliban have changed some they haven't changed at lot of beliefs since Omar's day, including the intent to ban ALL music (too sensual and arousing, I presume) and they plan to ban any way people can access it including smartphones, MP3'S and televisions. They are wisely phasing this in slowly. Clearly, they are a LOT more conservative than the Sunni virtue police in Saudi Arabia. Not predicting it's going to work out, but it is clearly the intent.
(Why do you think so many people with a knowledge of western life want to leave via the airport with just the clothes on their back? It's not that they fear being punished for what the did in the past but that they fear they will have to go back to that old Taliban life and if they don't they will be punished for it. Not to mention most possessions that give joy will be taken eventually anyway. I think I've even read that much, more than a few Taliban leaders say they will forgive the past as long as you follow the rules from now on.)
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/29/2021 - 12:37am
Apparently not the brightest bulbs on the block except for trying to create victimology narratives out of every situation, that they are good at:
I see little difference from 17-yr-old Chicago gang thugs playing with their guns to prove their manhood and proving only that in ending up shooting a lot of unintended targets that they have little experience with guns.
to my point:
by artappraiser on Sun, 09/05/2021 - 1:48pm
So often these right wing gangs are basically all "co-splay", not as dangerous as like, Chicago gangs, because they stop short of acting out:
It's like they need the psychology of a violent mob, like on Jan. 6, to inspire them to act out for real. Otherwise, they are sissies, afraid of really doing what they dream about.
The law enforcement solution in a society that does not relish punishing thought crime: keep violent mobs from forming! That means tough policing of demonstrations, of course. Things like kettling when large crowds start to get unruly, requiring announcement of or even licensing for city demonstrations so enough cops can be assigned, etc.
It's a much more gnarly problem to solve gun crime by city gangs and lately they cause much much more maiming and death.
Let's make it simple: how many fear driving past a Proud Boy vs. antifa demonstration and how many fear driving now in certain neighborhoods in Chicago and the Bronx? Fear of "Proud Boys" is a joke. They are not like Taliban and they are certainly not at all like ISIS. They also have fear that Chicago gang types and rappers do not exhibit.
Not a single one has shown so far that they have the serious drive of Timothy McVeigh, who WAS A LONER and didn't do Co-Splay militant
by artappraiser on Sun, 09/05/2021 - 2:07pm
to point:
by artappraiser on Sun, 09/05/2021 - 2:28pm
The Taliban have been methodical in their resistance to the European and U.S. attempts to set up a viable government to replace them. The acts of terror on the military were not gestures of protest but pressure campaigns on the personel to walk a very thin line. It is similar to how drug cartels take over government functions in other places. You won't necessarily be killed but you could be at any time.
The collapse of the govenrment at first contact with the Taliban shows that the method worked.
The excuberance of angry young men is the blood of many a movement. It is the older dudes who know how to scare people that form strategies.
by moat on Sun, 09/05/2021 - 5:27pm
and, ta-dah (you just reminded me) what you say goes to Omar Wasow's point here " The Rise of Brazil's Neo-Pentecostal Narco-Militia. Taliban’s mix of religious fundamentalism and opium trade (~$400M annually in 2016) reminds me of this remarkable article about “the unification of drug trafficking factions, paramilitary forces and neo-Pentecostal churches, waging a ‘holy war’” in Brazil.
by artappraiser on Sun, 09/05/2021 - 6:56pm