The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
    Michael Maiello's picture

    It's A Hard Knock Life (For Cops)

    Today, David Brooks gives us the requisite "police officers have hard jobs" column.  Whenever we discuss police brutality, somebody says this and in the most recent discussions, it's been said quite often,  Police officers have hard jobs.  Very few of us non-police officers envy their professions.  It has few reliable perks.  You can use a siren to run red lights.  If you start young enough you can retire young with a pension and take some security related job so that you pull double income for another couple of decades.  The drawbacks are obvious and enumerated by Brooks: you risk your personal safety, you see things that most of us would prefer never to see.  There are times when you will do your job really well but will be treated with contempt. A lot of the moments that aren't dangerous or exciting are tedious.

    The thing is, we get it.

    We don't need David Brooks or anyone, for that matter, telling us how hard it is to be a police officer.  That knowledge is embedded in our culture and our legal system.  People so well understand how difficult and dangerous the job is that they have extended benefit of the doubt beyond its reasonable boundaries.  Were Mike Brown or Eric Garner killed by other civilians, the grand juries would have indicted the killers.  Cop-wannabe George Zimmerman stood trial.  In the case of an accused police officer, we have good evidence that the bar to even indict is much higher than it would be for anybody else.

    Some of this might be that prosecutors and police work closely together and so prosecutors can subtly throw the match when bringing an officer in front of a grand jury.  That's probably the case.  But the job is certainly made easier by the fact that people who serve on juries, and people in general, tend to sympathize with police officers.

    These are also extreme cases.  When it comes down to more mundane things like Stop and Frisk, citizens have tended to give the police the benefit of the doubt as well.  If you have a minor issue with how you were treated by a police officer you have basically no recourse. You can't talk to a supervisor.  Most civilian review boards have no power.  Most courts sympathize with police officers more than they do civilian complainants.  Heck, the Supreme Court sympathizes with police officers more than they do civilian complainants.

    Heck, Brooks even favorably quotes George Kelling, the criminologist who co-authored the original "Broken Windows" policing article where he dismisses some of the outright illegal and unconstitutional actions of the police officer he is shadowing as being reasonable infractions of people's rights in favor of civic order.  The whole intellectual edifice of modern policing is so sympathetic to the challenges of the job that it actually sets stated rules, including constitutional rights, aside as of secondary importance.

    I don't think the answer here, by the way, is to stop sympathizing with the difficulties police officers face.  But we could start expressing it in different ways.  We have have greater police accountability in both major and minor cases and more civilian authority over the police rather than having it the other way around.  In recognition that these are difficult jobs, we could pay them more, work them less and let them retire earlier -- this might even help to increase the quality of recruits because the best way to help the police deal with the inherent difficulties of their job is to have better police officers in the first place. 

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    Comments

    Most occupations would have better recruits to choose from if they offered better pay, less work and earlier retirement. But would they really be better, or just more plentiful?

    Of course police officers have an inherently dangerous job, and there's no doubt that society requires that we have them. We need them. Yet, the qualifications are relatively low -- instead of requiring higher and continuing education, intensive training and regular psychological reviews, we accept a bare minimum from the people to whom we give maximum authority. It's the officers on the street who make the biggest difference, good or bad. But the ones with the best qualifications and experience are usually behind a desk due to a higher rank. It seems backwards ... shouldn't the officer with the most public interaction - not to mention the most to lose - be the most prepared?


    Playing devil's advocate here, but someone's got speak up for poor maligned David Brooks. (It's a hard knock life for pseudo-conservative NYT columnists.)

    That it's tough to be a cop is, I think, largely irrelevant. Police work is not the only tough job job. What sets cops apart, imo, is that their work puts them at risk of criminal prosecution. Most people don't risk jail time if they fuck up at work, not even racist scumbags. They can be fired or sued, but criminal charges generally require a deliberate offense like embezzlement. In a hospital or motor vehicle, where errors can kill, negligent doctors and drivers may face civil litigation but almost never criminal charges. By contrast, if a cop overreacts--for racist reasons or any other--and kills an unarmed person, he can go to jail for it.

    That seems unfair to me. I believe that police departments should have no tolerance for disproportionate violence or prejudice. Abusive and/or racist cops should be fired and sued. But I do think that the bar for indicting a police officer who kills someone in the line of duty should be very high, as high as it would be for other types of workers to be charged with criminal negligence or other felonies.


    How would you rate the height of the bar at the moment, though?  I'm not sure I disagree that the bar should be high.  Do you think it's too high now or just about right (accepting that it's different heights in different parts of the country)?


    I don't know about the bar's height in general, but I'm not convinced that the bar has been met in the Fergusen and Staten Island. I think the shootings were egregious, that race prejudice played a role, that the victims families should sue the police departments and/or the cops themselves, and that police behavior and attitudes must be reformed across the country, but I'm not persuaded that these cops should be criminally prosecuted.

    Maybe that's stronger than I want to put it. I'm not sure that they should not have been indicted either, but I do think there are good reasons for not putting these cops on trial despite the killings.


    Regarding the lawsuits, I definitely want to see these. I was a juror on a case where the plaintiff (the deceased's estate) was suing four cops, and we found for the plaintiff against one cop (the one who actually did the shooting) for $5 million. Deciding that he was culpable was quick, the only thing that slowed up jury deliberations was determining a figure, which is obviously not an easy thing to do.

    What makes lawsuits so different in these cases, other than the different standard (which I think is actually similar to the standard for a grand jury, but I'd love to hear expert opinions on that) is that the plaintiff's lawyer isn't going to throw the case just because it's a cop (unlike a prosecutor which depends on cops for other cases).


    In Staten Island, a chokehold that went against department policy was applied for suspected sale of loose cigarettes. Charging the officer would seem to meet a relatively low bar.


    To consider Michael's original analogy, doctors can be charged with criminal negligence, so why not cops?


    I take a much more hardline about deaths like Garner's and Brown's I see them as part and parcel of legal system assaults on minority communities.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/10/criminal-justice-ohio_n_6296880...

    The NYPD paid out $22 million in lawsuits in 2011 and that did not prevent the homicide of Eric Garner. I don't think anything short of police officers going to jail will solve anything.

    http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20120829/new-york-city/city-shells-out-2...

     


    I absolutely agree with you that the system needs fixing, but I don't see how sending a few cops to jail will achieve that.


    I don't see any real stimulus to change policing unless there are serious consequences. There were 41 shots fired at unarmed Amadou Diallo. The jury acquitted the officers. If police were not held accountable for killing the wrong guy, why would any officer feel the need to change?

    If the argument is that Wall Street won't change because nobody went to jail, the same holds for the police and the CIA.


    I didn't say that there should be accountability. I only argued against criminal prosecution (or rather that there should be a very high bar for criminal charges).

    As with any deterrent, the greatest effect is not the size of penalty but the risk of getting caught. If police departments reliably enforce penalties for excessive force--regardless of whether the victim dies--it will be a much more effective deterrent than some token cops going to jail.

    The same thing goes for the bankers, incidentally. Throwing some bankers in jail may satisfy for the public's desire for justice, but it won't protect us from the next financial crisis. To deter dangerous banking practices, we needs consistent enforcement of financial regulations, not a few show trials.


    You may be correct. So far we have seen little evidence that any level of enforcement will happen.


    Not on it's own, no. That's why the demonstrations in Ferguson, NYC, and elsewhere are important--regardless of the grand jury process. The explosion of outrage draws attention to the problem and puts pressure on the police departments and city governments. It doesn't always work, but it can work. The Rodney King riots, for example, drew attention to racism in the LAPD and prompted serious reforms.


    And served as the basis for my favorite Sublime song.


    If a black guy had written a column as wishy washy and as little researched as this he would have been handcuffed and possibly waterboarded.

    Recent data show that there are relatively small numbers of cops who turn in most of the "resisting arrest" reports in NYPD. Five percent of cops generate 40% of arrest resisters. Sixty percent don't have any. Brooks uses sources as far back as 2000 and doesn't mention the skewed numbers for the 5% which were published recently.

    Thus the entire column---i.e., "police forces" is silly. Concentrate on the 5% and at least point us toward an understanding of that segment first.

    I would bet a Christmas Starbucks latte that the Garner cop is in that 5% segment. These are logically the interactions which can turn deadly. Why don't we start there  

     


    Ouch.  I get your point, but... ouch!

    You are right, of course, about the minority of cops being responsible for the majority of escalated situations and... those cops probably tend to stay on the job and get promoted because of their exemplary conduct during those high stress situations.  There's a whole feedback loop at work.

    The problem is, when we deal with it as a society, the majority of our fellow citizens don't see it that way... they see "police" and think, "good guys," and the debate kind of ends.


    Silly guy, I was referring to column by Mr. Milktoast of NYT, not present company.  


    Ah!  I was all like... "What's into Oxy?  Next time, I'll research."

    Man, you can't just yell "milquetoast honkey" in a crowded room!


    That is the nicest thing I have heard Brooks called.  Over at Kos they don't mince words when it comes to Brooks. 


    the majority of our fellow citizens don't see it that way... they see "police" and think, "good guys,"

    So when does the majority get to have the conversation about whose going to pay for all the extra police hours not budgeted for and the ancillary costs involved in keeping the peace, during these protests?

    Is it going to come out of the budgets of, Education?  Parks and Recreation?  Sewer and roads? Mental Health? 

    Someone has to pay? Should it be the minority?


    If it is the 5%  Don't confront them on the street. 

    Do whatever they ask. "Yes officer" ...... Fear them 

    7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.


    WTF?


    Yes, fear WTF.


    It always boggles my mind when people miss the fact that Jesus was being ironic in this speech.


    Promoting peace and tranquility.  Love 

    I don't see ironic, I see order and arrangement, meekness, submissiveness, qualities Jesus wanted his followers to observe.  

    Romans 13

    Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

    Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

    works of darkness are dissuaded from, which are contrary to temperance and sobriety, as rioting, and drunkenness; and to chastity, as chambering: and wantonness; and to peace and concord, as strife and envying, 


    qualities Jesus wanted his followers to observe

    When ever I read or hear anyone, anyone at all, telling other people what god or jesus wants them to do I always hear them saying what they want people to do. Whether its Pat Robertson, the westboro church, or resistance. I don't think anyone has a clue what god or jesus wants and anyone can find some quote in the bible to back up anything they want to tell other people what to do.

    My point of view is that printing the bible lowered the value of the blank sheets of paper used in the printing. But hell, I can do it too. Jesus doesn't want submissiveness. He wants us to drive the money changers, buyers and sellers out of the temple. Jesus wants a good riot now and then.


    First off I was responding to Erica who raised the name of Jesus 

    Most everyone knows the account of Jesus being falsely accused of crimes, and how he taught his disciples to never resist arrest. 

    2nd:  Comparing me to Westboro Baptist or Pat Robertson  as though to insult me? 

    I can assure you it doesn't; for first I'd have to respect your opinion and I don't. 

    Keep writing though, someday you'll write something intelligent concerning spiritual matters.


    Resistance, back when I was studying for the ministry I thought it was the job of a Christian to witness.

    What you have just done is trade sarcasm for perceived insult. Taking Jesus' words literally, He would not have done so.

    Haven't you just proven Kat's point that anything goes?

    Maybe the idea of witnessing is now passe.


    He would have called them vipers?

    When I point out scriptures, it is intended only as presenting a spiritual viewpoint to counter only hearing from the highly opinionated ones at Dagblog, who present a fleshly view of  things.

    The letters of Paul and others, speak for themselves just as well as some of the most opinionated here.  But some would try to silence them.

    ​There is no ministry here, no follow up discussions to search the heart. 

    I enjoy pointing out the useless philosophies of men in contrast to the opinions of the apostles and the wisdom they offer . 

    I  present my understanding of the scriptures, as it applies to dealing with the troubles we face today, because it is clear, the solutions being offered by men, have proven useless.

    With an abundance of opinions and viewpoints (spiritual and fleshly) people can decide their own paths. Unless members of one viewpoint control the dialog?  

    NOW would you look at the insults of others towards me and if I respond you conclude they are forgiven and I am not? 

    What you have just done is trade sarcasm for perceived insult.

    Perceived by you?

    If you could realize this is just a continuation of insults by this individual. who I have done all I can to resist engaging in conversation.

    “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” 
    ― Eleanor RooseveltThis is My Story

    For I haven't the time to go back and find writings, about his contempt of me to show you intentions. 

    Did you speak up in my prior encounters with this individual, for I must have missed it 

    Even as John, a close a friend of Jesus' did not appreciate that  Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea  did not speak up against the lies directed against Jesus.

    PS  I suspect another trouble maker with more lies, will come forth shortly?  


    Didn't know of any history and previous attempts to resist engaging. I won't butt in again.


    I was surprised to see that when you did "butt in" (your words) , it was focused towards my conduct and NEVER theirs.

    Maybe you too figured, it was easier to control and trying to restrain from acting badly, those who respect the authority / law?  

    I never said I was perfect; but I have learned a valuable lesson.

    Resisting the temptation of becoming offended is a hard thing to do and it does cloud judgment. 

    A temptation that is probably a leading contributor in the death of many? 


    I know you don't want to get in the middle of this, so I will make a brief statement and leave you alone. I make no apologies for challenging Resistance's arguments. He likes to give Scripture snippets as if that ends the discussion. There are many things in the Bible like stoning s disobediant child that no one considers the true message of the Bible. When he overlooks Scripture that counter his statements about slavery, the poor, and the treatment of immigrants, I will respond. His message of a religion that does nothing in the face of injustice seems to fit in with the warning that faith without works is dead. Resistance is free to his interpretation of Scripture. He has to be open to criticism of his views.


    Double post


    as though to insult me? 

    I can assure you it doesn't; for first I'd have to respect your opinion and I don't. 

     In every dialog we have that thought is always in my mind. And people thought we'd never find an area where we agree.

    Jesus had a special purpose achieved by being arrested and killed. His path for us was different. Jesus came down to specifically tell me that. God would have come but jesus was sitting on the right hand of his father and god so loved his son he didn't want to disturb him by pulling his right hand out from under him. We are to struggle, resist and fight even with the members of our own household.  As he said in his instructions to his disciples.

    "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35"For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;


    I am always amazed by people who confuse Authority for the person rather than the position. One can respect the office, but not the person. I respect the Presidency, I did not respect GW Bush. I wished him no harm, but I vocally disagreed with many of his policies. My actions did not challenge the Authority of the President. My actions did challenge GW Bush.

    Confusion about Authority led to the very unchristian position that a wife abused by her husband  was Biblically obligated to remain with her abuser. This viewpoint was an example of man's misinterpretation of Scripture.

    Respect for Authority has been used by some to excuse slavery as practiced in the United States. This again represents respecting Authority to other not worthy of respect. There was nothing in the abusive, high death rate work condition, single race-based, rape tolerating abomination practiced in the United States. There was no Authority given to United States slavery. 

    The Presidency is a position of Authority, but Presidents can be removed from office by Impeachment. Authority can be challenged. In our form of government, it is imperative that citizens make their feelings about different issues known, if the people are not vocal about their wises, we run the risk of being governed by a select group of elites.There is Authority in a given position, the person in the position may overstep his/ her Authority. When they overstep, they can be challenged by the people. There can be recall elections. In Europe and countries like Israel, there can be a call for elections when a governing coalition falls apart.

    In 1 Samuel we see that Saul is appointed King but rapidly loses his Authority because he does not follow rules. Subjects had so little respect for Saul that they left his presence. The Scripture notes that the problem was with Saul rather than his subjects. Saul was removed from office. People can show their displeasure with those in a position of Authority. The person can abuse the position.

    Eric Bonhoffer faced internal question when he saw other Christians falling into line with the abuse of Jews and others under Hitler. Many Christians went so far as to identify the authority of the government with being a good Christian. Similarly, churches split in the United States over the non-biblical form of slavery. The Southern Baptists went so far that even after the Civil War, they supported Jim Crow and separate but equal laws. They did this despite the Bible stating that we are all equal in God's eyes. They defied Constitutional law in many cases. Authority was abused.

    We respect the Authority as a position. The people who occupy the office are given respect when respect is due and honor when honor is due. We are not obligated to honor Jefferson Davis, George Wallace, etc. Davis attacked the United States. Wallace defied a Court order. They abused Authority.

    Respect the position. Look at the actions of the person in the position. Saul was removed from short order. The Founding Fathers demanded that citizens were obligated to be informed so they could challenge those in government. People who bow to whatever the Authority does are in error. They confuse the person with the position. Therein lies disaster.


    Here is Thomas Jefferson


    "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then." -- Thomas Jefferson - (1743-1826), US Founding Father, drafted the Declaration of Independence, 3rd US President Source: letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787; reproduced in Thomas Jefferson, Writings (The Library of America, 1984), p. 889-890
     

    Standing on the sidelines is taking a position

     

    "He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it" - Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968), US civil rights leader


    The colonies came together after rejecting a KING. The country rejected the King again in 1812.


    Yup. Totally being ironic. Jesus was the Chris Rock of his time, except more so, and with a death wish.


    He had no death wish.

    If you understood the necessity of his ransom you wouldn't be saying that.

    The landlord makes the rules.

    Had Adam obeyed the command, there wouldn't have been a need for a ransom.

    I didn't make the law and if you disagree........ Tough.


    Resistance, most of the time I don't even respond to you anymore, because our views are so far apart and I find your self-righteous attitude annoying. But just this once...

    Yes, you're darn right I disagree. You've conveniently got the whole story of Jesus set up so that Jesus was killed because he was the son of God, and in turn there could be a way for "Christians" to get ransomed into heaven if they did all the right things. (Or in some cases, merely said all the right things.) In your version of the story, Jesus' time on Earth only exists so that he can mouth some platitudes that reinforce your very selective view of what was important in the Old Testament and then get on with dying like he was supposed to. And your "landlord makes the rules" line is very convenient too, because your "landlord" makes all the rules that you think are the right ones, and those are the rules that you follow, ignoring huge swathes of the rest of what's in the Bible and most of what's in the New Testament.

    But here is the reality. Jesus was not killed because of the kind of supernatural being he was. He was killed--in the human world, by other humans--because of the kind of man he was. THAT's what justifies his supernatural status--his willingness to live beyond the rules of the world in a way that was better, kinder and ultimately made more sense. It was not his pre-existing Goddyness that got him killed, despite your conveniently warped view of the tale that says otherwise.

    Your view manages to miss the whole point of the New Testament.

    And by the way, Jesus was a very ironic guy. His "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God what is God's" does not mean what you think it means. I'd stake my Notre Dame degree, not to mention my salvation, on it.

    Good day to you, sir.


    Proving once again, people can brag about their  degrees and yet have no clue of why Jesus was put to death.

    It started long before Jesus was born,  

    You've conveniently got the whole story of Jesus set up so that Jesus was killed because he was the son of God,

    I didn't conveniently set any thing up 

    This was Gods plan, after Adam sinned and passed this on to his offspring  

    Prophecy 

    Genesis 3:15

    15  I will put enmity between you and the woman,

    and between your offspring1 and gher offspring;

    hhe shall bruise your head,

    and you shall bruise his heel.”

    You ignore this was Gods plan 

    Jesus' death and resurrection is the bruising of the heal (Not a death blow) 

    Satan will suffer the death blow when he is crushed in the head.

    While Jesus was still just a lad, Satan who wanted the Son of God dead, sent his offspring to kill the Woman' offspring.

    When Satan's  original plan failed, Satan directed the wicked clergy to seek and put Jesus to death.

    But here is the reality. Jesus was not killed because of the kind of supernatural being he was. He was killed--in the human world, by other humans--because of the kind of man he was. 

    I never said he was killed by man because of his supernatural being, (A straw man argument)

    1 Corinthians 2:7-8

    But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, hwhich God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of ithe rulers of this age understood this,

    for jif they had, they would not have crucified kthe Lord of glory.

     I have just told you what the New Testament teaches 

    The revealing and fulfillment of the Sacred Secret of Genesis 3:15

    I and others will have enmity between us, for many are being misled, by Satan's offspring, as prophesied. 


    ....... for many are being misled, by Satan's offspring, as prophesied. 

    ​And this is why we pray for you. You overlook freedom of the slaves, care rather than venom for the poor, and kindness to immigrants.


    Not only are you spiritually blind, but just blind in a fleshly sense. 

    Matthew 15:13-14

    13 He answered, t “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted u will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; v they are blind guides.1 And w if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

    I feed and water what my heavenly father is not going to uproot.

    You can feed whoever you like.

    Kindness to people doesn't have to violate this Nations laws or Gods laws.

    You want to put yourself on a pedestal, causing division and strife, by imposing your conscience on me, when I have repeatedly stated I care for the needy and poor within organizations that help the needy in America, yet you would say that is not enough.

    I have a family friend, that needs chemo as do other breast Cancer patients, who need support. 

    Should I say sorry, I cant help you, I want to provide for immigrants, because another believes, that their cause is more worthy? 

    Again, care for those you want to care for, I am not stopping you.

    Support any God you desire; Give to the Baal worshippers if you like; it's your money.  

    Give to the Church to feed the poor and hope the money you give isn't used to defend pedophiles. 

    I shouldn't have to serve your favorite group. To be declared righteous. 

    You don't think, there is poverty in America and groups that need our help?

    Yet when I do help others, you scorn me. 

    Who gave you the right to judge me? 


    Agree on Jesus' irony and thanks for bringing it up. Without irony, we are left with the stark nature of the universe---which would have been a cruel joke by the God who presumably put us here.


    Maybe I don't understand the using of the word irony?  

    God made the Earth a perfect home for mankind, so why is that a cruel joke,

    Or is this another in a long line of cruel and false accusations, intended to dishonor God by his adversary? 


    Re-read Mathew 22:15-22

    The treacherous Jewish leaders were trying to trap Jesus. Under Jewish law, paying tribute to Caesar was not allowed.if Jesus said pay the tribute, he would have been in violation of Jewish law. The Jewish leaders would have smeared Jesus' name. If Jesus said not to pay the tribute, he would have been in violation of Roman law. The Jewish leadership would have called your precious Authority to arrest Jesus. Jesus answered in a way that left the leaders to decide for themselves if they would or would not pay the tribute. The reason that this is important is because Roman coins boldly stated that the sitting Caesar was a deity. Paying tribute meant agreeing that Caesar was God. You had to choose which God you would serve.

    It does seem that a Notre Dame degree is of great value.


    Who needs a Notre Dame Degree, when God gives the gift of understanding to babes/infants what the wise and educated can't understand? 

    You use the same tactics or a variation of, with the same intent, the Jewish leaders used to smear Jesus and others. Setting a trap and using ad homs to discredit others.  

    Luke 10:21

    Jesus Rejoices in the Father's Will

    21 dIn that same hour ehe rejoiced fin the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, gLord of heaven and earth, that h you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and i revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for j such was your gracious will.1 

    Pulpit Commentary

    Looking upon his servants after their return from their successful mission, a group made up certainly for the most part of poor untutored men - fishers, artisans, and the like, children of the people, without rank or position

    Who needs a Notre Dame Degree when God allows infants to understand what the wise don't. 


    Now you are presenting me with a dilemma. There is a good joke that could be inserted here about your level of understanding, but I will refrain. The take away point is that you did not understand the circumstances of "Render unto Caesar". You have an opinion but you don't know the Bible. Regarding children, there is 1 Corinthians 13:22  detailing the difference between the thought and speech patterns of children and adults. 

    I am not trying to trick you. I am pointing out the gaps in the logic of things you post. I find a great deal of what you try to pass off as Christianity an abomination. You have a free speech right to your opinion. You are free to practice whatever religion you like. If you post errors, they are open to correction.

     


    The spirit works in wondrous ways.

     I had been trying to recall this verse below and imagine my surprise when looking up the scripture you listed and then I find the one that gives a reply to all the lettered and wise.  

    1 Corinthians 1:19-28

    19 For it is written,

    f “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

    and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

    20 gWhere is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? hHas not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach1 to save those who believe. 22 For iJews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ jcrucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ kthe power of God and lthe wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

    Barnes' Notes on the Bible

    1 Corinthians 1:19


    Yes. Resistance, you've figured it out.

    Oxy, rmrd and I are the fleshly spokesmodels for Satan. Gosh darn it; who knew our cover would get blown like this?

    And now, I have to go talk to a guy about a tree. Happy Holy Days, everybody, however you celebrate 'em!


    Have a great Christmas and New Year.


    It is easy to blow the cover ; when looking through the lens of the Bible.

    For example:   What does the oldest manuscripts / original Bible say about Idols or idolatry?  

    4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORDthy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.— Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV)

    According to the psalmist and the prophet Isaiah, those who worship inanimate idols will be like them, that is, unseeing, unfeeling, unable to hear the truth that God would communicate to them  Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image - Wikipedia 

    But there is hope preceding Judgment day. 

     22 y You worship what you do not knowz we worship what we know,  ........24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and TRUTH.”  ...... and ........ the truth e will set you free.” 

    John 4:21-22,  John 4:24, John 8:32

    Worship who you want to, feed whoever you want to  support whoever you want to. 

    I know of Jesus father and I know what pleases and displeases him. 


    There's a reality that people don't much talk about. Not all people are good. Some people like to push others around. They enjoy bullying, abusing others, they  like to fuck people up. They enjoy making people submit in humiliating ways. They like to make people cringe in fear. These things give them a sense of power. People who like that sort of thing seek out employment that gives them the power to do those sort of things.

    No one really knows how many cops are like this, 5%, 15%, most of them? But some significant percentage are and they need to be removed from the system. Cops should be watched with the same broken windows philosophy that they use when watching the communities they rule. With great power comes great responsibility.. Those cops that can't handle the power with responsibility need to be identified and fired.


    Cops should be watched with the same broken windows philosophy that they use when watching the communities they rule.

    I'd like to nominate this for the Dayly quote of the day.


    I'll second that.


    There is a war going on and how are the police to know who are the innocent and who are the foe?

    This Nation has been through this before; During the day Charlie (Vietnamese communist)   looked just like any other, but at night they were looking to kill you.

     The 25 Most Violent Rap Songs of All Time | Complex

    As someone wrote in another post, attitude, demeanor,dress, gang signs, tattoos helps to identify a rebellious attitude.

    An officer who sees an MS13 tattoo, immediately thinks in his mind, BEWARE this person is very capable of turning violent, because many of that gang previously belonged to a paramilitary group trying to overthrow their government; yet many youths want to emulate the Gangsta look in dress and attitude as being cool.   

    Being meek goes along ways towards diffusing a tense encounter.   

    Michael Brown made some very graphic rap songs and the ...

    You cant feed your mind on this garbage on a daily basis and it not affect the listener.

    GIGO.


    There is a war going on and how are the police to know who are the innocent and who are the foe?

    There is not, to be clear, a war going on.


    There has been a war going on since the beginning of time; Good against evil 

    It doesn't matter if you can see it or not, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

    Those who have their perceptive powers trained, can easily see the results of a disobedient / rebellious spirit as opposed to a submissive one, which is conducive for humans to live in peace and harmony with one another. Like the Laws of Gravity, the Laws of Physics; there are laws to govern society; ignore them and society suffers. 

    The rebellious spirit is in constant battle against the best practices of societal norms of conduct.  

    Sons of disobedience:  "No one is going to tell them what to do" 

    It has permeated society so much like the air around us, People infected by the spirit of disobedience think, plan, speak, and act in ways that reflect disobedience to the law(s) 

    The sons of disobedience do what they want, without regard for the laws 

    They interact with others by putting their pride or selfishness above all other considerations. They blatantly show a rebellious attitude toward authority, and they do all they can to  satisfy “the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes.

    Using debased music and entertainment to capture the weak; especially the young children, society wants to groom for the future; children they want to grow up without the pain, disobedience brings.

    Unwanted pregnancies, immoral sexual activities, just to name a couple of examples of the results of the "air of disobedience"  

    There is no peace, no harmony on the Earth. There is no forgiving one another for trespasses with those infected with the spirit of disobedience, as opposed to those with the spirit of submission whose attributes include meekness and the  putting the interest of others ahead of their own interests. 

    Imagine a world where everyone cares for one another?

    Once the sons of disobedience are gone, we'll have such a world.

    First the war between good and evil must be won by individuals. 

    Even our forefathers recognized the need to protect us from the "sons of disobedioience"

    to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men

    Disobedience to the laws jeopardizes all members of society. 

    It is a BATTLE to keep and "secure these rights" 


    There has been a war going on since the beginning of time; Good against evil 

    That's a fairy tale.


    I look at cause and effect and realize the truthfulness of what the Bible says.

    Ignore it, that is your choice.

    You offer no practical solutions to the problems mankind faces but the Bible does.

    Individuals have to change before there will ever be a solution. 


    Individuals, even in the bible, are neither wholly good or evil.  Look around you.  Every individual is complex, an angel in moments, a demon in moments and something less than either most of the time.  No way of thinking that ignores such complexities can move us forward.


    No way of thinking that ignores such complexities can move us forward.

    The way of thinking that works is adjusting our individual lives to the Perfect Law.

    You're correct no one is perfect ....but one  

    The Law Book (Bible)  is the mirror we use to correct the defects in ourselves. 

    If you want a better world look at yourself, (In the mirror)  make the change.

    Isn't there the knowledge of a  Reward / Punishment that reinforces the right behavior? 


    Jesus spoke repeatedly about caring for the poor. In John, he speaks specifically about caring for the poor with actions rather than mere words. Your venom for the poor speaks volumes about your faith.


    More insults? 

    You understood?  Nothing 

    I asked you before; What gives you the right to tell me or others what poor we should tend to? 

    I suspect there will be no let up on the lies you spread ?


    My free speech rights give me that right. Just as yours allows you to attack the poor for being poor. A rigid, judgmental religion is easy to follow because you are able to criticize others and remain outside the fray.

    Why should I give a dime to that poor person? If they had followed the rules, they would be okay. Perhaps they did follow the rules and still got screwed. Perhaps they had terrible behavior. Instead of saying that that person doesn't deserve my money, I reflect on the many blessings and comforts I enjoy. I realize that I don't deserve all that I enjoy, but I have them because of the grace of the Almighty. We all receive things in the form of blessings that we have not truly earned. Family, health, job, money, home, and creature comfort surrounds me.

    I approach things from that standpoint. My money may provide for education or job training or food to help the person in need. We are called to care for the poor. I do not insult you, I point out a flaw in your argument. Show me where Jesus repeatedly talked about the poor in the rude manner you use.

     


    You’re HATE Speech and defamation, is an abuse of Free speech rights 

    I never told you, or anyone else, to not care for the poor. 

    Yet you continue with your irrational, unprovoked criticism which has little or no factual basis. Except the lies you spread and build upon.


    It is not hate speech. I just show you the reflection of your words about the poor. You label them lazy, single mothers, drug abusers, etc.. The truth is that low-paid workers are needed for Capitalism to survive. You voice your displeasure with the poor. The poor are those victimized by the system. In the Parable of the Talents, Eric Garner would be one of those telling the tale of how he grew his money by selling loose cigarettes. Garner was an entrepreneur. A banned choke hold applied by the police led to his death. You blame the poor man for dying. 

    Faith without works is dead. Your faith work appears to be criticism of the poor and kneeling at the altar of Authority. Even doctors and medical students at prestigious medical institutions are moved to challenge the police state by staging Die-ins. Hearts are being changed. You are blind to the change. You stand yelling "Stop. Get off my lawn. I have a full belly and a warm home. I don't want to hear about the suffering of the poor. Please don't change how my precious Authority works with the poor, I disturbs my comfort zone." God changes things. Some of us expect change to come by magic and cannot see when people are used to change things.

    Continue your rants against the poor.

    Edited to add link to medical school Die-ins.


    I also understand some people have a reluctance to believe the Bible was inspired. So putting that aside,

    Moses led a Nation and recorded Laws, that he and his counselors applied to control massive crowds of citizens with societal issues,

    Solomon was recognized as one of the wisest Kings ever, others came from miles away to see and learn of his wisdom and how he dealt with an entire nation of people and their societal needs for laws to keep order.

    Paul before he became a Christian was well versed in the Law that had been established to help their society.

    Common to all these rulers and law enforcers was man and his need for laws to contain lawlessness. 

    Principles of thou shall not steal, would have covered many aspects of the corruption we see today.

    Today they wear a three piece suit and a tie, in their days they may have looked different, but the principle of the Law hasn't changed.

    Back in ancient days; witnesses to a criminal act required evidence as they do today  

    That's what makes the Israelites stand out amongst the nations, they had a superior law code, because of years of considering its effect on society. 

    I believe they had divine help, I believe the principles that were handed down to them, would work for our entire planet  

    So whether you believe or not believe these men were inspired to write; their wisdom in dealing with societal issues of their day is still useful today, as it was then.


    Should a person who believes the Earth is only thousands of years old teach evolution if that goes against their religious beliefs?


    Some are trying to overturn the soundness of fearing the police.

    Wanting to fight another "what came first the chicken or the egg"

    Authority comes first and the police are authorities agents. 

    3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? ,,,,,,, But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain.

    Romans 13:3-4

    DO GOOD; and most likely you will not be confronted by the one with the sword.

    If you don't know how to be good, then learn it.

    The policeman's job is to carry the sword. he is not your teacher.


    I get the thinness of the thin blue line. And as you say Michael, "we" get it too.

    Who that "we" gets to be has certainly been under discussion. 

    The Brooks angle addresses only the "we" he cares about. To some extent, he is just another shout out from an interested party. It is not an absurd point of view. But it doesn't accept responsibility for what is happening.

    What is happening? There are the people who become dramatic symbols of the failures of the system but the failures of the system are a hard thing to look at for long. Brooks has not been hitting the keyboard railing against the inequities of the penal system as a whole.

    The Brooks point of view is exquisitely cynical. As if to say:

    You will forget this awful thing because it is only just like those other awful things you have already agreed to accept as an unavoidable term of the social contract.


    You will forget this awful thing because it is only just like those other awful things you have already agreed to accept as an unavoidable term of the social contract.

    Just like torture.  Hi, white readers... don't worry.  It probably won't happen to you unless you really have it coming.

     

      Ha! Gotta agree with you there, Maiello.


      MW/MM:

      Anyone should be able to be indicted for performing their job in a negligent or unsafe manner. Including police officers.

      If we could pull it together to indict a few of these folks, death by cop cases would drop precipitously. 

      At some point, though, we may not have to, because the Brown/Garner cases have put good police officers on notice that the bad ones are making it harder for the good officers to do their jobs and stay safe. (It's got to be quite upsetting for good police officers to deal with protesters, and on a practical note, it's costing police departments a lot in overtime.) Also, public perception is important, and the general public's approval of police is down. That's affecting police officers at their own kitchen tables all over the country.

      I'm pretty sure there will be a culling of the herd, indictments or no, but a few indictments would really help.

       


      Officers just wont respond as quickly. 

      They'll go in and investigate after the smoke has cleared, giving time for the perps to get away.

      Why should the police confront a robbery in progress? 

      In the case of robbery; Let the insurance companies cover the loss and if society wants the perps arrested then the court assume the liability after the warrant has been issued and let the perps resist arrest.


      I hope you're right about positive pressure leading to fewer incidents.  It's a test of how healthy the cultures of various police forces are.


      I think it will lead to fewer incidents. Sometimes "the public" just kind of changes its mind almost overnight, and I think that's what has happened here. Last year's issue was gay marriage; a lot of people had quietly been thinking that maybe "family" should have a broader meaning than previously, and when the subject started being openly discussed, a huge group of people realized that there was a lot more agreement than disagreement. Then, suddenly it was ok for almost everybody to "come out" and say they were in favor.

      In my opinion, we're looking at a similar situation in regard to the way the police justify a certain mean-spiritedness that has as its worst consequence a completely lopsided and injudicious use of force. Nobody would want their eccentric uncle to be treated like Eric Garner, or their grandson to be treated like Tamir Rice. The Brown and Martin cases are a little more shadowy; Rice and Martin are pretty obvious. But taken as a group, the four cases have a certain momentum, and the momentum favors positive change.

      (The questionable police officers are helping things along. A couple of days ago at a protest in Oakland, a CHP officer pulled a gun and pointed it straight at a reporter, only to be "shot" in perfect, high-definition focus. It's quite an image, the kind of image that changes minds.)


      Re the Brooks article itself I was just thinking that perhaps it's only benefit is that we might not have to endure another version of it on the torture report.


      There are times when you will do your job really well but will be treated with contempt. A lot of the moments that aren't dangerous or exciting are tedious.

      The thing is, we get it.

      Well, that all depends upon who the "we" refers to, doesn't it?

      We don't need David Brooks or anyone, for that matter, telling us how hard it is to be a police officer.  That knowledge is embedded in our culture and our legal system.  People so well understand how difficult and dangerous the job is that they have extended benefit of the doubt beyond its reasonable boundaries. 

      There are two problems with that reasoning. First, the fact that institutions grant a group favor doesn't necessarily imply that people look upon that group favorably. The two may be completely unrelated. I'd argue that at least where the federal government is concerned, elected officials are hyper-empowered and still loathed by ordinary citizens. Second, while the majority of people may feel sympathetic towards the police, your "we" excludes some people who plainly do not. Recently, I've both heard and read comments from people which indicate that they hold the police in contempt. Originally, I assumed that this sort of comment shouldn't be taken at face value, that they were was really only meant to apply to the handful of cops who're bad actors rather than to police officers generally. When I've asked, I've been told that they meant exactly what they said, which has included assertions that most people who become cops do because they crave the authority to legally dominate people and that it's harder to find a cop who isn't racist than one who is. I honestly don't know if this is just an emotional reaction to recent events which will naturally dissipate over time, or if it's really a long held conviction that's been given voice as a result of all the attention focused on police misconduct of late. I hope it's the former.


      It may be that the question of "bad apples" versus "majority of good cops" just isn't what applies any more.  The problem is that the police in general have increased their institutional authority over the last four decades or so as laws have grown more numerous, specific and in many cases petty.  For everybody, but especially minorities, we have greatly increased your chances of having a negative interaction with the police (by that I include people getting legitimate tickets or admonishments for extremely minor violations of the law).

      I bet you'd also find that people have a negative view of those who would take jobs as IRS tax examiners, looking for sometimes very small mistakes in returns that people have either spent hours, money or both preparing.  I think people understand that these IRS agents are just doing their jobs and that those jobs are necessary and that they even support them even if they take a negative view because, as with police work, the generalities make sense but any specific individual interaction might seem deeply unfair.


      The problem is that the police in general have increased their institutional authority over the last four decades or so as laws have grown more numerous, specific and in many cases petty. 

      That's interesting. I don't have that sense myself, but that certainly doesn't mean you're wrong. I wonder if you're seeing something that I've been ignoring, or if you're talking about a trend that's limited to certain areas- possibly not including where I live. (Midwestern city w/ pop. about 70k FWIW.)

      Also, we are currently experiencing particularly low crime rates in the nation. I think that's the only reason we're getting bipartisan support for sentencing reform. How do you believe the trend of intrusiveness in law enforcement relates to lower crime rates? Or do you think them unrelated?


      The police want the Black community to fear them, and that is what the police accomplished. If a good cop is paired with a bad cop. You are screwed. The good cop won't report the things that the bad cop did. Both will lie on the police report.

      Here is a clip of a Black couple stopped because of a seat belt violation. There are two children in the back seat. The police approach the car with weapons drawn. The female driver provides ID. They then ask the passenger has no ID. THE couple is fearful given the tone used by the police and that weapons are out. The female driver dials 911 attempting to summit a good cop to rescue her from these two bad cops. The two officers on the scene break a window and Taser the passenger. This is for a seat belt violation.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2783809/Terrifying-moment-police...

      Here is video of police stopping the wrong color car. The police erected looking for four Black males in a different make and color of car. They stop a woman driving a car with four children under 10. You see the terrified woman. You are angered when you see the male child exit the car with his hands up.

      http://abc7chicago.com/news/texas-police-pull-mother-and-children-over-a...

      There is little reason to trust the police.


      I assume that wasn't a typo---erect then arrest is most likely in the DNA.

      As a white guy I can't go so far as to say I have little reason to trust the police. Am I skeptical and careful? Yes. But then again I have no expectation of being profiled negatively.

      Location. Forney is a small settlement S.E. of Dallas. It was once a mecca for antique shopping but now, my impression of the town is that it is has no revenue, the cops most likely old school. In the N. Dallas suburbs I don't think this stop would go down as it did there. But that's no excuse, these guys had to convince themselves that kids weren't adults. I'm just saying that there are places, thank God, where this insulting and potentially dangerous behavior is on the down swing because the population is just too diverse to permit it.

      The little guy with his hands up. I'm just thankful he was educated well by his parents and at the same time I am disgusted that he had to be taught such behavior because of the black community's experience with the police. If he had been a couple of years older and acted disgruntled, this could have been a very tragic situation.

      And just let me be clear on this. Never in my decades on this planet, visits to all 50 states, residences in ten states have I ever once heard a white family or white kids even discuss what you do when you are stopped by the police.


      Never in my decades on this planet, visits to all 50 states, residences in ten states have I ever once heard a white family or white kids even discuss what you do when you are stopped by the police.

      It might not be a bad idea. Ten years ago I was pulled over for a traffic violation (rolling stop? failed to stop? not sure) and the officer came to the window and started asking me where I was going and what I'd been doing. I was waiting for him to tell me what I did or take my license so he could run a check on me. It occurred to me that he hadn't asked for my registration and (stupidly) I said, "You're going to want this..." and opened the glove compartment to get the registration. It was friendly and conversational until then, but that changed when I reached into the glove box.

      I'd never had anyone point a gun at me before. I was pretty shaken up by it. When things settled down again, the cop basically gave me a version of "the talk." Something that I really appreciated is that he told me that the panic I felt when I saw him pull his gun on me is what he was feeling until he could tell I was just getting a piece of paper. 


      I am sorry that you had to experience that fear.

      Black citizens wonder if they would have actually gotten shot if they made the same "mistake" that you made. There are polls that indicate Whites believe that police treat everyone equally.. That believe is in dispute. You had no fear of the police before your incident. Blacks would know not to make sudden moves or to attempt to announce that they were going to open the glove compartment before making a move. The fact that there is a difference in police encounters is supported by the fact that guidance of how to interact with police is an uncommon thing among White families where you live. 


      I just wanted to make the point that black or white, 'the talk' can be a good thing for everyone to hear. It may be injudicious of whites to just assume that their kids will be safe. I find it both odd and interesting that I heard it from an actual cop.

      I am sorry that you had to experience that fear.

      Thanks for saying that, but there was no harm done and I feel that I learned some important things as a result.

      Black citizens wonder if they would have actually gotten shot if they made the same "mistake" that you made.

      I can understand that. I've wondered the same thing, particularly this September after the incident where Sean Groubert, a South Carolina State Trooper, shot Levar Jones.when he was getting his wallet.  Incidentally, Groubert was fired and has been charged and faces up to 20 years in jail, so that's something. We won't get a result until more than halfway through next year though.

      http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/trial-verdict-extended-ex-south-carolina-cop


      I believe the upbringing and the raising of children contribute to the problem ; I believe that in most cases the lack of a father in the home; who can correct a child with a bad attitude, contributes to the lack of respect for authority

      Children In Single-Parent Families By Race

      Year(s): 4 selected | Race: All | Data Type:

      All Data Provided by: National KIDS COUNT

      Black or African American

                       2006              2008              2010             2012

      Number      6,273,000      6,195,000      6,533,000       6,493,000

      Percent      65%                65%             66%               67%


      The problem is abuse of authority.


      In response to the George Kelling angle:

      His insistence that the people doing the job have to work outside of stated parameters excludes one obvious alternative; develop a protocol that is not so much at odds with the actual work.

      Like other risky work, protecting the people doing it has to be a primary principle of organization. Kelling's argument assumes that principle is at odds with the requirements of the law. Other people doing dangerous work don't accept such abject resignation to failure in their work. They change the methods. They get on with it.

      The issue of cop behavior has become a perfect storm of conflation. It touches upon how the inequities of our society are preserved. It touches upon laws that cannot be truly enforced. It asks how much force is needed to keep the peace in any particular place. None of the above are the same thing.


      Absolutely.  The problem for Kelling is that the parameters being violated are Constitutional. The parameters can't be changed.  But he wants to insist that the methods he wants to use, Constitutional or not, are valid.  Everyone else who lives under the law, rather than as part of it, has to adjust to conform.