MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
See, I told you Obama is coming for our guns! Well, the state of Tennessee is, anyway. Poetic justice.
Comments
Link that works:
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/state-suspends-handgun-carry...
by acanuck on Fri, 01/11/2013 - 6:58pm
He will be a strong candidate for Governor of Tennessee in a couple of years.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/11/2013 - 7:29pm
It was said, Obama was going to issue an executive order to deal with the gun ban issue .
Based upon that news, he may have felt justified. (Although he was stupid to be so vocal.)
We don't live under a Dictatorship or a Monarchy.
Don't kid yourself, thinking there are not others, who feel the same way he does.
Keep pushing for gun control, as did the abolitionist did to abolish slavery, and this Nation may find itself again, in another civil war.
You may believe these people would back down to prevent civil war, but that would be a fatal error.
Of course the members of the standing army, the forefathers feared, would have to choose which side of the issue, they would defend.
A strict interpretation of the Second Amendment or an allowance of infringement which some folks who swore an oath to defend against.
VP Bidens' remarks should be construed, as inciting a rebellion to which this gentleman proved, he was incited to do violence.
by Resistance on Fri, 01/11/2013 - 7:31pm
Considering that you're defending gun rights, I find it interesting that you equate the right to own guns with the right to own slaves…
I find that analogy as flawed as your last statement that Biden's remarks should be construed as inciting a rebellion. Try to get some perspective before you inadvertently end up defending slavery again!
by Verified Atheist on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 11:29am
Resistance is Dag's village loon. R believes he and his gun are all that stand in the way of the takeover of America by a clone of the Khmer Rouge. Of course, the fact that numerous nations have increased gun laws or even confiscated guns without being overrun by dictators does not deter the delusions.
Comparing laws on gun safety with slavery and the Civil War, does break new loon territory.
Meanwhile, R is not alone in nuttiness, as Americans flock to buy the gun that killed the children in Newton. Call it a sick 'gotta get one' consumer driven rush like the one to buy Twinkies or Tickle Me Elmos, or call it the evidence of a national mental illness. For far too many, it will not end well.
by NCD on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 12:38pm
Why do you come back calling Resistance a loon?
Comparing the US to other countries doesn't always work. Europe has had socialized health care forever - for us, it's a bridge always too far.
And while I've never owned a gun, I'm not numbed by the stead encroachment of rights. Where Obama once vowed to vote against FISA, he not only lobbied & voted for and extended it, but now declares that the Executive Branch is not even limited by it. Phone records, business records, purchases, whatever, all are now government's property. While there are a few quibbles about murder at Gitmo, our black site at Bagram is completely ignored for indefinite detention and likely torture. Targeted assassination of American nationals with not even an indictment. Expansion of military equiment and drones for local police enforcement, along with widespread use of deadly taser force for any minor non-cooperation. I hate the expression "slippery slope", but in this case post-9/11 we just keep slipping. The Jose Padilla internment wouldn't even draw comment today. I'm for gun control, but combined with war on terruh irrationality, I'm not thrilled about more government control. And Congress continues to default on its duty of oversight - leaving it to 2 or 4 Senators to rubber stamp the few intelligence briefings they're given.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 2:54pm
Resistance is defending a guy who has publicly threatened to "start killing people," on the grounds that "he may have felt justified. (Although he was stupid to be so vocal.)"
In R's world, feeling justified is sufficient excuse for murder. The gun nut's only misstep was to announce his intentions out loud. That's lunacy.
More lunacy: VP Biden's remarks should be construed as inciting rebellion, because they inspired in some deranged individual the urge to commit violence. Does he not even understand the meaning of words?
by acanuck on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 4:26pm
Here's Yeager elaborating on his threat after his license was pulled: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/01/just_watch_this.php?ref=fpblg
by acanuck on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 4:30pm
The Yeager story was helpful to me in that it crystalizes the issue; the TN commissioner framed it nicely:
Makes clear how people like Resistance and Yeager think it's a basic civil right to own guns, a minority, while a majority, including many NRA members, think it should be a privilege that can be revoked. And those who think it is an unqualified right end up wading into the sticky wicket of who qualifies to have some civil rights taken away: mentally ill? under 21? convicted felons? terrorist sympathizers? etc.
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 4:49pm
We're killing people every day, whether drone strikes & helicopter attacks and night raids in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia, or accidental taser deaths because grandma wouldn't leave her baseball seat or argued over a traffic ticket. I think Yeager's pretty much a nut like most neocon/survivalist/gun nut types, but then I think a lot of of the US government is made of vicious nuts.
And I don't think Resistance was trying to defend Yeager - I think he was trying to parse the guy's words and clarify the intent, and how he thought government's response would play out. If you think that's loony, think about how many times Democrats predicted right-wingers would have to back off and cooperate just because they lost this or that election in a landslide. Completely nuts - we're reality challenged in our ideals of what *should* work.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 6:28pm
Do you?
From
The news, that VP Joe Biden was suggesting, that the President; rather than the Congress, could arbitrarily infringe upon the right of Second Amendment, incited widespread fear and paranoia.
(The President of the United States, does not have the power of Egyptian President Morsi, to suspend rights when ever he feel like it )
The VP was instigating, provoking, and whipping up, to create a reaction and did find someone who was provoked, and whipped up.
VP Biden did instigate with total disregard; like yelling fire in a movie theater, where innocent people could get hurt.
People who will defend this country, from arbitrary rulership; will react. and the VP should have known.
It’s as though the VP may have watched Pierce Morgan and thought it funny, that he too, could illicit a response, incite, provoke, stir up.
It’s obvious, the VP’s plan worked.
You and others like to point out the lunacy of the man provoked but not the one agitating and bullying a possible shooter to act.
It was said the Columbine shooters were bullied.
Biden is a bully; just ask the NRA, that showed up to discuss a National plan to deal with this gun violence, only to be used as the whipping boy for Biden's parties agenda. Use the death of innocent children and teachers, to counter the political power of the NRA.
Problem is, the Democrats just shot themselves in the foot, when they find out, they'll lose the midterm elections because of their overreach.
Again the Left comes to power, and gives it back to the right wing obstructionist.
You may have won the Presidency, but the ratchet only works to the right.
by Resistance on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 6:49pm
Beginning with George Washington, U.S. presidents have issued thousands of executive orders. They aren't new or alien to the American system of government, and they are subject to judicial challenge. Only two have ever been overturned, but you can be confident -- given the leanings of the current Supreme Court -- that Obama won't even try to take away your precious guns.
There is only very limited scope for presidential executive orders here, such as beefing up existing enforcement powers, sharing of information between agencies, etc. Joe Biden made clear that Congress has to act as well. So shut up about arbitrary action, monarchy, dictatorship and all the other right-wing buzzwords.
by acanuck on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 10:44pm
Ever hear of Freedom of Speech?
I see; now that you are emboldened to attack the 2nd Amendment; now it's shut up?
Now you'll go after my First Amendment Right too, because I dared to disagree?
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 1:34am
Once again, Res, you show an astonishing inability to understand what words mean. In abridged form:
Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech.
Congress! The amendment is binding on Congress! I, on the other hand, can tell you to do any number of things, without any ability to enforce my will. That's called free speech.
by acanuck on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 1:56am
How long before you and a few of your friends, could persuade Congress to make me shut up and the only thing protecting me, was my ability to protect myself.
I fully understand what people might be capable of, and I know, you wouldn't defend my rights, because evidently, you feel safe from government intrusion.
The exact text of what Martin Niemoller said,
and which appears in the Congressional Record,
October 14, 1968, page 31636 is:
(Edited so it wont confuse you and you miss the point.)
"
When Hitler attacked the JewsI was not a Jew, therefore I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the Catholics,I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned.
And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists,I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned.
Then Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church --and there was nobody left to be concerned."
The Second Amendment, helps protect the minorities
I don't believe you or the majority could be counted upon.
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 3:56am
About as long as it takes to teach hippopotami to fly. Please get over this obsession with the thought of an entire government conspiring to take away your rights. Yes, the government is ultimately in control of much of our lives, but we're ultimately in control of the government. If we make wise choices in the voting booth we'll get the government we want and deserve.
Your obsession should be with understanding the workings of our government and with educating voters, not with some harebrained projection of dystopian doom and gloom. Unless, of course, you enjoy doom and gloom.
by Ramona on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 7:55am
Please don't be absurd. The US courts just opened up elections to unlimited private donations by rich wingnuts and corporations, and we spent this last election cycle proclaiming "don't ask any tough questions because the opponent will be worse". Koch Brothers, Walmart, Goldman Sachs, Northrop Grumman, Pfizer, Kaiser and Exxon-Mobil have much more control of the government than you or I will ever have.
Let's just watch the next round of compromises in the debt ceiling showdown - we'll see how powerless we are.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 8:27am
Nothing absurd about what I've said. I rail on about the supreme court, the Republican House majority, the liberties taken in the name of homeland security, the power of the one percent, the Koch Brothers, the ALEC-controlled state governors, too, but I don't rail on about a wholesale government takeover, because there isn't any evidence of that happening.
If every discussion has to degenerate into "look out for the big, bad government; remember Hitler and the Nazis, Obama is evil, they're coming to take our guns away", we'll get nowhere. We're trying to deal with the here and now and those constant, go-nowhere projections are nothing more than tiresome distractions.
But, yes, you have the right to express your opinion--and I have the right to tell you what I think of it. And vicey-versey. And so it goes. Because we live in the Land of the Free.
by Ramona on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 9:27am
From what I saw Resistance saying, he was 1) concerned about decrease in rights, and 2) worried about how people worked with borderline cases like Yeager. In the case of the former, he didn't seem to be expecting federales swooping into our living rooms, but that in #2, if we don't approach the armed-and-outspoken contingent carefully & seriously, it could turn into a weird dangerous movement.
But what would be the state of our union right now if Dick Cheney had become President? What would our national security state look like if another 9/11 happened? John Brennan, drone advocate, was just made head of the CIA - couldn't he be President in 8 years?
Is that dystopian doom & gloom, or an acknowledgment of the fragile state of our democracy and moral values, as seen post-9/11 from Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, TSA scanners, tasers, 2008 economic meltdown, and recurring "fiscal cliffs"? The Supreme Court just ruled the Executive Branch can grab all your private data as long as they don't use it - and it's up to them to tell you whether they used it or not.
It doesn't have to turn into Hitler - it can turn into Qaddafi, McCarthy, Pinochet, Mugabe, Meciar, or some other very common example of thuggish government that doesn't have to be bloody, only repressive. As I'm not a gun fan, I don't think of coming for our guns as the worst of it. The ability of the government to divert trillions without vote to where they want it, to lock people up indefinitely without trial or charge, the backroom control corporates have over government operation & immunity from prosecution - these all worry me more, and they are happening.
Here's another description of how the FBI goes about entrapping people. While they use anti-terror statutes to justify monitoring & shutting down peaceful Greenpeace and Occupy Wall Street operations.
And for our New Year's, the US military is planning military operations in 35 African countries this year - did anyone vote on this kind of military "anti-terror" expansion? Was it ever even discussed?
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:32am
I would wager a bet; they aren't interested in the facts or the truth.
They have no love for it.
It appears as though, they want to continue to wear a veil over their eyes.
Don't tell them to remove it; don’t even help them to lift it up just a little, to prove to them, the veil they wear is blinding them.
They won’t accept evidence. Their minds are made up; they are not to be confused with honest jurists.
They ask "What is truth”? Because they have no appreciation for the truth, they ignore it, they scoff and ridicule it.
Strutting about as peacocks, squawking "look how pretty the veil is" who needs truth when we have a veil to protect us from it.
Continued below, at the bottom
Peacock and the Crane
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 1:14pm
I guess you missed this part or just didn't care. (Okay, I'm done.)
by Ramona on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 2:33pm
I would yield to Peracles' response to you. I will post at the bottom.
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 3:40pm
The problem with Godwin's Law is it says we can't learn from the most important event of the last century.
The Nazis didn't swoop to power - they built up influence over the course of 8-10 years.
The chaos & scare of German inflation during that time helped speed the process - German willingness to go along and take drastic action.
This all is not unique to Nazis - the rise of Communism in many countries was gradual, many dictators started off as reformers....
Since 9/11, there's been quite a loss of constitutional protection, and it hasn't slowed with the Obama administration.
While dealing with the "here and now", some of the important issues are ignored in the interest of expediency. I don't particularly care about the 2nd Amendment - I can't imagine a serious revolt in the US based on pistol-waving armed militias in the street. But the level of increased government intrusion isn't a fanciful "distraction" - it's a steady trend. Now that we re-elected Obama, I was hoping we'd push him to do something useful on the economy and our global wars. Instead, we'll play more austerity games, increase monitoring of purchases & other citizen data, and expand our anti-terror war in Africa. Not terribly heartwarming.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 2:55pm
You're a total drama queen aren't you. It is so weird to read this, because no one in Congress cares a whit about your crazy internet civil war fantasy. However, if congress were to suddenly look your direction I would advise them to ignore your over-the-top drama queen need for attention.
by tmccarthy0 on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:00am
I am reminded of the strutting Red Queen, who looks down at others.
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 1:24pm
I keep encouraging folks to be a bit easy on Resistance.
We've had several cases where free speech was convicted for its supposed ties to terrorism, such as Holder vs. Humanitarian Law Project, even though the latest big one, Tarek Mehanna, had never contacted Al Qaeda, and was only translating materials.
This isn't because of any principled stand against terrorism - numerous US politicians lobbied for MEK while it was on the terrorist list and helped get it taken off, while Holder's DoJ forewent all criminal penalties for HSBC allowing ignoring large amounts of drug & terrorist money within a $15 billion currency movement.
Brandenburg v Ohio (1969) had upheld controversial and even threatening non-specific speech. But that's quaintly gone now. Laura Poitras, a filmmaker, reports she's been detained & searched at the border over 40 times, so now keeps her notes & video material in the internet cloud. Others have had customs agents note that there was no concern about terrorist protection, it was about the political content, the free speech compenent, of what was on the laptop.
Of course if Joe Lieberman threatens Iran with large scale pre-emptive military action, death & destruction over the possible knowledge - not ability - to make a bomb in a way that's highly likely to be carried out as seen with Iraq & Libya, that's not crazy like Yeager, that's just standard American saber-rattling foreign policy.
And now we're days after Aaron Swartz's suicide, where federal prosecutors used their leeway to threaten him with decades in prison plus huge fines even though JSTOR refused to press charges. Likely he was destroyed for his activism, possibly for potential contacts with Bradley Manning.
So excuse me if I don't dismiss threats on free speech, and don't faint at Yeager's statements, even if I lump Yeager with typical bravado gun nut. There was a lot of panic in the days of Palin and then the first days of Teabagger, about the impending likelihood of someone getting shot, and somehow it never quite happened. People rant in hyperbole, and that's one of the things that should be protected, unless it really crosses the line to assault (the criminal definition of actionable threats without physical contact)
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 8:16am
Damn right NCD.
by tmccarthy0 on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:19am
NCD, I really don't like the whole loon thing. It cheapens your otherwise very reasonable point.
(Although if you are going to go the name-calling route, loon is probably among the least objectionable. It's a nice-looking and often amusing bird.)
by erica20 on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 5:03pm
Why is it, you always insist on twisting my words.
Maybe you should practice what your preach and get some perspective, rather than putting forth falsehoods so you can appear intelligent, as you knock down strawmen
I have never defended slavery; there is, no again
Just another of your delusions?
Did abolitionist pressure, bring forth a civil war?
Just as I believe this hatred of the Second Amendment, by some in the anti Gun Rights movement, could bring forth a civil war.
Both sides pro or con willing to fight for their prospective positions.
But either way, both sides readying for civil war.
I expected better from you, than your cheap shots.
by Resistance on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 12:56pm
You asked if abolitionist brought forth the Civil War? No, that is the definitive answer. Secession started the civil war. Why is it you don't know that?
by tmccarthy0 on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:30am
You obviously learned history from Jeopardy or playing Mindtrap or filling in crossword puzzles - the shorter the better, hate to engage more than 1 brain cell. No causality or train of events, just buy a letter, Alex - I'll take 'c' for "condescension".
Why is it you can't actually debate anything here, only run around adding snippy shitty little comments or an attaboy to someone you think's on your team?
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:51am
You obviously learned history from Jeopardy or playing Mindtrap or filling in crossword puzzles - the shorter the better, hate to engage more than 1 brain cell. No causality or train of events, just buy a letter, Alex - I'll take 'c' for "condescension".
Why is it you can't actually debate anything here, only run around adding snippy shitty little comments or an attaboy to someone you think's on your team?
To clarify here, if anyone's interested - Lincoln could have chosen another route than embargo on the South and attack at Fort Sumter. Or he might have had no other choice. Depends on your point of view.
The South could have chosen another route than secession, such as fight it out legislatively and commercially. Or they might have felt they had no choice. Depends on your POV.
The abolition movement might have found another more effective route to promote their cause without alienating the south so much and turning them more paranoid. Or maybe not - all other routes might have been futile & ineffective, the South might have been entrenched. Depends on your POV. [this is the area Resistance was pointing at]
History isn't a cracker-jack box with a single prize. It's a complex result of competing forces often with much difficulty in understanding what happened, much less finding predictive value out of it.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:59am
Let me spell it out for you, as I was using a little bit of hyperbole to make a point. Here's precisely (no twisting!) what you wrote:
Now, think on that. Can you see how that sounds like you're saying, in essence, that pushing for gun control is just as "bad" as pushing to abolish slavery? I know you don't really mean that, but it sure seems like what you're saying!
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:58am
Really; you should think on it, instead of making assumptions
Nowhere in that statement, could it be construed; I thought a civil war was a good or bad thing. Just another of your delusions; seeing and reading into things, that aren’t really there?
The only thing the two would have in common, is to involve the nation in “another” BAD civil war, again.
Maybe you think civil wars are GOOD, and you're willing to risk another?
I do not want to see another war, but I am afraid the efforts of the divisive Gun Ban advocates, will bring us to that point. .
Every civil war diminishes civil society. It is divisive, it promotes hatred, it promotes further conflict.
It is becoming more evident, you can't discuss this issue, without twisting, manipulating and misrepresenting others viewpoints.
For the benefit of the Red Queen and her supporters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom's_Cabin
Uncle Tom's Cabin; or, Life Among the Lowly[1] is an anti-slavery novel by American author Harriet Beecher Stowe. Published in 1852, the novel
"helped lay the groundwork for the Civil War",
according to Will Kaufman….. It is credited with helping fuel the abolitionist cause in the 1850s…… The impact attributed to the book is great,
reinforced by a story that when Abraham Lincoln met Stowe at the start of the Civil War, Lincoln declared, "So this is the little lady who started this great war."
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 1:28pm
I strongly apologize for assuming that you thought a civil war would be a bad thing. I should have known better. Still, you seem to be missing the thrust of my argument, but perhaps that's because again I'm wrong in my assumptions, namely that you see nothing wrong with the previous fight to abolish slavery? (Please tell me that assumption was correct!)
by Verified Atheist on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 5:04pm
I hope the crazies keep coming out to express their "second amendment rights." Once the public gets a good look at them it will get easier and easier to pass gun control legislation.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/11/portland-residents-panic-as-men-ar...
Two men walked the streets of Portland armed with assault weapons earlier this week because they said they wanted to “educate” residents, who reacted by fleeing and calling police.
Warren Drouin and Steven Boyce told KPTV that they were forced to take drastic measure to make sure people were aware of their Second Amendment rights after 20 children in Connecticut were massacred with same type of AR-15 rifles they were carrying.
But KPTV’s Kaitlyn Bolduc reported that the demonstration created a “state of panic” in Portland’s Sellwood neighborhood.
“Employees inside of E Hair Studio hid in the back of the salon and locked there doors, while other ran for help for fear the two were really there to cause harm,” Bolduc said.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 01/11/2013 - 8:26pm
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/01/12/ceo-who-said-he-would-start-killin...
Yeager has a new video out where he eats crow retracting everything he said in his previous videos and apologizing.
He's getting his first real world lesson on the Bill of Rights. I'm guessing someone explained to him that threats of violence and incitement to violence is not protected by the first amendment. I can just imagine him saying, the first amendment says Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech, what part of make no law don't you understand. Just as he says, what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand..
Like most of these gun nut blowhards, when faced with possible arrest he backed down and retracted all his statements. No 1776 revolution, no shooting people, no armed "defense" of his second amendment rights. I'm not worried by Yeager or Alex Jones or the other gun nuts threatening another civil war. If congress can get its act together and pass some reasonable and responsible gun control the gun nuts will accept it and we'll move on. Delusional they might be but it takes a unusual type of crazy to decide to commit suicide by cop and they are not that crazy.
What Yeager doesn't understand is no right is unlimited. Not the first amendment, not the second.
Scalia makes this very clear in DC v Heller.
Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. For example, the majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues. nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms
by ocean-kat on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 3:22pm
Yeah, looks like his lawyer gave him some lectures on rule of law et. al., and its additionally funny that his lawyer is part of the gummint, being an alderman and all. I see it going down like this: do you want to continue to be a successful businessman or do you want to be Randy Weaver? I love this part, actually a complete retraction of the whole ethos of the original rant: Now, he says, gun advocates need to consider “what we need to be doing right now politically to further our cause.”where politics, not guns, are the solution. Which leads one to the whole irony of the warped thinking in the NRA about the Second Amendment: it's lobbying, not guns, that lets them keep what they got....
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 7:11pm
When the lobbying becomes ineffectual, and the majority, tramples on the rights of the minority. When our liberty, our right to religious freedom, our right to Habeas Corpus, right to privacy and all of our other rights to be whittled away, till they have no substance, then will you understand the foresight of the founding fathers?
I seriously doubt it. rights wasted on a generation, that took it for granted.
If you think the government cares to protect your rights, you are ignorant of why our forefathers delegated and restricted our government in the first place.
by Resistance on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 8:01pm
When President Paris Hilton Jr comes after your grandchild with an armed drone in 2075, I wish him the best of luck responding with the handgun he inherited from you and the ammunition he can scrounge up.
The absurdity of your fixation on guns really came out in those comments elsewhere about protective clothing. Things change!
Once upon a time, weapons didn't include guns, and I'm pretty sure in predicting that the weapons of today will not be the weapons of the future.
The word guns is not in the second amendment! It says arms.
Where, for instance is your outrage about all the regulations required to own a grenade launcher? Why doesn't it bother you that the government makes it hard to get one? They did that long ago, and there was no slippery slope afterwards regarding guns!
Meanwhile, I'd be willing to bet your tax dollars are funding a lot of research at the Pentagon regarding how much training has to change as hand held guns become passe in warfare.
There are very few opining that all weapons should be prohibited, yet you talk as if everyone is saying that. It's absurd. People are talking mainly about high capacity magazines and assault weapons, not "guns" in general. Haven't seen you address that at all! What do you think about that? Not what do you think about "guns" in general!
You also talk as if all guns are sacred going back to the founders, but seem to care little about regulations on any other weapons! Actually, according to your theorizing, grenade launchers, armed drones, anti tank cannons should be covered under "the right to bear arms," no? Why the prejudice for "guns" which could be obsolete in 50 years? If the founders were thinking "automatic assault rifles and high magazines" for all citizens, then for sure they were also thinking anti-tank cannons in your back yard and "if drones are outlawed, only criminals will have drones."
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 9:17pm
You're right criminals do have them, and it's just a matter of time when they may be used against us.
Ask a Pakistani parent, in some remote village, when a drone strike is ordered and the collateral damage, kills and maims innocent teachers and children.
You cry for Sandy Hook Elementary, yet you condone our government, in your name, doing it to others?
Why don't you put yourself in those poor parents shoes, when they bury their little ones. The little girl with the cute eyes and a bow in her beautiful hair, riddled with shrapnel and blown to pieces.
But were Americans; we respect human rights?
Such hypocrisy !!!!
IT IS A CRIMINAL TO MURDER INNOCENT CIVILIANS.
What makes you think our government will continue to respect our rights, if someone with the temperament of Assad, were ever to win the electoral college. Or one who takes advantage of an emergency crisis, and declares Marshal law and decides to stifle dissent, as they did Eugene Debs, charging him with sedition for protesting the war. Getting the courts to agree.
What's to prevent a future Joseph McCarthy under just the right conditions especially if they're manipulated conditions?
We have a recorded history where our government did question peoples patriotism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy
Are we to forget these ugly events in our history and say it could never happen again?
I could wager how many of you bloggers would have stepped forward when the persecution began. ZERO, NADA many would have cowered from the fear of speaking out.
The drone strikes continue and not a word from the majority.
Many of you continue to say impossible and I ask what guarantee do we have, except for our rights?
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 4:02am
You have ignored artappraiser's question about what level of force would count in your mind as an infringement of the rights to bear arms. You have ignored the question when I have asked you about it on other threads. Whenever confronted with the question, you always change the subject or act like it is only a rhetorical question. It is not a rhetorical question.
In view of the changing nature of warfare, especially when one starts with looking at the conditions of the American Revolution, the question is obviously one of the most important issues to be resolved.
by moat on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 3:49pm
From my perspective; not at this time
Y' all can come up with all the "What ifs" but I haven't seen anything to suggest people are arming themselves, with the weapons you speak of.
Your boogeyman scenarios, only serve to promote fear,
"Help me nanny (Mr. G man), there's a man with a bazooka under the bed and in the closet"
"Go back to sleep, your having a bad dream, theres no one there, they're not coming after you"
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 4:07pm
Well what exactly or approximately are you fighting for?
The right to own a pistol, a rifle, a semi-automatic, fully automatic, kevlar-piercing bullets, extended clips, a bazooka in every closet, C4/Semtex explosive?
Just like most were blind to the personal computer in 1979, the Founding Fathers were likely blind to the personal cannon in 1783.
Presumably the right to bear arms doesn't include an F-18 in my garage outfitted with Stinger missiles, or even my own drone.
The government has largely dismantled Constitutionally allotted privacy in the home through the use of heat sensors, sound detectors, monitoring electricity usage, water... The Founding Fathers didn't much foresee sewage interconnects or garbage takeout, so only what physically stays completely in house stands a chance of being protected, and a rubber stamp FISA search warrant is pretty easy to get for those few occasions. Habeas corpus is the general rule still, even with some alarming incursions.
So what's your take on how the 2nd Amendment should be used in 2013, how its reasonably evolved, what is its current function. Certainly flintlocks have gone out of fashion, and I hear bayonets and heavy horses are last year's news, and the prices of tiny cannons has come down more than our forebears could imagine. What would Jefferson suggest? What would Paul Revere or Nathan Hale propose?
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 4:33pm
You did it again. Your reply makes fun of the question without answering it. But the fun is funny in itself because people generally don't worry about bazookas because it is against the law to buy them. The reasons it is against the law to buy them is that they are accepted by enough people to be a weapon that is too powerful for private citizens to own.
If you accept that principle, it is the most obvious question in the world to ask where the borderline is located that separates weapons used for private purposes and those used for common defense. In your many responses to the question, you always cite the word "infringement" as an indication that there is no borderline.
by moat on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 5:01pm
Unfortunately for you, many many many of your fellow citizens, (including many young children,) are having nightmares right now about high-capacity ammunition clips and assault weapons in movie theaters and schools. You need to explain to them why you need them, and also how they would work against the US government's current weaponry should need be (especially given that such weapons have been proven not to work in the recent past against entities like the Gaddafi regime.) To them, they are the same as bazookas under the bed, allowed in the right now.
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 5:30pm
Your question makes me curious. If you, or anyone wishing to respond, could get any law through Congress, including ones which might go to the Supreme Court, what new gun law[s] would you want? How far would you go?
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 4:24pm
erica20 has been doing an admirable job of trying to focus discussion on specific proposals that could pragmatically be developed as pieces of legislation. Those discussions keep turning into arguments that highlight how far apart people are on various sides of the issue. The distances are so large, it doesn't seem to me that we are all even using the same language when we speak about it.
No small portion of the problem with language comes from the wording of the Second Amendment itself. Its wording links the instrument of fighting wars (that it should be the task of local communities) with a guarantee of private ownership of such weapons of war those communities would use while fighting. There is no mention made of how these militias were supposed to or not supposed to stand in relation to federal or state efforts to regulate them. In terms of the conditions of the Rebellion, this looseness of connection made sense. Local communities did provide the core units of both national and state based armies. While the amendment's language obviously expresses a distaste for standing armies it doesn't expressly forbid them. If it did, the first thing a defender of the Second Amendment would do is move to have the Department of Defense ruled as unconstitutional.
The language also does not include the right to use deadly force to defend oneself. The wording certainly doesn't rule out that understanding but it does bring into crisis what the words "shall not be infringed upon" means. Reading it to mean a completely unqualified right only works if the exercise of an individual right is taken to be a completely adequate substitution for the purposes of collective defense.
Now the ruling by the Supreme Court in DC vs. Heller does nothing to confront these problems of the original language but kicks the can down the road. I haven't thought of it yet but I am wondering what form a law would have to take in order for this confrontation to become necessary.
by moat on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 7:57pm
Those discussions keep turning into arguments that highlight how far apart people are on various sides of the issue. The distances are so large, it doesn't seem to me that we are all even using the same language when we speak about it.
I don't think the discussions here highlight how far people are on this issue any more than the discussion between Alex Jones and Piers Morgan show how far apart people are on this issue. Among the American people, and on this website, there is broad consensus for many of the proposals and a strong majority for others. For example:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/19/us-usa-shooting-survey-idUSTRE...
An overwhelming majority of U.S. gun owners, and Americans in general, support tougher measures to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals, the mentally ill and others barred by law from possessing weapons, according to a new survey issued on Tuesday.
Eighty-one percent of gun owners, and 86 percent of all Americans, back requiring personal background checks for all firearms sales, regardless of whether the weapon is bought from a licensed dealer or from a private seller at a gun show, the poll said.
Ninety percent of those polled in both groups also support fixing gaps in government databases that are designed to prevent criminals, mentally disturbed people and others from obtaining guns.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/bs-md-gun-poll-20130113,0,5378...
The poll of 800 registered voters, taken by the Annapolis-based firm OpinionWorks and released to The Baltimore Sun, shows overwhelming majorities favor banning the sale of assault weapons in Maryland and limiting the number of bullets a gun's magazine can hold.
Voters favor the assault weapons ban 62 percent to 35 percent, and they endorse 71 percent to 24 percent limiting gun magazines to 10 bullets, the poll found.
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/318906
In the Quinnipiac University survey, a majority voiced support for national bans on assault weapons and sales of high-capacity magazines.
In the survey, 58 percent supported a national ban on assault weapons and 59 percent favor a prohibition on the sale of high-capacity magazines. Two-thirds oppose allowing teachers to carry concealed firearms in classrooms.
An overwhelming majority of 92 percent said they supported background checks for firearms purchases at gun shows.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 9:33pm
I did not mean to say that the distance between the various sides was in any way a sample or measure of what a majority of people think should happen.
When asked by Lulu what I thought should be proposed, I am looking at what went down in the DC vs. Heller decision and thinking about what new laws would mean in the face of it. On that level, there are problems with the way the law has developed and a very powerful minority that needs to be considered.
That issue to the side, while I have no problem with making measures to make guns less available to criminals, I am nervous about all the pitchforks dancing for a national registry of "mentally ill persons." The process leading to conviction for a crime is a lot less problematic than diagnosing who is "dangerous" mentally and yet we still get the first one wrong a lot of times.
by moat on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:08pm
I too get nervous about a registry of "mentally ill" people. We'll always do what is easiest and cheapest, not what is most effective. I'd like to see more of a focus on resources to help those with problems but that costs more money and is harder to implement. When some mass murderer tells people he's going to go to a school and start shooting, and some have, he's asking for help, he's asking for someone to stop him. That help should be available.
Let's remember though, this registry just stops a person from buying a gun. Its not like they're being involuntarily committed.
I really don't think this minority is as powerful as some think. Its not all gun owners, even a majority of NRA members support some of the gun control legislation being proposed. Its cowardice among the dems (surprise) that causes them to be afraid of crossing the NRA. The problem is there's no down side to pleasing the gun nuts. They are one issue voters, just guns, while those who favor reasonable gun control vote on other issues.
Democrats are never going to get the votes of the extreme gun owners, the survivalists and pseudo vigilantes. They are gone. But democrats can enact reasonable gun control and still get the votes of sportsmen, hunters and other rational gun owners.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:41pm
It will be interesting to watch this all play out. Assuming some piece of legislation passes, I predict that it will be ineffectual in allowing fewer guns in the hands of criminals. Berserkers will also still be able to get a gun and get off a lot of rounds. The best any gun law supporter will be able to say is that a first incremental step has been taken. That is what they will then want it to be, an incremental step with more to come as soon as possible.
Gun rights people will see it almost exactly the same way. They will see that any legislation is intended only as the first incremental step.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 10:56pm
The gun-rights people don't want any legislation. Period. No background checks. No ability to track guns actually used in crimes. No sharing of such information between federal, state and local law enforcement (there's a federal law banning it). They want the Wild West, and they have cowed and bribed politicians and judges in a majority of states to give them exactly that:
http://about.bloomberglaw.com/2013/01/09/border-gun-tracking-fought-by-g...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/us/code-on-shell-casings-sparks-a-gun-...
And this, from an ATF site:
The gun lobby WANTS to facilitate the use of guns in crime, in part because public fear boosts profits. Sales go up when people die; they are actually profiting off Newtown. They are not interested in good-faith negotiations.
by acanuck on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 11:46pm
Wrong place
by Resistance on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 7:31pm
I don't know any NRA member who hasn't said repeatedly; enforce the laws already on the books.
The NRA is in favor of harsh penalties, for those who use guns inappropriately or unlawfully or if a court determines, your rights as a citizen are to be taken away, forfeited
Rather than the Gun Ban nuts continually quoting Scalia, have you ever reviewed, what laws on the books the NRA supports or does it serve your agenda, to ignore the truth, because it serves your purpose better, to spread lies and misinformation?
Why would anybody, especially a liberal even quote Scalia, a conservative judge?
If he ruled that your right to assemble, is to be revoked or your right to privacy shall be eliminated, You telling me, you'd agree?
Scalia stated" Heller did not decide"
@ 1:27
by Resistance on Sat, 01/12/2013 - 7:34pm
What rules does the NRA most enthusiastically support? (Other than guns in schools and a register of the mentally unbalanced?)
by Erica (not verified) on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 9:28pm
Peacock and the Crane
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 1:16pm
Ramona; were you in the meeting with Biden and the NRA, so that you could positively say; The government is not attacking the Second Amendment?
Acanuck You should change your blog to reflect the reality.
The Government and the Gun Ban nut's disarming discourse
From Slate article
While claiming that no policy proposals would be "prejudged,"
this Task Force spent most of its time on proposed restrictions on lawful firearms owners — honest, taxpaying, hardworking Americans….
We will not allow law-abiding gun owners to be blamed for the acts of criminals and madmen. Instead, we will now take our commitment and meaningful contributions to members of congress of both parties who are interested in having an honest conversation about what works — and what does not.."
by Resistance on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 3:05pm
The fight goes on over the bill of rights, civil rights and freedoms, as it always has.I'm sure many people here are active in these battles. Its not won with guns but with people. If enough people are willing to nonviolently fight for rights they will win. If there's not enough people all the guns in the world will not work. Does anyone think gays would get their civil rights quicker if they armed themselves and went to war.
There's a group that calls itself the Rainbow Family.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Gathering
They gather once a year ove the Fourth of July in a national forest, 5,000 to 30,000 people. The forest service for years has tried to stop them. They believe they have a First Amendment right to gather. Congress shall make no law respecting the right of the people peaceable to assemble.
There are frequent confrontations between the Rainbow Family and the police.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hAx5G0I9mU
There's a lot to be said about First Amendment issues and the Rainbow Family's right to gather. Its a complex issue, not a black and white issue. And there is a lot to be said about this video of nonviolent confrontation between the Rainbow Family and the police. I don't share it as an unqualified good against tyranny. Its a complex issue and situation, not black and white. But it did successfully remove the police blockade.
The situation was volatile and dangerous enough without the Rainbow Family being armed. Does anyone think putting AR-15's in the hands of the Rainbow Family during this confrontation would have helped? At any rate guns weren't needed. Nonviolent protest achieved the objective.
If you have the people you don't need the guns, in fact guns hinder achieving the purpose. If you don't have the people all the guns in the world will not work.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 4:48pm
More for your argument here:
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2013/01/09/guns_dont_kill_dictatorsh...
Edit to add: actually, his article got me thinking how handheld weaponry is becoming obsolete as to the 2nd Amendment wording, with every conflict lately seeming to beg for the NATO-style air power to help them out of quagmires of handheld weaponry where civilians are ending up slaughtered one by one and combatants themselves going the tit for tat route; Mali the latest.
Got me thinking as well: when's the last time snipers accomplished some kind of consequence remotely comparable to our Revolutionary war? Sarajevo? It's all terrorism now that gets you the bang for your buck (should mention some techniques of our Revolutionary War are often mentioned as progenitors of that!) Iraq is awash in personal guns but IED's and other bombs are the insurgent weapon of choice, the suicide bomb the most hard to defend against.
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 5:11pm
I have a general rule that I will thoroughly read any link in a comment before I respond to that comment. Unfortunately I have to register on the foreignpolicy site to read your link and I hate doing that. But I haven't registered on a new site for a while so I may do it soon.
That being said its silly to think that any group could gather enough guns to fight off our government if it became tyrannical. What ever one thinks of Waco, or the attack on the MOVE organization in Philly, or Randy Weaver as you mentioned above, its pretty clear that guns will only increase the number of people killed before the group loses.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 01/13/2013 - 9:59pm
Oh I had no idea Foreign Policy had registration requirements, I must have done it long ago, I suspect they just want a quick email address without the confirmation rigamarole, because I just looked and I see it says I am logged in, but don't ever remember doing it, it never logs me out (over a time span of years) I get access to everything and I never get junk email from them or on foreign policy in general (unlike The Nation's for one egregious example, grrrrr on their spamming for subscriptions and "support"). You should do it, it's a fabulous site, written in a style for laymen, by wonks but not wonk style at all (is actually making foreign policy more "popular" because of the style) and I suspect it will take a second--if it didn't, I can't imagine myself having done it.
Anyhow, in case there is the confirmation rigamarole, I will paste the whole piece here, FAIR USE--we are after all, having an intellectual discussion on the topic and it is just a short blog entry and I have promoted to his work plenty of times. He's making a simple point that there's no longer any correlation between personal gun ownership and getting rid of dictatorships or having democracies or people power or "freedom" or civil rights, if there ever was:
by artappraiser on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 2:27am
Second Amend a Doomsday provision,
@13
328 F.3d 567
https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/328/328.F3d.567.01-15098.html
"But, as the panel amply demonstrates, when we're none too keen on a particular constitutional guarantee, we can be equally ingenious in burying language that is incontrovertibly there.
9
It is wrong to use some constitutional provisions as springboards for major social change while treating others like senile relatives to be cooped up in a nursing home until they quit annoying us. As guardians of the Constitution, we must be consistent in interpreting its provisions. If we adopt a jurisprudence sympathetic to individual rights, we must give broad compass to all constitutional provisions that protect individuals from tyranny. If we take a more statist approach, we must give all such provisions narrow scope. Expanding some to gargantuan proportions while discarding others like a crumpled gum wrapper is not faithfully applying the Constitution; it's using our power as federal judges to constitutionalize our personal preferences.
11
The majority falls prey to the delusion — popular in some circles — that ordinary people are too careless and stupid to own guns, and we would be far better off leaving all weapons in the hands of professionals on the government payroll. But the simple truth — born of experience — is that tyranny thrives best where government need not fear the wrath of an armed people. Our own sorry history bears this out: Disarmament was the tool of choice for subjugating both slaves and free blacks in the South. In Florida, patrols searched blacks' homes for weapons, confiscated those found and punished their owners without judicial process.
In the North, by contrast, blacks exercised their right to bear arms to defend against racial mob violence. Id. at 341-42. As Chief Justice Taney well appreciated, the institution of slavery required a class of people who lacked the means to resist. See Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393, 417, 15 L.Ed. 691 (1857) (finding black citizenship unthinkable because it would give blacks the right to "keep and carry arms wherever they went"). A revolt by Nat Turner and a few dozen other armed blacks could be put down without much difficulty; one by four million armed blacks would have meant big trouble.
12
All too many of the other great tragedies of history — Stalin's atrocities, the killing fields of Cambodia, the Holocaust, to name but a few — were perpetrated by armed troops against unarmed populations. Many could well have been avoided or mitigated, had the perpetrators known their intended victims were equipped with a rifle and twenty bullets apiece, as the Militia Act required here. See Kleinfeld Dissent at 578-579. If a few hundred Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto could hold off the Wehrmacht for almost a month with only a handful of weapons, six million Jews armed with rifles could not so easily have been herded into cattle cars.
13
My excellent colleagues have forgotten these bitter lessons of history. The prospect of tyranny may not grab the headlines the way vivid stories of gun crime routinely do. But few saw the Third Reich coming until it was too late. The Second Amendment is a doomsday provision, one designed for those exceptionally rare circumstances where all other rights have failed — where the government refuses to stand for reelection and silences those who protest; where courts have lost the courage to oppose, or can find no one to enforce their decrees. However improbable these contingencies may seem today, facing them unprepared is a mistake a free people get to make only once.
39
As Blackstone describes the "natural right" of an Englishman to keep and bear arms, the arms are for personal defense as well as resistance to tyranny. ………….. A substantial part of the debate in Congress on the Fourteenth Amendment was its necessity to enable blacks to protect themselves from White terrorism and tyranny in the South.53 Private terrorist organizations, such as the Ku Klux Klan, were abetted by southern state governments' refusal to protect black citizens, and the violence of such groups could only be realistically resisted with private firearms. When the state itself abets organized terrorism, the right of the people to keep and bear arms against a tyrant becomes inseparable from the right to self-defense."
by Resistance on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 12:43am
Item 12 is very misleading.
The Germans had already sent 300,000 Polish Jews to death camps.
The armed Jewish uprising did cause some disorientation in the German response, but within a month, the Germans had just gone to razing the buildings one by one. The Warsaw Ghetto and almost all the 100,000 remaining inhabitants were smashed.
There's a horrifying apocalyptic scene at the end of Polanski's The Pianist where we see the resulting demolition and devastation.
The actions of perhaps 750 Jews was heroic, and had effects far past their size, but in the end, it did little except bolster pride and determination to survive at whatever cost.
If the Germans had been in a hurry, it's quite likely they wouldn't have taken a month, though demolition on that scale probably required some planning.
#13 gets to the crux of the matter - totalitarian movements divide and conquer. Whether armed or unarmed, it doesn't take much for a gang to surprise and overwhelm a smaller cadre. Yes, it's possible that everyone could be armed, such as when Shiites and Sunnis turned on each other during the Iraqi civil war, but at that point, there was no moral of "those who were right will win" - it was down to logistics, which kinds of weapons, numbers, opportunity, and who's the most ruthless/best at playing chicken.
Guns would have saved Tutsis against machetes in Rwanda. They were ineffective in the Blitzkrieg, and would have done little against Pol Pot, who was using the same techniques that kept the US & South Vietnam in stitches. Stalin would deported Ukrainians no matter what. Hitler came into power as much by the voting booth and controlling the police & Bundestag laws as he did by illegal means. Native Americans had a moment of respite at Little Big Horn, but every other time they were slaughtered.
There simply is no universal rule on how useful the 2nd Amendment is. Against terrorists, they'll slit your throat in your sleep. Against a less than consolidated movement, they might buy time or full freedom. If it's a flash uprising, it might help, or as in the Indian-Pakistani post-independence riots, it might make the problem just worse. Marauding bands of dudes with guns has been a terror in Latin America, but occasionally allowed a progressive Bolivarian revolt. It's easy to make slogans, it's hard to identify universal application.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 7:28am
First, Peracles, what's cited about above is a dissent in an an appeal case that was denied. It's one judge's opinion.
Second: "Guns would have saved Tutsis against machetes in Rwanda." Except the Hutus wouldn't have used machetes, would they? They'd have used their guns.
The whole American gun-loving culture is built on the flawed premise that your side (the "good guys") can be safe because you have more firepower than the "bad guys." It's not always obvious who's on which side. And people can switch sides in an instant.
by acanuck on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 2:00pm
I didn't pay attention to who wrote it (didn't realize now it was a court dissenting opinion) - doesn't matter to me - either it holds up or doesn't - though a bit strange to cling to a losing position, sometimes the dissenters like in 2000 Gore v. Bush have some extremely valid points. In any case, I made my objections.
I don't know that the Hutus had guns or they would have used them. Even if they had them, if Tutsis had them too, it would have been a fight, distinctly different from having armed Hutu gangs going door to door seeking out undefended Tutsis to hack to pieces.
Even if we don't like the spread of guns, we don't have to take a ridiculous position that there's no place they can save someone's skin. I gave enough caveats and opposite examples to make the point clear that I don't think guns are a cure-all or even wise most of the time. Still, there are historical examples where I'd be happy to have that Glock or Gatlin gun.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 2:43pm
Yeah, the Rwandan bloodbath would have been so much more efficient if both sides had been better armed. Reread my third paragraph, please. That's the point.
by acanuck on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 5:45pm
In this case there might not have been a blood bath if the victim or both sides had been armed. Many people say a few armed US or French troops could have stopped the massacre, no? As it was, one side was utterly defenseless, sitting ducks.
Really, you're traipsing into Abusrdistan, taking the line that weapons never helped anyone, never provided a defense?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 6:00pm
So what? I hope your not implying that dissent, is always wrong; because if you are, you prove the point, of why "WE " need the 2nd amendment.
Is this acanuck's position "Dissent is to be ignored or prohibited in the National debate "??
As the dissenting view proved, the wording was clearly ignored and the dissenting view proved it. But it is expected from Judges who ignore the Constitution and favor "constitutionalize "their own personal preferences
Case in point
If the dissenting view point had been adopted, It is possible the Civil War could have been avoided,
The dissenting view should have prevailed.
It’s obvious to those, who’ll defend the 2nd amendment; that people like acanuck or Chief Justice Roger B. Taney; when they are “none too keen on a particular constitutional guarantee,”
wethey can be equally ingenious in burying language that is incontrovertibly there.Or just ignore the evidence, thinking themselves the wiser without it?
IMHO acanuck, you don't know the Law, nor do you want to, because it goes contrary to your agenda.
by Resistance on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 2:45pm
A dissenting opinion is not always wrong; the U.S. Supreme Court is notable for disregarding its own previous rulings. But it does mean the dissenter's argument failed to persuade his fellow judges, so it sets no precedent.
It would have been honest to make the nature of the quote clear in your original comment.
by acanuck on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 5:34pm
It is as Peracles pointed out to you.
The soundness of the argument is what I found appealing, whether others agree.
Most of the time, many lazy readers don't care to review the evidence, their minds are already closed.
Besides I provided the link; do I have to do all the work for you?
by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 01/14/2013 - 7:09pm