William K. Wolfrum's picture

    Obama releases long-form birth certificate: Birthers won't have any of it

    If President Barack Obama understood conspiracy theories, he wouldn't bother releasing a copy of his long-form birth certificate to placate Birthers. Because there's one thing you have to know about these types of conspiracies - facts just make them crazier and more loyal to the conspiracy.

    But Obama has sent out copies of his birth certificate already:

     

    Will this be enough to stop the Birther madness? Of course not. After all, releasing this now is just the sort of thing a communist from Kenya would do.

    --WKW

    Crossposted at William K. Wolfrum Chronicles

    Topics: 

    Comments

    I agree it will only make the Birthers even more crazed, but it will also make the front people for the issue like Trump and Palin appear even more whacked to the independents and moderate Republicans.


    Obama took 3 years to release the long form. Great damage control there, buddy. My, that was tough.


    Actually until Trump turned up on the scene it had basically disappeared from the national media.  The only ones talking about it were the crazies on their own little websites, etc.  Kind of what one would have expected.  So it wasn't as if this had been three years of Obama taking PR hit after PR hit because of the Birther issue, and now decided to release it.  But combine Trump with the beginning of the 2012 campaign season, it was probably decided to deal with the right from the start.  From this perspective, they are handling the situation fine. 


    Actually until Trump turned up on the scene it had basically disappeared from the national media.

    AT, this is demonstratively false. Google it. Use the timelie feature - it lets you break things down by date.


    The Google timeline doesn't disagree with what AT said, as it includes stuff from comments made by random bloggers. That said, I do think AT is overstating his position.


    Maybe another way of looking at this.  Before Trump, if you were a political strategist providing consultation to Obama, would you recommend that he consider the issue important to address with the approaching election cycle?  Of course it has never disappeared from the web, but the typical low to moderate information voter (who doesn't just watch Fox News and thus would never vote for Obama anyways), wouldn't be seeing anything of significance about this issue, aside from the occassional reports that there still are birthers out there.  Just as one sees occassional reports on the 9/11 conspiracies, or how UFOs are being linked to JFK's assassination. 

    So...until Trump arrived, the political strategy would have been to just let the Birthers be Birthers because they weren't doing any political damage, and in fact one could argue they were hurting the GOP by association.  Because of the credibility Trump has (rightly or wrongly given), things changed when he started his little publicity tour. 

    One could argue that he should have still ignored the issue.  But one has to recognize that the PR landscaped changed with Trump's arrival on the scene.


    Before Trump, every GOP candidate was doubting Obama was born in the US, but it wasn't an issue until Trump came along? Trump has credibility? As what, "you're fired"?

    It's been an issue since Obama was running against Hillary. The polls showed it long ago. While finally Barry got a clue - house is on fire, maybe I should put it out. As KGB notes, pulling out the long form that supposedly didn't exist so he couldn't do it before. Doesn't that confuse things a bit more? great for credibility.


    While finally Barry got a clue - house is on fire, maybe I should put it out.

    It looks like you're applying Hanlon's razor ("Never attribute to malice to that which can be adequately explained by incompetence") where I might not. A more cynical approach would be to wonder if there's some other news event he's trying to get the media to ignore.


    Which is exactly what they were saying on Uygur's show today. No one is talking Bernanke, they're busy with Trump.


    Not to go around and around on this, but in one political strategy sense it doesn't matter what "every GOP candidate" is saying if the national media - ie the media the low to moderate information voters watch or read -- isn't either covering or not making a big deal about it.  That was the difference with Trump.  There was a moment when every outlet was trying to get his interview with him and allowing him to have the airwaves.  The other day it think it Chris Matthews played a clip of Jeopardy where none of the contestants could give the question to the answer who was majority leader in the House.  Poor Eric. 

    Apparently you believe someone has credibility if you believe they deserve credibility.  Trump is a joke in my eyes.  But he is a celebrity and we all know how Americans are with celebrity.  I mean who care that Oprah chose to support Obama during the 2008 campaign. Politically, what credibility did she have really.  But it was a big deal.  Whether you like it or not, Oprah is politically potent.  Moreover, the other day I was listening to people on a call-in show talking about how smart he was not only because he was rich, but that he was able to become rich, lose it all, then get rich again (regardless of the actual truth in that scenario).

    Apparently you also believe that if an issue continues to float about that it inherently then a significant issue that needs to be addressed by a politician. I guess you think the Clintons should have continued on a regular basis address the Foster issue since that is still out there being talked about by conservative wingnuts. 

    As it stands (as far as I know - willing to see evidence to contrary( there is no evidence they had it in their possession all this time.  So judgment based on the idea they had it but chose not to produce it is faulty. 

    In fact, here is WH statement:

    "The President believed the distraction over his birth certificate wasn’t good for the country. It may have been good politics and good TV, but it was bad for the American people and distracting from the many challenges we face as a country. Therefore, the President directed his counsel to review the legal authority for seeking access to the long form certificate and to request on that basis that the Hawaii State Department of Health make an exception to release a copy of his long form birth certificate. They granted that exception in part because of the tremendous volume of requests they had been getting." 

    What you might need to do is show how easy it would have been for Obama back when he was just a candidate to make Hawaii make the exception (before the tremendous volume).  But as long as that statement is valid, then there is nothing confusing about the actions of the president on this matter.


    Uh, Hawaii released his long form on their own? Or Obama asked them to?


    Obama requested a copy only on April 22, 2011 (a copy of the letter here). And that request was then met immediately.

    If only they had thought of sending that request a couple of years ago. Though I'm sure ATrope will think of some reason that was just ... unimaginable...


    Well there's the world's most believable excuse... ;-)


    Not good enough, Obey.  Too hard.  Too stupid.  Shouldn't be an issue.  Shouldn't play into the hands of wingnuts, no matter that *our* wingnut Tweety Matthews brings it up all the time.  (So do I and Pat Buchanan...)   ;oP 


    Maybe they could have made the request, but the thing to keep in mind this wasn't like going in and asking the register's office for one's transcripts.  Under the law, as I understand it, the request under normal circumstances would not be granted.  And Hawaii is stating now that the only reason they relented was because of all the requests being made, a reason that didn't exist "a couple of years ago."  But I suppose Hawaii s just covering Obama's back on this one.  All part of the conspiracy.


    I'd guess if the request came from the White House, there wouldn't be a problem.  Also, the dude does command the 101st Airborne, and all that.  ;o)


    they relented was because of all the requests being made, a reason that didn't exist "a couple of years ago." 

    Obama made exactly one request, as far as I know. So that ONE request is why they relented I presume. The rate of third-party requests on the part of the Birther movement started in 2008, increased iin 2009, got the support of moderate GOP candidates in the Midterms of 2010, and now have also the support of one NYC real-estate tycoon. Despite what you seem to think, the Birther movement wasn't born yesterday. So the "reason" has existed for a long time. The relevant question is, would they have acceded to his request three or two or one year ago, when it became clear that this meme wasn't going away? It seems obvious to me that by at least mid 2009 it was clear this movement was only getting stronger.

    There has been unrelenting pressure to release his birth certificate going back three years. My guess is that Obama is releasing it now because his approval ratings are getting dangerously low and this kind of story will only grow as popular disenchantment with him spreads. But in any case, this is clearly a choice, now, on the part of Obama to release it.

    Not that I really care. It's just another poorly handled PR situation, imho. And you and others are coming out with the usual circular argument as an excuse for the incompetence:

    He didn't do it because he couldn't. And we know he couldn't do it because ... well ... he didn't.


    He didn't do it because he couldn't. And we know he couldn't do it because ... well ... he didn't. And he didn't do it because he couldn't, we know that. And obviously, we know he couldn't do it because ... well ... he didn't. Though, in his favor, he didn't do it because he couldn't. Though it's just damned hard for the critics to deny that he couldn't do it because ... he didn't. What I'm saying is, he didn't do it because he couldn't. And we know he couldn't do it because ... well ... he didn't. Perhaps you don't understand logic, son - he didn't do it because he couldn't. And it's not like there's much debate on this, we know he couldn't do it because ... he didn't. The evidence is in, it's clear, and the debate should be ended - he didn't do it because he couldn't. And like I always used to tell my mama, in reference to my younger brother Darryl, he couldn't do it because ... well ... he didn't. 

    I see no way to break the power of this logic. It's like physics. Or chocolate.

    Things that just... are.


    Exactly!

    I call it Neo-calvinism.


    There is the other side: we know he could do it because...well..he could have.  And so on. Of course, I am making my argument based on the statement of the state employees of Hawaii.  What is your evidence based on?


    I am quite aware the birther movement has been around all these years. Nothing I have said contradicts that.  Now I have no idea what communications went on between Obama's team and Hawaii since 2008 on this matter.  My guess is that you or anyone else here don't either.   

    The main point is that the impact or perceived impact by the strategists of the birther movement has not been consistent since 2008.  One can point out that the birther movement in 2008 was so effective that Obama was elected president of the united states.  And from the extent that I have followed his approval ratings over the years, there isn't much evidence that his drop over time has to do with how strong this movement is.  I would say the the "strength" of the movement has more to do with disapproval with Obama, not the other way around.  But if you want to take the position that the impact of the birther movement on the opinions of non-birther voters has been some consistent PR crisis the Obama team failed to address go ahead.  But as you said you don't really care.

    So in the end, this is just another way for those disenchanted or disapproving with Obama to pile on the "look at the awful PR job" bandwagon, which has the implication that if he can't do that well then this is evidence he isn't doing other things well.  As they say, haters are gonna hate.

    Finally there is nothing circular about my argument.  Based on the evidence, all we know is that they released what information was available to them by the state of Hawaii.  When you have evidence that they consciously chose not to obtain the document which would have been easily handed over to them let me know.  For the time being, I will take the word of the state employees of Hawaii. After he was elected president, a legitimate argument could be made that the birther movement was a non-factor in the overall game and not worth dealing with too much, and then Trump entered as the 2012 campaign approached and changed the landscape. 


    Like I said - the question is, would Hawaii have released the birth certificate if Obama had requested it earlier? Unless there is an indication that Obama has requested it before and had the request refused, you have no evidence. You have an official saying he released it because ... he received a request. There is also no evidence that the number of third-party requests has risen recently. As for evidence that the official would have released it last year or the year before, I think deference to the President on a matter of national importance - where suspicions regarding high treason are endorsed by a number of prominent Senators and others - is a reasonable consideration when providing a waiver regarding the release of such documents.

    Beyond that, I have no strong claim regarding why Obama decided to take up the issue now. I was just speculating. But I was speculating on his reasons for moving now, because I consider it a choice on his part. If you think it was out of his hands, this speculation is moot.


    The core problem here is the birthers. The people who deserve to be attacked are the birthers. If there are newspapaer reports of a live birth in1961 and there is a certificate of live birth available from the state, then you categorize the birthers as idiots. When Trump goes on with network news journalists and the journalists do not refute the brther nonsense from the beginning, we create a news story. The birthers are still idiots, the media just got played because the media are incompetent.

    The focus on the diotcy of the birthers and the incompetence of the media is important because it helps define the general perception of the public. The auto bailout was "bad" according to the media, until you look at current stock performance. Will the press give  mea culpa, no. The Ryan budget is a bold attempt to decrease the debt, until you look at the numbers.

    We have to call out the idiot winuts be they birthers or pseudo-economists. We have to call out  and the incompetent medi because, while some may suggest it's Obama's problem in how his message comes across, it's a national problem on how a lazy and incomptent media gets played on a host of issues from the environment, to women's issues to a host of other topics. We alll hve to be in the fight to condemn how our present press corps operates.

    Put your animosity for Obama aside and realize that how the press deals with hm is how the press deals with problems important to you.


    Yes. Birthers are idiots.

    Yes. The press is complicit in their idiocy.

    But then there are also in-house issues of strategy which I think are worth discussing, and failures worth pointing out so they are not repeated.

    I have no animosity for Obama at all. I wish him the best as President and in life. I do however think as president he is getting a lot of things wrong. I don't think mindless chearleading does anyone any good here. We're not handing out little league gold stars for effort, right?


    If Republicans are getting pummeled by their own constituents at townhall meetings and the press doesn't report that fact, the press is acting as active public relations officials for the GOP. If the press uses Obamacare for the health care bill and does not use Vouchercare for the Ryan plan, then the press is biased. What is the best way to break the broken link? Going after the White House does nothing. The press is not telling the complete story. The press is the major problem.

    The country was ill-informed on the run up the the Bush War. The country is ill-informed on climate change. The country is ill-informed on how other countries view Gitmo. The country is ill-infomed on the Fascism being practiced by Republican Governors in a host of states. The press is the the core of the mass ignorance.

    Your solution to the massive dereliction of duty by the press is to attack the Obama PR approach. ou keep up that attack and watch the press core sleep through attacks on union rights, women's rights, etc. I'll keep my anger focused where it needs to be. I think that you are missing the big picture.

     


    The country was extremely well informed leading up to Bush's Iraq war - it chose to ignore inconvenient truths to go for pre-emptive revenge. Global warming? What more do they need? Just a thread to cling onto insane theories to keep from changing.

    We're lazy, arrogant and mean - bad attitude for a superpower.


    (Grin.)  Simmer down now, ya'll.  Emptywheel has it juuuuust right, IMO.


    Trope, I swear you will argue anything. The hospital releases birth certificates when requested by the person involved, NOT because of the quantity of requests from Joe Psycho Public. Really. It just really is not standard practice for hospitals and such to release records like this because of hounding by mobs. They simply stated that they hoped the number of requests (by the insane mobs) would now go down. And ya, I think Barack Obama could have made a reasonable case for why he wanted his certificate released. Esp considering for years now, the other piece has been up on his web-site.

    So. They could release it, they just needed to hear from the person involved. If he needed to make a case, running for President would have covered it off fairly nicely - given his posting of his other certificate. HE JUST DIDN'T REQUEST IT BEFORE.

    Can we please, in the name of God, try to argue about whether it was great timing by him, or shitty timing, or whatever, but get the hell away from this sort of idiocy where we can't even admit that it was UP TO HIM? Do you not get the joke Obey's making here, about how you're arguing? Where you literally will not admit that ANYTHING is possible for Obama, unless and until he actually DOES it? As in, the guy couldn't even have requested his birth certificate before precisely now, that even that tiny power was out of his hands?


    My original point was focused that Trump changed the Birther/PR landscape. That is, until Trump it was really a PR issue regarding the non-birther voters Obama would need to be re-elected. The whole assessment of whether he should have done this or that, what was done behind the scenes or not done behind the scenes is still a crapshoot.  No one here knows who talked to who etc.  In the end, much of the assessments that it was a crappy PR job is dependent upon the idea that he could have produced the long form along and chose not to.  It is also dependent on the idea that it was a PR crisis for the entire three years and has chosen not to really address it.   

    The WH said this:

    Therefore, the President directed his counsel to review the legal authority for seeking access to the long form certificate and to request on that basis that the Hawaii State Department of Health make an exception to release a copy of his long form birth certificate*. They granted that exception in part because of the tremendous volume of requests they had been getting.

    * so we are talking the DOH not a hospital.  Now if you have some evidence the hospital had a copy of the long form and that all Obama had to do was request it, I would be interested.  Until then, I will go on the reality that it was the DOH not a hospital that the form. 

    No one has offered any evidence (some statement from an employee of Hawaii for instance or that there isn't legal hurdles that have to be overcome to get the long form) that this is not true.  Until someone can offer something to undermine this other a statement of "he could have if he had really wanted to" I will continue to believe that did not have access to the document. 

    Now one could argue he could have tried harder.  But then this comes back to the argument that it was a big PR crisis.  Maybe they could have gotten the exception sooner.  It was possible for Obama to get it sooner.  But was the effort worth it? Wouldn't that have redrawn attention back?  Who knows what the strategy was in the minds of Obama team.  The point here is that the document was just going to be handed over, an exception had to be made, special counsels had to be put into play, etc. etc. 

    So we are back to point that if the birthers really weren't that much a threat, then all this effort seems kind of silly.  Who would have thought someone like Trump would take off with it.  Maybe the strategists should have thought that, and taken measures sooner. 

    But in the end, if one believes it was not handled well from a PR strategy point of view, I am not sure exactly what that says other than that.  I guess some people just have hard admitting that someone like Trump can have such an influence on the national scene.


    Great, cool, fine.


    I can't speak for moderates - I believe they are an imaginary projection of Third Way Democrats used to justify acting like Republicans - but as an independent this actually does raise two questions.

    #1 Didn't Obama say on several occasions that this document was no longer in existence - that it would be impossible to produce - when he was floating around that short-form thing? Why the hell did he say that?

    #2 Why didn't he just release this damn thing in 2008 and save America all the nonsense? It seems like he's intentionally milking the issue to me. The existence of this document and the way he's goosed things seems to make him nearly as complicit as the birthers themselves in perpetuating the issue. This has been going for years - and now a challenge is raised by someone as politically impotent as The Donald and suddenly O gives in? Bullshit.

    In all, the birthers actually just came up a few notches in my book: they were right, Obama did have a document that could be released. He was just fucking with their heads and refused to release it. While it doesn't prove what they thought it would this certainly blows the argument I used to defend him right out of the water. I was wrong - this thing does exist; I've just got to admit it, Obama got me again. Point: birthers.


    I consider someone who is able to have a significant impact on the national dialogue through the media as politically potent.  I don't think Sarah Palin has a snowball's chance of actually getting elected president, but there was a time when she was quite politically potent for this reason (it has been somewhat diminished since the Arizona shooting comments).  I'm not sure how you define political potency, but at the moment Trump definitely is potent, regardless of his ultimate ability to get elected. 

    And I guess according to Ramona, they had to get special permission to use the long form.  But who knows what has gone on behind the scenes.  Maybe you've never worked in a bureaucracy before, but from my experience the fact it took someone this long to actually find a copy of a document created long before computers and electronic bases doesn't surprise me.  And that Obama didn't want to make Hawaii state government (who had deal with all of the demands from the Birthers) look bad while the search was on doesn't surprise me either.

    So it is quite possible that even though he can produce it now, he wasn't able to produce earlier, and that Obama and his team had no idea if they would ever be able to produce it.  Talk about a PR disaster: saying that you can produce the long form and then coming back and saying oops we can't.

    I'm not quite sure how to deal with your "moderates" claim.  Are you saying that basically people are just ideologically either on the far left or the far right? 


    "it is quite possible"?  Oh Jesus, give me another "Obama get out of jail free" card, assume playing eleventy-dimension chess.

    If there's a reason he could do it today and couldn't for the last 3 years, well, shouldn't he explain?

    Like how did Hillary's Rose law firm records just suddenly show up in the closet one day? These things never put an issue to bed, do they?


    So you're going on the record and saying the state of Hawaii is going on the record and telling a lie that they only reason they are releasing it now, which they would not do before, is because of the amoung of requests being made by the birthers?


    Give me at least a reference to your excuse. Anyway, gone for a few days, won't be able to respond.


    This bit of yours implies a MASSIVE COVER-UP, involving state and administration officials, Trope.

    So it is quite possible that even though he can produce it now, he wasn't able to produce earlier, and that Obama and his team had no idea if they would ever be able to produce it.

    Because we already have statements from the head of the Hawaii Health Department that she had seen the document in question back in 2008:

    As the top Hawaiian official in charge of state health records in 2008, when the issue of Obama's birth first arose, Fukino said she thought she had put the matter to rest. Contacted by NBC, Fukino expanded on previous public statements and made two key points when asked about Trump's recent comments.

    The first is that the original so-called "long form" birth certificate — described by Hawaiian officials as a "record of live birth" — absolutely exists, located in a bound volume in a file cabinet on the first floor of the state Department of Health. Fukimo said she has personally inspected it — twice. The first time was in late October 2008, during the closing days of the presidential campaign, when the communications director for the state's then Republican governor, Linda Lingle (who appointed Fukino) asked if she could make a public statement in response to claims then circulating on the Internet that Obama was actually born in Kenya.

    So, imho, this is just rank PR incompetence. Because the only other option is .. a massive conspiracy, which is a theory I'm presuming you don't want to endorse.


    What do people have against massive conspiracy? That's what Wall St is, what Congress is, what the White House is. Besides, I find good conspiracies really add zest to my day. I'm with Trope. Obama hid it. Or made it up. Or killed the woman who ran the hospital, and replaced her with a Muslim. Well, part-Muslim. Part space person.

    Okay I've learned a little bit about this today - not claiming to be an expert on the Birther issue.  Apparently Hawaii had it but they weren't allowed to actually produce it, it seems - could only state it existed. Which is weird but not the craziest law on the books.  Only after a special exception was granted by the state has Obama been allowed to show it.  So even though it existed, they couldn't produce it, and could only hope people took the state employee's word for it. So the point here is that Obama and his team did the best they could in terms of producing stuff during the campaign.


    Yeah, this won't do anything but add to their mythology.

    On a related note, have you seen this gem: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/26/poll-finds-most-americans-uncertain-of-trumps-birthplace/ ?


    Thanks for this:)

    Any news on The Donald releasing his report cards or college rejection letters...


    There's a Dagblog thread on the Nate Silver piece with some fun comments here.

    And re: Any news on The Donald releasing his report cards or college rejection letters...

    Yes indeedy do:

    Trump to Release Financial, Tax Information at the 'Appropriate Time', ABC News, Michael Falcone - ‎49 minutes ago‎ Laughing


    So who's going to believe anything coming from the White House?  Anyone can make up a long form birth certificate.  They can even create a phony seal.  Where's the proof?????


    No 'proof' will convince them. That's the point of the post. The ask for the birth certificate, it's released, they demands the long form, it's released. They'll just find a way to dismiss it (probably saying more or less what you just did) and ask for something else.

    It's a stupid cycle of placation that Obama was stupid to have fed - he's only added legitimacy to it.


    I don't agree that it was stupid of Obama to feed into this.  It was a smart move, though a little late.  Having said that, it's just nuts that our president has been forced to produce an extremely personal document in order to try and quiet down the crazies.

    As they're saying right now, he had to get special permission from Hawaii in order to show the long form.  Hawaii uses the short form for identification and it's legal.  That should have been enough for any sane person, but of course we have a president who doesn't fit the mold so it's okay to question everything about his legitimacy. 

    We had better be looking at long form birth certificates for every single public official from now on.  If we don't, we're accepting that it's okay to treat Obama as if he actually is "the other".


    It wouldn't have mattered if he's released the long form certificate the day after the first Birther said he was a Kenan. They'd've just done what they have been doing: come up with a new requirement for proof.

    The timing of this (as you imply in your most recent comment below) is probably driven by Trump's talk show rounds. It may shut up Trump, who I am willing to bet is only a Birther cynically - it was an easy way to get attention. I don't think he sincerely doubts Obama is a natural born citizen, so he's not invested in the movement in the same way the True Believers are. So, in that sense it might be a semi-good move, but making it before Trump re-fanned the flames of the issue would have probably been a /worse/ move. Maybe, possibly. :)


    My prediction:  Trump will take credit for Obama's release of the long form.  If he (Trump) hadn't made such a fuss it never would have happened.  Just watch.


    Ahem. . .note the time on my prediction.  Do I know my numbskulls or what?  (Oh, wait. . .you all predicted the same thing?  Aha.  I'm in good company.)


    Donald Chump speaks to the world: "Where is the Placenta???? I have my placenta!!!! Where is the footprint????? I have my baby footprint!!! Let's test his DNA to make sure he is a human!!!

    Where are his grades.... he couldn't buy his way into Harvard so he isn't Harvard material, like my son-in-law Jared Kusher,

    The copy says it is certified... certified by whom???, We won't be mollifed by what is obviously a hoax!!!!!"


    Wow, you're pretty good at that. The GOP campaigns are staffing up. Maybe you should apply for press secretary or something! Wink


    Forever on, from this day, he shall be Donald Chump! hahahah


    I thought this was a Wolfie joke until I hit The Beast. Damn!

    No this is will not do it.

    They will want medical records.

    Now 'they' want all his report cards since kindergarten!

    It might seem trite but how many roads must this guy walk down?

     


    Whatever roads you're talking about, I would like to see them.


    I'll believe it when I read it.  And I can't even read.


    Art Appraiser has been requested to teach some of us that particular skill, Destor.  ;o)  'As soon as possible' was implied, but not spelled out.

    A special class for dyslexics, by Dog!


    Sorry that will have to wait until I fix my dsylecix typign porblem.


    .AA, neht litnu tiaw lliw eW


    ¡ɹǝʌǝɹoɟ ʇıɐʍ ʇ,uɐɔ sn ɟo ǝɯos


    How you do dat, Atheist?  Dang; I thought I was bein' clever!  You got game, son!


    Enter any text you like into here: http://www.fliptext.org/

    Then, copy and paste!


    The Donald will no doubt use this as an example of how nothing ever gets done in this world until he steps in. Surprised


    In a recent USA Today/Gallup poll only 38% said Obama was definitely born in the US. 18% felt that Obama was probablt born in the US. The numbers lookk bad until you realize that only 43% of those polled felt that Donald Trump was definitely born in the US and 20% felt that Trump was probably born in the US. Nate Silver says the Trump results are not an April Fool's joke.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2011-04-25-trump-president-poll.htm

    If you are an Obama democrat, you are amazed at how gullible the media and a significant number of the public appear. If you are a birthe, you will stll not be satisfied o will now question how Obama got into Columbia and Harvard. If you just dislike "Barry's" policies, the release of the long form now demonstrates the President's incomptence in handling a PR issue.

    Life goes on.


    Can't you be an Obama Democrat and still be amazed by incompetence in handling a PR issue?


    It was not a PR issue for me, it was a test of common sense. Jerome Corsi has a book coming out from World Net Daily, a wingnut operation, entitled "Where's the Borth Certificate?" Thebook will likely be #1 on release.

    Given the responses about whether Trump was born in the US, I see no evidence of incompetence.

     


    So if it passes your acceptance, it's not an issue of PR. Well, that's a universal litmus test.

    Perhaps a new term - RR. RMRD Relations.


    RR works for me. The carnival barkers will now say that since his father is Kenyan, Obama is Kenyan , or British, or African,etc. This is a non-issue. The media made this a story. Trump is race-baiting clear and simple. Trump is now questionig Obama's intellect. You do not realize how disgusting it is to see this African-American President have to show papers to prove that he (Obama) is qualified. Jason Capehart is preparing a column addresing this feeling among Blacks in the Washington Post tomorrow. Just showing my Black angst.

    As we argue about this nonsense, Republican Governors continue their attack on unions, reproductive rights, etc.

    A more pressing question, is whether Progressives and elected Democratic officials make Republicans stand up and be counted as supporting the Ryan budget. Harry Reid should be forced to make the Senate vote on the Ryan plan.


    Maybe 'Jonathan Capehart'?  Seriously, they've done it to every Dem Prez for awhile.  Can't stop to list the crap-slinging.  'Clinton had Vince Foster murdered'.  Crap like tha; maybe others can fill in more.  Love children. all that.


    The argument has gone from asking Obam to show his citizenship papers to questioning how the magna cum laude graduate "got into" Columbia and Harvard. Sarah palin says that Bill Ayers wrote Obama's memoir. This video from Jack & Jill politics may provide perspective. The speaker is one of the co-founders of the website:

    http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2011/04/video-with-president-obamas-b...

    The attack on Obama feels different.


    When I heard the Trump bullshit over Obama's grades and affirmative-action guess to get admitted to Harvard, I thought of the calls to compare Kerry's and Bush's college grades.  Pretty funny altogether that Bush's were just a tad higher than W's.

    I hear Jack's frustration, yours, and others, but I also read Jack about Obama selling Van Jones down the river.  I wonder if he had loomed large and defended him with his big megaphone, how different things would look now.  Of course, that would likely have meant that he would fight for anything much other than the ACA...so there's that.

    I just would not want Jack to think that assholes like Trump are holding up progress on black and other color/racial acceptance; this may just be the last hurrah before the old freaks die off.  I hope. 


    Nothing would keep the race-baiters from attacking Obama. As noted above the focus of the attack has shifted. The media provided the fuel for Trump's message to have impact. People who said that GW Bush and the US government were behind the 911 attacks, were dismissed as loon. The White House did not have to do the heavy lifting on squashing the rants, the media did the bulk of the debunking.

    The African-American President of the United States asked to present documents. This is a sad day for the country. I understand you wish that Trump is a symbol of the dying gasp of the racists, but I don't think that these evil people are going away anytime soon. The media plays and active and supportive role for Trump. Media needs to be held to account. Nobody is going to sit back and wait for these loons to die off. Trump and his cohorts need to be challenged and ridiculed today.

    Christiane Armanpour let Franklin Graham go on a full out birther rant on ABC without any real push back. ABC and Armanpour need to be called out. NBC needs to be called out on supporting Trump. These are some of he same NBC exec who probably thought that Don Imus was funny. It took the action of African-Americans within NBC to let those executives know that not everybody in the NBC audience got Imus' jokes, especially those jokes with a racial tinge.

    Trump is an embarrassment. He needs to be dealt with now! He can spend his last days living in ridicule rather than having a platform to cater to racists.


    Trump needs to be Flashmobbed!  And that's sad to hear about Amanpour; cripes.  I think a lot of what got Trump the media attention was that Americans and American media love a) royalty and b) the uber-wealthy.  Oh: and scandals about either even more.  Well, smack him the hell around in your dreams tonight.  Maybe I just need to think they wll go away; but try not to let them define you.  You're pissed; that's way better than sad, IMO.  G' night.


    Harry Reid doesn't need to be forced. He intends to do just that, to make the Senate vote on the Ryan plan.

    As to team Obama's PR skills , they're not good enough. And today was another example. Obama started the press conference by whining about the net works unwillingness on other occasions to provide air time.That was yesterday.  But as a result  when All Things Considered  introduced the story the lede was "sooner or later all Presidents complain about the press"..

    He stepped on his own story.

    And a significant part of what followed was a discussion of whether Obama was justified in complaining about the media's handling of the story over the last 3 years. The story should have been  the Republicans cynical willingness to mislead the voters by passively endorsing this absurd story.

    I only learned in the last couple of days about the notices of his birth in the Honolulu papers. And still just words. I went on line to find copies., which I shouldn't have had to do. They should have been blown up to billboard size and tacked to the  wall of the press conference room.

    Furthermore he shouldn't be the spokeman. For dozens of reasons: he's cheapening the currency; he needlessly forfeits deniability should  he make a slip of the tongue.

    The whole Rahm Emmanuel period was almost an endorsement of the Republican story line that this is an Administration of  egotistical  wise guys. Whereas Boehner comes across as the town druggist , competent but with no airs.  

    The Gulf Oil spill was another example of  a good story that was turned in to a bad one by responses to the press which were always a day late ( and a dollar short!)

    The Chicago tean just don't get PR and because  they don't get it, they don't understand that they don't get it. I think I detect an attitude of  " the press aren't good enough, they don't show the great things we're doing." Yawn. Cry babbies. It's not the job of the press to make them look good. It's their job to present their accomplishments to them so clearly that the facts will speak for themselves.

    Today's FT's lead editorial was filled with fulsome praise for the Chrysler bail out. Did you know?


    We are talking about Harry Reid remember, let's see if he keeps his back bone.

    I did know about Chrysler. I also knew that Ford had a tremendous quarter.

    ACORN got taken down because the press is gullible. The Actions of the Michigan Governor in Benton Harbor is not well known because the press focuses on nonsense rather than issues. The job of the press is to inform. When the public got to see the Ryan budget on their own, a significant number rebelled. The press presented the Ryan plan as a "bold" move. The press is clueless.


    Certainly on economic matters it's clueless.. Even at NPR  with respect both  to the entitlements and the supposed threat of the deficits the republican view has become the conventional wisdom. You hear it in the casual use of  the term economic disaster- not referring to the real economic disaster which occured under Obama's predecessor but as categorization of our current stage in the brilliant recovery over which Obama has presided, one sign of which is the return of Chrysler from its near death experience.

    Lianne Hanson on Sunday mornings remarked that she was one of a group of NPR employees who signed a complaint to management when the NPR fundraiser was accused of the heinous crime of being critical of the Republicans.In her subsequent condemnation of the doctoring of the tape to misrepresent what he actually said it didn't occur to her to wonder "why shouldn't he have been critical of the Republicans ?" Reporting the news accurately doesn't require you to check your personal beliefs at the door.But apparently -not to my surprise- Hanson feels that way ( except for her own unthinking acceptance of that econmic conventional wisdom.)

    Marketplace is a nightly endorsement of the views of corporate america- which doesn't bother me, what else is new?- but why then should Lianne get her knickers in a twist because a fund raiser-as the result of misrepresentation - was appeared to have views that are a mirror image of the marketplace team?

    I'm not withdrawing from support of NPR , nothing's perfect, just observing that it is almost as gullible as the rest of the media.


    I saw this. hahaha

    How much can polls really tell us?

    Try this question Mr. Gallop:

    Do you believe in ice cream?

    There has got to be 15% of respondents who would reply: I don't know.

    I am sure there would be another 10% who would reply: No

     

     


    There should be a poll on how many believe the Earth is flat.


    At last we can retire the term, BIRTHERS, and replace it with a more fitting one:

     

    PLACENTAS!   (It has more of a ring to it than "AFTER-BIRTHERS," which is what anyone is who claims to still doubt the President's legitimacy.)


    I'm going to steal your "After-Birthers" line. I will give you credit :)


    Well I hereby render unto CVille the Dayly Line of the Day Award for this here Dagblog Site,

    given from all of me to all of her...

    This one will also stick in my head for sometime!


    Aw, thanks, DD.  I am honored.  I considered posting a gross picture, but decided it would be out of bounds.


    You obviously have the wrong copy Wolfy.

    This is the correct copy

    Link to legible copy:

    Innocent


    Now thats funny!


    Yesss...


    Let's face it...no matter what the subject, he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. Period.


    rmrd; you'll like this I think.  Two front page diaries at (the oft' hated) FDL put up pieces featuring Baratunde's plaintive video.  Dayen's is the better of two, IMO.  And I forgot to say thanks for reminding me of jack and jill.


    Thanks for the links. The media's behavior in this episode has been disgraceful. CNN's Ed Henry asking about the birth certificate in a press briefing after his own network had done a segment debunking the controversy was astonishing. NBC gives Pat Buchanan, who wrote "Thank Whitey" a column listing all the benefits Blacks got from being slaves, a prominent role as a political analyst. If Eugene Robinson had written "Reasons Blacks Hate Whitey", Robinson would have been shuffled off NBC's airwaves in a heartbeat. Don Imus, Pat Buchanan and Donald Trump are all NBC superstars. The United States is in no way "post-racial".


    Moving a thread above to here due to column narrowing secondry to length of the thread

     

    If Republicans are getting pummeled by their own constituents at townhall meetings and the press doesn't report that fact, the press is acting as active public relations officials for the GOP. If the press uses Obamacare for the health care bill and does not use Vouchercare for the Ryan plan, then the press is biased. What is the best way to break the broken link? Going after the White House does nothing. The press is not telling the complete story. The press is the major problem.

    The country was ill-informed on the run up the the Bush War. The country is ill-informed on climate change. The country is ill-informed on how other countries view Gitmo. The country is ill-infomed on the Fascism being practiced by Republican Governors in a host of states. The press is the the core of the mass ignorance.

    Your solution to the massive dereliction of duty by the press is to attack the Obama PR approach. ou keep up that attack and watch the press core sleep through attacks on union rights, women's rights, etc. I'll keep my anger focused where it needs to be. I think that you are missing the big picture.

     

    The country was extremely well informed leading up to Bush's Iraq war - it chose to ignore inconvenient truths to go for pre-emptive revenge. Global warming? What more do they need? Just a thread to cling onto insane theories to keep from changing.

    We're lazy, arrogant and mean - bad attitude for a superpower.

    http://mediamatters.org/research/200410290004

    @Rmrd

    1. I find "Obamacare" and "Ryancare" perfectly workable and inoffensive labels. I've seen administration supporters use "Obamacare" and use it myself accordingly.
    2. In many cases, not always, criticizing the Obama administration from the left is a useful and productive activity.
    3. I’ve written my share of pieces attacking the GOP and the Media. I just don’t spend all day every day doing that and only that. Like most sane people.
    4. Here, on the Obama PR approach, I only entered the thread because ATrope was suggesting a series of false theories about what happened, and it’s usually useful and kind to appraise people – even those in one’s own party – of the truth. Like I said above, I don’t think this subject is the most important thing in the world.

    I’m done here.


    .......I’ve written my share of pieces attacking the GOP and the Media. I just don’t spend all day every day doing that and only that. Like most sane people........

    Hey, I kinda like Media Matters :)


    @ whomever it might have been for; it didn't make the move.  Kiss

    (Grin.)  Simmer down now, ya'll.  Emptywheel has it juuuuust right, IMO.


    One reason that media gets a great deal of attention from me is that it does a great deal of harm. The demise of ACORN was aided and abetted by the media. The truncated tape that was used to libel Shirley Sherrod also stands out. Just this week, Hannity mentioned that Obama had attended Shiloh Baptist Church in DC on Easter Sunday pastored by "radical" pastor Wallace Charles Smith. Hannity aired a clip of a speech Smith gave when he served as president of Palmer Theological Seminary in Philadelphia:

    “It may not be Jim Crow anymore,” Smith says in the videotape. “Now, Jim Crow wears blue pinstripes, goes to law school and carries fancy briefs in cases. And now, Jim Crow has become James Crow, esquire. And he doesn’t have to wear white robes anymore because now he can wear the protective cover of talk radio or can get a regular news program on Fox.”

    Smith, 62, said that he had been asked to give a speech on racism and that he “was giving some background on what I thought were some of the issues regarding race in this country.”

    Following the Hannity broadcast, Shiloh received over 100 threats. One fax they received had the image of a monkey with a target across its face. The Shiloh Baptist Church was founded by slaves in the 1860's and has hosted a number of Presidents, including Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush. 

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/shiloh-baptist-church-receives-threa...

    Trump and Hannity speak to the same audience. On too many occasions the rst of the media provide cover for the vile message put out by the likes of the two aforementioned gentlemen.


    Why has no birth certificate ever been required of a white president.  I wouldn't have supplied it earlier either.  This whole argument exposes the birthers as the racist dogs that they really are.


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