MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
I have in the past, in colloquy with the lamented, gone-but-not-forgotten Articleman, urged the utility of deconstructing the arguments advanced by the Department of Justice as offering guidance to their inherent devotion (or the contrary) to civil liberties.
That instance involved the (successful) Motion to Dismiss chosen to be lodged against the claim by Anwar al-Awlaki's father for a hearing prior to the former's assassination. At the time I urged Articleman to consider the counterfactual, ie, that an administration truly concerned with giving a hearing before an execution had the perfect opportunity to do so merely by eschewing the filing of the offensive pleading, thus allowing both sides to proceed to debate the merits of the soon to occur drone attack.
Today we have the unsettling re-iteration by our Nobel Laureate President (and his running dogs at the Department of Justice) of their assertion that Fourth Amendment jurisprudence raises no bar to the collection and retention of information detailing the origin, terminal, and duration of our various electronic communications.
Simply put, when a George W. Bush appointee is to your left on civil liberties, you know that you are not right.
Comments
In related news, Arabs advised not to use their supermarket store discount cards when buying Hummus...
by jollyroger on Mon, 12/16/2013 - 6:02pm
The judge stayed the order to allow for appeal. The appeal could take up to six months. There are three other NSA civil liberties case in the US District Courts.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/16/2013 - 6:18pm
Ya gotta love a judge who finds an impermissible infringement of civil liberties, but then says, hey, keep it going cuz I don't have the balls to risk getting slapped down by the circuit court (cf the Hedges NDAA TRO, which was granted and then stayed by the 2nd circuit )http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedges_v._Obama#U.S._government_appeal_and_stay_of_permanent_injunction
by jollyroger on Mon, 12/16/2013 - 6:23pm
1) judges are usually a bit hesitant in rulings re: national security
2) I seem to recall another case where an "activist" court of appeals judge halted a national security program, only to see that order reversed, made to look foolish. I imagine this judge realizes the same thing, so 6 months isn't really too long to wait vs. quarter till never. In the meantime, more Snowden releases make it likely next summer's review will be muy caliente.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Mon, 12/16/2013 - 6:46pm
I seem to recall another case where
Yeah, that would be the Hedges case
by jollyroger on Mon, 12/16/2013 - 9:38pm
Has the judge set it up for recusing himself in future cases on this issue by saying how he is likely to decide in related cases that can be expected to come up?
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 12/16/2013 - 7:12pm
I don't think so. That would be a stretch, as it was part of his analysis, and not ex temporare vamping.
by jollyroger on Mon, 12/16/2013 - 9:00pm
Via emptywheel, this still may be a step forward in terms of framing:
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 6:05am
His "Domino pizza example" (although betraying execrable taste in pizza...) does put the government argument back on its heels, and distinguishes the 1979 precedent upon which all the further cases turn.
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 1:04pm
It's only a crime now.....cause a Demoncrat is illegally occupying the Oval office. I'm talkin about the Kenyan Usurper.
If a Republican was in there, the Judge would back off, and let the GOP Decider use that stuff to clamp down on the opposition AND start another $$$ big war with it.
by ANON.NCD (not verified) on Mon, 12/16/2013 - 9:52pm
Snowden is offering to help Brazil track down US spying efforts in return for political asylum.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 8:16am
That's not quite what he said, but if you want to spin it that way, go ahead.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 10:20am
Guardian:
Snowden offers to help Brazil investigate US spying in exchange for asylum
NYT:
Snowden Offers to Help Brazil if Granted Asylum
USA Today:
Snowden to Brazil: Swap you spying help for asylum
rmrd:
Snowden is offering to help Brazil track down US spying efforts in return for political asylum.
Snowden:
Brazilian senators.....have asked for my assistance with their investigations of suspected crimes against Brazilian citizens. I have expressed my willingness to assist wherever appropriate and lawful, but unfortunately the United States government has worked very hard to limit my ability to do so -- going so far as to force down the Presidential Plane of Evo Morales to prevent me from travelling to Latin America! Until a country grants permanent political asylum, the US government will continue to interfere with my ability to speak.
by NCD on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 10:56am
Thanks. Snowden was very clear in what he is willing to trade for asylum.
The actions in the US courts will continue without regard to what Snowden does. The fact that Snowden is willing to help another country to obtain asylum is a separate but important story.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 11:18am
It might perhaps be more accurate to characterize the proposed transaction as asylum for counter-spying, no?
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 12:39pm
Brazil spied on US interests in the past. It is not clear what activity is going on now.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 2:45pm
Brazil's intelligence service also monitored a facility rented by the US embassy in Brasilia, as ABIN concluded that the offices held "communications equipment."
"Functioning daily with the doors closed and the lights turned off, and with nobody in the locale," is how the report described the rented property. "The office is sporadically visited by someone from the embassy
counterespionage
by Anonymous jolly (not verified) on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 3:14pm
The NSA electronic surveillance is going to hopefully be reduced under the courts.
Other nations will continue to use electronic surveillance on Us interests and citizens. Snowden did not focus on what other nations were directing at the US.
President Obama was not given access to an iPhone because the device could not be made secure. Don't you think a host of countries are actively trying to hack devices of US officials?
On another issue, do you have any problems with Snowden, a US citizen, offering to provide security aid to foreign nations for asylum?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 4:23pm
None.
I do have problems with Snowden, a U.S. citizen, needing asylum to avoid otherwise certain persecution for an heroic act of whistleblowing that is more and more coming to resemble (as Ellsberg himself contends) Ellsberg's epiphany.
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 4:39pm
Bear in mind that the judge's decision which occasioned this post could not have come about without the Snowden material being available.
When the government relies upon protestations of security to cloak illegality, it is lawful to trespass upon that security interest.
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 4:41pm
Uh, Ellsberg went to trial
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 4:45pm
And your point is?
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 5:37pm
How much time did Ellsberg serve?
How much time did Thomas Drake serve after being prosecuted?
How much time did William Binney serve?
How much time did J.Kirk Wiebe serve?
How many of the NSA whistleblowers were executed?
With the steady drip of leaks, what would the Snowden trial have looked like?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 6:03pm
There was no trial in Snowden's future. There was Gitmo. Ellsberg was convicted. He was freed on appeal because a judge was permitted to scrutinize the government's behaviour.
That is no longer on the table.
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 6:14pm
The leaked material was not in Snowden's hands. The steady drip of information would have made it easy to protest any incarceration.
The NSA court cases will move on.
Snowden will be the guy who sold out to Brazil or elsewhere. We will later find out actions that Brazil used against the US so that Brazil could determine what the US's plans are for Brazil's neighbors.
By going to Hong Kong, then Russia and now offering to help Brazil, Snowden is tarnished. Snowden will have his core defenders, everyone else will not share the praise.
The lawyers who win the cases and their supporting organizations will be the heroes and heroines.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 7:23pm
color me core
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 8:18pm
The lawyers who win the cases and their supporting organizations will be the heroes and heroines.
The ones who would have had no case and no opportunity to be heroes or heroines were it not for Snowden releasing the documents.
Color me core too.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 11:12pm
I acknowledged that Snowden would have his core supporters .
I don't think that history will look at his Brazilian offer to trade knowledge of workings of a US agency for asylum as something honorable.
by AnonymousRm (not verified) on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 12:41am
Let's not get all "man without a country" here. He only knows what he knows, and he has presumably dumped all that. I'm not sure his ongoing personal services are at issue. That said, the poor motherfucker needs asylum, and Brazil is a pleasant place. Also, it is Greenwald's home.
Are you seriously proposing that he owes some sort of duty to surrender to an outlaw regime?
by jollyroger on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 1:21am
Note - Ellsberg was pre-9/11, in the days when hippies would protest against war, not support gitmo and invading Iraq and running a huge government dragnet on our personal lives. The game has changed significantly - we're all a bit of McNamera now.
by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 2:31am
What hippies support Gitmo and invading Iraq and NSA spying?
by Aaron Carine on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 8:41am
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/08/repulsive_progressive_hypocrisy/
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 11:08am
I guess he must be using it ironically, since Democrats, especially conservative ones, don't qualify as hippies.
by Aaron Carine on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 2:30pm
And regarding the people who "approve of drones", I'd like to know what question they were asked. If it was "do you support the use of drones against Al Qaeda operatives?", then an answer of "yes" doesn't strike me as outrageous. If the question was "do you support drone attacks that kill innocents?" or "do you support drone attacks that are in violation of the laws of war?", I don't think you would get the same results.
by Aaron Carine on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 2:39pm
In my official capacity as the last, lonely, hippie, permit me to say that PP is using the term ironically,
by jollyroger on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 12:41pm
As in the "Dirty Fucking Hippie" (DFH) wing of the Democratic Party. ref. Atrios, Digby, et al. As in obligatory "Hippie Punching" whenever a serious Washington media type/corporate politician needs to show his/her grownup creds.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 4:41pm
Snowden is offering to help another country against the United States. Those who note a Brazil is a "nice country" might double check the racial history of the country.
Snowden goes beyond informing the American people about the NSA outrageous surveillance program.
If they are successful, the lawyers will be the heroes in the fight against the NSA. A larger number of people can tell you that Thurgood Marshall was an attorney in Brown V. Board then can actually name the Brown that gives the case it's name.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 9:04am
Against the United States? I don't consider the US government spying on leaders of other democratic countries helping US interests, "pro US". I don't think protesting it or pushing back against it is "against the United States" - quite frankly I think it fits in with those values I thought I grew up with, even though I realize all marketing is only so deep.
The lawyers didn't risk jail or economic security to fight the NSA. It's guys like the anonymous mail service who shut his whole business down rather than comply. Thurgood Marshall is well-known because he was behind a smart calculated widespread strategy with the NAACP to overturn segregation, not just a lawyer for an advocacy group. But surely you're not so dumb as to not realize that more people know Rosa Parks, Marshall's client, than know who Marshall was? What kind of game are you playing? If Snowden were revealing how police forces were coordinating stop & frisk or revealing how Republican politicians were coordinating vote suppression in black communities, you'd be smothering him with kisses. But somehow you're enamored with surveillance as somehow keeping the terrorists at bay or doing some other bit of good, when every court case around your mass dragnet has shown claims of effectiveness to be hollow and they can't even name 1 solid case where gathering all this info convicted someone in a way that wasn't easily available without crushing the 4th Amendment. Of course in the 60's all black people were considered terrorists and any of these NSA methods would equally apply to gathering "metadata" and bank records and location information and acquaintances/phone contacts for the NAACP, MLK, the Panthers, Nation of Islam, black labor unions, auto workers, and those pesky northern Jewish organizers helping out in the south. And once MLK or Muhammed Ali spoke out against Vietnam War, why, then it became a pressing matter of national security - why they were undermining our military!!!
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 11:02am
Word
by jollyroger on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 12:49pm
I have been sticking to the issue offering to help Brazil. I have not been resorting to personal insults. As for the question of my stupidity in not knowing that Rosa Parks was more well known than "her lawyer", Thurgod Marshall, at least I am aware that the lawyer involved with the Montgomery Movement was Fred Gray and not Thurgood Marshall. Thurgood Marshall was known for his arguments in Brown v. Board and becoming the first African-American Supreme Court Justice. Gray's autobiography "Bus Ride to Justice" was revised and re-released earlier this year. It might help you differentiate Gray from Marshall.
On the issue of how Snowden will be viewed if he is offered asylum by Brazil in exchange for revealing surveillance techniques used by the United States, I contend that the public at large will consider the Snowden is no longer interested in informing the US public about NSA action. It is not about your personal feelings, it is about how the general public would view Snowden's asylum in Brazil
I am not enamored of surveillance. I repeatedly said that the courts are the only hope to change NSA conduct.
After reading your erroneous statement about Rosa Parks being Thurgood Marshall's client, I did not read the rest of the rant, because I doubted it was going to be accurate.
We can hope that the other three NSA privacy cases have similar results. At the end of the day, the Supreme Court will have to weigh in on how much surveillance being done by the NSA is legal.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 6:16pm
Sorry you can't Google civil rights history or your lawyer heroes - as I noted, Rosa Parks more known than Thurgood Marshall or Fred Gray.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 3:19am
See below
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 6:54am
The real point of metadate collection is to make reporting on governmental misdeeds impossible by chilling whistleblowing.
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 1:00pm
A bit of Leon's history according to Robert Parry.
http://consortiumnews.com/2013/12/17/judge-leons-dirty-climb-to-the-bench/
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 1:13pm
I suppose one might reference FDR's thinking in putting Joe Kennedy at the head of the SEC...."set a thief to catch a thief?" He certainly is described as an unlikely paladin of the left, but we take what we can get, eh?
by jollyroger on Tue, 12/17/2013 - 1:25pm
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/politics/the-cheney-fallacy
Interesting article on this...to which Greenwald links.
Worth reading to the end.
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 12:02pm
Concise, precise, and depressing.
by jollyroger on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 12:40pm
One of the things I often find missing from this discussion is any attempt at any objective, realistic assessment of "the threat," such as it is or if it is.
Maybe there's no threat. Maybe the threat is easily derailed with some intelligent defensive moves. Or maybe the threat asks for preventive action of some sort.
I read somewhere that what turned Obama's head around on this issue was the Ft. Hood shootings and Christmas bomber. Not so much what happened, but what could've happened had the shooter been more capable or the bomb had gone off.
Or maybe...as PP said a few months ago...we, as a people, simply need to buck up and realize that some terrorist plots will work. 100% security is impossible not worth a major curtailment of our liberties. It might be too much to ask any president or politician to come clean with the public in that way...but maybe not.
(It might work if the politician prefaced his "confession" with a detailed discussion of he or she was doing to prevent such an event from happening.)
Sometime over a year ago, Bill Maher held up a picture of the damage done to a Texas city, maybe Galveston, by a hurricane. He made the astute observation that if the same damage had been done by terrorists we would've lost our collective shit and invaded or bombed the terrorists' country of origin.
But as it was "just" a hurricane, the people of that city and the state of Texas simply pulled up their overalls and got to work rebuilding, healing the hurt, and providing for the newly homeless. The damage would've been the same, but our response would've been entirely different.
I guess the observation holds if we're just talking about damage, but if we elevate the attack to a dirty bomb or real nuclear device or a biological attack with the power to contaminate a wide area for many years...then maybe not.
And maybe it matters if the damage is done by a person rather than an inanimate force that can't be controlled and doesn't "know any better."
by Peter Schwartz on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 2:11pm
I don't think you can underestimate the role of a desire for revenge, unavailable in the case of the Hurricane
Recall that George W. Bush turned his whole disasterous post attack standing around through the simple promise "Those people will hear us soon..."
Bluster sells,
by jollyroger on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 2:15pm
When the Boston Bombers were on the loose citizens willingly let an army of law enforcement including armored vehicles take command of an area. When the situation ended, the departing police were greeted with applause and cheers. Was this the rational response to danger or should the citizens have rejected the police presence?
If a mother lives in a crime- ridden area does she have the right to own a gun to protect her household?
I'm trying to asses some of your parameters.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 9:19pm
1. The quasi military Boston response was over the top and counterproductive. It was only when an alert citizen left his "shelter in place" that he spotted the younger Tsarnaev, who had eluded all the tach-ed out cops and their armored personnel carriers, etc.
2. of course (Parentheticall, when I was obliged to work late and lived in the East Bay, during the time when the rapist known as "stinky" was abroad, I bought my wife a 357 magnum and taught her to shoot. This almost turned out badly when I later started cheating on her, but that's another story.)
by jollyroger on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 10:02pm
What do you think the response of the public would have been if the elected officials said that they were not calling in the "over the top" response to track down the bombing suspects?
by AnonymousRm (not verified) on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 11:13pm
Security theatre is preposterous whether it is a city wide lockdown to pursue a wounded criminal or national guardsmen patrolling airports with unloaded M16s. I am not impressed by your reference to public opinion--let's talk about efficacy.
by jollyroger on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 12:06am
I'm unaware of comparison data on the most efficacious way to deal with lone wolf bombers in a city.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 12:38am
If we talk about efficacy, then I think you have to be prepared to relent should the other side win that argument.
Isn't the more principled argument based on the fourth amendment? Even if a procedure is efficacious, it's unconstitutional. Surely, it's less efficacious to read someone his Miranda rights, yes?
Switching gears a bit...
It's always struck me as a bit odd for people to point to the Tsarnaev case as proof of the inefficaciousness of the police's full-court press. "See?" they say, "Some guy going out for a smoke was able to nab the wounded brother when all the King's Men were unable to."
Sometimes they add that "the Russians basically offered up the Tsarnaevs on a silver platter to the Americans they STILL bumbled it. What are we spending all this money on unconstitutional methods, when it doesn't even work in the easiest of cases?"
To the first objection, it's pretty clear to me that had the police not been scouring the city for them with the whole place in lock down, the kid would never have hidden in the boat. Not even clear the homeowner would have been on alert for anything odd.
And assuming the kid had any brains (which is unclear), he would've cleared out of there. Why the two of them didn't do that at first is also unclear. Perhaps they didn't know right away that they'd been videotaped. The older one seemed more zealous and less stable and clear thinking.
The second argument seems stronger to me. However, mistakes are always made. Easy balls are whiffed. Maybe, at the time, the Americans thought the Russians were over-reacting. (Don't we want our guys not to overreact?) Maybe they were thinking "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Hard to know what went wrong there. Maybe it's been written up somewhere, but I haven't read it.
However, that they whiffed an easy one doesn't mean they haven't nailed a bunch of others. This is my problem: There's been no public assessment of the efficaciousness of the program nor an assessment of the threat, assuming there is one. Maybe there can't be given that it has to be at least somewhat secret.
I'm inclined to agree with the fourth amendment argument and PP's point that the American public has to be willing to accept that some terrorist attacks will get through. They do anyway. But I do think there would've been a public shit storm if the authorities had not been seen to be moving heaven and earth to find these guys.
Think what the right has done with Benghazi, at least among its followers. However bogus it may be, a lot of people believe that Obama et al simply allowed those folks to die. Even if there was nothing that could've been done, they fault him for not having "moved heaven and earth" to try to save them, e.g., send in the jets, etc.
That's over in Libya. It's 100 times worse when it's a domestic event that strikes at a location where anyone could see himself attending and feeling safe. Hard to know. I don't think there's a clear cut answer. Always a balance to strike.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 9:03am
However, that they whiffed an easy one doesn't mean they haven't nailed a bunch of others. This is my problem: There's been no public assessment of the efficaciousness of the program nor an assessment of the threat, assuming there is one. Maybe there can't be given that it has to be at least somewhat secret.
But there has been a discussion of the efficacy of these surveillance programs. I've posted several links to Senators Wydan and Udall as well as articles that state that there is no evidence that these metadata programs has lead to the arrest or discovery of any terrorist plots. The NSA released a list of about 50 plots they claimed were discovered or foiled by the metadata programs. There are many articles that go though those 50 cases and explain them in detail. None of them relied on the metadata programs. In most cases the tip came from outside the program and a wiretap warrant issued against just those suspects could have achieved the same objective without recording the metadata of millions of innocent phone and internet users.
I really don't have time to search my comments for those links or do a search to find them or related articles. But in Judge Leon's decision he states, “the Government does not cite a single instance in which analysis of the NSA’s bulk metadata collection stopped an imminent attack, or otherwise aided the Government in achieving any objective that was time-sensitive in nature.”
by ocean-kat on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 4:03pm
That's fair.
by Peter Schwartz on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 4:37pm
Seconded. And numerous times the government's claims of effectiveness have been shown to be tenuous or misleading or simply wrong. And that's with the government using the advantage of classified unreviewable info & innuendo to massage its case.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 4:38pm
New news:
by artappraiser on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 8:32pm
I believe the plan is till to save the metadata, but on the telco's servers, only to be sifted after specific court order.
I continue to believe that the real purpose of this program is to facilitate the subversion of press shield laws. For that purpose, I'm not sure how much relief will bloom in the community of leakers over the change in procedure--prolly some.
by jollyroger on Wed, 12/18/2013 - 10:06pm
Via EmptyWheel, Judge Leon seems to be extremely skeptical of the government's case despite giving them 6 months to prove it.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 3:35am
More:
by artappraiser on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 9:11pm
Response to PP from above
I didn't read your last response above because
1) formatting made it difficult and
2) it was likely as accurate as Marshall being Rosa Parks' litigator
there have been bombings in London Madrid and elsewhere. In the Boston case there had been a bombing followed by a gunfight with law enforcement. There were bombs thrown at pursuing police.
What would the proper response have been?
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 6:59am
The bus boycotts from Rosa Parks' action were decided at the Supreme Court in Browder v. Gayle with Fred Gray & Thurgood Marshall representing the plaintiffs.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 9:01am
Sigh
Reading is fundamental. Parks was not involved in the Supreme Court case. Here is the an excerpt from a Rosa Parks centennial celebration I wrote
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 9:50am
I'm not talking about Boston - nice try, bub.
Rosa Parks was the memorable hero of the bus boycotts, not the lawyers. It doesn't matter whether the court case they chose to move to the Supreme Court was hers or another - she was the memorable face for the movement, she kicked off the boycotts, she was the nonviolent protester, the boycott cases moved through the courts because of her.
You may know the history better, but you're also more willing to twist the obvious for whatever you think you're doing. The winners in this uprising were the people who resisted in the streets, who pushed the boycotts, who organized the cars to replace the black taxis, all the other street activists - not just a bunch of lawyers.
Your dismissing Snowden and thinking only the suits at the ACLU matter is similarly counter-factual - the ACLU & Freedom Watch been trying to get their dicks in the door at the Supreme Court for about a decade now, and they keep getting shut out as not having standing to complain, or that it's a matter of national security - meaning anything the government says has to be kept mum. So the ACLU wouldn't be able to do diddly, Cong. Ron Wyden couldn't even get any of the 5% of the docs he'd seen unclassified, so all we had for a decade was a growing problem with no way for court review. Snowden changed all that. The accolades and infamy belong to him.
[to be fair to Marshall, Grey, et al from the NAACP - they had planned a strategy of litigation that Parks was privy to - for the lawyers at the ACLU and Freedom Watch, they're making the best of a new breakthrough. It should tell you something that the 2 groups of lawyers are pretty fundamentally opposed to each other, but in this case their goals line up]
More on Rosa & the boycott case below.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 10:38am
This is sad. Verbiage does not hide your error. Gray, acting as lawyer, excluded Parks from the Supreme Court case, full stop. Above, you provide a statement about Rosa Parks not being a part of the Supreme Court case but you want to continue an argument. Sad.
Thurgood Marshall was not Parks' lawyer.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 10:56am
Yawn. Parks launched the bus boycotts. The Marshall/Gray case settled them as US law. Parks was part of the legal case until they decided it better to keep her off the docket to better manage public opinion. What you think you've proved in all this, no idea.
Rosa Parks from Montgomery, the other 4 black female bus boycotters from Montgomery. A koinkidink? Frayed knot.
Again, Snowden's the hero/villain - not the pack of lawyers.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 11:18am
You get a D
It is not a six-degrees of separation game Thurgood Marshall was not Rosa Parks' lawyerby rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 12:19pm
6 degrees? Try 1 1/2 max, since the court cases, specific city of Montgomery, NAACP & MIA, boycotts and people involved were all tied together.
The main point stands - only 1 person's name remains universally known from the boycotts - Rosa Parks. The lawyers, while essential for both strategy & execution, are 2nd tier in the story. From Fred Gray:
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 4:36pm
Questions (Select the correct answer)
1. Who was Rosa Parks attorney prior to the SCOTUS case?
A) Fred Gray
B) Thurgood Marshall
2. Who made the decision not to include Rosa Parks in the SCOTUS case?
A) Fred Gray
B) Thurgood Marshall
3. Fred Gray and Thurgood Marshall tried the case before SCOTUS. Who was not a plaintiff in the case?
A) Rosa Parks
B) The four actual plaintiffs in the case
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 5:18pm
Question:
4) Who is most popularly associated with the Montgomery bus strikes?
a) Rosa Parks
b) Fred Grey
c) Thurgood Marshall
d) Aurelia Browder
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 5:29pm
Who was the 5th Beatle?
a) Murray The Kay
b) Peter Schwartz
by Anonymous PS (not verified) on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 5:43pm
Trick question. It was Pete Best.
Like Thurgood Marshall, Pete Best was not Rosa Parks's lawyer
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 5:54pm
Than you for avoiding the questions.
You thought that Thurgood Marshall was Rosa Parks' lawyer. He was not
You seem to have thought that Rosa Parks was one of the plaintiffs in the SCOTUS case. She was not.
Thurgood Marshall is more remembered than the Browns who were the plantiffs in Brown v. Board.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 5:51pm
Last try & I'm finished. You started this with: "A larger number of people can tell you that Thurgood Marshall was an attorney in Brown V. Board then can actually name the Brown that gives the case it's name."
This was a cheap trick to slam Snowden & say ACLU/Freedom Watch lawyers would be the true heroes, that they didn't need a test case, the American court system is oh so transparent & open to contest state secrets, ignoring say Gitmo prisoners held for 12 years without habeas corpus or frequently ability to sue or see a lawyer.... And I came up with a civil rights case where the person arrested - the test case whose arrest launched the boycotts, is much better known than the lawyers who litigated the case and the person whose name is on the Supreme Court decision.
Anyway, continue to pick nits and miss the point, I'm through.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 8:03pm
Your comment (that initiated the thread)9
You made the statement that Thurgood Marshall was Rosa Parks lawyer. He was not. Instead of noting your error and moving on, you doubled down and made the six degree of separation argument that Thurgood Marshall was indeed Rosa Parks' lawyer. You posted data that repeated noted that Parks was not a plaintiff in the SCOTUS case argued by Marshall and Gray, yet you continued to argue that Marshall was Parks' lawyer. You were the one who said Parks was Marshall's client.You were wrong.
I contend that if Snowden works for another country to reveal US spy techniques, he will be considered a traitor. The public will look for other heroes to become the icons for the battle against the NSA. The lawyers are a logical possibility. An organization like the ACLU is another possibility. If Snowden is seen as working for another country, he will not be the hero if the courts end NSA current surveillance program.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 10:21pm
We need to remember that USA Today exposed the phone surveillance program in 2006.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 11:34pm
Thinking Americans won't find US government's industrial/economic spying defensible, so won't consider Snowden a traitor for helping a country defend against it.
This is Brazil we're talking about, not North Korea or China - why are we spying? Big terrorist threat coming up from Sao Paulo? Worried about the price of ethanol or what?
You're a great believer in American exceptionalism - you just don't seem to like it when it targets your race, but targeting anyone else's demographics is hunky dory. Seems strange to me, but I guess if I stop to think, not that unusual.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 12/20/2013 - 1:58am
If the public is given a different face as the icon for the battle against the NSA, the public will dump Snowden in a hot second. The meme is that he ran to Hong Kong and then to that haven of civil rights, Russia. If he goes to Brazil the country will be reminded of Brazil's racial strife. It will not be a win for Snowden.
You bring racial attacks into everything. Let me state my position again. Hopefully you will be able to understand, no President is going to willingly cripple intelligence gathering. Even if. a President were to say that the operations were going to change, there has to be legislation or laws.
Some democratic and Republican Senators are willing to scuttle talks with Iran so the idea that Congress will come up with legislation is remote. The courts are the only viable option. Instead of jumping up and down about what isn't happening, I focus on what is happening in the fight against the NSA.Tere are four cases pending in US District Courts. That is where support needs to go.
Stop and Frisk was challenged in court. There was a court case in the murder of a Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman got off, but a generation of youth has been inspired to combat immigration laws and Stand Your Ground in Florida. Legal action is pending on voter suppression.
I think that I am consistent in the approach to the NSA and racial issues.. Others have taken the confused position that Zimmerman made a righteous kill and that a racist like Rand Paul is worthy of attention because he talks about easing drug laws.
If someone supports Zimmerman and wonders why Blacks don't rally around Rand Paul, they may have to take a back seat when discussing issues of race. Rand Paul was amazed that Blacks actually knew Black history and could remember the name of the Black Republican Senator that a Rand Paul forgot. Other people are unaware of the specifics of race- based cases that went to the a Supreme Court. These folks are as qualified to discuss racial issues as the Duck Dynasty patriarch who gives his own confused version of racial history in GQ magazine.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/20/2013 - 8:10am
It sounds like Gray was Parks' lawyer.
by Anonymous PS (not verified) on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 5:45pm
It sounds like I don't give a fuck - the point is that Snowden/Parks risked their bloody skins to do something , not the lawyers who might be commendable but didn't risk being disappeared by some racist sheriff or forced into permanent exile.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/19/2013 - 8:06pm