MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
After watching a video of President Trump's supporters yelling, cursing and flipping their middle fingers at the media during a rally in Tampa this week, a Politico reporter weighed in, unleashing no-holds-barred tweets that described the screaming crowd as toothless “garbage people.”
I know there's all kinds of blather about civility, much of which is worthy blather, but when people behave like dangerous morons is calling them on it a politeness thing or a necessary thing?
Comments
er....strikes me as possibly related, on WaPo home page now, start of a new campaign, a new and different Trump admin? Or time to move home to NY?
Either way, I imagine this kinda thing: puhleez Dadeeee, c'mon, cut it out, you're being so gross....
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 2:42pm
There's this one further thing I'd like to know along these lines:
Where's Melania? Watching CNN in her private bedroom?
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 9:09pm
The WaPo did not include Ivanka’s entire statement
She added that she is the daughter of an immigrant, noting that her mother Ivana Trump grew up in communist Czech Republic. She was also quick to mention that her mother "came to this country legally."
https://www.axios.com/ivanka-trump-opposes-family-separation-immigration-9f379f49-b94d-4a1c-8efc-71349bb11e4e.html
Her comments do not differ much from her father.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/10/trump-migrant-families-separated-706144
Ivanka used her indoor voice
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 3:21pm
There's some truth to that. People are putting children at risk to get here. People die in the desert from the heat and dehydration. Women and children get raped. About two weeks ago a man nearly died in a chair near my front door. I called border control but I was literally worried he would die before they came to pick him up. One has to wonder how bad we would need to make incarceration to make it a disincentive to people who are risking death. When people are willing to die to get away from the situation in their home country we have to come up with a different solution to making their life miserable when they get caught crossing the border.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 3:51pm
Agreed. Punishing people willing to risk death is not an option.Neither Donald or Ivanka cares.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 4:03pm
I was just pointing out the media comment because it related to barefooted's posted article, that's why I underlined that part. I almost thought of removing the immigration reference in WaPo's title link to avoid hijacking her point , but was too lazy.
But as long as it has now been addressed, I would just point out on Ivanka's immigration statement ,that there's more than a few Democrats who think that way as well, i.e.: legal immigration only. The problem for those Dems really is what her father is trying to do with legal immigration (country bans, visa limits, DACA people, etc.) and, as oceankat pointed out, what to do with illegals arriving despite all the discouragement. Most of that is Congress' fault, they were supposed to be revising the law which would also instruct the president what he can and cannot do, but instead they have put it all on the back burner because it is so controversial and crosses party lines in odd ways. Everyone who votes in mid-terms should pressure the candidates about what they are going to do about it all.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 6:48pm
You almost thought, ... but was too lazy. Gotta love that.
But no, although I appreciate the merits of all of your posts, they're not really referencing the point of my link. My reaction to a Politico reporter having to (or choosing to) apologize for expressing his outrage was, sincerely, GRR. Why is it acceptable for a crowd of people to behave as they did to Acosta and others, but unacceptable for a member of the media to be angered by it?
by barefooted on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 10:15pm
I guess cause I think my point is: Food fight! yuge ratings for all concerned.
The simple answer: the Politico reporter is a professional and those others are not. Not for the reason he gave "hate begets hate", which I also happen to agree with. But because he's a professional journalist, and I think dispassionate professional journalism is an important goal if not a reality.
BUT then I'm just getting very cynical about it all. It's okay. It pays their bills, CNN and MSNBC, for their journalists to go passionate pundit once in a while, get ratings (not to mention more name recognition for themselves) and then maybe they can send a reporter to like Afghanistan once in a while. And they get to draw attention to the importance of the 4th estate and freedom of the press.
Though I also actually do believe now what this local Fox news tv guy reported about the Costa scene. The pros that have become celebs, they know how to handle this and what's really up on it all. Especially as I've gotten into regularly reading the tweets of major MSM reporters. Behind the scenes, they are cynical about it all too. They know this getting angry about these things is trollish distraction, but it's like it's for a good cause as long as things don't get too carried away and we let the troll take all the time.
The takeway to remember: even tho Trump is truly dangerously trying to screw up our fourth estate, it's only his fans that are buying it and they already thought that way before he was around. Our fourth estate is doing a fine job fighting back since the inauguration, and nobody's mind is going to be changed. Trump fans are going to enjoy their nasty rowdy play, getting their rocks off. Supporters on all sides get more active and emotional, is all.
See even you got emotional because you started the post with GRRRR. Did that help anything? I'm sincerely asking, maybe I'm not thinking right. To me it's like feeding a troll, and a good professional wouldn't fall prey.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 10:39pm
Emotional? No, GRR isn't emotional. A string of letters that wouldn't be quotable in public with an audible burp followed by a spit spray? Maybe.
It's not about helping anything, arta. Except perhaps the state of mind of a few folks who happen to be in a profession they love and are seeing it denigrated by their president in a way they haven't before. Denigrated in a way that can potentially become dangerous to them all - not just the Acosta's of the medium.
by barefooted on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 11:18pm
I just hope more of the spend the time covering the real stuff going on like this press conference today by his very own administration rather than feeding the troll. But the troll fights do get them ratings. I am susceptible myself. That's why I need professionals.
It's sort of the way I feel about extensive coverage of "horse race politics" when there's an election on. I get into it. I get too much into it. I need the reporters to not just drop coverage of everything else to feed my and everyone else's silly addiction.
It's the old "meta" vs. reality reality thing. Yes, I'm expecting them to make me eat my oatmeal.
Even more so, it's that this president runs an endless campaign, that's virtually all he does, nothing else. And not only that, the campaign is all lies about what is going on. While others are running the country, often doing things the opposite of what the president says is being done.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 11:28pm
like mind at the top of my twitter feed just now, only there because art critic Roberta Smith retweeted it, I don't know this guy, an artist, never heard his name
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 11:32pm
I understand the sentiment, but this needs to be documented. A segment of voters has gone rabid and insane. We cannot pretend that this racism and venom does not exist. The country is at a crossroads
.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 8:50am
If only that advise had been heeded during his campaign ... unfortunately he's the POTUS, so coverage of what he does and says is necessary. But I have noted that the MSM (FOX not included) tends to do the "we'll keep an eye on it and if anything important comes up we'll go there" thing more often than not.
by barefooted on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 3:23pm
But the troll fights do get them ratings
Absolutely. Trump is a ratings juggernaut; always has been and makes sure he will be as long as he's relevant. And Acosta isn't in a daily twitter war with Sanders, Trump, etc. just 'cause he's got down time. But we cannot forget that these journalists are human beings - they're not professional robots created to bring us the news with our morning oatmeal. When they are berated, spat and cursed at by hundreds of people at very close range - many of them female who have needed to be escorted out of arenas - we cannot, should not, pretend that just because of their profession they should ... what? Rise above it? Accept the risk of not only psychological but physical harm in order to report for ratings? Sure, a few no doubt love the added attention from feeding and being fed to the trolls. Yet I sincerely doubt that the majority of folks doing their jobs in that atmosphere, likely with their families watching, find it an example of what they signed up for.
by barefooted on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 3:40pm
The latest. This kayfabe show must play well with the demo they want to reach, is all I can think of, why they are hammering it so hard and consistently, and in doing so distract those from all the investigations who are distractable:
Sanders, Acosta in intense clash over Trump, press
By Brett Samuels @ TheHill.com 08/02/18 02:18 PM EDT
Acosta after clash with Sanders: White House has lost sight of the fact that media, Americans aren't enemies
By Emily Birnbaum @ same 08/02/18 02:53 PM EDT
Trump blasts media amid chants of 'CNN sucks'
By Jacqueline Thomsen @ same 08/02/18 07:35 PM EDT
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 8:58pm
Politico.com:
Trump administration splits over journalists as ‘enemy of the people’
By Rebecca Morin 08/02/2018 05:50 PM EDT
And this morning:
Trump targets MSNBC, CNN in tweet attacking media
By Louise Nelson 08/02/2018 07:49 AM EDT
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 9:04pm
This.
It fits with arta's view, and makes sense just as hers does. But it takes it in the direction of ignoring the POTUS, which I still contend isn't possible. I do like the idea of a "pool" of reporters at briefings and rallies rather than the total scrub. One other point:
My bold and underlining. Some things seriously need to be ignored, and left to the fringes.
by barefooted on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 5:08pm
The Finnish press ridiculed both heads of state when they came to Helsinki
https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-called-clown-and-spreader-of-fake-facts-by-helsinki-press-2018-7
White Supremacists will still march in D.C. even if the press ignores them. The press should not hide. Tell the country the truth. The press didn’t vet Trump. He was never forced to produce taxes, etc. Ivanka gets to do an interview where she tells us how parents traumatized by having their children kidnapped represented a low point in her life. Huckabee Sanders says the the President thinks the press is the enemy of the people and who is she to say otherwise.
The deplorables are not going to believe MSM. The rest of us want to know that there are racists and bigots at our doors.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 5:25pm
RM, saw this, the blatant not so hidden racism of calling Trump "a populist":
In 2016, Clinton got 88% of the Black vote. The “populist” got 8%. Clinton got 65% of the Hispanic vote. The “populist” got 29%. Clinton got 65% of the Asian vote. The “populist” got 29%. But because Trump got 58% of the white vote and Clinton got 37%, Trump is a “populist” since he got the majority of the (white) people. In addition, Hillary won 3 million more votes than Trump.
by NCD on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 5:32pm
If you're going to reply to me, rm, I'd appreciate it if you would focus on my comment. At no point did I say that White Supremacists marching in DC should be ignored. And what exactly Finnish press reports have to do with anything I said is beyond me.
I also don't recall advocating that the press should hide, or not tell the country the truth. Dana Milbank, in my linked WaPo opinion piece, is not advocating that, either. The point that he's making regarding ignoring something, the point in the excerpt that I underlined, has to do with one very specific thing. And like him, I'm not going to give it the prestige of a name. If you think otherwise, feel free - but not in response to me.
by barefooted on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 7:44pm
How are people going to know what is occurring if we aren’t willing to name evil? People need to be presented with facts on how the group came about and what they are saving. Bring the roaches into the light. The membership is not being recruited by MSM.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 8:07pm
But it's being illuminated by them. These particular roaches need the light to survive.
by barefooted on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 8:26pm
Let the ones who want to join come on out. Let them wear their t-shirts, etc.. Let me be able to identify them.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 8:33pm
And you should, wherever and whenever you see the need and opportunity. We don't need to depend on the media to do it - we are more effective.
by barefooted on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 8:43pm
Sigh
Im not going to be showing up at Trump rallies. Let the media do its job. Name the groups.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 9:06pm
Yeah, good. As I said before, I don't get all het up by them playing into it a little.
First, to go back to the start of your thread, all I was saying is I respected the Politico reporter for doing that, I think that was very professional of him, a show that he was going to try to control his emotions.
But in the end, who he mainly attacks, is our current infotainment TV news, as it's what he watches, and truth be told, cable CNN of today (as opposed to the online site which has much broader coverage, as do their foreign broadcasts) is a far cry from Ted Turner's CNN of real hard news, it's mostly all punditry. And MSNBC is all political punditry, hardly any news. And then it's like: what's good for the goose is good for the gander, I'm a little cynical about that, the attention has raised their business greatly, business hasn't been so good in a long time. and a lot of them find Trump as an atagonist exhilarating, it's like: we've been blessed to be in the biz in interesting times, when the public is interested. And the Jim Acosta's, types, the big stars, they should be able to take care of themselves here and figure when is the time to milk it for ratings and when is the time to pull back. And I think the last few days Acosta is thinking of all his low-paid colleagues who may now truly have a little fear for their lives and safety from Trump crazies, and that's why he's challenging. Just because Trump has so tripled down on it the last week or so.
But I also think true professionals, they would be taking Jay Rosen's advice. And that would include probably turning down the job of White House propaganda reporter at this time.
Excepting that I do have admiration so far for how the WaPo and NYTimes White House people have been handling it: which is: cynically (and a few other old timers like April Ryan.) You especially see it following their tweets which are often throwing stuff out there to their colleagues to get more input on what's really behind the latest bullshit.
Here's one of the reasons why: they know at the same time he's blasting them, he wants their attention at times or will have things leaked to them. Never forget he has long been a manipulator of leaks to the "fake news", long before he ran for president. It is all bullshit, his "fake news" thing, just total troll bullshit. To distract. As he says "SAD!"
I do feel other outlets like Daily Beast or Buzz Feed or Vanity Fair Hive are in the White House beat biz mainly for the juicy clickbait gossip. (As is that one guy at Axios, but then they do a good job of balancing it with serious and broad coverage of what's really going on.) But if you are a real new junkie, like I am, you like that stuff for seeking tea leaf clues. The downside, the danger, reading too much too often of this stuff, though, to buy into Trump's trolling, to get a sense of panic that the whole world is falling apart and not realize you're feeding the troll, doing his fake narrative, and lose sense of big picture. And that's when I really appreciate and admire the pros that leave their emotion and punditry and personal opinion at their home door.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 2:51am
p.s., I fully admit: if they were just sending a pool reporter or "the interns" to White House stuff, I would often be looking it over! Why it is something that should be seriously considered, though: the troll wants the attention of big shots. He wants big ratings that come from big entities and big names interpreting what he said. If only like the arta;s and barefooted's at dagblog and the like are looking at reports of his appearances, that's not going to satisfy him, that's taking away what he wants and will really hurt his modus operandi. He's only got Twitter then.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 2:58am
Another entry for Ripley's Believe it or not!: even Fox's Politics Editor is embarrassed by being used as troll food at Trump's rallies and White House press conferences:
Fox News editor: We should stop having reporters at Trump rallies
By Justin Wise @ TheHill.com, Aug. 3
Actually, this just sort of clarifies things for me. All White House "presentations" over recent decades have been about spinning. Trump has just pushed things waaaay over the line all of them can stand. Virtually all of the big media entities cover things with a political p.o.v. in mind and Fox has really gone over the line with that, spinning narratives created with cherry picked facts. So for their politics editor to complain here is just more proof that the Trump stuff is all terribly blatant kayfabe shows. It's just demeaning for them not because of the antics of the crowds or even because of this or that narrative that may be pushed at the time, but because all of it is such blatant "showboat theater" as he puts it, it's not serious stuff at all. It's just entertainment for the fans and the journalists are treated like bit actors.
Edit to add: I still like the comment of that local Fox news guy about Trump fans wanting selfies with Acosta after the fact. in seeing through a lot of stuff that goes on here. The fans like Trump like they like professional wrestlers, they just like to role play in his games. They do like the roles he sets up for them to play, but a lot of them probably don't translate these the same way for real life. A lot of this stuff always did impress me as the same thing as Yankess fans vs. Red Sox fans throwing shit and yelling names at each other. I always wondered if a lot of those "fans" would really agree with this or that policy advocated by the Trump admin (vs. the Trump wrestler bullshit) if asked by a pollster who didn't tell them it was a Trump admin policy. It's all buying into the Trump persona, that's all, little else is real here. And it's demeaning for journalists because one of the "fun" memes is attacking them. (Before people blame this tendency on right wingers a reminder that bashing "the MSM" was one of the favorite themes on lefty blogs during the Bush years. People like to hate them for some reason.)
by artappraiser on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 10:39pm
P.S. A reminder that Jay Rosen of the NYU Journalism Institute, suggested two days after inauguration @ his blog PressThink.org:
Send the interns
Put your most junior people in the White House briefing room. Recognize that the real story is elsewhere, and most likely hidden.
Because: the real story is elsewhere. He could see right away that they were going to do culture wars as a distraction kayfabe show. He had seen it before, it's been going on since at least the 80's (our host Michael Wolraich got into this in his first book). He knew instinctively from just a few Spicer briefings that we were going to do alternate reality as a distraction from reality
Amazing that he was also already using the other n word!
He just probably had no idea how extreme it would get and how long professional journos would take the bait.
by artappraiser on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 10:49pm
A white terrorist blocked traffic near the Hoover Dam.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/crime/courts/suspect-in-hoover-dam-standoff-writes-trump-cites-conspiracy-in-letters/
Krazy Kat is already out of the bag.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 11:14pm
It makes no sense to put that as a reply to my comment. It really doesn't have much to do with what we are discussing here.
To block traffic the way he did, with the expectation of possible police action against him, is for this purpose:
to get media attention to his cause or ideas or self
So you are in favor that he should get more serious media attention, like he desires?
And moving on from that, if he is found to have had terrorist motives
(which I note from reading the article in full, he is clearly trying to argue against the idea that he had terrorist motives in the letters he sent out--no doubt looking for leniency)
he has found a ready and willing victim in you because you have been terrorized by what he did?
And you would like to be more terrified by more media attention being given to these types and more media attention to the fantasy (as in not real, as in things he claims in his rallies that are not being done by his admin) garbage Trump likes to feed them in his silly narcissist rallies?
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 12:02am
Krazy Kat is already out of the bag.
Yeah, long long time ago now. The Turner Diaries was published in 1978. Ruby Ridge was in 1992 Timothy McVeigh perpetrated the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. One could even argue Charlie Manson's group was ahead of their time by trying to start a race war in 1969 by doing an set of murders made to look like blacks did it and terrorize the whole nation against "the other".
I'm pretty sure more media attention is not the answer, unless it is ridiculing them as miserable failures, that is.
P.S. Osama Al Qaeda theory # 1: do stuff that will get media attention in order to terrorize huge numbers of people into a fearful state and pit groups against one another.
Russia troll theory #1: get attention for disruptive memes, go viral, pit groups against one another, ramp up emotions like fear of the other.
Trump trolling: get people like rmrd's knickers all in a twist by getting heavy coverage of ridiculous things said to a hand picked audience of fans who also like wrestling as much as he once did and get their rocks off by getting media attention and being able to dis that attention (15 minutes of fame.) BUT MOST OF ALL, # 1: GET YUGE RATINGS! Go back to D.C. refreshed by the chants of the fans, hope I got all the liberals angry and staying tuned to; MOI, LE ROI of the ratings, heero, star of the universe, high quality I.Q....I deserve all this attention
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 12:31am
Here's Michael Wolraich's first book, published 2010, Amazon.com photo of cover and summary. SAMO culture wars to 'BLOW SMOKE" or cover up and distract from what's really going on by having people argue over stupid emotional stuff like Christmas and more serious emotional stuff like race and homosexuality.
Comes to mind no surprise that Gingrich and Palin were both strong supporters of Trump as they were his progenitors at attacking a lot of the same things like the "lamestream media" Certainly Trump spent a lot of time listening to Bill O'Reilly, lot of times we are hearing things he probably memorized from his show, they are very alike, actually.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 1:20am
for those who want more serious input on this whole thing, there is a thoughtful roundup piece by John Cassidy @ NewYorker.com How to Counter Donald Trump’s War on the Media
which reminds of several recent developments like the U.N.'s statement which echoed one that A. G. Sulzberger, the publisher of the Times, delivered to Trump in a recent meeting at the White House
and then also links to other things including an article by about Trump's lie my colleague Susan B. Glasser noted earlier today, the Post’s fact-checking team hasnow logged 4,229 of them, and they are getting more frequent.
Glasser's piece, It’s True: Trump Is Lying More, and He’s Doing It on Purpose, is long, extremely sophisticated, complicated and nuanced and gets into the current controversies not just in the media but then she segues into academia, on how historians and poli-sci people are arguing about how to approach this increasingly lying presidency with his fantastical lies still supported by a large section of the country . In the end the Glasser piece gave me a headache trying to grok that whole thing, it really gets into the whole "what really is truth?" question, you have what people believe is truth and that's truth about people currently alive, and then there is some kind of objective truth? It is the problem of social sciences, in that they are about people, not facts..,,.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 4:11am
by Peter (not verified) on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 10:25am
Lot of rabidness going around, though. The snowflakes are not imagining that Trump is saying that the media is the enemy of the people extremely often, so much so that it could easily be characterized as rabid . To the point that even his daughter has felt it necessary to publicly disagree with him about that.
Edit to add: do you think we don't notice that you pipe up here on dagblog with your "crazed snowflake" rant when things look real bad and you can't think of any other counterpoint to make?
Further edit: it would be so refreshing if you straight out admitted you like having a troll as president, that you admire his troll technique in inflaming "snowflakes".
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 12:34pm
Why do you call us snowflakes you little shit? We're not melting we're standing up and pushing back. It's not just antifa that will take you and your fellow travelers on. I and lots of other people hate Trump and we are more than willing to fuck you and other Trump supporters up at a moments notice. I'm serious. I've stood up to fully armed militia wanting to trespass on this land looking for immigrants and kicked them off. I'd have no trouble facing down a little piss ant like you. You and the rest of your Army of Cleatus are the ones who are deranged.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 1:13pm
I notice Peter always takes care not to name call "us" as snowflakes, he is always using the third person, i.e. them over there, not dag bloggers.
This is to snag someone to identify with and defend the snowflake group(s). And then he can attack more easily, he knows where the easy marks are.
It is a smart troll move to get around moderation rules of not personally attacking another member.
But interestingly, it is also what the Russian trolls were using to sow divisiveness, in order to get people to align in offensive and defensive enemy tribes, rather than to have individual varying opinions and complex discussions.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 2:20pm
I've said it often and I'll say it again. Peter comes here just to insult us. It's not even the dubious justification of occasional insults within an issue based comment. There is no issue addressed in his post. There's nothing there to discuss except whether we are snowflakes, are deranged, or need medication to deal with it. If someone doesn't like my comment, I'm addressing the only issues peter brought up for discussion. I know I get pissed about that more than any one else here. But I don't come here to be insulted and I'm not going to just ignore it.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 2:42pm
Trump was sent by God..!!!?? To raise my pay $0.85¢, grab nations by the pussy, insult LeBron and lock kids in cages..!!
Promises kept!
by NCD on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 3:13pm
nice pix! red white and blue buddies fuhever, we got your multi culti right heya, unite in one world gummint! all stable geniuses (genies?) allowed in the rulers club!
(To think we once bothered to get deranged about a teeny little Mission Accomplished show on an aircraft carrier. Some of the output of this admin is just so bizarre.)
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 3:23pm
Who’s the real dummy? A man who puts kids in classrooms or one who puts kids in cages?” Lemon said on Twitter. He included a #BeBest hashtag.
Melania supports LeBron, and Mike J. also.
by NCD on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 4:25pm
lol, excellent! I would have probably missed that link.
A reminder > Melania is rumored to watch CNN, ya know, just saying.
If one is going to get into taking a troll's bait on the narrative, this is certainly the way to do it.
Lemon does know his way around this stuff, impressed once again.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 6:06pm
More thoughts, I think this is the key, said so well in a phrase: the NBA star told anchor Don Lemon that he thought Trump was trying to divide the country by using sports as a wedge.
He does this with all culture wars issues, mho, he isn't even sincere about all of the ones he uses to do it. Some of it is play acting, role playing he saw Bill O'Reilly or some such do, and get a good rise out of people (i.e.: Christmas!) In the end, it's distraction from the witch hunt, but more so it's just fuel for his narcissism, as the fans are passionate and even the enemies help increase the Trump ratings as he sees it. It's all about him and what he thinks.
This goes back again to beginning of this thread. Screaming back in kind, that gives him what he wants, a wedge between two camps screaming at each other. That is why I said I thought the Politico reporter was doing the right thing. The professional press at the very minimum shouldn't be feeders of the troll's wedge Especially on the issue of itself!
And this is why he picks sports as a favorite: because that is one area where people feel freer to hop on a team and scream at each other. My understanding (second hand!) is that sports talk radio is actually more popular than political talk radio. And you have the same divisions in sports journalism: the cool analysts (mostly on TV and print) and then there's the punditocracy ramping up the kayfabe.on radio for the old folks and probably twitter for the youngins.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 6:25pm
Another news item today makes clear that If media is going to give him "air time" for his bait (which many linked to on this thread argue against, feeling it's feeding the intentional distraction) the Achilles heel is to embarrass the narcissist troll. As in:
Trump believes Mueller is using Manafort trial to embarrass him: report @ TheHill, 08/04/18 06:35 PM EDT
....has reportedly been privately venting about the trial of his former campaign head Paul Manafort, believing that it is an attempt by special counsel Robert Mueller to embarrass him.
The Washington Post reported Saturday that Trump thinks both the media and Mueller are using Manafort’s trial on bank and tax fraud charges this week to try to undercut his presidency....
That also, though, argues that the best way to humiliate him is to just ignore his rally crap and keep on doing what initially drove him to the distractions: continue spending journalist time on covering the Manafort trial.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 6:55pm
Agree. There is absolutely no reason for cnn or any national media to cover his rallies. They're all the same, and the absence would be like the Roman Colosseum without the condemned, no fun for the bloodthirsty mob. 24/7 on Manafort and the Red gun woman.
by NCD on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 7:30pm
I’ve seen networks carry bits of Trump rallies. I suspect that outlets like CSPAN allow access to the entire event and video is available there and on YouTube. Trump got a ton of free advertising from MSM in the run up to the election. What I see on news programs now seems to have corrected what went on previously. The snippets we see, the anti nes media rants and QAnon are important to see.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 9:17pm
And the communications team @ CNN are on it, trolling him back
And I would like to add this note in particular for barefooted: this is what I meant when I said they make money at this. This does not hurt them when they take his bait and run with it, it gets them more eyeballs. It becomes good ratings, Trump knows how to pick the emotional topics. Anti-Trump is the majority. And CNN, they can sell advertising by playing the game.
I don't necessarily think it is 100% bad for the country, if they can do it this well. They are not taking him seriously, not getting angry, rather they are dissing him.
But I still admire the people who don't this more, the people who would rather not take the president's bait, but spend the time on like, the Manafort trial.
It takes one back to Wolraich's first book: what are they actually trying to do by riling the country up arguing over Christmas. I think professional reporters should not be doing culture wars unless it's analysis of same. It's fine for infotainment TV, that's where culture gets changed.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 7:14pm
It's been obvious that Trump's good for ratings - both TV and online clicks - since at least 2015. Trump made a point of it during his campaign, as I'm sure you recall, even refusing to do a debate unless they paid him and choosing to do a (basically fake) charity benefit for veterans instead. Naturally that turned out badly but since we have the attention spans of gnats it wasn't a problem. It's the classic conundrum updated for the modern age of politics ... do you do the right thing or take the money and run?
That's what I think journalists individually and their bosses more broadly are dealing with now, in the new world of a Trump presidency. They are very aware that free publicity during his campaign makes them in at least some way culpable for what it wrought, yet they were as blind as the rest of us when it came to the possibility that that man wasn't just a joke; a caricature playing the role of candidate. Hindsight isn't only 20/20, it's a bitch. This place we're in as a country is being redefined daily, and the role of the press is in the thick of it. The frightening part, though, and the reason I'm truly concerned is that it's so much more than a theoretical discussion or even an academic one. Today, now, it's come to serious threats and (at the very least) psychological abuse. Trump and his believers think if they push hard enough the fourth estate will fall away ... are they right?
by barefooted on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 12:26am
Your comment here is so well written, barefooted, it stuck in my mind. So I thought of it right away when I went to my Twitter feed just now when I saw the NYT White House guy (infamous himself because of Melissa McCarthy's Spicey skits) do this reply directly a few minutes ago to one of Trump's tweets of this morning which was particularly pernicious:
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 12:11pm
by Peter (not verified) on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 10:06am
Peter, since you have told us what you think about what the snowflakes are up to, I would like it if you also favor us with what you think about the believers in the QAnon narrative(s)
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 2:24pm
by Peter (not verified) on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 10:22am
Thanks for replying seriously, it's interesting to know, tells me you're not totally insane in that you see them as practicing an alternative reality scenario. It suggests that you have a capability to see what you are doing.
I wouldn't have been surprised if you were a fan, precisely because your snowflake rants make you sound like you might be. The rants strike me as just another attempt at trolling a ramp up of "us vs. them" tribes, the tribes based on fandom vs. hatred of one man. I really didn't like the whole Obama savior mania when he was running in 2008, so I surely don't think much of your support of Trump via this method. Where I am coming from: you're promoting the politics of personality and celebrity and demagoguery by doing that. If you used online communication to support one policy or another of Trump's and to mock those against it, that I'd respect. But I don't respect your snowflake rants for that reason, you're participating in a destructive game.
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 12:07pm
so let's move on to another silly conspiracy. It does not bother you in the least that our president continues this morning to tweet Orwellian nonsense like this? Who the hell is this bogeyman "Fake News" anyhow? He is apparently saving the American people from it, but we really don't know who it is. You think it's more important to deride a group you call "snowflakes" when the supposed leader of the free world is spewing such childish scary nonsense? He's clearly role playing a dear leader character from dystopian fiction. I really do think any rational person should be ashamed of this man as president, even if they agree with policies he ran on. It's no excuse that he feels persecuted, it's simply not presidential to fight back this way, as if you can't take heat you shouldn't be in a presidential kitchen with your finger on the button, it screams: this man is mentally ill. Get real, see the reality of it in your face. He's presenting as mentally ill and a crazed angry leader. I am cynical that he really is, but that doesn't matter, the mere fact that he's doing it is worse than any "snowflake" problem one could imagine.
Edit to add: on the other hand, I just took another look at his tweet. Maybe I'm wrong to be cynical. This could be projection of one's own problems onto the bogeyman: They are very dangerous & sick! If I was this man's wife or child, I would be very concerned. Imagine any other powerful man reacting this way to such problems, like a CEO. The board would say: that's it, you're fired, go get thee some professional help pronto.
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 12:37pm
It is a bag of mixed nuts. You have all kinds of flavors from A. Jones, Bannon, Roseanne Barr, Pirro, Gingrich, Pats Robertson, and Hannity. They all say they believe all kinds of various things or at least say stuff out loud with firm conviction. From what I can gather from the various offerings from the detachable Peter, he or she believes some kind of a confluence of Ayn Rand and Richard Spencer.
In regards to the ugliness on display at Trump rallies, however, the origin story of each participant's belief system is not as important as the orgy of violence released by the language of intimidation that is the coin of Trump's realm.
The reason why "snowflake" sounds like a schoolyard taunt is because that is exactly what it is.
As David Byrne once sang: "That is why first impressions are often correct."
by moat on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 3:41pm
At some level you must realize that this hate driven snowflake behavior is self-destructive and dangerous. Supporting the ends justifies the means and by any means necessary aggression will drive more people away from failed liberal ideology because these are commie tactics. This is also an attempt to create an alternate reality where the humiliation of Trunp's victory can be overcome by repetition of fake news. projection and victimhood propsganda.
by Peter (not verified) on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 10:47am
Costs of products will increase because of Trump’s tariffs.
The United States intentionally separated parents from their children.
Healthcare costs will rise directly related to Trump’s actions.
The lies Trump tells about his ties to Russia are catching up with him.
Even Trump’s wife is disagreeing with him.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 11:51am
No I'm sane, over 21 and with a graduate degree, I don't realize stuff that makes no sense at all at any level.
But "at some level", that is, after interacting with you a bit, here's something I do realize: that after you let your guard down and actually communicate like a humanoid, it's like that causes you to short circuit, like: oops I wasn't supposed to do that, I was supposed to spew agitprop. And then you spew a quick dollop of nonsense Trump agitprop, as if you have to atone for writing simple English. This particular spew here is some of the funniest I've ever seen, it's definitely the quality of Saturday Night Live parody. It's especially hilarious how "commie" is one of your favorite meaningless catchall slurs, that's so retro.
You really have no clue how ridiculous this comment sounds? It's getting really hard to believe. It's like you are two different people when you switch back and forth between "the spewer" and "the converser". For that reason, it almost seems like you are on a counter ops mission to imitate a Trump supporter in order to make them look bad.
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 1:44pm
While our politics and policy objectives are diametrically opposed how do you and your fellow travelers differ from me and my fellow travelers to the extent that our emotions are involved? Your comment could be written to you as well as to me. The end justifies the means has been the republican mantra at least since the tea party took control of the republican party. More than I would advocate for the democrats. Hate of the "Libtards" has been your foundation. The only reason you call us snowflakes instead of libtards is because the shitty moderation of this site allows one but not the other. Hatred of each other is all we have in common. Let us acknowledge it. I'm quite comfortable in acknowledging I hate you, those who travel with you, the policy you advocate, and your vision for America. I've stated it in several threads and argued about it mostly with Flavius, who believes hate is wrong. You, I doubt will admit it since you are a congenital liar similar to your idol Trump. But what other than hate could motivate you to come to this liberal site for the sole purpose of insulting us. What besides hate could motivate you to indulge in such a colossal waste of time.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 6:43pm
He's a troll. You don't troll your fellow travelers, you wait for the folks who walk over the bridge you live under and try to scratch their ankles. A troll doesn't care enough to actually hate them - a happy-go-lucky troll only lives for the moment of contact that creates blood and cries of pain - because hate is an emotion that expresses itself too succinctly.
It strikes me every time Peter appears; with his long, unkept beard, bedhead hair, torn yellowed tee-shirt and even more yellowed underwear that what we are doing by responding to his dirty fingernail scratches is exactly what arta keeps saying not to do with Trump. And frankly, Trump's much better at it ... at least he has people who like him.
by barefooted on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 10:42pm
No. Sometimes trolls eat you alive. From 1882-1968, 4,743 lynchings occurred in the United States. 4,743 in less than 100 years. Some when we were alive. Whole families, women and children, would go there to picnic. The lynching was the entertainment. They took pictures to keep as souvenirs.It was a party. Take a look at the smiles and laughter. They were having a good time. Have you read the red state sites or reddit or things like the gamergate harassment campaign? When they say they're going to rape you and kill you they mean it. Oh they probably won't actually do it most of them are still afraid of the law but in the moment they say it, they mean it. They mean it in the moment while they're filled with rage and hatred. If there was no law or the law supported them or turned a blind eye you don't want to believe what they would do. The first half of the video is a parody but the second half is a true depiction of a very real possibility. I'm not fooled. We have not evolved beyond those 4,743 lynchings. We have not evolved beyond those who chanted for blood in the coliseum. We aren't some different and better species than our blood thirsty ancestors.
Look, they hate us, us bleeding heart liberals. They have always hated us down through the millenia. They'd put on brown shirts and drag us from our houses if they could. Oh I had my peace, love and flower power
daysdaze but I don't believe any more that will work. It has always been a fight and each step forward will need to be fought for. Some times in that fight there will be blood. I'm willing to shed it or draw it. You may think I'm kidding but I'm not. You don't know me or what I've done. I'm serious. And I'm not alone. I'm not the only one who thinks this way. The hate and rage goes both ways. The source and reason for it may be different but it exists on both sides.by ocean-kat on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 2:42am
Those aren't trolls.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 2:51am
You, barefooted, others, think you can tell the difference. I don't think you can. And when you guess I think you'll be wrong most of the time you say, "They're just trolls."
by ocean-kat on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 3:20am
I'll admit I do think I can tell the difference and I do disagree with you. It's not based on nothing, it's because I've had long private message conversations with a couple of pretty major trolls as a moderator before I started at TPM Cafe. And they wrote worse hateful stuff then this guy. They weren't site specific, they were two guys known allover the blogosphere. Because I was known as a moderate and would argue with the far lefties, they sort of let go with me and would talk to me about why they did the stuff they'd do. I am 99% sure that he got pleasure from seeing you get all riled up, I can see him cackling and rubbing his hands and going "oh goody I got a libtard/precious snowflake to reveal." They especially like to do it to real passionate outraged liberals, they want to see such types get outraged, doesn't just confirm their prejudices, gives them a thrill. We are mostly boring to him here precisely because we don't get mad.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 3:48am
Just because you've had a couple of long private message conversations with a couple of major trolls doesn't mean you know them all. That's insufficient data for me to trust your word. It should be insufficient data for you. No one needs to get me to reveal. I hide nothing meaningful about myself. I've said much of this in shorter form on the "please don't hate" blogs that Flavius wrote. I wasn't riled up when I wrote on his blogs and I'm not riled up now. I'm actually glad to get an opening to say it since it's something I've been thinking about for years and especially when reading about gamergate harassment campaign and the misogyny in the gaming community.
Excepting that I burn with a cold white anger almost all the time.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 4:22am
Well that's fine. Did you see me say anything against what you said at the time? I really don't see it as being that disruptive here.I find what he does and how you react interesting. Part of this whole social thing is learning about the society. I know it angers you that he plays here, it just doesn't anger me at all, it's more like practice for dealing with similar people in real life. He's a curiosity.
New York City, on the other hand, is getting nastier by the day, let me tell you, need all the practice I can get. Nasty, angry, miserable, depressed and depressing, that about sums it up.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 4:22am
I do try to post only when I think I have something interesting to say.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 4:26am
Congrats, Peter - you got what you wanted. Too bad I can't get what I want and have your comment deleted from the discussion thread that I began because it, as ocean-kat noted, has nothing to do with anything.
by barefooted on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 4:05pm
Ah, but you can - just point out from where you want it deleted and I remove it all. Or just his part of the comments, not the followups.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 2:54am
Once upon a Saturday I would have taken you up on removing Peter's comment, but unfortunately there has been too much action under the troll bridge to consider it now. Thanks, anyway, for the offer.
by barefooted on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 3:14pm
Added some trollish avatars for good measure then to make obvious crossing that bridge... clip-clop, clip-clop...
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 4:01pm
by barefooted on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 11:57pm
AA feels free to name me in her responses. To be clear I have never worn knickers. I do realize that hate crimes have gone up under Trump. Hate crimes existed, but they have increased after the election of Trump.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/03/23/hate-crimes-rose-the-day-after-trump-was-elected-fbi-data-show/?utm_term=.682de965e918
AA is in a bubble. She feels that there is no increase in white people calling police on blacks for black people merely existing. If these episodes were common in the past, the black community would have been aware by word of mouth, black news media, and telephone. Don Lemon interviewed LeBron James last night. The focus of the interview was the school James opened in Akron. During the interview, the subject of calling the police on black people came up. James believes, as I do, that the events are increasing and encouraged under Trump.
https://heavy.com/news/2018/08/don-lemons-lebron-james-interview-video/
QAnon reprints the deplorables that Trump attracts. Exposing their irrationality and attaching them to Trump and the GOP is a winning tactic.
As if on QAnon, Peter arrives with his blather. Put people like him on camera. As has been done on CNN
https://www.thedailybeast.com/watch-qanon-followers-try-to-explain-their-absolutely-bonkers-pro-trump-conspiracy-theory?ref=home
Expose the vermin to the light.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 11:15am
AA feels free to name me in her responses
I certainly do when you place things in reply to a comment I make! Because It's common to acknowledge a person when they reply directly to something you wrote as a comment. (And when the reply seems to have little to do with the comment, it's also common to reply along the lines of "say what?" or "huh?" and perhaps try to imagine what that person is trying to get at.)
If you are attempting to be ignored like your posts are not there, you will have more success if you don't post as replies to other's comments.
By the way, I don't see that first Washington Post article as saying anything whatsoever about Trump rallies, only about election days in general. And even on elections, if one reads the article, it is not definitive on elections either, it's more clear that it's about a correlation or causation? problem, summarizing in the last paragraph that
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 2:10pm
The article says that hate crimes are increasing Trump is not helping the situation. The cases of the whit “microaggression” of calling police is something not seen before. You are not effected in your bubble.
Edit to add:
If QAnon wants to go public, shine the light on them. A roach who loves the light is one that be identified and address ed. The good people among the Nazis were identified by shining the light on them.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 2:56pm
I don't know how the article could not be clearer it is not what you seem to want it to be about, as it is titled
Hate crimes rose the day after Trump was elected, FBI data show
as in JUST THE ACTUAL DAY AFTER HE WAS ELECTED. And then it gets into how they rose the day after Obama was elected. It is about data from single days.Not about rising hate crimes over time. It is about election activity possibly encouraging hate crimes, i.e., disappointment with who won or who lost or who voted or who didn't or similar catalysts. Geez you could at least pick links which relate to the points you are trying to make.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 3:30pm
and this is what to do with the LeBron trolling by Trump. Point out how stupidly counterproductive it was:
STABLE GENIUS: TRUMP INSULTS LEBRON BEFORE CAMPAIGNING IN OHIO
Nothing like feuding with the hometown hero of the state you want to vote Republican.
@ Vanity Fair
to intimate how Trump is 1) far from a genius 2) losing even the little mind he once had
As Don Lemon put it in his tweet copied therein: "Who's The Real Dummy?"
Ridicule is how you handle a troll. Outrage and a lot of serious attention as a serious threat is giving the troll what he wants.
I have a lot of respect for Don Lemon, he's one of my favorite anchorpersons, I watch him more than any oher and pay more attention when his show is on. Especially because he tries to be non-partisan and to always keep things cool as opposed to stoking outrage fear or passion. He almost always handles Trump crap the right way, with analysis, cynicism and ridicule.
Edit to add: I note Lemon put a #BeBest hashtag on his LeBron tweet, that is a really fine touch, showing exactly what I like about him-the subtlely of his digs. He treats his audience as if they are intelligent and do not need rabble rousing or consciousness raising. He's a professional through and through, to the point of sacrificing his voting privileges so that his commentary cannot be easily assigned as partisan.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 4:04pm
AA is not in a bubble. Get your shit together.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 2:55am
oh I bounce around different bubbles, momi goes from the Bronx bubble and the Mt Vernon bubble where I often shop, to the Chelsea bubble. Ft. Lauderdale K-Mart parking lot and main P.O. to Art Basel Miami, back and forth, same day, over and over. White Milwaukee gays trying (not too successfully) to gentrify the 'hood to Wypipo land of parental units near West Allis, back and forth. Been doing it since I was 17, as my first job as a waitress in after hours restaurant with lots of mob clientele, and other denizens of the wee hours, where I also started a long lasting relationship with "The Doctor of The Streets" who had this Jewish friend drug dealer who lived right in the middle of it on 3rd and Walnut. The locals would not touch The Doctor's caddy while we would park there because he had it decked out with pimp white sidewalls.
But you know this drill far far better than I, I suspect.
Enough of that, I've got to write that recommendation for my 70 yr. old African American artist friend to go to Yaddo. He's definitely not a homey, taught at Yale, a friend once described him as "elegant and erudite." Talk about living in a bubble, he did that his entire life so far.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 4:14am
Recommend bubbletea or "Boy in the bubble".
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/07/2018 - 4:27am
Some interesting tweets on topic from media persons:
New York Times DC correspondent covering social safety net, ex-POLITICO, ex-Newsday, ex-City Limits.
@ProPublica national politics reporter doing@Electionland.Moderator of
@meetthepress and@nbcnews political director; Covering politics since '92by artappraiser on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 2:11pm
Two more examples of a response, @ TheHill.com
Fox News's Wallace presses Bolton on Trump tweet: 'What wars have we started?'
08/05/18 09:29 AM EDT
CNN's Brian Stelter airs clip of C-SPAN caller threatening to shoot him and Don Lemon
08/05/18 01:08 PM EDT
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 7:06pm
Da Scaramooch weighs in that it's dumb politically as well:
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 2:17pm
I just watched the 4 1/2 min. video currently on that page, the guy from "Reliable Sources" on a segment for CNN Money, and I thought it was very good, here's a direct link
Stelter breaks down Trump's 'storytelling' skills
I think one of the major important takeaways is that Trump fans enjoy Trump's infotainment storytelling, to them it's just fun, it's like a storytelling event and sporting activity combined. It's why fact checking and the like are not effective against his lies. The lies, they are part of metaphors for things they feel or just simply enjoy seeing expressed, if they themselves don't happen to feel that way. So it's like fact checking a fairy tale, not effective. Trolls work emotions, that's what they want to see too, they want an emotive reaction.
The "Reliable Sources" show itself of course is addressing this all with journalists; I see they have put up quite a few video clips at their Twitter feed, haven't watched any yet. Top one right now is "should reporters stop attending Trump's rallies?"
https://twitter.com/reliablesources?lang=en
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 4:16pm
The lies, they are part of metaphors for things they feel or just simply enjoy seeing expressed, if they themselves don't happen to feel that way. So it's like fact checking a fairy tale, not effective. Trolls work emotions, that's what they want to see too, they want an emotive reaction.
Yep, that's Peter. And like Trump, he usually gets his way.
by barefooted on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 12:01am
Kellyanne realizes she'd be out of work if she didn't have anyone bringing up facts to spin into alternate realities:
Kellyanne Conway: 'I don't believe journalists are the enemy of the people'
@ CNN.com
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/05/2018 - 4:54pm
the "professional journalist" argument in a nutshell:
Reminds me of how during the Bush years, lots of lefties disliked this (relatively recent) paradigm, arguing that the older British system of ideological journalism fit Post-Modern theory better on how there really is no such thing as objective truth, only stories, or "narrative". And where NYTimes was an enemy for some as purporting to be able to present truth through professional journalism.
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 3:03pm
This is to what he was referring ...
https://twitter.com/joelpollak/status/1026311482911281152
by barefooted on Mon, 08/06/2018 - 3:18pm