The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    Trump's gaining

    By Flavius on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 1:41am |

    at least if you accept the composite poll of polls  with which 538 today tops his report. 

    The actual  Trump numbers it posts on the right axis are  52.1 disapprove, 43.4 approve.

    I don't  have access to its  similar earlier  reports   but if you overlook the unsophisticated  approach . I confess to just placing   a transparent ruler on today's chart point  reflecting today's  approval , the highest since his swearing in before   " the greatest crowd in the history of Inaugerations (or was it  all   pubic events ever.) 

    Conversely ,relying on my badly-in- need- of- opthamology - glasses ,his disapproval number has been  trending down since mid 2017 ,most particularly since the Impeachment Hearings began.

    I assume  all  our guys  and dolls will start looking better when the primaries  with its mutually assured destruction - ends.

    They'd better.

     

     

     

    Comments

    If Trump is still viable after all that has occurred, it means that the republic has collapsed. If people are too busy to be informed, chaos follows.


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 9:25am

    Worse. They're informed and they like it.

    There are occasions when I think civilization is like the best- man's tux , rented for a   wedding..That the "Lord of the Flies" is not the imaginary construct , what's imaginary is -not  the Sermon on The Mount -but everyday courtesy and spontaneous concern for others. 

    Counteracted  by   getting  on a  #7 and being immediately offered a seat. Usually by a "minority".


    by Flavius on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 10:41am

    They're scared of you, Flave. Or think you're part of Public Enemy.


    by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 12:15pm

    Tweeted yesterday morning:


    by artappraiser on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 10:43am

    Interesting that Noah Smith of Bloomberg just tweeted that he became more "long-term optimistic" on all three of these areas this last year:


    by artappraiser on Sun, 12/29/2019 - 11:13pm

    tweeted 24 hrs. ago, just doesn't have that "end of the republic" ring to it:


    by artappraiser on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 10:46am

    Santa has been watching the naughty nasty children of the Left all  year and although it makes him sad they will get nothing but coal and switches in their stockings this year. 

    The growing legions of the good, kind and nice people of our great country will see their children's stockings stuffed with Peace and Prosperity  and can ignore the whining nasty naughty children until after this joyous Christmas season

    The switches Santa left behind will be wielded with firm justice by our wise and beloved President with his General of Justice to whip the tarnation and demons out of these deranged children so they might mend their evil ways and earn the right to enjoy the celebration of four more years of peace and prosperity next Christmas season. 


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 1:33pm

    You continue to believe your posts are coherent. How many times do you push your dishwasher button?


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 1:40pm

    What's wrong with coal? You dissing the workers of the Appalachians? And I thought The Donald was going to make coal Great again. Instead he's tweeting about dead people.


    by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 3:04pm

    Porn Stars and Chicken with Ukrainian Sauces
    Getting great loans after mind blowing losses
    Parties with Kings
    Bags full of Bling

    These are a few of my favorite things.

    When the Law bites
    When the Me stinks
    When I'm feeling sad

    I just think of my favorite things
    And then I don't feel so bad


    by moat on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 3:53pm

    yes


    by artappraiser on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 6:17pm

    Great

    Can I steal that for a t-shirt?


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 7:31pm

    It would be my pleasure.


    by moat on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 7:57pm

    Thx


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 9:33pm

    Anonymous , as I've said here I  admire a group of   friends, one of whom is very conservative,  who do great work.-  with the developmentally  disabled.

    . Do you know any liberals like that.? Just curious.

     


    by Flavius on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 6:54pm

    Conservative.
    What does that refer to?


    by moat on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 7:14pm

    Yes. I know bleeding heart Liberals who work for charities receiving lower salaries than their skills would be compensated for in the corporate world. 

    WTF. do you think only conservatives run companies or do charitable work?

    The problem with people like Ted, is that for Democrats to appeal to them, blacks, LGBTQ people, etc would have to be thrown under the bus.

    Here is another point, vulnerable Democrats risked losing elections to do the right thing by impeaching Trump. They kicked Ted in the shins. I think you would let Trump commit treason as long as you got Ted's vote.

    You just make up crap and try to sell it as truth. Then you go back to talking in riddles. As has been said, your only goal is to keep Conservatives happy.

    Edit to add:

    Asking Peter a question and expecting a rational answer is like talking to most Trump supporters. How many Trump supporters do you know will openly criticize Trump, most are like Romney and Collins, who talk a big game, then vote with Trump in the end.

    At the end of the day, we have to get Independents. McConnell will smile and stab you in the back. You are not going to convert Peter.

    My frustration is that you think Peter or your hypothetical Ted will change. 


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 9:27pm

    Flav, my liberal brother dedicated his career to helping people in need  and continues to volunteer in retirement. 

    The sad fact is that a life of good deeds and intentions can still pave the road to Perdition. 

    The last choice a person makes can be just as or more telling than all the others and we face a huge choice next year that we will own and will own us forever. 

    After watching for three years as many people even good people display ideological possession that has degenerated into cruel demonic obsession the right choice is clear. The least good people can do is stand up and shun the demonic forces they have aided and abetted it may be their last chance for redemption.


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 8:49pm

    So Trump should be called out as a traitor and racist?

    Edit to add:

    I think you create non-existent relatives.


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 9:34pm

    This is completely a meaningless comment because while you are talking about the people here, liberals, never Trumpers, I and those here you've insulted would say something similar about you and Trump's supporters.


    by ocean-kat on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 9:28pm

    Good for him  and thanks for a straight reply.That makes two of us acknowledging that  people with whom we .politically strongly disagree can also behave well.

    I vigorously support your brother's side but mostly don't consider people like Romney, McCain, the two Bushes and  even Reagan as demonically obsessed . Just politicians trying to advance their side(s)   which I strongly oppose..

     Clearly you  agree that  your  brother's political choice doesn't mean  he's  part of  the demon obsessed group.

    It does you credit  your emotions are so strongly engaged when without self interest involved. 

    ................................................................................................................................

     

    New subject :rmr, Do me a favor Ted is not a myth. OK ?  

     

      


    by Flavius on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 11:56pm

    If Ted exists and Ted thinks that blacks were better when their ancestors were enslaved, Ted is going to feel "kicked in the shins" when Democrats fight against voter suppression, etc. What message to you have for Ted that will lead him to vote for Democrats? Have you convinced your "brother-in-law" to vote for Democrats.

    The former Republicans I have contact with moved away because they hate the stench of Trump and his openly divisive message. Their core political beliefs of limited government and tax breaks for the wealthy have not changed. The Evangelicals feel that a demonic force has taken over the country. They are willing to label the chosen one because he is appointing unqualified judges who agree with their views on abortion, etc.

    What has been your winning message?

    Edit to add: 

    If Ted believes that blacks were better off when their ancestors were enslaved, is calling his brief racist "kicking him in the shins"? I'm trying to understand what you think makes Ted a victim.


    by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/21/2019 - 9:15am

    He exists , has conservative positions across the board and currently acts as Guardian for  a former client

    who's parents died after asking him to do that,

    One more example  of good  people with position  you-and I- hate.

     


    by Flavius on Sat, 12/21/2019 - 1:15pm

    You argued that by pointing out his obvious racism, we were kicking poor Ted in the shins. You implied that we could gain Ted's vote, if we simply stopped kicking Ted in the shins. Now, as was easily suspected, we see that Ted is a racist Conservative who is not going to change his vote. Ted does good things. Mussolini made the trains run on time.  You want to talk about Ted's finer points. Ted is a racist who happens to employ black people. Being a business owner does not absolve Ted from being a racist. Your chosen position is to stand mute. Why would I expect you to speak out when issues important to black voters came under attack? Re-read A Letter From a Birmingham Jail".

    I have conversations with Conservatives. I point out my differences with their positions. We are civil, but honest. A racist is not a good person. Bull Connor and Stephen Miller probably did/do good things.


    by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/21/2019 - 11:57pm

    A person's quality is  a composite of all her positions.

    She can be  impeccable with respect races and meanwhile  start the  leak in the  dam which ultimately floods Seattle. Or with racial positions  emulating  Trump's Secretary of Education .But sticks her finger in the leak.


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 12:40am

    What you say about the composite is obvious. What you implied was that pointing out Ted's racism would keep him from voting for a Democrat. There was no chance that Ted would vote for a Democrat. In addition seeking Ted's vote would mean that you are willing to throw the political interests of black people under the bus without a second thought. When Omar made comments that hinted at anti-Semitism, she was confronted by fellow Democrats.When Tamika Mallory talked about her friendship with Louis Farrakhan, she was criticized. You suggest that we set a separate standard for racist Ted. Why do you want a double standard?

    Once again you answer with diversion.


    by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 7:55am

    Flav, we have watched the Left and the Party that represents it devolve into postmodern... [If you want to spew conspiracy-minded propagand, go start your own blog. Rest of your nonsense deleted. - PP]


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 12/21/2019 - 2:57pm

    Anon.

    As a society we're in process,  haven't yet developed the self control intelligently to use this medium. Your side-including you ,and mine .

    I remember as an adolescent throwing snow balls at a pretty girl . She sensibly turned and said "no one's ever going to like you (which of course what I already seemed was likely" if you behave like that.")I almost learned the lesson,took a couple more repeats but I ultimately.absorbed it.In desperation .Like most people. 

    Neither you nor far too many of the guys on my side have so far done that when confronting this medum. Still  in the  -abyss cries out to the abyss- of course. stage

    Try this experiment. The next time you feel like expressing  your hostility at this location ,address the first line of the text to me. Neither of us will conv.ince the other but at least we'll be behaving like adults not small boys with snow balls.And you'll know that at least someone has read your stirring prose.

    Cheers.

    And   btw MerryChristmas.

     

     


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 12:43am

    Flav, did you notice the petty little demon  here continues to censor my comments? 


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 5:12pm

    Oh, some tyrants are more equal than others, is that your bitch? I thought you liked Trump-Putin oligarchies with all discourse run through the head of state, censor out what they don't want revealed. Didn't realize censorship runs 2 ways, and bullshit has its comeuppance? A lot to learn, dude.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 5:45pm

    If I had the power I'd have completely eliminated your nonsense from this site. PP just removes the most egregious of the shit you post here.


    by ocean-kat on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 6:15pm

    'I'll bet you also wish you had the power to not be a loser living like a bum in the desert.


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 12:13am

    And I'd  bet lots of libertarian types would totally totally envy his lifestyle.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 12:20am

    rotflmao. I just bought 10 acres of land here in this desert. With a 300 ft well. The bio-region is actually called mountain prairie. Enough rain to be mostly grassland with lots of mesquite, and cactus. Retired now but I had a job here for the last 8 years. Not at all a bum. I'm winning dude.


    by ocean-kat on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 12:44am

    But you may get tired of winning, as promised. Anyway, difference between a desert bum and a desert dueño seems to be some careful planning and hard work. Go figure. That simple? Maybe a bit lot luck too?


    by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 2:06am

    All part of the plan but I didn't expect it to go this well. I would be retiring on some piece of land but luck played a big part of how nice it is. I had thought just a lot or maybe 5 acres with no well. I've been very lucky.


    by ocean-kat on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 2:25am

    Serendipity plays a big part in The Black Swan. Congrats - I have a feeling you deserve it, but even if not, enjoy.


    by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 6:57am

    Did you win the lottery or did someone die and save you from poverty?

    If you have lots of mesquite you won't have much grassland. I had the mesquite dozed out on my 40 acres in SE Az and the the grass was two feet tall in a couple of years. Then I planted a couple thousand desert pines and in a few more years had a herd of javelena , deer, raccoons and a great horned owl hooting at me from  his perch in the trees.

    A mountain lion or jaguar visited one night and when I filled my irrigation ditch ducks appeared out of nowhere. The only annoying critters were two A10 Warthogs that targeted me for a strafing run at 50 feet one day when I was driving my tractor. 


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 12:59pm

    I worked. I've always worked. I had my first part time job at Woolworths when I was still in high school. Why would you assume anything different? This is where we are different people. You make negative judgments based on absolutely no information. The only conclusions I make about you are based solely on your comments here. I have no opinions about your personal life or how you made your money. I think you're a shit because of what you post here, for example, this little exchange with your nasty fraudulent attack.

    My parents are both alive and 90 years old and though my life will be easier when they die they help very little now. A few hundred dollars gift for my birthday and Christmas.


    by ocean-kat on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 4:15pm

    Sorry you didn't make the cut or rather conversely you  were yourself cutl


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 6:19pm

    Flav, I don't like being patronized by old commie twats either.


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 11:56pm

    Peter, did you ever consider receiving counseling? Former Fox News psychiatrist Keith Ablow has a mentoring and life counseling practice, link. 

    His medical license has been suspended, but that's probably due to deep state (Massachusetts) Trump, Fox News haters, his mentoring practice is likely busy with many of your type.


    by NCD on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 6:27pm

    Qualified shrinks are already offering treatment programs for TDS afflicted snowflakes and they will be busy for at least the next 5 years. Check with your Madicaid provider for details.


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 12:21am

    Ablow doesn't take Medicaid, maybe your more successful brother can help finance your therapy for the affliction you obsess about here.


    by NCD on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 2:15am

    Trump is a genius but you can't see his grades.
    Trump is healthy but you can't see his medical report.
    Trump is rich but you can't see his tax returns.
    Trump is innocent but you can't see the unedited transcript.
    Trump is honest but you can't question him or his staff.
    Do you think maybe he's a total fraud?


    by NCD on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 2:00am

    No one is giving up. The reality is that 2020 should be a blowout election in favor of the Democrats, but Trump continues to have support.

    Edit to add:

    The country is divided. No big surprise. Addressing the fact that we are dived is not giving up. It is a wake up call.


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/20/2019 - 9:31pm

    Zero evidence of him gaining on FiveThirtyEight's impeachment approval graph averaging polls; if anything there's been a tiny uptick in Republican approval for impeachment and removal yesterday, which of course might be just an anomaly.


    by artappraiser on Sat, 12/21/2019 - 7:47pm

    According to Gallup, 46 per cent of Americans back removing Mr. Trump from office, 6 points fewer than when the impeachment inquiry began , due to lower support among independent voters.

    Saturday's FT


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 12:24am

    Find the right poll that bolsters your case - so many to choose from.

    https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/475619-majority-of-voters-ar...


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 3:59am

    Sure..

    Once Pelosi authorized the Impeachment investigation there was no going back." Oh yeah the President  violated a Congressional funding directive , attempting to multi use  it as also  a bribe to induce  a foreign power to intervene in our election. So , no one's perfect.You got a problem?" 

    If she hadn't anticipated fairly closely the likely outcome she'd have been irresponsible to the level of frivolity and they didn't do frivolous in Baltimore politics .At least not with D'alexandro' Baltimore politics.. 

     


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 8:01am

     Can you translate this into English?


    by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 8:11am

    Sure. The devil is in the details. See my comment elsewhere on the Trump organization's overkill on election day. Partly how he became a 3 million deficit winner.


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 8:26am

    See my comment below.


    by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 8:28am

    And that's why FiveThirtyEight is collecting them all and averaging. If one is going to get all worked up over Trump gaining or losing support as if it is going to change some Senator's hearts, theirs is the chart to look at. Also keeping in mind that the Senators have their own polls of their own constituencies.

    Myself, I suspect a significant minority percentage of Trump's general approval rating is due to people answering the pollster as if the pollster were asking "do you approve of the way the economy is being handled?" rather than die-hard Trump fans. Because they think the president has a lot to do with that and they like having jobs. But when they finally figure out what the president has been up to (like some evangelical Christians now who care about other things more than the economy) some are willing to say "that's a line too far" and agree with impeachment. It's not that many people but maybe enough, probably similar to the number who voted for Obama and switched to Trump.


    by artappraiser on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 1:28pm

    And a reminder about practicalities for Republican politicians in office everywhere: Pence as president would probably hurt them more than Trump does. I dare say he won't have any fans except evangelicals. Trump is simply a devil's bargain for those who aren't Trump fans themselves. They're stuck.


    by artappraiser on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 1:33pm

    Trump was a combination of factors that will not be easy to repeat. Pence will not be able to galvanize the number of people Trump has because Pence is a part of a coalition of special interests where Trump gained popularity by being the outsider who could crash the party and win the girl.
    While he is seen as the disrupter of what has been established, he will be supported by his base because no one else has signed up for that job.

    When what is outrageous becomes banal, the spell will be broken and all the hardcore fans will head for the turnstiles (to quote Neil Young).


    by moat on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 7:38pm

    Book with section on polling I was reading notes that sometimes people stop answering polls, especially in times of big events, so their change or steadfastness isn't recorded. 


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 8:00am

    Interesting. Makes sense. And must be hard to counteract in the polling design.

    Hard but maybe not impossible.In 2017  the NY Review carried an article on the Trump's organization' s vastly over

    topped Hillary's. Having identified not just pockets of the undecideds  but  also their hot buttons  and the media most likely reach them ,then on election day broadcast ads specially tailored by district to push those buttonsl Cambridge Analytic I think.

     


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 8:16am

    The media gave Trump millions in free advertising. While pointing out Hillary's negatives, media promoted all of Trump's rallies were televised. Shows like "Morning Joe" had Trump as a frequent guest. Next, Comey talked about re-opening an investigation, while remaining silent on an investigation into Trump's activities. Trump had Russian help, US media help, and Comey help.

    This time around CNN and MSNBC appear to focus on Trump's deranged statements during his rallies, the same treatment Hillary would have received if she made equally bizarre statements.


    by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 8:27am

    Sure. Here's anoether.There are good people and bad people.  Some of a particular candidate's support comes to him/her because voters  believe he/she is good. Everyone knows that. Right?.

    But isn't it likely the reverse is true. Bad human beings , like Donald Trump are elected by bad people who  vote for

    them because they are bad. Or good people being bad that day.

    We understand that a Hitler may prompt Krystalnacht or someone on a station in Rwanda or Bangalore can prompt the massacre of chosen target. But the  people themselves do it.

    Bad people. Or " .good " ones being bad that day..


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 11:05am

    Ted is a racist.

    Martin Luther King said that people of good conscience could not vote for Barry Goldwater. The same is true of voting for Donald Trump. Like Ted, Trump is a racist. Trump's policies have direct negative impact on the black community. You continue to divert from that fact in your support of people like Ted.


    by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/22/2019 - 8:43pm

    Some people might judge you to be a racist from what you write online, and they still choose to interact with you. Just sayin'.

    You always seem to move the goalposts of a discussion with Flav, which starts out with him saying something along the lines of "some of these people might just be convinced to vote another way if you just talk to them and interact with them like human beings", and you disagreeing, but moving on to "they" are all horrible sub-humans and need to be shunned. If not exactly "lock 'em up", you seem to get close. Sometimes it seems like you have been waiting for Trump your whole life, you like how he does the "us" vs. "them" thing, it's your cup of tea

    Edit to add. The discussion has now ramped up to this level, like these might appeal to you:

    Build actual walls between red and blue districts? Or like perhaps Democrats secede from the Union?


    by artappraiser on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 12:18am

    Wrong again, Flavius gave the special example of racist Ted. You chimed in agreeing with his assertion that Ted was being kicked in the shins if we called Ted out. I pointed out that the standard for Ted was no different than the standard for Omar or Mallory. Goldwater "allowed" black people to eat at the lunch counters of his department stores. Goldwater opposed the Civil Rights bills, and thus gets called out. You want a different standard for Ted.Most Republicans who back away from Trump appear to be backing away on moral grounds, not because of a great Democratic message.

    Pot, meet kettle. Regarding racism, you are the one who talks about pity olympics. You have no problem with Confederate statues or blackface, What are we to make of your racial bias when you chime in to support Ted? Ted is obviously not persuadable. I said that Democrats win when they seek out rational whites and ethnic minorities. That ain't Ted. 

    The conversation has been simply a conversation, you are the one revving it up. 


    by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 8:14am

    There are people with no good qualities. End of story.

    There are  also people who  do a lot of good and are conservative politically  . It's simply rational to think of  them differently than those with no good qualities . 

    And  to attempt to get their vote on particular cases where they're reachable. Some 2016 Trump supporters this time for example.

     rmrd0000  might argue that attempting to court them could so weaken our position we lose more votes from strong democrats than we  gain from these former Trump voters.. Perfectly reasonable concern . ut not a reason not to try. Just a reason to do it sensibly. 

    What isn't reasonable is to say we don't want to try  because we don't like those fallen away Trumpers. I like anyone who might vote right this tme.

     

     


    by Flavius on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 11:31am

    Flavius, there are Independents and Democrats who stayed home who can be court. There are Republicans who are shamed by Trump who can be courted. You selected racist Ted, telling us in your morally superior tone, that he could be courted. You then tell us about his total Conservative belief system.The only way Ted can be courted is to throw blacks under the bus. There are voters being courted. Ted is one where you respectfully agree to disagree. You don't seem capable of deterring the difference.

    You repeat the nonsense that I am saying that Ted has no good qualities. Ted is a racist. Ted is not going to vote for a Democratic candidate. It is not sensible to court Ted. You are overlooking persuadable voters. You are being unreasonable.

    You haven't turned Ted. Have you turned your brother-in-law?


    by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 11:54am

    You seem incapable of thinking of people as having complicated prejudices, to you they are either "racist" Trump supporters or non-racist Trump haters. Example: I have a WASP acquaintance who loathes Trump, used to be a registered Republican, is very prejudiced about the many Ecuadorian immigrants invading his small town and makes derogatory comments about them, but thinks Korean immigrants are the bees knees, hard working wonderful additions to the U.S.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 12:33pm

    Once again, cut the crap. You say people are playing pity olympics. It seems that is what you are doing for your friend.
    Your friend loathes Trump. It does not mean that he will vote for Democratic policies regarding immigration. It does not mean that he will support efforts to counter voter suppression. As I have repeatedly noted, there are many who object to Trump on a moral basis. That does not make them supportive of Democrats.


    by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 5:58pm

    Korean Democrats


    by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 6:35pm

    As you continue to elaborate on this thread, it's become clearer that you have litmus and purity tests that would make the Democratic Party a very small party, perhaps sorta like Labour has become in the UK. And that your definition of a "racist", who you don't want to be allowed into the same political party as you, may be extremely broad.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 7:49pm

    I really feel sorry for you. You and Flavius keep telling us to stop kicking Ted in the shins. Neither of you have a message that would encourage people to join the Democratic Party. Flavius gives us racist Ted and his brother-in-law. He has yet to say how his conversion therapy worked in either case. You give us a Republican who loathes Trump. You have not told us what message you would use to convert him to the Democratic Party.

    I could easily use your pity olympics, support for Confederates, and dismissal of the use of blackface as a reason not to support your political cause. It would be easy to say that given your statements, you would not consider issues important to black people as a priority.

    You call me a racist, despite my repeatedly stating that the only way to defeat Trump is a coalition of rational whites and rational ethnic minorities. This tactic worked in the midterms and in 2019. You and Flavius are the ones focused on turning the racist vote. I guess I associate with a better class of white people.


    by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/23/2019 - 8:09pm

    This performance is in three acts

    One

    I share with rmr and most of you  the conviction  Racism is bad. Here of course . Which is what  we've been  discussing  But I've personally observed it in South Africa.  And am sadly aware of today's  India . And ,say, of  black on black "racism" or rather oppression , for example  against   the Hutus .

    And today by  black South Africans who won't hire Africaaners. Plus ca' change.

    Whatever the term Racism is bad  But so are a number of other behaviors . Religious persecution for example.

    Some people who have any one of these behaviors have no offsetting good qualities.

    Not all. Racists  contribute to the NYTimes Neediest Cases . Ditto for bigots.

    Ms magazine had an edition on Women fighting sexual prejudice. Including Louise Day Hicks.

    Who also fought  busing.

    It's  clear what we ought to think about a Hitler. Less so about the Mitford woman who supported him . And conversely it is completely clear what we should think about firmly anti fascist Nancy .

    Sort of  like Anonymous with his liberal brother

    I  certainly know  of unredeemably  prejudiced people .A friend's a   gardner .At one estate, he has to wipe his feet on entering. On a door mat with  Hillary's face on it. 

    In the 50s Dag Hammarskjold's   assistant was  Ralph Bunche an American.Black.  Had been one of the Gunnar Myrdahl's assistants in writing the "American Dilemma ". When he visited our town one of the estate owner's neighbors  took Bunche to dine  at the Yacht Club  Two  members resigned on the spot. 

    Two

    How should we interact with someone who believes any one those bad things?

    Obviously  think how it can be in our interest.

    o Offer to drive them to the poll- and forget. Joke! ....Almost

    o Confirm we're right about what we think of them Two friends were in Iowa last weekend.I wouldn't have predicted that.

    o Leave the door open.Maybe next year they'll vote right

    But if that's not likely.  What then.

     

    Third

    Sorry rmrd the rest of their life also matters.

    I began this  describing  the very much not mythical Ted who is very conservative and has spent a career greatly improving the lives of severely developmentally disabled people.How should we treat him?

     

    Obviously  not how I  treat  how  the Estate  Owner.  Not even how I treat a plain vanilla MAGA enthusiast. The good Ted  has done has to count A lot.

    And Ted is not a racist. Go back and read again. He's very conservative.Not a racist.

    No one is who works with  the developmentally disabled. When you do,  at least  half of your co-workers are talented,wonderful  blacks who have migrated to  this work because so many occupations which ought to make use of  those great talents, are  closed to them . By prejudice. Ted  sees that every day . AOBTW   almost surely could  describe to you the last time one of them saved him from a black eye.

     

    edited to correct spelling

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     


    by Flavius on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 8:33am

    I was a trumpet player in the army band stationed in Japan. I met a lot of Japanese jazz players. Jazz is very big in Japan. Japanese classical players are some of the best in the world but there are very few who can play jazz. The jazz trumpeters are the worst. The best, really the only good trumpet player in Japan was Korean. He had trouble finding work. Because of racism.


    by ocean-kat on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 2:41am

    Calling Japs racist because some of them are xenophobic towards their Garlic Eater  cousins just shows how the twisted ignorant Leftist excuse for a mind generates the slop they proudly display today. Koreans are a People not a race you moron.


    by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 2:24pm

    This is what my Japanese friends told me. I'm simply telling their version of the story. As an outsider who only spent two years in the country I have insufficient information to form an opinion on that aspect of Japanese culture. You probably have even less knowledge of the country.

    Anyway your comment has nothing to do with japanese culture. You're just pissed that I correctly called you out for exactly who you are. You make up lies to attack the politicians you don't like. You make up lies to attack the people, democrats and liberals, that support them. It's really no surprise that you take it right down to the personal. You made up lies to insult me. That's who you are here. A person who lies to insult others. That's all you bring to the table here. You're pissed that I've seen through the facade that perhaps you even put up to hide from yourself.


    by ocean-kat on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 3:46pm

    You said that Ted thought that blacks were better when enslaved. You still have not told us if you actually converted votes. 
     

    Edit to add:

    You are focused on racists. My position is that there are more rational people of all ethnicities that are persuadable that there are redeemable racists.

    A second point is if you go after racists, there is a cost. To keep the votes of racists, it is likely that you will have to abandon voting on some concerns of ethnic minorities. I find your desire to grovel for racist votes unwise.

    Non-racists do all the nice things that you ascribe to Ted.


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 7:55am

    Sadly the person who  thought blacks were-or may  have been-better off under slavery was a close member of my family. An immigrant.


    by Flavius on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 8:26am

    Can you simply answer the question, did you convert Ted or your broth-in-law? You keep refusing to answer.

    If you did, you can go after anti-Semites like the Black Muslims, you can get them to vote for Democrats as well.


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 8:40am

    No. Didn't try.

    During working hours we work.


    by Flavius on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 4:11pm

    Maybe you won't, but I think related:

    Where we might differ. You like to sum it up as a overall good people vs. overall bad people thing. I'd like to sum it up a little different, like this. The overall tolerant = make up a majority. The passionate haters of all types, thrown together = still a minority.


    by artappraiser on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 12:46pm

    You and Flavius are the ones arguing that we appease bigots. It is not bigotry to not tolerate racists. The I agree with the argument that we don't need your bigot friend, Ted, etc.


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 1:40pm

    more....from the comparative poli-sci op-ed I posted in news...can't win nationally without some of those who are "right on culture":

    If, as research from the Voter Study Group showed, the average American voter is left on economics and right on culture, then this zone is the sweet spot for both the Republican and Democratic Parties. Yet as the British writer David Goodhart notes, Labour, like many Western left parties, finds it much more difficult to speak to the identity anxieties of the median voter over immigration, family and national identity.

    AND PRE-EMPTIVE: LEANING 'RIGHT ON CULTURE' DOES NOT NECESSARILY = RACIST.

    Also, in arguments, rmrd tends to expand "racist" to mean "all conservatives", really sloppily, too. Then we also get the simplistic partisan manichean world as if there were no such thing as a conservative or racist Democrat, where all Democrats are social liberals.

    When in reality, we should probably have four political parties, not two, the only reason we don't by now is that our system is not set up for it. All in all, I don't have any problem with calling his game nearly as delusional as with fans of Trump. Very myopic and tribal and simplistic, wanting to separate people into black and white categories both literally and metaphorically. As if this country wasn't on a fast track to a mixed race majority....When as I said before, every person has complex prejudices and preferences...as far as I am concerned, a lot of rmrd's attitudes and comments are enabling of Trumpism, trying to make an "us" vs. "them" situation out of something that is not.


    by artappraiser on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 4:37pm

    You presented a bigot. 
    We don't have four parties. Look at the messes in Britain and Canada.

    Democrats won with rational whites and ethnic minorities 

    Democrats didn't need bigots. You are the one arguing for appeasing bigots/racists.

    Did you convert your Republican bigot?

    Flavius was too busy to try with his 

    You remain in a (very small) bubble

    Edit to add:

    Let's try this again

    Trump is a racist

    People who vote for Trump are casting votes for a racist

    Trump has not bothered to hide his racism 

    People of good conscience cannot vote for Trump.


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 10:57pm

    See Dick run.

    See Sally run.

    See Dick and Sally run.

    See Dick and Sally run on. And on. And on.


    by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/25/2019 - 12:40am

    It is an honest assessment. People who are abandoning Trump are doing so because of moral rather than political issues. The repetition is from those who say that Democrats have to go after bigots to win. When challenged, they offer no political message that is effective 

    And on and on and on.........

    They have rhetoric, but no strategy. Dick and Sally are still running. No one kicked Ted in his shins.

    Edit to add:

    Democrats are running on health care. Republicans are running on bigotry. Democrats are not kicking Ted in his shins. And on and on and on........


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/25/2019 - 5:26am

    FFS, farmers & Midwest businessmen are abandoning Trump because the trade wars are hurting them. Moral? Political? Fucking money. People have multiple motivators. A whore is willing to pull tricks as long as it pays enough within expected difficulty - when it doesn't, she discovers morality. We're all pretty much that whore. Even our politics often follow the same arc. That's the core of the Christianity Today article & evangelists' bargain, seeling their soul to the devil for a mess of pottage. What's Bernie's popularity built on but higher minimum wage, free health care for all, free college for all, and soaking the rich - theoretically it's the "right thing to do" rather than cash register ka-ching. As for your health care, there's morality to sick people not being left untreated. There's much less moral clarity to the question of whether that treatment is paid by the state or their own efforts & pocketbook, or what each citizen's abilities are and whether that's the appropriate metric. And for some people it's not costs - it's whether there's even a functioning hospital in their county or other barriers to normal & emergency treatment. But is that a huge part of the campaign? Then there's culture war stuff - even here we have more debate on braids in private schools or blackface, vs. even police violence towards blacks, and the "chicks with dicks" bathroom & sports team issues have overtaken MeToo and the much more common everyday discrimination against women of all walks in employment, healthcare, personal safety, what not. (Yeah, we might call it the Bruce Jenner syndrome - we gravitate towards the marginal rather than fixing the horrific).


    by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/25/2019 - 8:42am

    From your run-on sentences

    As for your health care, there's morality to sick people not being left untreated.

    True

    Calm down

    Merry Christmas 

    Happy Hanukkah 

    Happy Festivus

    The data on the farmers is mixed

    Sticking

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2019/10/10/768635489/farmers-sticking-by-trump-even-as-trade-wars-bite

    Leaving

    https://www.ft.com/content/41b3c728-0a11-11ea-b2d6-9bf4d1957a67

    We don't agree on the "marginal" stuff. On the global stuff, we are like Thomas Friedman, merely offering opinions. Nothing inhibits you from posting on any subject.  The "marginal" often generates more interest because it is more personal, resulting in things like your run-on sentences.

     


    by rmrd0000 on Wed, 12/25/2019 - 9:14am

    First they came for misspellings, and I didn't say anything since I seldom mispell, and then they came for grammatical mistakes, and still I didn't say anything cuz I normally do quite good with grammar, so that by the time they came for run on sentences, there was no one to speak for me... Crucified at Xmas - talk about turnabout unfair play. Diss Passionate? 


    by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 12/25/2019 - 11:24am

    TURNING and turning in the widening gyre                                                                                                         The falcon cannot hear the falconer;                                                                                                            Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;                                                                                                        Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world                                                                                                             The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere                                                                                            The ceremony of innocence is drowned  ;                                                                                                              The best lack all conviction, while the worst                                                                                                       Are full of passionate intensity

    Yeats


    by Flavius on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 4:51pm

    What we have learned.

    You presented a man who said blacks were better off during slavery.

    You said nothing to him. 

    Your only response was to lament that he was being kicked in the shins.

    Who was doing the kicking?

    You seemed to be arguing that he could be converted.

    You did nothing. You never tried.

    End of story. 


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 5:52pm

    I don't think the "best" lack conviction. Multiple Democrats risked their seats in Congress to call Trump to task. This poem doesn't apply to our current situation.

    Edit to add:

    The more I think about, the falconer still has control of a significant number of the falcons.


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 11:11pm

    Merry Christmas.

    To all 


    by Flavius on Tue, 12/24/2019 - 11:07pm

    ICYMI: The ‘But I Would Vote for Joe Biden’ Republicans

    For some Democrats, a key part of the former vice president’s pitch is that their moderate friends and relatives like him, too.

    By Katie Glueck, 7h ago @ NYTimes.com

    CRESTON, Iowa — The voters at campaign events for Joseph R. Biden Jr. here in Iowa and across the country aren’t just shopping for a candidate for themselves.

    As they jostle to take pictures with the former vice president and listen to him preach about national unity, they are often thinking about someone else — a dad, a neighbor or a colleague. They consider the political leanings of people close to them who are uncomfortable with the most liberal presidential contenders, but who hate the chaos of the Trump era and are receptive to the kind of centrist, seasoned candidacy Mr. Biden offers.

    Some Democrats have been warning the party not to obsess over these potential swing voters, arguing that electability calculations about mythical undecided moderates are futile at this moment of extreme political polarization.

    But for many Biden supporters, those voters are their Republican-leaning relatives and friends. And their perspectives are an increasingly prominent consideration as the Iowa caucuses near [....]


    by artappraiser on Wed, 12/25/2019 - 11:34pm

    A factor rarely broached is if Bernie was the Democratic nominee, would that  "prove" he was just a "sellout" to the "corporate controlled corrupt" DNC ?

    Ergo....would the hard core lefty purity angels show up in the general?

    So, going for the center vote is a better move?


    by NCD on Thu, 12/26/2019 - 9:57pm

    So, going for the center vote is a better move?

    I found it interesting in that the article suggests Iowa caucus voters are all set to decide that for the rest of us! So why you worrying your pretty head about it? They got this!cheeky


    by artappraiser on Thu, 12/26/2019 - 10:52pm

    just now there was this thought-provoking comment in my twitter feed along the same lines:


    by artappraiser on Thu, 12/26/2019 - 11:03pm


    by artappraiser on Thu, 12/26/2019 - 7:34pm

    Compared to what ?

    538's top chart   "how unpopular is  Donald Trump? " is interactive

    On Sept 1 Trump scored 41.3%. Today he's  42.6


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/29/2019 - 12:04am

    yeah and I see in it the little spike the other day which probably influenced what you were reading. Now looks like just an anomaly of one or two polls.Only real change appears to be a dip in approval from May through Dec. 2017.


    by artappraiser on Sun, 12/29/2019 - 12:26am

    Incredibly consistent support (and disapproval). Statistically unlikely, except as ushers in some new phenomenon.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/29/2019 - 2:48am

    The  September to December comparison interested me because it brackets the House Impeachment and 

    Decision.  Given the experience of the Clinton Impeachment I'm relieved that  September to December  was as shown.


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/29/2019 - 3:56pm