MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Hits of the Day
Can Self-Defense Laws Stand Up to a Country Awash in Guns?
By artappraiser on Sun, 11/14/2021 - 8:31am |By Shalia Dewan @ NYTimes.com, Nov. 13
The Kyle Rittenhouse and Ahmaud Arbery cases raise intriguing legal questions about people who take the law into their own hands and then claim self-defense when someone dies.
URL:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/13/us/rittenhouse-arbery-self-defense.html?smid=tw-share
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Comments
I traveled to Africa and, in a period of time, I saw more serious fire power than I ever saw walking around in the United States. I saw an AK-47 and an Uzi just while walking.
I learned later on that, in what is a generally very stable country, you couldn't buy a gun through a legal process there at all. If you wanted one, you had to go through a network. According to conservative logic, this would mean gun crime would be worse than ever. Didn't appear to be the case, or at least they weren't reporting it or responding to it in the same way.
There may be guns in every single country on earth, so some deep soul searching is involved in figuring out why gun violence is like it is here.
by Orion on Sun, 11/14/2021 - 10:38am
I carry an AR-15, with a 100 round mag, concealed when in Texas. It's legal. Most do. Feels safer. That's why you don't see the fire power on the streets there.
by NCD on Sun, 11/14/2021 - 7:55pm
"Texans" that argue that, as ridiculous as it is, actually have a much more viable argument now that there is lots of handgun firepower being used on the streets in places like Chicago, Minneapolis, Miami and Austin, including lots of "collateral damage" to uninvolved bystanders. See @massshootingtrk for examples happening every day.
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/14/2021 - 9:45pm
Freedom isn't free. Whether its gun freedom or medical anti-vaxx freedom.
The Critical Holocaust Theory says if Jewish tailors and professors had guns they could have defeated the Wehrmacht and SS.
by NCD on Sun, 11/14/2021 - 10:20pm
Sounds heavy!
by Orion on Sun, 11/14/2021 - 10:53pm
I think that's because outside of use in war,,the AK-47 and Uzi's are symbols of control and power that tell other people to behave according to the owner's wishes. Even more so if the owner shows willingness to use them once in a while.
But it's the handguns that cause the real carnage in the United States. and this last year and a half there are a lot more of them doing that. Including lots of "mass shootings" that are only covered in local news if at all.
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/14/2021 - 9:48pm
If I bring a gun that I am carrying illegally to a protest and someone tries to take it from me, not my fault
If I chase down an innocent man and he tries to save his life by grabbing the gun thatI am pointing at him, not my fault.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 11/14/2021 - 5:28pm
hope you're gonna feel the same way about this trial:
from the older Rittenhouse thread started by Emma Zahn in Aug. 2020
I hope you will be watching that trial with just as much interest. After all, he could have killed someone too.
and that you consider the idea that there was another choice:
that no one should have been on the anarchic streets that night, especially with guns, but even without, as people were doing things like lighting dumpsters on fire next to gas stations:
And that illegal street protests at night, especially, but not exclusively, when they are against legal law enforcement hired by the local voters should be well, illegal.
That two or more negatives do not equal a positive situation.
That non-violent protest theory was based on the whole idea that one would show the law to be unfair by submitting to it, not by promoting anarchic situations where vigilantes end up attempting to kill one another.
Despite references to "Texans" on this thread, the wild west is still not really a model accepted by the majority.
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/15/2021 - 1:20pm
Rittenhouse traveled from his home state with an illegal weapon. He brought the illegal weapon to a protest. He lied and told people that he was a trained EMT. He pointed his illegal weapon at people. Rittenhouse cannot claim self defense given that he pointed his illegal weapon at innocent people. He was chased because he was the active shooter on the scene.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/15/2021 - 8:54pm
Interesting use of the term "innocent people" from you. So does that include a skinhead convicted sex offender who just hours before taunted other people with guns to dare shoot him, using the N-word? I'm going to remember that, that you think that's an "innocent person".
This is your argument,, after looking at all the videos available to the public, two simple-minded sentences. And you have the nerve on the other thread to say the prosecutors fucked up?
by artappraiser on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 12:02am
Infuriating you fuck up basic facts after all this time. Rittenhouse did not travel from his state with an illegal weapon - it was always in Wisconsin. Why do *you* have to lie? Then, the court ruled it was not an illegal weapon due to the gun being long enough and the statute being unclear (tie for murky statutes goes to the defendents usually). Did you not watch the fucking news? Have you been in a cave? I can disagree with the judge on various points, but these are the 2 least contentious points. Did he point the gun at "innocent people"? Well, a Tourette's-mouth bully was doing his best to be scary and intimidating - not necessarily enough for self-defense, but hardly Aunt Jenny watching from the sidewalk under her umbrella.
Argue the fucking case - enough with your spinning everything could a shoulda woulda. This isn't an advocate sight - go join a society of political loons if that's what you need.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 2:14am
Interesting phenomenon, FWIW, "Nancy Grace" is trending on Twitter right now because apparently she led a special show on the Rittenhouse case on Fox News this evening and pro-Rittenhouse people got very angry watching it. Some examples:
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/15/2021 - 4:12am
I firmly support the judge putting in strong measures to support a fair trial without pre-bias.
But I really don't mind people portraying Rittenhouse as a gun-enabled overeager self-absorbed little right wing brat.
I just want people who see him that way to recognize that that view is an *outcome* of a trial, not the assumption to go in with legally.
We came out of the Chauvin trial believing facts had been laid down and the outcome was fair. I thought his defense team was weak (and the police seemed to testify that absolutely everything is done by the rules, which is a bit magical), but that's between him and the defense.
Shutting down free media because Fox doesn't like the spin? well that's ironic.
I was wrong that Chauvin would be hard to convict based on the long video.
But I still think there's a good chance I'm right that Rittenhouse has a strong self-defense/non-intentional excuse, whatever his Ramboish posturing during a total Ramobish street shitshow.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/15/2021 - 5:26am
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/15/2021 - 1:51pm
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/15/2021 - 3:09pm
I just ran across this other example from Atlanta 2020 "protests" that is interesting to throw in this mix, especially because one of the two has been charged with murder and they have pled not guilty. I have no idea what their defense could be, it would be unlikely that they are going to claim self-defense against an 8-yr. old (!) but a group was certainly running a vigilante operation there and the D.A. claims it was being run by The Bloods. Perhaps self-defense against possible pro-police partisans who did not obey their orders and Secoriea was just "collateral damage"? Note the end where Secoriea's family is already suing the city for not forcibly disbanding the vigilantes.
Men charged in connection with girl’s death plead not guilty
September 08, 2021 By The Associated Press
BTW for those who don't click on my links, it has a photo of the D.A. involved and quoted a bit above.
by artappraiser on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 3:22am
Summary of Rittenhouse prosecution's closing argument by Alberto Luperon at Law & Crime (a real pro with tons of experience watching exactly this kind of trial)
‘You Cannot Claim Self-Defense Against a Danger You Create’: Prosecutor Argues Kyle Rittenhouse’s ‘Provocation’ Invalidates Self-Defense Claim
Nov 15th, 2021, 2:02 pm
A video is included there
special notes just for rmrd The prosecution maintained that Rittenhouse pointed his AR-15 rifle at Joseph Rosenbaum, the first person he shot. Rosenbaum was the registered sex offender with the skinhead haircut videotaped several hours before taunting armed volunteer vigilantes wearing bulletproof vests saying "shoot me" and calling one of them the N word. To me sounds like a classic gang member right out of West Side Story. double daring them. Of course, nobody deserves to die for being an asshole like that, especially when you're generally against the death penalty like I am. But innocence personified? Really rich coming from you, another one of your ridiculous hyperbolics.
by artappraiser on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 4:00am
"And so, with that crisp, whipcrack sound, it all began . . . I knew I’d shattered the balance of the day, the spacious calm of this beach on which I had been happy. But I fired four shots more into the inert body, on which they left no visible trace. And each successive shot was another loud, fateful rap on the door of my undoing." - Albert Camus, The Stranger
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 4:31am
though this guy has a point that the prosecution describing Rosenbaum sounds more like South Park than Camus:
by artappraiser on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 4:57am
Granted this video and argument is biased and is not the whole of what the jury is consdering, BUT STILL DOESN'T IT LOOK JUST LIKE A SCENE FROM "WEST SIDE STORY"? READY TO RUMBLE -
My point is bigger picture: it's clear too many are attracted to this case because it's a chance to root for The Sharks or The Jets rather than rule of law. WTF was anyone doing on the streets of Kenosha that dark evening? There was pandemic going on! Not a single one had any decency to stay home and obey the rules. George Floyd pro or con my ass, they were looking to stay out late and rumble, looking for trouble.
by artappraiser on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 4:46pm
and I've gotta say that, like it or not, no matter what the verdict, this is going to be a very viable right-wing argument for years to come, like REVERSE MIRROR OF THE O.J. TRIAL
Murderers ARE getting out on low bail in places like Chicago all the time, getting access to guns with which to kill and maim again. Which is it, are we for rule of law or for giving certain groups and certain situations a mullligan and/or preferential treatment? It's this > Even though he's upper class, O.J.'s got black skin, so, you know, you must acquit, yay, a win for our team, someone got murdered but the guy got off...it's like pro football, not real life...
by artappraiser on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 5:00pm
back to opinion to consider on main topic
some replies of interest:
by artappraiser on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 10:49pm
by artappraiser on Wed, 11/17/2021 - 4:45pm
The State of Georgia rests its case in trial of three men accused of killing Ahmaud Arbery
By Jason Hanna, Devon M. Sayers and Alta Spells, CNN.com, Updated 8:35 PM ET, Tue November 16, 2021
CNN's Amir Vera, Travis Caldwell, Joe Sutton, Jason Morris, Ryan Young, Pamela Kirkland and Orlando Ruiz contributed to this report.
by artappraiser on Tue, 11/16/2021 - 10:48pm
I'm much more bothered by the Arbery killing than a bunch of cosplay protesters roughing each other up. There's a shooting after pretty much every high school football game now - do i care which one is right or left?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 11/17/2021 - 5:26am
I think you have the correct attitude and interpretation of course.
The question: Why can't MSM turn the nation's eyes in the correct direction?
Well, I suspect that's because people are way more interested in a "murder mystery" than a clearcut case. And they are in the business of attracting eyeballs.
A "murder mystery" is a narrative where everyone can have an opinion, where everyone gets to be a juror. They can practice their own prejudices and preconceptions. So all the better if the narrative is one where everyone can practice their own prejudices and preconceptions.
If only we could put Jessica Simpson or Lt. Colombo on the Rittenhouse case? (They didn't show up for the O.J. trial either!) At the end each episode. they tie up the mystery thing and everyone goes along, they don't argue about his or her conclusion.
I do think Dan Abrams Law & Crime outfit, including with their TV channel, does do the most responsible job possible with murder mystery junkies. They try to teach them the law along with appealing to the "everybody's got an opinion on a murder mystery" market.
by artappraiser on Wed, 11/17/2021 - 3:44pm
!!! - That's not self-defense but vigilantism? I note he even gave him a chance to take the Fifth right there and he didn't...
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 3:24am
You know there is a chance this guy's not evil and his conscience is bothering him. Even the guy driving the 2nd pickup seemed that way at first glance. The old man may be a cretin though. Similar situation in Monster's Ball, if movies mean anything.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 4:49am
On this Reuters news tweet announcing the the jury found Rittenberg not guilty on all charges, there's a whole load of short replies and they are virtually all either night or day. Lots of people out there passionate about this trial as a metaphor, just like O.J. trial. But race really was not involved here, so what really is? That so many uninvolved people could be so passionate about this murder trial and not any of the hundreds of others taking place across the country?
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 1:37pm
p.s. here's one way race can be injected into judging the result:
The thing is: legally, this trial itself wasn't about him being a white supremacist or not. Like the article at the top says, it was about problems of defining self defense in a country filled with legal guns on the streets. Rittenhouse was not protecting his home where there are no police. He was on the street with a gun, replacing the role of police, without any kind of formal deputization.
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 1:53pm
It's a reminder on any given night 17-year-olds can be out doing something stupid.
I know this comes as a big surprise.
It does give an idea how stupid the left is when you turn to Huffpost and the 1st thing in their article is that Rittenhouse "traveled to Wisconsin", a whole 20 miles, which is like remarking someone from Jersey City or Stamford "traveled to New York" or someone from Bethesda or Arlington "travelled to DC".
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 1:53pm
I feel enormously lucky that I never had one of my own to deal with.
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 1:58pm
The joys of parenting can be exaggerated, but we're a delusionary species anyway. Much of our task on earth is to pretend shit seem like shinola, even if we have trouble remembering what shinola is.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 2:05pm
on your map point, yeah, as a former Milwaukeean going south on I-94, it's like this: when you hit Racine, you've still got a long way to go, but when you see the Kenosha signs, then it's, yay, we're almost in Chicago...
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 2:19pm
It's obvious Kenosha was closer than Chicago despite being "out of state"
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 2:33pm
omg a black former tv judge looking at the Rittenhouse results rationally as far as race is concerned, and you know what else, I think he's right!
edit to add: I did look him up, he's got a wikipedia entry
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 2:29pm
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 6:05pm
yeah, I know Kenosha, I knew from family members was just on the cusp of a revival,from being run down, dying and #ghetto town, to a vital middle class town. including via minorities buying homes and starting businesses. And I was reading more of the the local news while it was happening than I posted here, since the minute the shooting happened. All of it, every minute, was heartbreaking. And the outside agitators coming there and doing it made it even more heartbreaking. They couldn't handle it, they were too fragile, especially with covid complicating things! (The violence didn't start right away, it was clearly caused by outside agitation!)
Brooklyn Minnesota sounded like a very similar kind of town, lots of minorities and immigrants trying to revive a town with a bottom of the barrel tax base, because they can't afford to live in Minneapolis. That's why I said at the time of the police shooting there that I hope the Minneapolis activists and national activists just fucking leave them alone to sort it out for themselves! Don't bring your big city protesting, rioting, burning, looting and agitprop there, leave them alone to work for justice themselves, they were trying to fix it, show a little faith in them.
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 7:02pm
What can a poor boy do?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 1:48pm
I think you pegged it well here.
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 1:58pm
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 7:40pm
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 10:12pm
The question, very related to the "self defense" topic: How one would deal with a "little racist/terrorist" if one abolishes police, courts and prisons? Is the envisioned a world of little segregated compounds where one must apply to get in, like in, say, "Walking Dead"?
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/19/2021 - 10:22pm
by artappraiser on Sat, 11/20/2021 - 2:35pm