The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
    Richard Day's picture

    JON, WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?

    File:Gadsden flag.svg

    Harold Evans at the Beast discusses the stimulus package; explaining what it has accomplished.

    In Evans’ mind, the stimulus worked and is working. There just were not enough stimuli.

    Now this is the standard Krugman liberal approach when examining the current state of the economy.

    Then he demonstrates how the GOP uses the big lie to trash any stimulus attempts.

    The Big Lie is a disgrace to all who have uttered it, knowingly or unknowingly. It is worse. It is a tragedy, since if we are to have more refusal to face the effects of the stimulus, as now seems likely, life is going to get a lot more miserable for millions after one of the worst elections I’ve ever seen in many years of reporting.

    We were like a man a sinking in a swamp. A good neighbor rushed along and threw us a rope. It just about stopped us sinking. But it didn’t get us out. It was too short, just as the stimulus was too small. Now along comes another man, the local preacher, telling us we are sinking because of our sins (which are many) and will yank the rope away.

    The result will not be pretty.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-11-01/the-stimulus-worked-the-gops-big-lie/

    Evans obviously enjoys the rustic interpretation of things. Ha

    But old Harold gets to the nub of things.

    I am a bit angry with Jon Stewart and so is Mr. Beinhart.

    I love Jon Stewart as much as anyone else in my demographic, but the rally hit at least three wrong notes. First, ridiculing fear. Yes, of course, Fox and friends hype the threat from terrorists, illegal immigrants, Christmas haters etc. But one reason they do so successfully is that there are quite rational reasons, in America today, to be scared out of your wits. Many Americans think that the great recession is not a passing misfortune but the new normal—that they will never regain their old quality of life. And they may well be right. The specter of decline haunts much of our political debate, and while the Tea Party has built an entire narrative around the idea that America is losing its former glory, the Obama administration keeps dancing around the subject. In his closing monologue, Stewart did acknowledge that Americans have legitimate fears, but the thrust of the event was that Americans would soothe their rattled nerves if only the media and politicians stopped whipping them up. I don’t think that’s true. In the last year or so, the right has found a way of acknowledging Americans’ terror about economic decline. The left has not, and last weekend, Stewart barely tried.

    Second, the fake bipartisanship. In his montage of media silliness, Stewart made a point of counterbalancing idiotic Fox clips with idiotic MSNBC ones. And in his closing monologue, he insisted—as did candidate Barack Obama in 2008—that Americans aren’t that divided after all; only our talking heads are. There’s a long history of liberals insisting that if only pundits and politicians would stop focusing on divisive “wedge” issues like guns, abortions and gays, everyone could come to a reasonable consensus about how to renovate the American welfare state. That’s what some of Obama’s campaign rhetoric implied, and Stewart’s monologue followed in that vein. But by now we all should have learned that Americans are deeply divided over whether to have a functioning welfare state at all. It was only when Obama realized that the Congressional Republicans would not support any serious effort at covering the uninsured—once he stopped trying to be bipartisan—that he got anywhere…

    Finally, the focus on “sanity.” Talk about condescending. The Tea Party types who believe that expanding government undermines their freedom are not insane. They’re tapping into a deeply-rooted American fear of government power, one that would be immediately recognizable to Calvin Coolidge or Strom Thurmond. And in the process, they’re conjuring, once again, the myth that America was born free, and surrenders a smidgen of liberty every time Washington imposes another tax or establishes another government agency.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-11-01/jon-stewart-rally-shows-how-the-left-blew-it/?cid=topic:featured3

     

    Frankly I do not ‘love’ Jon Stewart anymore.  During this rally, Stewart did what he has done on his comedy show. He poses the argument that somehow:

    Rush Limbaugh = Keith Olbermann

    Beckerhead = Ed Shultz

    He even made the insane argument that Chris Matthews somehow equals Sean Hannity.

    Now I usually—down to once a month these days—will do a blog on rush’s latest racist fascistic rants. You just go to Mediamatters.com first and then hit a few other blog sites and the list is anywhere from 20-50 items representing his worst.

    So if Olbermann calls rush a liar, that is the same thing?

    Matthews who is far to the right of my philosophy, has taken to putting together short essays at the end of his show demonstrating that beckerhead is a threat to truth, justice and the American Way. Is Matthews really out of line when he states the obvious?

    Ed Shultz will flat out call Palin or O’Donnell or Angle liars. He simply replays a video or an advertisement or the script from a radio interview and shows these morns lying their asses off.

    Ed will scream bloody murder about how the right wing media distorts the truth in an attempt to get their agenda implemented.

    Jon Stewart is attempting to look ‘clean’, free of all bias.

    Now Stewart has shown himself to be a master demonstrating how Cheney for instance, lied continually for eight years…about everything.

    Brian Williams was reportedly angry at his staff when Stewart scooped him by presenting video proof of Cheney’s lies.

    And look at what has transpired over the past two years.

    Boehner and McConnell have publicly stated that they do not wish to compromise with Reid or Pelosi or Obama. Ever.

    And the RNC has run a campaign where its front runners continually scream that there will be no compromise once they are elected. They have promised to compromise on no issue whatsoever.

    Just looking at this one tactic of the repubs are we to say that there are two sides to the story?

    One side says it will never compromise.

    The other led by our President has attempted to compromise on every single issue coming down the pike; much to the chagrin of the left. Whole sections of the health care legislation contain demands of repubs, repubs who refused to vote for the damn thing.

    Sometimes it should be clear. There should be a line drawn in the sand.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9Qlkx-qwaM

     

    Jon, which side are you on?

    Jon, are you on the side of the worker? Are you for a fair minimum wage?

    Jon, which side are you on?

    Jon, do you believe in universal health coverage or not?

    Jon, which side are you on?

    Jon, do you believe that the richest among us need lower taxes and more tax breaks?

    Jon, which side are you on?

    Jon, do you believe that those who lost their jobs a direct and proximate result of the actions of Wall Street should be entitled to unemployment benefits as well as a government hand in finding a job?

    Jon, which side are you on?

    Jon, do you believe that our President is an American Citizen? Do you believe that the birthers are nothing but racist pricks who will not accept a Black Man in the White House?

    Jon, which side are you on?

    Jon, do you believe that Dick Armey really has something to contribute to the discussion? Do you believe that Glenn Beck really has something to add to a discussion of the issues? Do you believe that Sarah Palin has something to contribute to the discussion?

    Jon, which side are you on?

     

    Comments

    Richard, thanks for the post.  MSNBC is not Fox, anyway you slice it.

    "The specter of decline haunts much of our political debate.." and "...the Obama administration keeps dancing around the subject"  Beinhart

    Absoulutely true. We don't have clue one about the fear people on the other side have of losing their culture. 


    Yeah, I can take some time and listen to a debate between Feingold and Caucus. Fine.

    I might learn something. Midwest vs. West. Left vs. Moderate. Sure.

    Barbara Boxer might learn something from her sister Senator and Al Franken might learn something from both of them.

    But what in the hell could anyone learn from a debate between Obama and Angle? Or O'Donnell or Palin or any of the fascist right?

    That's enough!!! sorry

     


    One of the fellows I read often is Chez Pazienza at Deus Ex Malcontent. I sometimes disagree with him, but he's bright and  seems a fair representative of a different generation than myself, so I find his take valuable. And he seems to think that Stewart and Colbert hit the right notes:

    I don't mean to pick on him personally, but professional disgruntled liberal standard-bearer Peter Daou's take on the rally was typical of what was popping up across the left-leaning Twitterverse, and it was essentially that what Stewart, Colbert et al were doing was unfocused, unfunny and desperately in need of some good, old-fashioned 60s-style civil rights march muscle -- that because it wasn't overtly political or especially pointed or even "entertaining" it was a missed opportunity.

    And that, in a snapshot, is everything that's wrong with the left these days. Not only is nothing that's done with its general interests in mind ever enough, it's so utterly self-obsessed with what it thinks is best that it's more about personal satisfaction -- me, me, me; keep me happy; give me what I want -- than it is about actually moving the country in the correct direction.

    Let me be really blunt: Look, you petulant fucking children, you overly analytical jackasses looking down disapprovingly from Olympus, willing to sacrifice some progress in favor of none whatsoever, it's not always about you.

    What Stewart and Colbert did yesterday was exactly what needed to be done right now, and it wasn't about keeping you entertained or engaged; it was about the 215,000 people who turned out to provide a show of force for the beliefs that for the most part you claim to espouse. It was a victory for what Progressive America is supposed to stand for of the highest order imaginable -- and that should never be forgotten or devalued.

     

    One of the commenters:

    Like you said, the entire point of the rally was not about reclaiming America, or even about pushing a progressive agenda. Quite simply because Stewart and Colbert don't do that. They may lean left, but as Stephen once so famously said, so does the truth. What they do is poke fun at the media and at the tone of discourse in general. So really, the way they conducted the rally was exactly the right thing to do. And that's a much better and successful message than any partisan choir-preaching.

    Someone from SNL (Lorne Michaels, or maybe Tina Fey) once said that they didn't want Weekend Update to be someplace where they made political statements to elicit applause in place of laughs. If that's what Stewart-Colbert were, they'd have been out of style long before this rally ever occurred.

    Another commenter:

     

    Before I went down to the rally, I was generally thinking about its purpose, because if you're going to blow a whole day doing something, it's satisfying to know why. My conclusion was that it probably would be a meta-commentary on meta-commentary. I was OK with that, mainly because I like to think of myself as the kind of guy who can sagely say things like "meta-commentary."

    But when I got down to the Mall--with wife and kid in tow and entirely futile plans to meet up with all kinds of friends--I took in the huge crowd and realized what the event really was all about. It was pretty simple: This is what it looks like when a whole shitload of *normal* people get together on the Mall.

     

    And another:

     

    Chez, you are spot on. These lefties - or whoever had bullshit commentary about the event - clearly didn't get the point. And I also must say that this rally was absolutely beautiful. I was there in the thick of it. The sound was fantastic from where I was, the comedy was hysterical, the commentary from Jon was funny and very moving. But the most awe inspiring thing about it were the people. I have never seen such a large gathering and everyone that I came in contact with was funny, polite and enjoying themselves immensely. It was truly a reckoning of the American spirit.

     

    Obviously Chez is not any sort of authority, but I wonder if maybe the rally was aimed at a much different and younger crowd than you or I. A crowd that has heard so much bullshit from both sides that they appreciate a day off.


    I just respectfully disagree; the bullshit is on the right and from the right and purposefully used by the right to feed the bank accounts of its real constituency: Wall Street and big biz.

    There is no thought in it, there is no grand purpose in it as regards the general population.

    To compare the right with the left is pure and utter bullshit.


    Agree with your questions about Jon, but Beinhart is blowing smoke, if 'the right' was so right about fear, decline and government, why would they put up such ludicrous candidates who are either ignorant self promoting gold diggers, or barkers for big corporate money? The right 'base' doesn't know what the hell it's doing, they are brainwashed ignorant bigots, idiots who cheered GWB on as he hastened America's decline.


    ABASOLUTELY. ha

    WELL PUT!!!


    I didn't care for Stewart painting antiwar activists as Crazy.  Although I didn't listen to his rally speech, I think he may be right if he's saying that MSNBC's programs act effectively as wings of the Democratic Party, much as MoveON! does.  I think it's time we made a more conscious evaluation of the Democratic Party, and how poorly it's serving us.  After the election it's time to do it, and do it with an unstinting , critical eye.


    I do not have a problem with taking a look at the dem party and making a re-evaluation.

    But jesus h. christ, the alternative is not with the repub fascist racist pigs. That's all I'm sayin.


    Olbermann is no Limbaugh, and good on you for calling it out.

    But why does Jon Stewart have to pick a side?


    When he wishes to just link the voices of the right with the voices of the left, he is siding with the right.

    He is saying that there are faults on both sides, so fuck both sides.

    HE IS WRONG!!!! And he aids the fascist corporate pricks when he does so.

    the end

     


    That's not what I take away from Stewart at all. I've been watching his show for years and he does the best interview in town. He reads up on the political and policy guests and then he asks tough questions, respectfully. If you need him to be on a side, I think it's pretty clear from his questions that he leans left. But in my opinion, his point that the pundits on MSNBC do the same thing that Fox does is not all that far off the mark. Sure, I think that the pundits at MSNBC at more honest but the fact remains that they are presenting information with a slant that suits their audience. And what we need is less slant, from both sides. We need honest, straightforward presentation of information without commentary, which is what we sort of used to get from the evening news. People don't have to make their own minds anymore because our opinions are spoon fed to us 24/7. Like Stewart said, maybe that's not where the breakdown in Democracy started, but it makes it a whole lot more difficult to fix the problem. 


    You cannot get and you will never receive an honest comment from the right. Ever ever ever ever ever.

    That is a fact.


    Yup, I'm incredibly pissed with the Dems and with Obama and so on. But to compare them with the Republicans or the Tea Partiers? No way, no chance. Those other guys - or at least their leaders and loudmouths - are just genuinely crazy, dangerous, mad, bad and damn near evil. 

    I HATE the idea of just equating two groups, because they're on opposite sides of an argument. It's claptrap. Whites and Natives.... Whites and Slaves.... Men and Women.... sure, in each battle, I can see SOME greys. But on the whole? Pretty clear to me. 

    The GOP and the RW Talkshow guys and Fox and the TP bunch, they're off the charts. There's no debate.

    And i think anyone who even discusses them in one hand/other hand terms, as though there are equalities at work, is guilty of a deep, moral, error.


    I know that Monty Python has done a magnificent jobs discussing different political parties in Life of Brian:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso&feature=related

    I cant find the exact scene but this will do.

    I suppose we could have ended up with 700 political parties like they used to exist in Italy and India.

    250 communist parties and 150 socialist parties and 4 colonialist parties. Parties are coalitions after all.

    But I cannot get the name of one, not one, decent repub leader from anybody who cares about this society Q. Not one.

    Give us your warrants and your bonds and your stocks and your insurance scams. That is what the repubs wish for.

     

    Oh, regulation is doing us in. My god, who is dumb enough to buy this crap? Well the American People are dumb enough to buy into this crap.

    And if I ranted another 50 pages about unemployment insurance, SS, SSD, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, FHA insurance,....it would all go for naught because the corps are experts at propaganda.

    I pulled up a video where Bill Burr, the comedian, is on some radio show and talks about buying shamwow while sitting in some motel room on the road at three am and he came to realize that paper towels work much better. hahahaha

    PEOPLE WILL BUY ANYTHING.

    The earth is 6,000 years old and corporate control of our health problems will save us in the end.

    THE LEFT IS JUST BAD AT ADVERTISING.

    God I'm sorry. I am so angry right now. hahahahahaah

    QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK

    Those beautiful ducks outside just shouted me out again. ahhaahah


    Gret post DD and spot on. Stewart is as much an opportunist and any of the others and a wimpy one at that.  I much prefer Bill Maher as he is not afraid to tell it like he sees it.


    I have had problems with Maher, but damn...he is clear in his view that the right is without answers, without solutions that do not just support the corporate oligarchy.

    And fine, following tomorrow's debacle I will catch my breath and relax once again.

    I just cannot stand it when someone stands up and says that it is the fire on the right and the fire on the left that alienate Americans. It is bullshit.

    Oh my god, you had to listen to me in chat for an hour on this. hahahahah


    The whole point was that Jon isn't on anybody's side. I imagine he'd respond to comparisons between his event and Beck's something like: a rally is defined by how much the attendees enjoy it ... if the Beck people had a lot of fun, the rallies were equally successful. Stewart put on a concert that was top notch and used the opportunity to make fun of *everyone* that is feeding methamphetamine to the hyper-polarized masses - which is exactly what he does day in and day out. He's a media satirist, not a political operative. 

    But your premise here is dead wrong. There is no true difference between roles played by O'Reilly and Olbermann. They play the exact same character for their respective networks. Policy is not germane to the point at all - it's just where they get their lines. One says what you want to hear ... the other says what the people your TV tells you you should fear/hate want to hear. And surprise! Their TV tells them to fear/hate you ... and highlights all the reasons that they are totally right to do so (ironically, just like your TV does for you, in reverse). 

    We are all good people. And that was the point of Jon's rally. We ARE NOT who they say we are. None of us. Especially not the buffoons playing their parts on TV - it's not even real, Dick. It's TV. But what the people on TV do now that is so damaging is take the crappiest moments of the worst examples that they can find from the population to create a desired arch-type .... and then tell you that's it, that's who people ARE; two kinds of people, that's all everybody is, one or the other. The end.

    Do your rantiest rants *really* represent how you feel about all people of faith ... or all people who were born in the South and have pride in their heritage? Would that *really* make me a racist in your mind? Or is there more to what you think than a couple of lines isolated from something you wrote when you were really mad? We're all ugly sometimes. Isn't it nice that there are cameras waiting to capture the instances needed to create a narrative the damn Oligarchs want to sell? Zappa wasn't wrong you know, that's the tool they are using to control.

    It simply would not have been possible for Jon Stewart to have made that montage if the folks on MSNBC weren't slinging the shit. Blaming him for pointing out the warts is absurd. Why do you imagine there were no clips Bill Moyers declaring someone "Anti-American" or the "Worst person in life" or whatever? Because that's not how he comported himself. Ever. It's the cable-psychos doing this shit ... keeping you hooked. All. Of. Them. Suck.

    Trust me, I find shit just as frustrating as you do and someone who appears to be yelling about it is indeed a comfort. But on a larger level there are an awful lot of us just wishing ALL of those SOBs would shut the hell up and quit poisoning us against each other. I feel a deep debt of gratitude for Jon Stewart simply putting on an awesome concert for *US*. It was like a rally for people who see other people as people, all of us ... and to ridicule of those who tell us that there is something dangerously wrong with half of our fellow Americans. You guys who feed on this cable baloney get 100% of the air ... give us our damn moment and let us enjoy it!

    And on a related note - I'm especially glad the sane SWAMPED Huffington's attempts to latch on to the event like a rabid badger and proclaim herself the Anti-Beck (or Armey, or whatever). Her efforts were statistically insignificant, rendering her vanity buses just a nice thing to do for some folks ... what an amazingly reasonable outcome.

    Pitch perfect. The whole way around. Kudos to Stewart!

     


    Nope.

    Rush Limbaugh is a racist fascist hundred millionaire inhumane demagogue who has accomplished nothing but bring the right wing nazis into power in this country.

    You are dead dead wrong.

    Rush serves no social purpose whatsoever.

    Rush serves himself and the corporate pricks who pay him. He hurts children, he hurts the sick, he hurts the powerless, he hurts the socially conscious, he hurts those who wish to do something about racism, sexism and equal opportunity in this country.

    Rush has never accomplished one thing that ever helped the human race.

    You are comparing bb guns to weapons of mass destruction.

    BULLSHIT.


    I would like to hear the people equating the MSNBC folks with Fox News, Limbaugh, Savage, et al. to specifically  demonstrate how they are similar, other than they both appeal to their audience's outrage against the other side.  Because it seems to me that the difference between KO, RM, et al. and Limbaugh, Beck, etc. is that the Limbaughs piss people off because they lie.  Olbermann and Maddow piss people off by telling the truth.

     


    Well then I'll just temperate my remark by saying that my family enjoys Maddow a lot more than they do Keith.  Does that help?

     


    I hereby render unto you the Dayly Line of the Day for this here DAGBLOG Site, given to all of you from all of me.

    WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    I'm saying that's exactly how they are alike: they both appeal to their audience's outrage against the other side. Look, I have outrage. And I think the current crop of conservatives don't care about the people who live in the country (or the world, for that matter), have serious relationship issues with the truth, and are, in some cases, truly batshit crazy. It's a false equivalency to suggest that the folks at MSNBC play as fast and loose with the facts as Fox News does. But they stoke the fire, all the same. It doesn't serve the country's interests to accentuate our differences all the time. That's gotten us here. And what are we solving? Nothing. 

    Rank and file people on our side make all sorts of claims about conservatives. I just did it in the paragraph above and I did it all the time when Bush was in the White House. But the truth is, I worked side by side for years with normal people who voted differently from me. You might say they were brainwashed. They would say you and I were brainwashed. But when we sat down to lunch and had actual conversations, there was always common ground. It doesn't matter if Fox News started it or if they lie more than MSNBC or whatever. Both networks, and in fact almost ALL news media, if a part of the problem. They get better ratings when people are pissed off, so why should they report responsibly?  


    You nailed it. They exist to play to the outrage "their audience" feels for the "other side". That's exactly it. Period. That is precisely what Jon Stewart ridicules. And precisely what every single one of the people highlighted in the montage which has caused DD such angst was in the act of doing. Hence the sameness of them all. You can't say "except in the obvious way where what they are doing is pretty much identical ... I challenge you to show they are the same." Huh? The identical part you acknowledge. THAT'S what we're talking about.

    If someone doesn't want to get compared to Fox news, they should quit using the same methodologies as Fox news. And if they insist on playing up outrage like Fox does, don't expect the rest of us to say "Hey, good job sparky! You told the TRUTH while undermining reasonable discourse in America."

     


    "If someone doesn't want to get compared to Fox news, they should quit using the same methodologies as Fox news."

    They don't use the same methodologies.  They actually report, and use facts to make their case.  Fox News is pure propaganda, relying almost exclusively on lies and distortions to make theirs.

    For example, Maddow is the only person who routinely reports on C Street, and the bald hypocrisy behind all of these "family values" conservatives who live their private lives in ways that make Mick Jagger look like a dead Pope; the huge resources that Freedom Works and the Kochs have pumped into making the Tea Party the most successful "grass roots," "populist" movement since the civil rights and anti-war movements of the 60's; and the constant drumbeat of scary black people (ACORN, the New Black Panthers) that Fox News is beating to scare people into voting Republican.

    There is no fair comparison of the substance of the programs on MSNBC and Fox News/talk radio, only a superficial one that nutpicks the occasional over-the-top statements of the hosts of the MSNBC programs (which do account for twenty hours of programming a week, so missteps are inevitable) and ignores the pervasive bias and disregard for context, truth or fairness that characterizes the programs on the right.

    I guess I'll finish by asking you and Orlando (and anyone else who agrees with Stewart's attempt at equivalency) what type pf program you envision making the anti-Republican case, and why we don't see that type of program in the major media outlets today.       


    I don't envision programs making the anti-Republican case. That's the Democrats' job but the fact that they are failing miserably at it has a lot to do with the fact that all news networks cover the conflicts and the controversies instead of the concrete issues. I want reporters who report the facts. I want pundits who discuss policy issues. Look, I LIKE watching MSNBC. It's funny and it tells me exactly what I want to hear--I'm right and legions and people on the other side are wrong. And stupid. And hateful. 

    I want to hear that, but what good does it do me? Does it address our education woes? No. Does it bring soldiers home and care for them? No. Does it provide universal healthcare coverage? No. 

    Of course I think Fox News are a bunch of liars. MSNBC may play a little slower and tighter with the facts, but that doesn't change the basic premise that the Fourth Estate is broken. I think KGB had an incredibly insightful comment somewhere in this monster thread about GE owning MSNBC and GE having a vested interest in NAFTA. It gets right to the same point as his post about Sharron Angle and where the ad money is coming from. They are creating bread and circuses and we're arguing about what, exactly? 


    By anti-Republican case, of course, I mean telling the goddamned truth once in awhile:  Tax Cuts Do Not Reduce the Deficit; Reasonable Restrictions on Gun Ownership Do Not Violate the Second Amendment; a 39.6% versus a 35% Income Tax Rate is not Jackbooted Socialism; A Rising Tide Does not Lift All Boats; and etc., and etc.

    And I don't expect Democrats to "make their case" when the supposedly objective media won't report the facts, but just the rhetoric, when the most popular cable news outlet is a propaganda arm of the Republican Party, and that same objective media rushes to the propaganda arm's defense every time that little fact is pointed out.  MSNBC is, in fact, the only one doing that, yet they are getting blamed for breaking the Fourth Estate?  Please.  The FE was broken when Keith Olberman was covering San Diego sports in a leisure suit.   


    "I never gave anybody hell. I just told the truth and it felt like hell" - Harry Truman


    No. I'm refusing to compare ... and saying put the fucking weapons down. Period. Both of you! Go to your fucking rooms! You're grounded.


    Just admit it. you are a repub.

    Anyone who would compare the libs on MSM to the nazis running fox and the fascist radio pricks, is a repub.

    It's all gooooooooooooood. Just admit it.

    Because there are 360 different ways of looking at the issues and the repubs have one, corporate sanctity. That is it.

     


    Dick, that's a little bit harsh and a lot silly. Just because someone doesn't agree 100% with your assessment of things doesn't make him the enemy. Your comment has pretty much proven Stewart's point.


    That is not my assessment. That is the assessment of the GOP.

    All things are locked in.

    There is not one single issue that the GOP favors that benefits anyone or anything but the corporate oligarchy.

    That is not how it has always been.

    That is how it has been for 30 years.

    Any other assessment is pure propaganda.

    Name me one repub in the last twenty years who has proposed anything that would come close to helping the average American? One

    It is a goddamn lie to propose that there is one repub in the US Senate who gives one goddamn about what happens to America except for the corporate America they all caucus for.

    Name me one.

    Those two dames in Maine already showed their stripes.

    I have had it with this charade.

     


    Richard Lugar. Yeah, he's a Republican and I disagree with most of his positions. He votes with his party about 75% of the time and he's pretty good on energy and environmental issues. 

    The point isn't that most of us writing and commenting here agree with Republican policies or priorities. The point is that Republican voters can't all be painted with the same brush and neither can Democratic voters. I know you're angry. I'm angry about a lot of things as well. I can't for the life of me understand why Republicans, who basically ruined the country, are going to take power back tomorrow when I think those guys should be shamefully hiding under rocks for the next decade. 

    But Stewart's point wasn't about the politicians. In order to have a healthy Democracy, we need the press to be on its game. They're not even playing that game anymore. They've all given in to the urge to appeal to the worst side of our humanity for ratings. It sucks. I think Stewart is correct about that. Does that make me a Fascist? Come on. That's straight out of Glenn Beck's playbook and you are better than that.


    Lugar is out of power. Lugar was proclaiming is disagreement with the corporate fascist pricks before he even got out.

    There is no point concerning Lugar. And no we have no healthy democratic discussions about anything.

    The corporations have been writing the legislation for forty years. And the only time there is disagreement following the most recent corporate printed pack of garbage is by the dems.

    There is no government anymore. There is only a collection of the corporate oligarchs.

    Rush and beckerhead and hannity and hume and the rest of fox news have nothing to contribute to the debate.

    Shultz and Olbermann and Rachel and Lawrence have much to contribute.

    If you do not understand the difference, I do not understand how you can call yourself a progressive or a liberal or a Democrat.


    Dick, I think you're missing a huge point that Orlando, and I, and KGB and others here have been trying to make.  And that point is that, yes, as great as it is to have Rachel Maddow and Keith Olbermann and MSNBC around to act as a counterpoint to Fox News, what happens is that they simply become "the other voice".  Much like our two-party system in Washington.  One voice fighting the other.  When neither side listens anymore, that's where we get government breakdown....and media breakdown.

    So Stewart does an excellent job of calling the media out - BOTH sides. 

    I hate to say it but you are asking all of your readers here, and all of America (given your comments) to hate Fox but love MSNBC.  It's not that simple.  Sure, Fox is at its worst a propaganda machine for the right wing, but put your foot in the other shoe and look at MSNBC from a Repulican standpoint and it's nothing but the same thing - a propanda machine for the liberal side.

    What many, many people want is a return to STRAIGHT news.  Edward R. Murrow.  Walter Cronkite.  Straight reporters giving straight news reports.

    We don't have much of that these days, if at all. 

    That is the point that is being made here.

     

     


    Nope, there is no comparison between fox the nazi station and the other MSM outlets. none ever.

    There can never be. Because FOX is a nazi corporate fascist oligarchist organization that is run by the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler.

    Murdoch is the single worst human being on the face of this planet.

    There are no proper issues to discuss with him or his employees ever.

    There is no single issue that I would even attempt to argue with Rush Limbaugh or Michael Savage, ever.

    These are beasts who must be avoided at all costs.

     


    Now imagine, if you will, that I was just asking one of my Republican or Independent sisters to read your posts, Dick, in the hopes that your usual logic would make them think twice about their party or their stance.  Imagine, if you will, that one of them read this particular post and what you just said in your comments.  Imagine how likely they might feel to consider seeing your point of view, after reading that.

    As I said yesterday to someone else, painting with a broad brush is usually a big messy mistake.  The beautiful artwork that could have been made with much more delicate handwork, much more subtle craft, becomes naught but an outhouse door painted poorly. 

    I think I shall retire until tomorrow night's blogpost of the results, via Articleman.  Good night.

     

     


    Okay, okay...I still luv ya.  But I disagree with you on the whole Nazi thing.  Seriously, Dick, you use that term way too much and there are better words to use to describe Murdoch.  The more you use a hateful term like Nazi, over and over again, the more you're gonna forget just how hateful it is and you'll just spit it out like so much, um....spittle.  Start thinking outside the box.  Think of a new term for him and Rush and Beck, et. al. 

    Or maybe we should just go back to saying "Sharks".  Or spouting recipes everytime we see a rightwing nutjob acting stupid online. 

    I have a GREAT quiche recipe....


    Well, I'm actually an independent. Don't really have a dog in this "which is more like Hitler" race except maybe hoping someday one of the infernal political parties we are cursed with stops sucking so badly. But nope. Thus far it is an endless process of good enough being redefined as better than the worst behavior of the other side in an endless race to a bottom which we never seem to reach.

    But I certainly have no loyalty to the Democratic party or liberal ideology or whatever beyond policy it may contribute to the contemporary debate. So if you want me to admit disloyalty. Well .... uh .... you got me. Case closed. I really only care about America and would do away with both parties in a heartbeat if I had the power.

    I love my wingnutty teabagger friends as much as I love wingnutty you. Which is to say, a lot. I'm not choosing. Both sides are ridiculously hilarious in my book - and my life would be far less rich as a result of losing either influence. In many respects you have more in common than you might expect, particularly in how you view the "Oligarchy" (the common threat to all non-bazilionaire Americans, BTW). For another example, you all jump to using "Nazi" at the drop of a whisker.

     


    That says nothing, absolutely nothing.

    Oh, $3.00/hr minimum wage is okay.

    Oh, 50 million people with no access to health insurance is okay.

    Oh, 20% tax rate for those making billions is just fine.

    Oh, 12 million immigrants rounded up and disposed of, is just fine with you.

    Oh, the destruction of the middle class, is all good.

    Oh, religious institutions contributing to political causes is just fine with you.

    Oh, silly 'theories' about a 6,000 year old universe taught to seven year olds is just fine with you.

    Oh, direct elections of senators may not be all right with you.

    Oh, corporations allowed to achieve personhood within the ambit of Constitutional Rights is all right with you.

    Oh, allowing 'private' corporations to discriminate against people based upon race or sex is all right with you.

    Oh, destroying our Social Security system is all right with you.

    Oh, allowing corporations to run our prison system is all right with you.

    Oh, eliminating the IRS is all right with you and employing a consumption tax that is burdomesome upon the poor and only supplementing the already incredible bonuses to the rich is all right with you.

    Oh, teaching children about a mythical god to our children is all right with you.

    Oh, teaching a pretend history of our country is all right with you.

    Well it is not all right with me.


    Who is this person you are talking about? This person doesn't exist in real life.

    You just made a list of everything that makes you mad that you've heard from a dozen-odd politicians and prognosticators this election season ... all fed to you by this MSM monstrosity you are defending ... mixed it with some crap policy and court decisions added a few apparent throwbacks from the 70s on top ... and randomly tacked the whole mess to a great big strawman.

    I don't think you even know what the topic is anymore. I was talking about Jon Stewart's rally and the fact that MSNBC has you guys as jacked up wacky on OMGZ as any teabagger. And you respond with ... this?

    You've even got us taking immigrants for "disposal." Good lord! It's Mexico, not Auschwitz. I'm not in favor of the policy ... hell, I don't even think the policy is plausible, but you are are being absurd in your characterization. The fence is stupid too, for the record. If we don't address what happened in NAFTA that is causing economic distress in their home nations, it's just going to keep getting worse no matter what we do. Most of the tea party guys aren't too fond of NAFTA either turns out. You know who is? General Electric. The DLC.  And the GOP. You know who's keeping you from even knowing about the people who would join from the other side to demand both parties fix the parts of NAFTA that are destroying opportunity abroad and jobs at home? A cable news channel owned by .... General Electric. A hyper-sensationalized feedback loop based on agreeable policy and confirmation bias is by no means synonymous with being a part of the solution.

    When was the last time you went a full day without watching cable news? I'm not kidding, man. Kind of worried about you. Unplug. You need a head-check. You aren't wrong on policy, but you are seemingly wrong on everything else.


    Richard-I have no regrets in saying it is laughable that anyone would doubt the truth and sincerity of your statements.

    (See, I can talk just like Mitch McConnell-I laugh at them! Loudly. Try it. It's the way the GOP does it.)


    Excellent comment, kgb.  I have to say that my Republican mother thinks Keith O is just as bad as Beck, and looking at it from her perspective, I can see her point. 

    My two eldest nieces went to the rally this weekend and had a great time.  They were in hysterics over all the great signs everyone held up.  In case you missed them all, here's a very comprehensive list:

    http://rallythecause.com/2010/10/31/rally-to-restore-sanity-fear-colbert...

     


    The poison was in the water before we discovered the great lakes. Read some history.  Like this.


    Trenchant. And your point?


    I'm fine with Jon not taking sides.  But I agree completely w/Dick that Stewart is doing a huge disservice to the political dialogue by equating MSNBC and Fox News.  The Republicans have been injecting poison into the body politic for my entire life, whether it's Nixon with his Red-Baiting and Southern Strategy, Ronald Reagan with his welfare queens in Cadillacs, or George W. Bush with his "You're with us or You're with the Terrorists," large swathes of the American public have been persuaded to vote in favor of an unsustainable and destructive policy program by appealing to their fears and their prejudices.

    Meanwhile, the media has decided to abandon any obligation to bring attention to the actual program underlying Republican appeals to a jingoistic patriotism and racist dog whistles.  In (finally!) steps MSNBC to call Fox News and the Republicans on their bullshit.  While Olbermann's and Maddow's programs are far from perfect, they are a needed and necessary corrective to the propaganda outlet that is Fox News.

    Calling a lie a lie is not the same as spreading those lies in the first place, and i think Stewart is wrong to argue that it is.  And an occasional intemperate remark is not that same as the systematic dissemination of half-truths and spin designed to garner support for an agenda that is hostile to the interests of the average Americans that these demagogues claim they support.    


    I am wondering, and this is kinda off the main topic, but...

    This rally was held on the day before Halloween.  People dressed up in costumes.  People held funny signs.  Trick or Treat.

    I did not perceive this rally as political statement.  It was a Halloween party at the mall. Did anyone else have this thought?  Or is it just me?


    Repubs love halloween. They dress up all year in working man's clothes and pretend they give one goddamn about the working man or woman in this country.

    Then they work overtime to give the corps exactly what they desire...legislation that is primarily printed by their own printers.

    the end


    Yeah and that is another thing. Check out the HITS OF THE DAY.

    I am not there.

    This is my last blog on this site.

    Do you like apples?

    How do you like them apples?


    If all you truly, deeply care about is getting "hits" and "reads" and "recs", instead of the messages that you send and the lessons that you have to share with us, then.....perhaps you need to go rest in an apple orchard for a while, there, Dickon.  Come back here when you're feeling refreshed and new again. 

    Happy trails to you, if that is the case. 


    First of all, your post is number 2 on the Hits of the Day list. Second, I recognize that usually your posts are met with admiration and agreement from readers and commenters alike. But if you expect only validation and agreement, you're sort of making Stewart's point for him.


    Quite right Dick. I don't know what's worse, Fox, or the people making false equivalences between Fox and MSNBC. You have one side screaming as it tries to kill a democracy, and the other side screaming "stop!" ... But hey, it's ALL THE SAME THING; RIGHT?!?!  

    Jesus H. Asscrack, people! Get your heads out of your asses.


    Well, I dislike both Fox News and MSNBC, and I don't watch Jon Stewart--probably have seen part of the latter's show once or twice.

    While I agree with you that Fox News overall is much more terribly propagandist and extreme, lthey also actually cover actual news sometimes like CNN, especially on foreign news with their feed from ITN. MSNBC rarely does any news anymore, unless there's a shark attack, an airline problem, or an explosion or hostage situation somewhere, t's 24/7 commentary.

    If you do not think MSNBC has for the last 5 years or so been trying to replicate Murdoch media theory for tle left side, I think you are just blind. That is precisely and clearly what they were trrying to from the day they hired Olberman, a sportscaster, and they have continually ramped up their attempts to compete with his news channel for the same "get them outraged or infotained and keep them outraged or infotained with passion plays" political commentary. While MSNBC may be a little bit more like Fox broadcast channel than it is like Fox News, with the adolescent jokes, zany news roundups, and things like "worst person in the world" segments with organ music, it is most certainly a lot more Murdoch than it is Ted Turner. The only thing that surprises me is that they have not cancelled Tweety's show, it's much too "politics for grownups" for the demographic they are trying to reach, he does not try to play Glen Beck's better twin (Rachel Maddow was clearly hired to do the latter.)

    CNN is the least objectionable as they bounce back and forth from trying to do Murdoch to trying to see if they can get an audience for actual news. It is clear to me that Gloria Vanderbilt's son does not want to be made to do the Murdoch thing, but to actual news, yet I still see times when he is forced to play to that demographic. Aaron Brown surely refused to go with that program, that's why he was fired--I still miss him.

    I see the damage to the politics of this country in all the channels chasing Murdoch style gelt with political debate drama queens, and not in what particular political agenda they are pushing. Infotainment along the lines of mud wrestling is fine in moderation but served as "news," I think it is very damaging to the nation. I have the same issues with whet Talking Points Memo has become--sex scandals and teh crazy infotainment rather than informing on issues--the founder actually saying that he is not in the business of forcing people to eat their issues spinach and that he believes in giving them the garbage political wrestling coverage they crave.

    … Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses.

    ---Juvenal


    Agreed. I have a hard time watching MSNBC or any cable news show. I watched Maddow in Nevada a few days ago, and that was OK because she knows how to interview, but when she's alone she starts to sound like Olbermann. Every now and then someone posts a good snippet from Shep Smith or Dylan Ratigan, but I suspect it is mostly noise.


    I think you vastly overstate the influence of MSNBC in this comment, and vastly understate the influence of the the Fox/Limbaugh Axis of Evil.  You and I would both presumably love a country where "Frontline" is the most popular program on television.  But, before you can bring people to your side, you have to get them to listen to your argument.  

    The mainstream media long ago decided to allow Fox News and talk radio to pollute the airwaves with their propaganda without challenge.  You can argue that MSNBC doesn't challenge the rightwing worldview in the genteel, thoughtful way you would like them to.  But are you really arguing that the alternative of giving Fox full run of the media landscape is preferable?

    The rightwing has made as it's declared object to complete destruction of liberalism, and has been devoted full-bore to doing so for thirty years, with great success.  And yet many commenters here want us to put flowers in their gun barrels and reason with them over tea.  Well, that tactic hasn't worked yet, so I'm happy to let Keith, Rachel and Ed express a little righteous outrage on my behalf.    


    And I'm happy to let Jon and Stephen express a little outrage on behalf of those of us that miss informative programming.


    Maybe Jon and Stephen could use their influence to actually provide some informative programming.

    [In the interest of disclosure, my wife and I are huge TDS fans.  We Tivo and watch literally every program.  I just think wrong in claiming an equivalence here.  In fact, his own show argues against such an equivalence, as it's knocks on Fox outnumber it's digs at MSNBC by a factor of thirty.  At least.]


    Hey, Obey; not looking for much nuanced discussion here, huh?  I'm left wondering if some of you are buying DD's framing of Stewart claiming equivalency, or if you know that Stewart was claiming it, and not just mocking the name-calling hyperbole? 

    I think he's wroong about antiwar activists beng part of the Crazy Left, AND being so tickled pink by Oprah's endorsement of his event.  That said, I welcome any change that cause Olberman to quit his crap 'worst person in the world' segment with bad organ music; and if he could get Maddow to use her lower-register voice more often, even I might listen once in a while.  Happy Voting Day, Pug!


    I personally can't stand Keith and Rachel. But that has nothing to do with it. If people can't see beyond the theatrics, and understand that there is a pretty fundamental difference between Rachel, her role, her values, and her interest in the common good and, say, Glenn Beck and his interest in ... general insanity, people are idiots.If by 'nuanced discussion', you mean raising the issue of Keith's music, fine, you're gonna have to have your nuanced discussion with someone else.

    As for Jon Stewart, yeah, funny guy, but he regularly needs to have his Sister Soulja moments, tut-tutting studies of the harm military contractors do, expressing his love and affection for Wall Street, etc. He needs it to polish his 'reasonable centrist' credentials. And I really have no respect for that attitude.

    Fuck nuance. It's election day, and we're not getting fucked because of a lack of 'nuance'.


    Wow. Okay then.


    Guess I needed a smiley emoticon about 'the theatrics', but who the fuck pissed on your brioche?

    And you and DD and Quinn can call us 'Immoral' for having the discussion?  I asked if you know what Stewart meant, or he indeed conflated the two networks, and you don't answer that.  I don't know what Stewart meant, and I had some similar (ahem) discussions with Genghis over the event, and read all over the web about 'the meaning'.

    But for you all to sream morality lessons at some of us for wanting to have a discussion is Crap.  What 'tut-tutting about the harm military contractors do'?  If that's so, I could have yhou make those points; I haven't watched him for ages.  But I do occassionally atch MSNBC, but ususally Ratigan, sometimess Olbermann.  And wonder at the plethora of issues they avoid.

    Looks like I'll only have any discussion with others who don't just hold self-righteous opinions, and shit on others who want further thinking.


     Smile   Way to go. Plus I learned a new trick.

    I think the truth is that watching cable media for affirmation of one's beliefs is "looking for love in all the wrong places" and it's a pretty unfulfilling experience. Since the information is lousy as well, that doesn't leave much reason to watch. But why not discuss how it could be better. I do admire your perserverence.


    This is one idiotic argument, IMO, and serves as an indicator that it's hard to talk to each other without talking past each other.  I see so much predetermined conviction, loaded with emotion, and we're eyeing each other across some abyss that's largely been constructed by a freaking comedian, who may have some valid points about not demonizing each other, and works too hard to scold the dramatic antics of a couple Librul teevee icons.

    Part of it seems to me to be acting out in defense of the original poster; other parts may be substituting for the past burning discussions about Tea Partiers, all Republicans, whatever, being 'evil' and 'racist assholes'.  Taking the positions that these are sometimes otherwise not bad people, or even faily good people, save for their ignorant biases, is dangerous on the boards.  I do understand that, though I don't agree.  Even with people with whom I agree politically, I often find there are certain areas of personal failings I have to look beyond to have even casual friends.  There is always some bar that beyond which, we can't share any exchanges of intimacy; discovering that ceiling is hard, but a fact of life.

    If this is some 'Sister Souljah moment' for Stewart, I'd remind us all, again, that he'e not running for election, except maybe for a spot on Oprah's new Harpo or whatever station.  (Screw Oprah, too, by the way.) ;o)

    This diary is so loaded for bear that it looks as though virtual friendships are tanking over it.  How messed up is that? 

    I get that DD watches cable crap all day long, thinking he's providing witness to Marching Evil every day; and now the Abyss he's been staring into is looking back, and he's really upset.  I get that, too.  I blog about war and torture and the horrid things we do to other humans, and it costs sometimes, and I have to clean out some way.  I haven't even been able to bear watching the network Talking Heads on Sunday for the past year, they're so goddam irrelevant and useless and full of false framing of non-issues.

    But this argument?  Oy!  So many of these remarks have to be standing in for other beliefs and convictions, or it wouldn't be so highly charged.  I'm supposed to making GOTV calls, and here I am wasting my time and others', clacking away over this virtual inanity.  I keep hearing this through all of it.  But, oh: what was the trick you learned?  Cool



    They aren't aren't screaming "Stop!" so much as they are screaming "Hordes of teabaggers are coming for your social security and to teach your children that the world is 6000 years old! Be SCARED!"

    You are trying to imply that the policy promoted somehow changes the methodology used by the network. Those leveling criticism are criticizing the methodology. I guess it's easier to ignore that and focus on the fact that they are "on your side" ... so they MUST be better than Fox.

    Keith O, at least, after his typical preening on the twitters, decided maybe 250,000 people showing up at the mall to tell him to STFU might have a point ... and axed his absurd feature "Worst person in the world". Methinks at least someone is worried about the increasing credibility gap among those who don't define journalism as infotainment targeted to riling up a partisan choir.

     


    Sorry, but on my list of things hurting America, Keith and Rachel are down there somewhere between Lady Gaga's lace goggles and the Farrelly brothers. Imo, CNN's non-partisan faux-objectivity is more damaging to political discourse. And Roger Ailes and the gang are pretty much up there at the top. Jon Stewart, when he does his 'look, clowns on the right and clowns on the left!' routine, well, I'm glad he's making some money out of it.

    If y'all wanna get into self-flagellation over some stupid people on the left, have fun.


    I agree with your comment about CNN. Sometimes I can't avoid it, say, in a doctor's office, and my opinion is reconfirmed every time.


    "Hordes of teabaggers are coming for your social security and to teach your children that the world is 6000 years old! Be SCARED!"

    This is, of course, more true than not.  And i don't know that they are saying "be scared," but simply "know thy enemy."  As I have said repeatedly on this thread, the mainstream media abdicated it's role as an arbiter of the truth behind the political rhetoric decades ago, and allowed a concerted propaganda campaign to dominate the discussion.  


    Dickster:  We so often agree, I hate to disagree.  But I do.  It took courage for that rally to be put together and his call for civility rings loud and clear to me. He did not say that we ought not disagree with one another but that "we can have animus, and not be enemies."

    He did not say that FOX and MSNBC were one and the same   He said the excesses of one do not excuse those of the other.  I am glad Keith got rid of the "worst persons" segment.  It was beneath him and what he is doing.

    Mostly, Jon Stewart brought a lot of people together to tell those who scream so loudly (and they are well congregated on the other side, with just a few on ours) to shut the bleep up.

     

     

     

     


    Let's just leave the average Joe out of this for a moment, yours and my Mums and all that.

    For me, there's tonnes wrong with the Democrats, MSNBC, all of them. I think most of today's Democratic leaders are deeply flawed, in terms of their morality, and their character. And no, I don't much like MSNBC's style. Don't really watch it much - at all - to tell the truth.

    But.

    The Republican leadership, and Fox, are not in the same class. These are people who directly encourage the infliction of pain on others, who will hurt the weak, kill the foreign, take for the strong. And they will straight-up lie and buy and bribe and kill to get there.

    And they are daily, 24/7, forcibly advocating that all the institutions and channels of power push in that direction, and that any barriers or holdouts be crushed.

    They are not, cannot, must not be considered... equal. Or "two sides" of a coin. To do this, to say this, to pose as being the nuanced or balanced intellectual who presents this sort of case is... to make things worse. It gives aid and comfort to those actively pushing evil.

    Push comes to shove, choices can be made. The Dems are still - for all their failings - better. Maybe we need something new, ok great. But this is not a coin flip. Not 50/50. Not equal.

    And to imagine that somehow in the past there was a magic "neutral" or "facts-based' news channel or station or show or reporter... is to be a child. Seriously. Didn't happen, wasn't ever the case.


    You really assert that there has never been a responsible "facts-based" news show or reporter? Come on Quinn, that's total bullshit. I've given one: Bill Moyers. He treated every subject I ever saw him address with sober and respectful coverage, probing those who were agreeable and those who were not with the same unassailable professionality - time and time again. If there was ever a moment of weakness in his career, it was a MOMENT ... not something he made into a daily feature.

    Just because we don't have it now, and just because you can find lesser examples of what people are criticizing from history, does not mean that a higher level of performance did not used to be the standard industry wide. This is the same bullshit attitude that has led to two parties BOTH doing the unvarnished will of corporate interests: taking that which should be judged as an absolute on it's own merit and applying a relative yardstick - with something everyone agrees is absurdly inadequate as the yardstick used to declare "Yep! Definitely good enough!" if the topic in question measures even a scintillia higher. And if it the topic in question can't even pass that absurdly low bar, the response is "Well look at all this other crazy shit our yardstick has on it! Did you ever think of that?!?!?"

    Race to the bottom, my friend.

     


    Dear God in Heaven, I believe Election Day has made you go weak in the brainpan, kgb. ;-) You've gone all soft on... Bill Moyers! Well, as Mags once said, "This is no time to get the wobblies, son!"

    Look, I loves me some Moyers. He did lots that was great and good and fine. But. Just to take the most obvious "fact," he was LBJ's PRESS SECRETARY! i.e. Not so neutral. And in that role, he dug dirt - including sexual - on a lot of people. He also had very very pronounced political views, ones that I often happened to agree with, but there was never much doubt about where he stood. Go check the Wiki if you think he's somehow neutral. 

    In a 2003 interview Moyers said, "The corporate right and the political right declared class warfare on working people a quarter of a century ago and they've won."... "And as the corporate and governing elites are helping themselves to the spoils of victory," access to political power has become "who gets what and who pays for it." etc. X 1000.

    IMO, the very choice of a story or an issue to investigate highlights what one considers important or not. CHOICE OF STORY = SLANT. From your very first question, you sketch out what you consider important. And in my worldview, this is even the case in SCIENCE, much less for journalism, so the idea that there are independently-existing, objectively-verifiable, ease-to-rank "facts" just doesn't much float my boat.

    And I don't care, because I don't NEED that position. All I need is that those doing journalism ROAM a bit. That they try on some different perspectives. That they hunt what they give a damn about, and sometimes just go hunting and gathering with their mind half-open, and now and then give the mike over to others they disagree with. 

    It's not about these farcical liberal tenets like "professional" or "respect" or being "neutral" or "sticking to the facts." Like I said, I think these are magical beliefs that professional/educated/"liberal" people tell their children, and too many of us believe them as grown-ups.

    Give me some diversity, some randomness, some open access, knock down and blow up the voices getting to loud and the channels concentrating power, let loose a half-dozen people who care about things with a passion, and that media will do me just fine, thanks. No need for "neutrality" at all.

    As for your yardstick riff, I believe you've mistaken me for someone else. I suspect I've shat on the Dems and Obama sufficiently for most folks, and in my working life, have in fact dedicated it to a party rather to the Left of the Dear Dems. But. If you can't see any difference, or even any significant difference between them and the GOP, then... imho... you've fallen off the world. 

    This DOESN'T mean I believe people should line up again, after the election, in the Dems corner. I can no longer 100% stand on a change-by-primaries-and-pressure-from-within strategy. But I just WILL take an Obama over a Palin, Feingold over Boehner. 


    Soft in the brainpan, perhaps. But at least I can keep on topic. We aren't talking about the same thing at all. The question isn't if journalists are highlighting what they think important. Of course they are. That's what motivates them to be journalists - to expose the truth as they see it.

    I'm talking about the tools employed to advance the premises underlying journalism. More to the point, the clear negative impacts the content produced today is having on consumers of that product which have nothing to do with the accuracy of the information they are given. This in turn is having a profoundly negative impact on the rest of society who must deal with a political discourse that includes folks hopped-up to believe that all Republicans want to put illegal immigrants in a gas chamber. The ubiquitous product being incubated in the cable news organizations is NOT the only form in which journalism has manifested itself - your assertions that this is exactly what we've always had and we've never had anything different are demonstratively false. The assertion is false despite ready examples of similar dynamics having manifested within a larger ecosystem of competing methodologies in times past.

    But you couldn't even be bothered to find a real example of such a manifestation. The way you are using the quote you highlight is completely dishonest. Moyers never said that on the air as a part of one of his reports. He never included that in his journalism at all. He said that in the role of an interviewee when asked what he believes as a person. I'm not saying he didn't have beliefs. I'm saying he didn't let his obviously strong beliefs fuck up the professional manner in which he approached the role of journalist. The strength of his beliefs just make his professional demeanor that much more impressive.

    I'm not saying journalists are supposed to be neutral. I'm saying that journalists are supposed to be responsible in their use of propaganda.

    You are the one projecting a us-vs-them thing over top of this. That's not the point. It never was. Someone else doing the same thing to a greater extent doesn't change the bad behavior of the lesser light. How do you people deal with kids? This is like trying to address bad behavior with a child who seems to believe if they can just make their sibling look bad enough, their own responsibility becomes a moot point.

     


    Let's take this from the bottom up. I have no problem with kids. Never have. I'm great with them. And have none of my own. Laughing

    But errrrrm, no. No, it isn't like I'm allowing a kid who has behaved poorly to get off scot free, because the other guy did worse. I'm saying, the kid who set the cat on fire is fucking psycho. And the kid who stood by and never stopped it is bad as well. But they're not, actually, the same. And I'm saying both did poorly, but... one is fucking psycho. The other is just gutless. But in no way have I said the other kid gets off. I give him a beating too. (Builds character.)

    As for journalism, yes I'm on topic, and no, you're wrong. Listen. You don't get to separate out WHY THEY CHOOSE THE NEWS STORIES THEMSELVES as though this had nothing to do with their facts or interpretations or values.... but then somehow the magic of journalism kicks in, and they start applying their "tools" and it's all about "professionalism." That's just silly, and I cut my Moyers story short because I could critique every single story he ever did, or any other journalist, and that would amount to me just being a giant bore.

    And I think it's silly to imagine somehow there was this way of being neutral in the past, or independent or something, and more often people hit the mark, but that people don't do so today. THERE IS NO NEUTRAL. It's just that the ones from the Right today come from a very narrow perspective, their style is powerfully black and white, specific small groups stand to gain from it, etc. I don't MIND some of those stories. And nope, I have no grand high ground to stand on for wanting more stories, more perspectives, more colours, wider sets of beneficiaries.

    I doubt that there's much, in the way of substantive outcomes or policy differences, between us. I just can't talk anymore about neutral and facts and all that, it's a way of speaking that doesn't make sense to me. 

    And as for "demonstratively," well... that's one hell of a big word. Smile


    Quinn you clearly didn't read my comment. I don't see how you can claim to be on the same topic as I after my specific clarification that neutrality is not at all what I expect from journalists leads you to go on a tirade about how neutrality is an unrealistic expectation. As best I can tell, you are saying that my expectations in this regard are quite reasonable.

    Every thing you say is indeed true. But a total red herring. And while I'm glad you cut a specious line of argument short, it would have been nice if you at least used an example of Moyers actual journalism to trash him as unprofessional. I never once argued that Moyers was neutral, nor have I once on this thread asked for neutrality in journalism. The act of proving my chosen example is not neutral would be purely masturbatory on your part. I never once asserted he is. Again. Not what I'm talking about.

    Nothing you say has addressed the criticism leveled so perfectly by Jon Stewart at his rally in regards to the current media environment. You just keep changing the subject to something you'd prefer to argue.

    If MSNBC was sitting by and doing nothing while FOX metaphorically set cats ablaze; not only would your analogy become applicable, but interestingly they also wouldn't be the subject of the specific criticism they have found directed their way in this case (of course, then we'd have to ask about their journalistic integrity for different reasons). What we have in the situation being discussed is more like: some psycho burns a cat to get a bunch of attention and suffers no apparent ill effects - then some other psycho sets a car on fire but made sure no life was lost and asserts it was to call attention to the fact that the cat-burner went Scott-free ... then both of them start yelling at the top of their lungs "IF EVERYONE DOESN'T RUN INTO THE STREETS AND START SETTING [car/cats] ON FIRE ... THE OTHER SIDE WILL WIN AND WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!!!!!" I don't give a fuck who's worse. Just stop burning shit.

    I know you are a bright guy. I must assume you are willfully missing the point. As for big words ... that's nothing compared to the floccinaucinihilipilification of the derivatives market!


    Well, you got me. I honestly don't know what to say to an example in which you compare American Politics and Media maneuvering to a situation where NO LIFE IS LOST, AND THERE ARE NO ILL EFFECTS?

    Seriously? 

    See, in my books, there've been these wars... and these enormously harmful things like unemployment and loss of one's house and health conditions which are uninsured and torture and etc.

    If you wish to argue that the media have not had any influence on US opinion or policy on these issues, you can - but I won't bother even engaging.

    If you wish to argue that the two parties have had absolutely no significant difference between them on these files, again, likewise, I really don't know what to say. Other than maybe, Al Gore versus Dick Cheney, tonight debating Climate Change. 

    *

    As to the neutrality issue, ummmmmm, you're babbling. Go back and note your first comment to me, which was directly in response to... a "neutrality" comment of MINE. But now you want to argue that I'm only bringing it in as a red herring? Hey dude, sorry, but this is where you came IN.

    And to imagine that somehow in the past there was a magic "neutral" or "facts-based' news channel or station or show or reporter... is to be a child. Seriously. Didn't happen, wasn't ever the case.

    You really assert that there has never been a responsible "facts-based" news show or reporter? Come on Quinn, that's total bullshit. I've given one: Bill Moyers. He treated every subject I ever saw him address with sober and respectful coverage, probing those who were agreeable and those who were not with the same unassailable professionality - time and time again.

    As much as I love both Stewart and Colbert, and mostly enjoyed the rally, on one point, I have to admit, they totally caved. The week before the event, the Republican slime machine began to crank up its intimidation, questioning their integrity and whether or not the rally was 'political.' Instead of taking that critique as a badge of honor, Stewart and Colbert tried to placate them and de-fuse the criticism by bending over backwards to 'show' the crazy is being done by both sides, when everyone knows, the crazy is and has been for a long time, the sole property of the right and the far right.  They went way out of their way to tamp down the criticism by 'proving' they were non-partisan, and by doing so, lost the significance of their larger point; that the nonsense has to stop in order for us to actuallly deal with each other and fix the real problems that are destroying America.  It was like the teacher that decides to punish the entire class for the actions of the three disruptive students in the back of the classroom.  How do you reinforce the notion that disrupting the class is bad when you also punish the well-mannered, straight A student in the front row?

    When it comes to their comedy, Stewart and Colbert are non-partisan, but to assert that the crazy fear-mongering and pandering to the worst instincts in society is coming from both sides is nonsense, a capitulation to the far right's intimidation squad. Sad that such normally courageous satirists could be so thoroughly intimidated when it comes to their real-life core values as human beings.


    That's the best description I've heard on this rally and its devolution; thanks Mr. Smith.  It's clearer now: their intentions were good, and they cowered in the face of pre-criticism.


    "...to assert that the crazy fear-mongering and pandering to the worst instincts in society is coming from both sides is nonsense..."

    Yet isn't this basically what some bloggers have been doing since about this time last year, by lifting the label "teabagger" and referring to vocal progressives as "firebaggers?"


    We're not talking about bloggers.  But thanks for picking at that scab on a night when progressives, vocal and non alike, are in a degree of solidarity.  You must be great fun at parties.


    There's been a tendency for some to seek a dominant political position by comparing progressive activists on the left with right-wing reactionaries. It's a noteworthy behavior, in my opinion, whether it's exhibited by pop-media satirists, anonymous bloggers, or White House spokespeople. The common impulse is one that seeks to be the center of the party by labeling outsiders. 

    Haven't been much of a party-goer lately; but I'm practicing my balloon tricks. Maybe, if I ever get back into the swing of things, I'll have an entertaining skill that'll make up for my points of view.