The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age
    Dan Kervick's picture

    Capitalism

    ... It doesn't work.   It is a morally ugly and economically inefficient system that is incapable of guaranteeing fairness and a decent, dignified life for the majority of people living under it.  It undermines human dignity and depraves the human spirit.    It is also incapable of generating rational solutions to significant social challenges of any scope.

    It needs to be changed.  Suggestions?

    Comments

    We should build a magnificent computer system capable of managing the economy with perfect fairness and maximum efficiency. Hopefully it won't enslave us, exterminate us, or turn us into fuel cells.


    I do not deem your suggestion feasible.  You get down-twinkles.


    You might be surprised... devil


    Personally, I think the Borg were on the right track. 


    Allende tried it.  Unfortunately, all the project data was lost in the coup AFAIK.  Still, it's worth considering a lot of the contemporary research on information asymmetry in this context rather than the sci-fi context.


    Wow, interesting bit of history that I was completely unaware of. It's a bit ironic that now that we could do that same job much better, we're so aware of the limitations that we don't even try it.


    Yes. Interesting bit of history there.  But don't be too sure that people aren't trying to do it even now.


    I'm curious as to which limitations you refer.  If, for example, you're referring to limitations of central planning as implied by neoclassical economic theory, then I would be quick to point out that we are apparently still trying to run things based on models that require human beings have 100% information awareness, among other superhuman abilities usually attributed to Homo economicus​.  It's not so crazy to think that market efficiency can actually be improved by leveraging centralized calculations, especially if that has the effect of increasing actual information flow.


    I'm referring to a phenomenon I frequently see in computer science circles where outsiders are concerned that computers won't get something right, and are not consoled by the fact that the computers will almost definitely do better than the humans they would replace. For example, in the near future, expect to see computers driving vehicles of various kinds. Ultimately, there will be a crash caused by a logical error in the code behind this new wonder. I expect that when that happens, there will be much hand-wringing, and most of those wringing their hands will fail to appreciate the overall reduced accident rate (obviously, I'm making an assumption the accident rate will be reduced).

    Similarly, while I have no doubt that computers will be able to plan economies better than human planners, they will make mistakes, and I expect that critics will dwell on those mistakes.


    Ah, yes.  I expect that you're right about that.


    And then, of course, there's the maxim:

    To err is human; to really foul things up requires a computer.

    We can see some evidence of that in recent market fluctuations traced back to computerized trading.


    1. from the link above to Complexity Economics - a key question is what calculations are used, based on what model of the way the world (inc. economics) works.

     

    1. Brian Arthur, Steven N. Durlauf, and David A. Lane describe several features of complex systems that deserve greater attention in economics
    2.  

    Dispersed interaction—The economy has interaction between many dispersed, heterogeneous, agents. The action of any given agent depends upon the anticipated actions of other agents and on the aggregate state of the economy.

     

    No global controller—Controls are provided by mechanisms of competition and coordination between agents. Economic actions are mediated by legal institutions, assigned roles, and shifting associations. No global entity controls interactions. Traditionally, a fictitious auctioneer has appeared in some mathematical analyses of general equilibrium models, although nobody claimed any descriptive accuracy for such models. Traditionally, many mainstream models have imposed constraints, such as requiring that budgets be balanced, and such constraints are avoided in complexity economics.

     

    Cross-cutting hierarchical organization—The economy has many levels of organization and interaction. Units at any given level behaviors, actions, strategies, products typically serve as "building blocks" for constructing units at the next higher level. The overall organization is more than hierarchical, with many sorts of tangling interactions (associations, channels of communication) across levels.

     

    Ongoing adaptation—Behaviors, actions, strategies, and products are revised frequently as the individual agents accumulate experience.

     

    Novelty niches—Such niches are associated with new markets, new technologies, new behaviors, and new institutions. The very act of filling a niche may provide new niches. The result is ongoing novelty.

     

    Out-of-equilibrium dynamics—Because new niches, new potentials, new possibilities, are continually created, the economy functions without attaining any optimum or global equilibrium. Improvements occur regularly.


    Thanks for that bit of history.  It explains a lot.


    Interesting. I like the detail about the seven swivel chairs. Without knowing much about the project, I would imagine that private sector operations software has probably become more sophisticated than this system.

    But let's play it out. Suppose you developed a perfect logistical system capable of managing a centralized economy with maximum efficiency. You would avoid catastrophic mistakes like the Great Leap Forward and could probably limit corruption, but I don't think that you would avoid the failure of innovation and industriousness associated with centralized economies. Unless your system had true artificial intelligence.


    I don't know if cynernetics is necessarily even applicable to Stalinist central planning, but I do think it can be and is applied to other kinds of economic problems.  California's ISO is one such example.  Of course, it also reflects an attempt to grapple with the reality of natural monopoly and isn't necessarily the most economic solution.


    [First, you may want to change the last sentence, otherwise you might get suggestions you don't want to hear. wink]

    This is a massive topic, of course.  I would say that what needs to be outlined in someway is what is the scope of one individual's responsibility for another from the community's point of view, as well as one community's responsibility to another (does Indiana have any responsibility to help out Alabama or Florida after a hurricane, deal with their poverty, etc).

    In other words, at what point does charity become mandatory, a requirement of citizenship?  When do I or someone else have to limit our pursuit of happiness in order to increase another's?


    I think it also needs to be pragmatic. The concept of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" sounds good, but it ignores natural human tendencies. There needs to be some sort of reward system. What the optimal reward system would be would necessarily depend on what the desired outcome is. Do we want to maximize our potential, or do we want to maximize our happiness, or is there some other quantity that we're wanting to optimize? Additionally, we need to factor in sustainability into those calculations.


    In a sense this depends on how constitutes "fairness", as well as "a decent, dignified life"?

    And what is the percentage that is acceptable of the minority who are treated fairly and are not afforded a decent, dignified life living under this new system?  How many folks can fall through the cracks and we say, "that okay, no system is perfect."


    Thanks for noting the typo.  Fixed.


    How do we preserve the freedoms of our society while more equitably sharing our collective prosperity?  Maybe labor should have significant ownership in all companies that employ more than 20 people.  That might be a start.


    Maybe in governing those companies as well.


    Definitely.  Maybe there should be a Co-CEO.  One looks out for shareholders, the other looks out for labor.


    One could spend a lot of time just figuring out how does one resolve the problem of when the two co-CEOs utterly disagree.  Is there some kind of mediator that steps in - and who provides and pays that mediator?  Maybe there could be elected positions based on House districts.  Hmmm.  I have to say I like that idea.  Elected mediators who represent not the citizens in DC but both the workers and the companies.  Should the employees get a raise?  Does the CEO deserve a bonus?  Should the profits be used for research and development or increasing health care coverage?  Do you want to elect someone who leans in favor of the workers or one that tends to lean on the side of management.  There we are back again between the liberals and the conservatives, and the libertarians flipping out as the government expands its role into society.


    This might sound naive but I don't think that they will ultimately disagree quite so much as you might think.  Ultimately, they'll be out for the profitability of the company, it's just that the Labor CEO would be out to share that profitability more widely while the other would be looking to deliver it to shareholders.


    Unfortunately, many CEOs that currently should be looking at what's best for the shareholders in the long term are instead looking at what's best for the CEO in the short term.


    There is also the pressure from the shareholders on the CEO to show short-term gains regardless of those gains' impact on long-term sustainability of the company (if it starts to go down, they'll just sell the stocks and move their money to another company which is providing short-term gains).


    Having seen many business partnerships go awry in the start-up world--even when both partners have the same goals--I can assure you that co-CEOs is a recipe for disaster. There's a very good reason why every large institution from companies to colleges to countries has one boss. It's not that co-leaders can't work. It's that when they don't work or stop working, it's very, very bad.

    But I expect that just giving workers board representation and substantial voting rights would go a long way towards making sure that the CEOs consider their interests.


    That's it, you're fired in this town where you will never do lunch again.


    Bah, I've never done lunch.


    Why do we need CEOs anyway?  Why is it that we have come to accept that an organized enterprise that exists for the production of goods or services should be governed in such a hierarchical fashion?   Why are business enterprises governed like military organizations, rather than like familiar democratic communities?

    The co-CEO approach seems like the Roman approach of appointing tribunes in what is still a fundamentally a hierarchical patriarchy and command system.


    In the end, one still has a hierarchical system, where the CEO is replaced by the majority.  In those community projects and initiatives I have been involved in, there can be some serious bad blood created when the majority group imposes it rule on the minority group, or during the process in which the strongest proponents of each side attempt to court the fence sitters. There is going to be very few situations in which a true consensus will be found.  One can only imagine the brew-ha-ha that would ensue if a corporation of 3000 employees try to divide the profits.  Does the guy in the mail room receive the same increase as the guy who is responsible for keeping the IT network running responsibly?


    Look, sure.  In any democratic system in which decisions are made by voting, even the fairest and most scrupulously egalitarian you can imagine, you can say the majority side is at the top of a hierarchy.   But c'mon.  Are you now saying democracy is no better than authoritarianism, because democracy tolerates the hierarchy of the winners of votes?

    Obviously there would be lots of disagreements in a democratic system of corporate governance.   There would be discussion, and debate, and politics.  And the losers might have hard feelings.  That's the nature of any democratic political process.   Discussion and debate are good things, and hard feelings are an inevitable by-product of any organization's need to make organizational decisions.

    I think it would probably be a very good thing for everyone in a company to actually debate and decide how people should be compensated, just as it is a good thing for people in a broader society to debate and decide such things as how people should be taxed.   Will there be a lot of intense disagreement?  Sure.  That's what politics is for.


    Are you now saying democracy is no better than authoritarianism, because democracy tolerates the hierarchy of the winners of votes?

    That is not what I am saying.  What you seem to have done is demonized this thing called "hierarchy."  Look at what these people did as CEOs (along with their VPs and CFOs, COOs, and CKOs) to their workers and the country.  They operated in a system in which can labeled a hierarchy - therefore anything that can be said to be hierarchical must be bad.  And any system that moves toward greater flatness, must be better to the extent it eliminates any facets related to a hierarchical system.

    Using this reasoning, one would say a committee will run more efficiently and effectively if it eliminates a chairperson, and allows all decisions related to the development and implementation of the agenda be placed to the committee.  Now, you can toss out that claiming that having a chairperson who can override any particular person as related to the rules of order (agreed upon by all of the participants of the committee) is the same as claiming that authoritarianism is as good as democracy as a means of governing a community, but that would be just tossing out loaded words to ignore the subject at hand.

    Now one topic that has not been fully addressed given all this is effectiveness in achieving the company objectives.  Of course we have plenty examples of executive teams and outside financial entities running companies into the ground in the effort to achieve some short term gain for themselves and/or their shareholders.  At the same time, we need to recognize the company, if it is operating in some form of market, capitalist or otherwise, needs to effectively produce whatever product and/or service it has been deemed within the scope of its mission.

    Just as a chairperson will in general increase the likelihood that the committee meeting will be more effective, all things being equal, than not having a chairperson, a company will in general be more effective in achieving its mission if ultimate decision making is made by a single mind, rather than the mind of the collective.

    The reality is that great CEOs (or leaders in any endeavor, including the military or government) realize they do not have all the answers nor do they even know what the full extent of the problems are.  In responding to this reality, they turn to an assembled team of those who do know the answers to these dilemmas.

    The evidence clearly points out that, say, in a factory assembly line, a CEO would be an idiot not to empower the workers in the process of where the company can modify the way the company does business.  Just as he or she would be an idiot to ignore the IT VP about the data network and make the decision based on their limited knowledge of computers and IT networks. 

    Such knowledge of this dynamic leads along one thread that it is in the company's interest to retain employees at all levels of the organization because of their knowledge and expertise, and to increase not only the empowerment of the employees, but also their morale, so that they are more willing to stick around and be willing participants in the growth of the organization.

    This retention and morale opportunity is directly related to compensation - whether it financial, benefits, work environment, or informal relations between various departments and levels of the organization within the hierarchy.

    And this is where the issue of bad blood comes into play.  The minority within a company who believe they have disempowered by the majority are less likely to be retained, and if they remain with the company, their morale will begin to plummet.  Individuals who need to go the extra mile in order to achieve the objectives of the company just may not go that extra mile - try to retain a disgruntled customer, report a machine not functioning at full capacity, etc etc.

    In the end, having a hierarchy in a company doesn't exclude the possibility of everyone in a company to actually debate how people should be compensated, just as having a representative form of government doesn't exclude people in a broader society to debate such things as how people should be taxed.  The question is who actually makes the final decision after all of the intense disagreement.  If the CEO does have a view of maintianing long-term sustainability of the company, he or she will truly listen to details of those debates, balance all the disagreements, consult with those who need to be consulted.

    The assumption you are making it seems is that you believe that majority will naturally come to decisions that are in the best short and long term sustainability of the company, in such a way that it will benefit all the employees, and not seek short-term gains and benefits that will ultimately lead to the common ungood.

    So it isn't that a hierarchy is bad or good, it is how it is used to achieve the agreed upon objectives.  The problem these days is that many at the top have the wrong objectives, and this leads to utilization of the system in a way that leads to the common ungood.


    Familiar democratic communities? The kinds with presidents, prime ministers, governors, and mayors? Democracy means that the voters choose the leaders, not that there are no leaders. You know better than that.

    PS Rome was an empire for most of its existence. And its triumvirates didn't work out to well.


    Sorry, I tend to think New Hampshire style, where lots of our towns are governed by a combination of boards and town meetings.  But the point is that a mayor or a prime minister is not a CEO precisely because they are chosen in elections.  CEOs are chosen by the owners of the organizations they run, not the participants in those organizations.  Mayors and prime ministers are also subject to legal restraints and checks on their power by other branches of the government with divisions of authority.  The CEO is more like a general who commands everyone under him.

    There are other familiar democratic institutions for governing other organizations we belong to, some using direct democracy and others using representative democracy and elected multi-person governing bodies.

    Imagine what it would be like to live in a town in which all of the town's property was owned by people who don't live there, in which those owners selected an authoritarian government to govern the people who do live there, and in which the people who live there could be exiled at the government's discretion for virtually any reason.  Pretty horrible.  And yet that's pretty much what it's like to work for a corporation in the United States.


    No disagreement from me there. As I wrote above, the workers should have substantial voting rights and board representation. They should, in short, play a role in choosing the CEO.


    Another possible model is the employee-owned corporation.  In effect, the employees and the shareholders are the same people.  Of course, many start-ups begin this way, but end up going public or otherwise selling shares to private interests.  Still, this model is compatible with our current system.  Michael Moore touches on this briefly in Capitalism​.


    Right, but the start-ups generally seek investment for the simple reason that most employees don't have the capital to finance expansion.

    I don't think think that we can realistically eliminate capital investment, but we can certainly reduce the executive power associated with capital investment in modern corporations.


    This would certainly seem to be a problem.  Executive power and compensation are both much higher here than in successful competitors like Germany and Japan.  It used to be better here in those respects.  How do we get that back?


    Democracy means that the voters choose the leaders, not that there are no leaders.

    Wow.  This statement of yours is so wildly skewed it makes just about everything else you've written lately make sense.  Do you really think that's what democracy means?


    I would argue that the capitalist aspect of our society would have worked better had the markets been truly competitive, and well-regulated. The problem is crony capitalism in which corporations control the markets for their self-interest and crony socialism in which the public bails out their riskiest gambits. In short, and I'm not the first to write this, the problem is government in the service of short term capitalist goals rather than long term social goals.


    There is that whole issue.  Most of the people who call themselves capitalists could never survive under a system of true capitalism.  Not saying I could, by the way.  There's always a smarter fish.


    For what it's worth, I don't believe that a system of "true competition" or "genuinely free markets"  would produce a better outcome   This is another focus of the libertarian line that puts all the blame on state power, and argues that the ugly messes wrought by our modern economy are all the results crony capitalism interfering with the purity of laissez faire market exchange.  I don't buy that.   Crony capitalism is a big problem.  But free people in free markets doing their free exchanging thing are perfectly capable of producing tremendous inequality, oppression, exploitation and instability all by themselves.  Economic savagery and calamity are inherent in the unregulated forces of human avarice and need themselves.  


    Honestly, I think it would produce a far worse outcome... one based much more on brute force than even our current system (which already relies too much on force, in my opinion.)  In a truly libertarian system, the only people who would matter would be those who controlled the most effective armies, either through sheer numbers or technology.  We've seen this happen in black market economies.  It'd be the mafia or street gangs, but with billion dollar market caps.

    I was observing, not endorsing.


    One of my favorite professors for econ development used to say something along the lines of "Markets aren't free; they're expensive."  What he meant is that markets actually take quite a bit in the way of infrastructure and institutions (ie government) in order to come close to functioning well, ie being competitive and therefor efficient.  After all, neoclassical welfare economics is all about ​efficiency​, not equity.  To the extent that equity is delivered, it's baked into utility, but that's not really the kind of equity we're talking about when we look at distributional concerns.

    Of course, as both you and Donal note, private concerns go a long way to make sure that the markets they face are less competitive.  They want to be price makers, not price takers.  It's all about extracting rents. 


    A good Shiraz.


    The wine or the citywink


    Shiraz has a big, bold flavor of blackberry, plum, chocolate and spice. Oooh, Momma! Gets me all tingly. In France, Syrah shares the same flavor profile, but more subtle. Subtle as a three-toed frog, said the frog. Shiraz wine is at its peak of flavor when it is young, within five years after bottling.  For the best taste serve this wine at a chilly temperature of 64 degrees.

    But, can Shiraz be had by the masses for less than fifty dollars a bottle? The answer to that simple question can tell us all we need to know about the chance of Capitalism working.


    I like stinky, funky wines, so I'm a Cab Franc and Pinotage kind of guy.  But... shiraz under $50?  Easy to find good ones!  Though, in my experience, the wine market is one of the least efficient out there.


    If you want to taste a real wine, Zinfandel Advocates and Producers will showcase a multitude of Zins from luscious red table wines to Ports in San Francisco in January.

    Are you guys drinking Rhone Syrahs and Penfold Grange if you're paying 50$ and up for your Syrahs. Try Chilean Syrahs or a host of California Syrahs.



    LOL. Red Red Wine is actually by UB40.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXt56MB-3vc


    Well there is capitalism and then there is capitalism.

    Like in some blog I did recently, I discussed this renewing restaurant show on the Food Channel. There are fifteen or so people dedicated to a small restaurant.

    And the purpose is manifest. Come here and we will fix you dinner. We are not a national chain but we have been in the community in one form or other for thirty years and our hash/chili/mac/hamburgers are dependable and you get a clean plate and a fairly nice looking waitress (a little sexism is not so bad, is it?)

    But then there are chains, and there are food manufacturers and there are clowns and slides and malted milks and slushies and the food servers do not even get tips.

    And then there are the really bad examples. This fat faced repub pimp is on the late nite cable selling gold coins--something that really got beckerhead fired. "Oh we are all going to hell in a handbasket and negroes are going to invade your neighborhoods but if you plan correctly now, you can have your stored gold coins to help you survive the communists.

    Then there are, besides the Ronco and shamwow liars, the folks who make money by having you send them $20.00 for two dollar bills or by having you send them $30.00 for what amounts to be a roll of quarters...

    And of course, sitting in my PJ's at three AM I start thinking:

    "Hell, I could do that!"

    Of course the real concern has to do with big fracking enterprizes (and here I thought everyone knew fracking was a dirty word repeated constantly on the SyFy channel) that move into your neighborhood, make oil out of shale, and turn your water system into poison that causes cancer in your your neighbors and turns rabbits blue.

    And banks, who used to pay me interest on funds deposited, now charge you to take money out of your own accounts.

    And banks end up getting a percentage of all funds received by stores that actually sell stuff.

    And banks end up leading people to think that they signed on to a mortgage at 4% and then inform the mortgagors that they will really have to pay 10% on that mortgage six months after they signed the papers.

    And the 'health industry' demands increases every year in the amount of 10% to check out your kid's tonsils.

    And the oil industry pays politicians to say 'drill baby drill' and then they proceed to destroy a thousand miles of shoreline and all they can say is: ooooooooooooops!

    Oh well that is enough today.

     

     


    Suggestions?  Plenty, but planting seeds before preparing the soil can too easily end in a failed crop.

    Besides, capital has its place in the economic realm. Our problem is that it has become an -ism and the One True Way for too many people.  The ideology is the problem; not the capital, at least not directly.  

    Capital is just money,  Capitalism evolved as a way to do some useful things with surplus money that resulted in even more surplus money.  Then it mutated into the greedy monster we have today.  

    But there is a silver lining.   Along the way, we have learned much about how money works and how easily and quickly its digital form can accumulate into unsafe and unhealthy pools.  When money's functions as a unit of account (keeping score) and as an eternal store of value (dynasties?) start interfering with its primary function as a medium of exchange, it is time to rethink the whole monetary system before the whole thing comes tumbling down anyway.

    So let's start rethinking it.  It should be fun.

     


    This way of thinking, which is pretty much right on the spot, has led some to propose things such going back to the gold standard. 

    I am not much of an economist, and don't quite get the whole relation between money supply and inflation, etc.  But it would seem to me that if all the world leaders could come together and just create one global currency, and whatever is in the accounts at that time, based on whatever the trade value is at that time, is how many units of this currency is. 

    Then a global committee can state such and such country is provided an x amount of units after it meets this or that criteria, which it can distribute to its citizens. 

    Each country would be able to receive at the beginning of the year, a per capita amount of units in which to operate. This would eliminate the need to tax the citizens.  The global market would know exactly how much capital was being infused into the economy from each government.  The argument about how to spend those units would be up to each government - but there would be some parameters that so much of those units had to be paid toward social services, increasing education, job training, low or no income housing, medical care, etc. 

    Third world country citizens would know just how much their government has, so if they see nothing trickling down to them, they know they are being screwed.

    If governments want to fund things like the military, they have to do it through the generation of revenue - selling of resources, providing special services, etc.


    This way of thinking, which is pretty much right on the spot, has led some to propose things such going back to the gold standard. 

    ​Then I was unclear or possibly just incomplete.  From the perspective of everyday people, there is little difference between gold-standard and fiat money.   There would just be less of it since the money supply would be attached to a practically finite supply of gold.  Since gold standard does not mean gold specie, currency would likely still be base metal and paper and numbers in ledgers would still be numbers in ledgers.

    Money works so well because it allows us to exchange our labor for another's across space and time.  That is a marvelous utility, one well worth keeping, but one that we may want to rethink given how much has accumulated to so few.  Once inflation and taxes along with a more distributed economic structure kept it in check.  Now, not so much.  

    People who like the gold standard want the fruits of their labor to last forever.  That seems unreasonable to me.

    Later.


    Money is just a tool for exchange, and can work in different ways depending on how exchange is regulated.  The central phenomena are the laws and institutions governing property and decision-making power.  Under capitalism, the ownership of property functions as a kind of vote for the allocation of the output of productive enterprises that draw on many inputs, and the more property that is owned by some individual, the greater the bargaining power and the more "votes" one has.  Ownership itself, not any other social value or virtue, is the foundation of capitalist justice.


    Your statement here is a succinct expression of how the power of property rights dictate what systems of exchange are possible.

    Marx asserted that ending the structure of property would allow a new way of making and exchanging things to be possible. The notion that cancelling the role of personal ownership would make for a different world is clear enough but the either/or quality Marx brings to the question makes him more of a prophet than an observer of the limits of a system. His confidence in calling for the destruction of one system as a direct means to bringing about another is naive; something half admitted by Marxists of the stripe calling for a dictatorship of the proletariat.

    So, in regards to your call for alternatives, I think the notion of property needs to be articulated in a way that satisfies those who do not want to give up everything to a common good while preventing the mere possession of wealth to have so much power over other people. To put it another way, is the "winner takes all" aspect of some deals a necessary component of the idea of personal property?


    A rich man once asked a wise man "What must I do, to enter the kingdom of the heavens (paradise/nirvana)?  The wise man told him, sell all of your belongings and follow me.  


    Then the "wise" man bought himself a BMW and fancy clothes, while laughing at the formerly rich man. wink


    Well Dan old man, if the majority of the people suck - it won't matter one bloody bit what system you have. It's still going to suck.

    As long as you have people who are selfish, self-centered, arrogant, greedy, lacking in remorse, callousness and lacking in empathy, manipulative, authoritarian and superficial -  the economic and political system will be just as bad no matter what it is. Especially if there are those who admire these traits - and if our current political situation is any indication - more than a few do.

    It all boils down to the lowest common denominator. 

    And it has been my experience that people will not change their behavior and attitudes until their backs are against the wall and it's a choice between changing or suffering a tortuous,  painful, horrible lingering death.


    Good point.  But I think it is also true that the system in which people are required to function can take decent people and make them hard-hearted, authoritarian, deceptive and selfish.   The capitalist corporation thrives on those values.


    That's true. But you have to start somewhere and I like to start at the source.

     

    "That's a great catch, that Catch 22" "It's the best there is."

     

    But seriously, I doubt that "good people" would come up with a shitty system. Then an infinite number of monkeys will eventually come up with a script to My Mother The Car.


    But did anyone "come up" with the system or did it just sort of evolve and unfold over time, with a variety of forces pulling and pushing it into what we have today?


    Well the so called communist system. In China and Vietnam and Cuba it worked. In Russia and it's satelites..no so much. I think it was more the people than the system.

    I like this quote.

    "I've joined maybe a thousand pairs in my life- Some had papers, some didn't. Some stuck, some didn't. The papers didn't make the difference. It was the people."

    As for here, it was mostly designed this way from the beginning. By the wealthy businessmen of the time - a number of whom did not like extending "rights" to those who were not wealthy businessmen.

     


    Not to be too argumentative and snide (wink), but can you provide the date when these wealthy businessmen designed our current system and then implemented it?  Were they all Americans or was done in cooperation with those across the pond?


    I believe it is what was called the constitution and originally only set up for property rights and not individual rights.  And the so called Bill of Rights only applied to land owning white men and nobody else. And only land owning White mew could vote.

    And in the 19th century the supreme court would decide in favor of corporations in nearly every case vs states or indivuals.

     


    This is kind of my point.  We have 19th century supreme court decisions over a period of time that does this here and that there.  Meanwhile local, state, and federal legislators writing various laws and imposing and eliminating various regulations over time.  Then we go back to the Constitution which has nothing about corporations, but dealt with ownership issues.  But then we can go back to something like the Magna Carta or the Charters from the King of England that helped develop the early settlements of the American continent.  And before that go back to the economic systems of the early Roman Empire.  And before that...


    I have to be perfectly blunt however. The only hope I have for this country now is that it breaks out in one of the worst, bloodiest, most horrendous civil wars known.

    Otherwise it will simply sink even deeper into repressive totalitarian state.


    The best systems minimize the amount of harm that selfish people can do.


    Very insightful.  However, it has been my experience that people will change their behavior and attitudes in response to a determined and/or deep-pocketed mass media campaign.  It  was easier to do that with our generation because of the limited number of media outlets.  Harder now, but still doable for good or ill.


    There seems to be an assumption here that capitalism should be done away with, perhaps because Dan's description is so damning, though he ends with suggestions for "changing" it.

    My question is, would reforming it be a pretty good outcome, even enough?

    Or has it "devolved" to the point where there's no future for it except downward?

    What if we could reform society to a point where unemployment was around 3%, inflation the same, upward mobility was the rule, unions were strong, plenty of manufacturing...

    IOW, what if we could turn back the clock to the early 1960s, minus Vietnam, minus trashing the environment, minus the horrid racism, etc?

    Would that adequately fix capitalism?