oleeb's picture

    Wilson Should Apologize To The Nation, The President And Then Resign

    Rep. Wilson is an embarassment to the Congress and to the United States for his unprecedented display of outlandish and unacceptable disrespect for the President of the United States.  There has never been such an incident in the history of speeches to joint sessions of Congress.  I myself have watched every such speech for the past 40 years and there was never, even in the most tense and difficult circumstances any member of Congress who behaved so shamefully.

    I do not think it any coincidence that Rep. Wilson hails from the state of South Carolina.  He would never have dared to heckle a white President.  For his disgusting and repulsive behavior, Wilson should apologize to the people of the United States for his outrageous conduct, he should apologize to the President and then he should immediately tender his resignation from Congress having brought shame upon the House of Representatives in such an unprecedented manner and upon his state and constituents. 

    Every decent citizen should contact his office and demand his public apology to the nation and his resignation.


    Wilson is an assclown of the highest order. But. When Wilson screamed out liar I kept thinking how I wished someone had the courage to challenge Dubya on his actual lies about weapons of mass destruction and mushroom clouds and the United States does not torture. Maybe we're just too polite.

    Sticks and stones.

    If you want censure you have to work at it.

    Congress works this way: it's all personal. This guy just dug himself a bit of a hole that will be hard to get out of. Both with the White House and with other members of Congress. And the maddening thing is it can simply take the shape of unreturned phone calls. Does this happen? Hmmmm....

    Politicians need each other. The art of politics is to understand how to stick the shiv in the other guy (metaphorically speaking to get your way) so it feels good to him.

    Sometimes I'm surprised here at TPM. For all the political wonks, there is sometimes a lack of awareness how things really work.

    Let the situation resolve itself. Trust me, it will -- and to more damage than your mere punitive stance. I don't want more distractions for an already, overly taxed Congress.

    Yeah, I don't think we want to go around enforcing congressional speech codes for presidential addresses.

    Me too.

    I also thought about the challenge of sitting through a GWB address with a straight face while he mangled the English language in unexpected and creative ways.

    It has nothing to do with speech and it isn't about punishing him. It has to do with respect and conduct and taking responsibility.

    He wasn't just obnoxious, he was way over the line and acted disgracefully as no member of Congress has ever done in the past. Having brought shame and disgrace upon the House he should do the honorable thing and resign after apologizing to one and all.

    Okay, time for a little thought experiment.

    Is what he did worse than... umm.... leaving the scene of an accident where someone died? And then pleading guilty?

    Did that bring shame to the Senate? Would you - an out of stater - call for his resignation?

    Believe me, Wilson's reward for his behavior is coming. The real issue is that you won't be there to witness it.

    What I wonder is how much he hurt the Republican Party. Wilson's behavior was about as moronic and infantile as you can get. Really becoming. I'm sure South Carolinians are proud of their resident douchebag.

    There does need to be a public flogging, of sorts. His behavior was out of line and brings shame on us all. He represents us and this country regardless of how he got there. I want to know this behavior is not going to be tolerated in Congress. Where did he learn this? A town hall? Maybe we need to watch the tapes and see where he played this role.

    Or maybe he just has a simple case of VD.

    John McCain was already on television tonight saying it was inexcusable. Exactly what would satisfy your blood lust at this point?

    Do you see how the PR advantage of this has tipped to Democrats? At exactly the time they are looking for votes? The pressure builds behind the scenes on things like this... and all of a sudden you are isolating the GOP elements from each other. Without creating a spectacle.

    I'd far prefer the political advantage in the subtle way then the slap on the wrist after which we will go back to business as usual. Go take a look at his election numbers. They are overwhelming. Even in a year where the Dems bulldozed over everything, he won 54-46. That district is not going Democrat anytime soon.

    Now let me ask you this which would you prefer in that seat for the next year? a fresh new GOP face? Or the weakened man who is now pwned?

    Politics is played with a stiletto, not a sledge hammer.

    We've had people in recent years who have been responsible for things which make what Wilson did pale by comparison. Those persons saw no need to step down so I doubt Wilson will give even a second to considering it. What he really could use is twice weekly therapy sessions for at least six months to work through his issues.

    We all need dreams.

    I think everyone missed the message Wilson was making.

    Frankly, we all must give our sincere thanks and deep appreciation to Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) for having to courage to tell the President to his face on national TV what those of us in the Democrat Party haven't been able to articulate correctly ... bipartisanship isn't going to work with this Congress.

    I actually feel sorry for Joe Wilson. He is carrying around a load nobody should have to bear. I sincerely hope he gets some help.

    Which one?

    Apparently, Republicans don't resign their public office no matter how offensive their personal behavior, or ethical standards for that matter.

    Personally, I don't want to see Wilson resign. Nor do I want to see Sanford or Ensign resign or see Palin go away. I want to see them out there as a constant reminder to everyone of the righteousness of the Republican Party.

    And a big shout out to Saxby Chambliss: Was that humble enough for your cracker ass?

    I think the question should be put to the State Bar of South Carolina.

    In calling President Obama a liar, Miller has lied. Section 246 of HB 3200 expressly disqualified illegal aliens.

    That is sanctionable conduct under the State Bar's rules.

    While Miller's Congressional seat is safe for anyone who can throw red meat to a public that still wants to see a Confederate flag flying on the State Capitol grounds.

    Check it out at:

    Maybe Wilson should have waved that flag during the speech.


    I think Ol' Joe just made it a bit easier for the Dems to go the reconciliation route (if they need to). There should be no bipartisanship on healthcare with a GOP whose members shame our democratic institutions like this.

    BTW, while I think expecting a resignation is a bit much, his ass should be censured for violating the House rules of decorum.

    We have gone way beyond subtle behind the scenes posturing. The Republicans have made the strategic decision that they are not going to engage in the legislative process because they feel it is more politically expedient to disrupt, obstruct and delay. This has been on full display all summer. Politicians who are tacitly endorsing or even out right promoting flagrant lies like "Obama isn't an American", "Obama is creating death panels" or even "Obama is going to give healthcare to illegal immigrants" are beyond being shamed into obedience.

    There is a feed back loop going on where Republican politicians are inciting disrespectful behavior from supporters who then go and escalate it. And now we have on full display the politicians taking that behavior to the next level. Not just Joe Wilson but the congress people showing up with signs and waving copies of their "bills". Even Eric Cantor using his blackberry. A year ago, someone using a blackberry during a presidential address of congress would have inspired outrage. Now we have the people who were up in arms about Obama not wearing a jacket in the office laughing about and tacitly supporting Joe Wilson's behavior. The message is that there is no need to be respectful, respect is something other people need to give to them. They believe their ideas to be superior and view listening to anyone else's as a waste of their time.

    The Republicans have recognized that they are in a position of extremely diminished power. So rather than use what influence they do have to affect the legislative process, they are doing their best to destroy the power of the Democrats. And to incite their supporters to behave incredibly badly so as to dominate the conversation and appear more significant and influential than they are. This needs to be stopped. Wilson needs to be called out and disgraced.

    You can claim that politics is played with a stiletto not a sledgehammer, but the past year (sorry, past nine) has pretty clearly shown that the Republicans play with sledgehammers. If they can't have it nobody can and the only ones getting knifed are the American people. To follow your advice is to bring a knife to a gun fight. (Sorry for mixing my metaphors.)

    Oh, and I believe the word you were looking for is Democratic. Democrat is a noun and Democratic is the associated adjective. I know it is a subtle language usage issue but it's one worth paying attention to, particularly since people intentionally confuse the two as a demonstration of disrespect. It might help to try substituting the words "artist" and "artistic". If both seem to work then you probably want the adjective form.

    I really like you, oleeb. You've been a kind and thoughtful visitor to the comments on my blog. I have to say, though, I can't think of a much more naive response to Rep. Joe Wilson's outburst.

    When Eliot Spitzer got caught with his knickers down, I said, loud and clear, that he should NOT RESIGN. Why? Because if ONLY Democrats resign for moral reasons, and Republicans never do, we'll have a Democrat deficit of the highest order, where we need it the least--in executive and Senate positions.

    Did David Vitter resign? Did Larry Craig? Did Mark Foley? (no, he didn't; he just withdrew from his re-election, like Craig) Did Denny Hastert resign? Did Tom DeLay resign? Has Mark Sanford resigned yet?

    Even if they commit outright crimes, Republicans NEVER resign. Joe Wilson might as well have been at a deather rally.

    And he might as well have been in the pay of George Soros, too, for all the good it did his cause.

    I think this is an opportunity!!

    Wilson's actions last night were a perfect Metaphor for the crap the right has been doing for the last month!

    Use it.

    Obama said he was going to "Call Out" anybody who was distorting or lying about the Health Care reforms. This is "Call Out" #1. Show his discraceful face, and shame him publicly!

    Any lawmaker who says anything similar should be instantly TIED TO Wilson.

    Attach as many of them to Wilson as possible!!!

    Make EVERY Repuke the EQUIVALENT of Wilson.

    Amen, amen, and amen, bruh. Some days it's hard for a contrarian like me to find a post I agree with so thoroughly.

    Like some others I don't have a problem that Wilson said what he did, how he said it and where. He is a jerk, and he is the one lying, but his outburst makes it abundantly clear to all Americans that there can be no negotiating with the right on health care reform. Even the right knows what asses he made them all out to be with everyone from John McCain to Eric Cantor demanding that Wilson apologize to our president. The president has broad shoulders, he can take a sophmoric catcall and shake it off...as he plows on with reform of our health care system.

    Actually, this wasn't just some debate point on the House floor. A joint session of Congress being addressed by a President is a rare occasion, indeed.

    That said, there's no outright punishment warranted here. Clearthinker, as right-leaning as s/he may be, is right. Joe Wilson is reaping what he's sown, in spades.

    Thanks, Joe. There is literally no one else who's done more to advance health care reform than you have. And only one as stupid as a deather could have pulled it off.

    Uh, oleeb...much worse actual crimes have been committed in both Houses of Congress. A Senator was hit with a club from behind, sank into a coma, and later served the remainder of his term as a near-vegetable...mostly because they needed his vote. The other Senator got off scot-free. I believe he ended up behind Confederate lines anyway.

    No, oleeb, what Wilson did was bad, but not punishable by anything more than peer pressure. And in this climate in DC, that is actually a helluva lot of punishment. He's going to watch as we get even better health care reform than we thought--thanks to Joe Wilson and the outrage he has wrought.

    Mission Accomplished! And Obama is about three plays away from winning his first 11-dimensional chess game with the GOP. I admit: I never saw it coming. Life is like that sometimes, no matter how much you know about politics.

    Oh, come on, Gregor...you want to make sure this never happens again in Congress?

    It SHOULD have happened--only between January 2001 and 2009, and several times. But it never happens when it SHOULD, now, does it?

    The media shitstorm is mopping the floor with Joe Wilson. I'll bet even a lot of deathers and birthers and GOP True Believers are shocked enough at not just the display of bad manners, but the headlines they woke up to this morning also, to give Obama another think. By a lot, I mean low statistically. But to at least a million people, manners mean more than their rhetoric and ideology. Takes all kinds.

    "The real issue is that you won't be there to witness it."

    Oh, CT, I'm so disappointed. You can do better than this. Normally you're more subtle when you try to sneak a personal dig into an otherwise respectable disagreement with the poster.

    It always HAS to be about the other guy's character, doesn't it?

    Yes. I would. But he didn't resign, got re-elected, and then spent the rest of his lights fighting for people less fortunate than him. He got that 2d chance because of his last name, and he used it. And at some point, water passes under the bridge.

    This is'nt about dissing the president, its about decorum. I'm sure there is a tint of racism in his outburst. The kind of thing I expect from those who are inspired by RL, and Hannity. He is a bum, plain and simple. But then, what do you expect for the south.

    No blood lust, no.

    Oleeb had it exactly right the first time.

    No question. Absolutely correct.

    I try not to say things like this but I'll make an exception here. This is an *idiotic* remark.

    I understand, and I respectfully disagree. I don't want to be part of a society where the President can't make a speech to a co-equal branch, whatever he wants to say.

    Oh and just in terms of Bush, if curious, one may check my party affiliation by clicking my name below.

    people forget that racists like wilson are just representatives of their state.

    untill the decent people become the majority these types will be elected.

    I wrote this elsewhere but I'll repeat it for you:

    How would it go down by the way if this Beck booster got up mid-speech, walked over to the podium during the President's address, unzipped his pants, and took a leak in his direction?

    He'd say he disagreed with the President's statement and unfortunately a combination of his emotions and his kidneys got the best of him? And apologize by phone in the evening to be hailed as a hero on Fox and the Hate Shows the next day and lifted up on their shoulders? And where is this going next by the way? You didn't think this trough one bit did you? Next time four of them get up and start jeering at the President? Wise up.

    This guy needs to be nailed to the cross for this. Period. Don't let anybody tell you different.

    And what am I calling for other than pressure on him from citizens? I am not calling for any official punishment.

    To try and make it even clearer though I think I've been exceptionally clear on this:

    I am calling for one step further than what Rep. Clyburn is calling for and I am calling on people to pressure him into that step. I think a number of people have misread what I've called for. The public should demand that he do the honorable thing (which is to apologize and then resign), now that he has disgraced the nation, himself, the House, his party, his state and his constituents.

    The instances you refer to having nothing to do with this at all. There is no comparison for Wilson's deplorable conduct. None.

    This is solely about the disgraceful conduct of a racist member of Congress and his unprecedented disrespect for the President of the United States during a joint session of the Congress. He should apologize and then resign.

    And on the positive note from JadeZ,

    give generously to this Beck-boosting jackass's opponent.


    He made $200,000 overnight. Why don't we make it a million?

    I agree Oleeb, 100%. rec'd!

    I just posted this comment of tmccarthy0's blog, but I'll post it again.

    Joe Wilson needs to learn that it's Freedom of SPEECH, not Freedom of SCREECH. What did Van Jones call Republicans? Oh yeah...

    Exhibit A = Joe Wilson

    Lawyer: "Your honor, I'm handing Exhibit A to Van Jones for identification. Mr. Jones, do you recognize Exhibit A?"
    Mr. Jones: "Yes, I do."
    Lawyer: "What is it?"
    Mr. Jones: "It's an a-hole."
    Lawyer: "Your honor, I rest my case."

    Looks like Van Jones was right. Go figure.

    I feel bad for those people in South Carolina, I mean look at there Governor, and then now their representative. Thanks to South Carolina, Illinois doesn't look so bad. I firmly believe that representative be censured and then he should resign.

    Okay, well...I don't think you've been THAT clear.

    And I still assert that your call for pressure for him to resign, in the face of Mark Sanford, from the EXACT SAME STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA, is naive.

    He won't resign. That's not all that bad. As they say in AA, even the worst lying-in-the-gutter drunk-every-day alcoholic has SOME USE: As a bad example.

    Joe Wilson just yelled his way into American history, but not the way he INTENDED.

    More from Joe Wilson about Barack Obama...

    Obama's gyrations on Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran are not the actions of one imbued with superior intuitive judgment, but rather the machinations of a political opportunist looking to avoid having his fingerprints on any issue that might be controversial, and require real judgment...

    About Obama's marvelous anti-war speech way back in 2002...

    During the 2002-2003 timeframe, he was a minor local official uninvolved in the national debate on the war so we can only judge from his own statements prior to the 2008 campaign. Obama repeated these points in a whole host of interviews prior to announcing his candidacy. On July 27, 2004, he told the Chicago Tribune on Iraq: "There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage."

    "There's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage," said Barack Obama...

    ...and he could have said the same thing about taxes, banks, Afghanistan, NAFTA, prosecuting war crimes, FISA, and a hundred other issues.

    (But just in case you haven't noticed... I was quoting former Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, instead of Rep. Addison Graves "Joe" Wilson," who represents the 2nd Congressional district of South Carolina, including the beautiful little town of Beaufort, as well as Hilton Head Island, where John McCain told his infamous joke about Chelsea Clinton and and Chelsea's "father" Janet Reno.)

    I happen to think that Bush's disrespect for my country and fellow citizens was far, far worse. What Wilson did is barely a blip on my radar in a comparative sense. His words didn't kill thousands of people.

    Now if somebody would like to let me know what the real standard of conduct is and actually follow it then I'm fine. Joe Wilson screwed up. So did Bush. Congress has decided Bush gets to walk. Joe Wilson broke decorum and for that you would get after him? After what Bush did?

    I hope everybody sees the flaw in this.

    I still don't think he should resign...he is of more use to us, as a poster child if nothing else, if he remains in the House. Why cast him away? Use him...as the personification of the racist ugly face of the conservative movement.

    This is an ideological battle we need to utilize every tool at our disposal.

    "How would it go down by the way if this Beck booster got up mid-speech, walked over to the podium during the President's address, unzipped his pants, and took a leak in his direction?"

    This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Why?

    Because Joe Wilson actually called Obama a liar last night, but Beck would never get anywhere near President Obama to accomplish your little scenario. It wouldn't happen. They'd let him carry a gun, maybe, but not piss on him. You got nothin' with your little example except overheated argument.

    You have your opinion as to what should happen to Joe Wilson, and I have mine. Trouble for you is...mine's actually based in REALITY. Yours works only in your own head. Bummer, that.

    Hey OT, I'm with Dijamo on this. The whole 'sanctity of the presidency' is a net negative, imo. A head of government should be answerable to Congress, not demand their subservience.

    Frankly, I have not said resigning was suitable. Yes, that would make him a martyr and overplay our hand, but it's not just about sending a message to Congress. It's also about sending a message to the American people that behaving this way diminishes the importance of the work we, the people, do. The town hall agitators diminished the work we, the people, are trying to do.

    BTW, this was written only hours after I heard the speech pout here on the Left Coast.

    Nonsense. Obama did lie, and someone called him out on it. The current Congressional plans include no mechanism for a determination of whether beneficiaries are illegals or not, so (as with Medicaid now) illegals will as a matter of course fraudulently collect benefits.

    Heck, in California you're not allowed to ask someone's immigration status in a court proceeding because it's "Private information".

    Wilson's outburst was regrettable, but Obama's mendacity in claiming that no illegal aliens will be covered simply because the plan says in large friendly letters that they won't (even though all and sundry know they will) is something that ought to get some air time.

    It's okay to say you think Joe Wilson SHOULD resign...

    But I fail to see where others in this 'argument' acknowledge the help Joe Wilson just gave Obama.

    And I know for a solid fact that Obama knows how Joe Wilson helped him IMMENSELY by calling him a liar in the middle of a speech to a joint session of Congress. And I'll bet Joe Wilson isn't too stupid to understand that, either.

    He'll understand it only too well when they call on him for his vote on the soon-to-pass health care reform, and when he loses his election next November.

    What the hell is so hard to understand about this? Fuck Joe Wilson. He just made American history, and not the way he would have liked.

    Best ideas I've heard all day.

    Let's make Joe Wilson's name MUD. Or do the Democrats want it that badly?

    I sure do.

    Daddy-O, I appreciate your anger toward the lack of emphatic protest to what Dubya did during his Regime, but I would expect it to be played out in places other then the floors of the House or Senate. I think you contradict yourself too. Joe Wilson has become the mop, not the janitor. If the Left had committed the same insult during Dubya's speech, they would have been the mop as well. It would not have achieved our goals, which is not an apology for the Dems not thwarting the Bush regime, but merely an observation.

    Tell me, Overreach...how could Miller have reached $200K without Joe Wilson's help? And this is only the beginning...

    You can bet your little Tazmania gravatar that Miller's thanking Joe Wilson right now for ALL JOE DID FOR MILLER last night. Funny how political jiu-jitsu works. Funny how so many people don't even see it coming, even AFTERWARDS.

    Like you.

    No he didn't lie, you are though, and the plan only will cover US citizens...

    The repeatedly debunked teabagger lies and paranoid nightmares have been given waaaaaaaay too much coverage already...

    It's not subservience. It is common decency. There is a time and place for everything and that was neither the time nor the place. He was simply a jerk, a heckler, a loud mouth. If he had any character at all, there is not a network out there that would not be blissfully agreeable to broadcasting a statement accusing the President of lying, of coure FOX would do it with more vigor then others, but you get my point.

    I think he should and probably will be censured. Resignation is too extreme. And he is clearly being being publicly diminished. Every time he speaks trying to justify himself he increases his shame and makes the situation worse.

    But I also think that the members of congress that held up signs and made other audible comments really should be reprimanded, shamed, and/or censured as well.

    This type of behavior would never be tolerated by the right if they were in the majority. Period.

    And we have already seen that if you give the republicans an inch, they will take a mile.

    So, the reason these behaviors must be reprimanded, if not censured strongly, some shame brought upon them is that it will get bigger and worse if nothing is done.

    Hey, Stupid...

    Will you be bringing your citizenship documents with you? On your way to the hospital? After having a heart attack at work?

    Of course not. But then, I'll bet you're a regular white person with a normal white person job, who would NEVER be mistaken for a brown illegal person. No worry there.

    Talk about a DEATH PANEL...the one where the hospital administrator yanks the plug because you can't find your birth certificate, whatever. This issue is a lot more complicated than you allow for here.

    Sure, SOME illegals are going to get SOME care, either because their life is threatened, an emergency, etc. But how many illegals DIE because they don't want to let anyone know their entire family is here, which they would have to admit to get the care they need?

    You got nothin'. Neither does Joe Wilson. I'd love to be there to see your stupid face when this finally passes. It would truly be a pleasure.

    Besides speaking to people who think like you even though the Soviet Union was defeated there still are Ruskis out there trying to destroy us in the name of a communist regime that doesn't exist anymore...

    Better go and start building your bomb shelter...those commie nukes might start raining down at any time. Don't forget get a lot of batteries and bottled water...fallout has a very long half life.

    Damn right, libertine. This is a mere bagatelle. If it bothers some people, eh.

    USE it, I say. USE it. Make them EAT their own shit. The Democrats and Obama could have been doing this for months now. All the Republicans DO is LIE.

    Make 'em eat it, or sleep in it. Looks like they finally crossed the line where the Democrats didn't even have to point it out.

    Democrats have, in fact, repeatedly refused to add any mechanism for checking whether enrollees or subsidy beneficiaries were, in fact, citizens. Amendments were offered (by Republicans and a few centrist Democrats). This is in the Congressional Record, it isn't a lie, it's a fact.

    The bill says it won't cover illegal immigrants. It will, in fact, cover some illegal immigrants (who are, of course, lying about their right to be in the country). Obama's statement amounts to "wink wink nudge nudge"; telling the American people one thing and making sure something else happens on the ground.

    I think that's dishonest, don't you?

    Yes, I see the flaw! A guy kills his wife in a rage. That's terrible. Hitler kills six million Jews. It's a Holocaust. They don't even compare, so let's forget about the dead wife.

    Or, maybe a little less emotional. I'm fighting with my VD here. http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/gregorzap/2009/09/vd-and-the-gop.php

    A guy races down the highway at 90 mph. An officer in his car catches him on radar and shrugs his shoulder. Last week, I pulled someone over for doing 110. He let's the speeder pass.

    Thanks for sharing.

    So, you're saying that, yes, the President lied, and some illegals would benefit from the plan. But that's okay because that's what you want to happen anyway.

    Okay. I can see that. I was not, in fact, even implying that I don't think illegals should be covered. I made no positive statement except that the President was dishonest.

    Thanks for backing me up.

    With one outburst he completely eliminated the "good will gestures" of the GOP that actually did get up and applaud on a few choice occassions, especially when they were protecting the wealth of incompetent medical professionals.

    Maybe we are seeing justice served in an unexpected way.

    Bush walks after misrepresenting the facts about Iraq and taking us to war, leading to thousands of deaths.

    Joe Wilson breaks decorum, gets hammered by democrats and republicans alike, and will probably lose his election. The nation gets a huge boost toward having a decent healthcare plan.

    Democracy is like the roads in NYC. Always under construction with lots of detours. But with perseverance you'll get where you think you want to go. And end up mildly disappointed when you get there.

    You're paranoid...and even if it was spelled out to your liking, and I don't back away from my assertion that illegals will not be covered at all with this reform, you'd still think illegals would be covered because this is all a commie conspiracy to destroy America.

    You probably think Che Guevera never really died and he is orchestrating all this from his Central American mountain hideout while talking to Karl Marx from the great beyond.

    I didn't mention communists, Russians, or even creeping socialism. I pointed out that the President lied to the country (surely this can't be too much of a shock...).

    Quit trying to make this discussion about something else. It's about Joe Wilson's statement that the President lied. At least arguably, it was accurate.

    I happen to agree that it should have waited for a press conference the next day rather than being blurted out on the floor of the House. But the hyperbole in the original post and so on is nonsense.

    I should dig up some of oleeb's posts about President Bush. I daresay he's disrespected the President a few times himself.

    Joe "Not the Diplomat" Wilson, that is.

    Joe "Valerie Plame's hubby" Wilson is okay with me.

    Dunno. Personally I prefer the British hard-ball conventions. Heckling's fine, as long as it doesn't obstruct the dialogue.

    Yes, it looks less dignified, but precisely that is the point in a way. It's in your face accountability. The president is not a monarch, he's a servant of the people just like reps in Congress.

    Classic Cantor calls for apologies. Will he apologize for texting like a sophomore himself?

    Daddy-0, you need to set your bar a littel higher. Wilson's opponent can get all this money AND we can slap him around for days and rub his slime off on the whole GOP. We need to think more like the GOP. Get as much as you possibly can. I stated above, we need to be wary of not overplaying our hand, but let's not lose any opportunities here either. Let's not leave any money on the table. Let's not count our chips ... oh, never mind, I have to go to a Gamnblers Anonymous meeting if I stick with these kinds of metaphors ... and I am not a gambler!!! :-{)>


    I think that well meaning Democrats have blocked amendments because they want to see illegal immigrants get care.

    I understand their position, even if I am a stronger believer in the rule of law, and disagree with it.

    I'm not paranoid. I'm just pointing out that Joe Wilson's statement was accurate. The President was trying to hide the ball from the American people.

    Che Guevara, socialism, and communist conspiracies have nothing to do with this debate. You brought them up (more than once) not me. I was just pointing out that the supporters of the current Congressional plan for health care reform are being dishonest about what its effects would be, and that last night the President joined them in their mendacity.

    I have made, in this thread, no references to my own view on health care reform whatsoever. You don't know whether I think the individual mandate is a good idea (or even single payer). I just pointed out a tactic used (by a President I voted for) which I think is dishonest and shoddy.

    And that the man who pointed it out publicly probably shouldn't be pilloried for speaking truth to power, even if he chose an impolitic moment.

    Speaking of the 'real liars'...He should apologize too. He claims he was just 'taking notes' though...yeah right, notes. That's it, notes. That's the ticket.


    Since you think resignation is too extreme, how about just the ol' tar and feathers or putting him in town square in stocks? I could go either way. Or, how about a dunk tank - all funds raised would go to promote HCR!?! (But it wouldn't be water in the tank!) heh heh!

    I'm all for accoutability, but that was not the time nor the place, is all I'm saying. It was a special occassion. I found it obstructive and it was also insulting, for which anyone should take offense.

    Calling on someone to the honorable thing, to apologize and resign, when they have dishonored their office and the institution in which they serve is not naive. It is appropriate. Whether or not the call is heeded is simply not relevant IMHO nor is the situation with any other politician in SC or elsewhere relevant to this uniquely disgraceful and unprecedented conduct during a joint session of Congress.

    One can only imagine the state of the union address in an election year if the Repubs think they can get away with this kind of behavior.

    Section 246 of HB 3200 expressly disqualified illegal aliens.

    It's been clearly stated. how it wil be enforced may be a question, but it is duly noted, so the declaration he lied is, in fact, a lie.

    I don't fail to see the politics of it. I don't dispute any of those secondary considerations. But the politics of it is not directly relevant to the post or the point. The political fallout is entirely a secondary issue as far as I'm concerned. I'll repeat, the issue is the disgraceful and unprecedented racist conduct of a member of the House toward the President of the United States during a joint session of Congress.

    "You think"? That is an interestingly uncertain way to start a post...

    I don't think we're really disagreeing, Gregor. Given the conventions in place, this was way out of line. Dij and I are just looking at the some of the problems with having those conventions, and the political subtext that sustains them.


    This is a red herring issue and anyone with any common sense recognizes that. Even if the bogus and unnecessary Republican amendments were approved do you really expect anyone to believe that would keep Republicans from inventing even more reasons why illegals will still get "free" healthcare? Of course not. Now please quit wasting time and cyberspace with such idiocy.

    Not from the Floor of the House, El Presidente.

    What you are suggesting is that because some illegals will slip through the radar, Obama lied. It's absurd. It's like saying we have speeding laws, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, but we don't enforce them everywhere, all the time, and people will exceed the limit, so we are really not opposed to speeding.

    What your statement reveals is that either you have a keen interest in preventing any illegal immigrant ever from getting healthcare because of the injustice of it all, or you are determined to paint the President as a liar, ignoring the language existent in the bill. You state it is arguable the President lied. Making an argument and making your point are two different things. You got nuthin'.

    Yes, the behavior of the GOP would not be tolerated in a high school auditorium. It was embarassing. It was neither the time nor the place.

    NO we're not disagreeing too much. I willmaintain though, that on this occassion, the man has the floor and the nation wants to hear him speak. We have afforded Dubya the courtesy, and I do not think that was wrong. What was wrong was a lack of emphatic objection all along the way. but I also have a feeling that the outrages was ignored by the MSM, if it was made. I think the MSM got tired of people like Kucinich and did not want them to have a headline.

    Kewl. Show me the notes. Trust but verify.

    I agree that Joe did the democrats a favor by his outburst. Now, when democrats accuse the republicans of obstructionism, they just bring out the video.

    While he does have the right to make an ass of himself and show disrespect for the president on national TV, I am ashamed for him as a parent who is trying to teach her children about respecting others. Did you see Nancy Pelosi's response? When I saw it, I laughed because I have lived that moment when my child treated me or someone else in a rude manner. She seethed the way I seethed. And she looked like she would have pounced and laid into him were she not on national TV, the way I pounced because I could.

    We voted for our Congressmen/women because we expect leadership from them. We expect them to act like statesmen/women. We expect manners when listening to the president of the United States. Last night was not the moment to debate health care. Just like you don't debate sin during a sermon. The republicans had all summer to debate, and they chose to obstruct.

    I am glad that people are speaking up about their dismay about the lack of respect to the president. I want someone to disagree with him. I want someone to have an honest debate with him about policy that is going to affect our future, but I don't want someone acting like a spoiled child showing disrespect.

    Now, Obama has taken the high road and accepted his apology. Let's use this gift to get responsible healthcare reform.

    They could be censure-boarded?

    To the contrary. I think Republicans would indeed spend time inventing more ways to inject illegals into the debate. That's why I'm not one of them.

    But until there is more than an empty blanket statement in the bill, what Obama said about illegals was dishonest. This bill doesn't even include the safeguards that Medicaid currently has - because amendments adding those safeguards were rejected by Democrats.

    Saying "Sure, SOME illegals are going to get SOME care" is like "Sure, SOME illegals are going to be working at SOME jobs in the U.S."

    Obama lied through omission. Why can't you admit it? There is no mechanism to stop illegals from getting healthcare. In fact, when amendments were proposed to create a mechanism to do this they were voted down twice. See the following at reuters. http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS53536+08-Sep-2009+PRN20090908

    So why does Obama lie? Why doesn't he just say "The bill doesn't provide health care for illegals, but we won't be having any enforcement, so for all intents and purposes, illegals will be able to get healthcare. So, all you folks in any other country who needs better healthcare, come to the U.S. because we will give it to you. And pretty soon, I'll be passing Amnesty so you will be here when that takes effect."

    Just give him his due. He starred opposite Tom Hanks in "Cast Away".

    You're just putting up you dubious and unsubstantiated opinion as though it had some great weight.

    You are: *bloviating!*

    And this guy will be a hero to the birther-and-butthead right.



    I think Joe Wilson just provided the YouTube punctuation mark on the Republican's game plan.

    We must keep pressing on this lie. Lies are the enemy of reform here.

    Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them!

    Wilson lied. He continues to lie about the issue of illegal immigrants, while saying he has apologized.

    The original bill has a specific exclusion for illegal aliens. See Section 246 of the bill for the language. There is no need for enforcement in this bill, since enforcement is automatically provided criminally through federal criminal laws on fraud and civilly through the Federal False Claims Act. All he can point to to defend his opinion are some Republican amendments which failed. Killing Republican "catfish" amendments.

    The story is that the charade is over. Now we see the men behind the curtain pulling the levers.

    Republican surrogates have been spreading lies through the Limbaugh-Beck Disinformation Expressway for months. They have been happy to let Teabaggers and Birthers parrot this drivel all over the place. That way they can distance themselves from the lies, while letting the lies run wild.

    Now we have an elected Republican liar on tape. Let's find out how all the rest of elected Republicans stand on this lie.

    Call them OUT!

    And yet again, you are:


    LOL! They would be the first to tell you it's not torture:)

    Very true! Which is why it should be made clear that there are standards and expectations that members of Congress must abide by as it relates to the simply, common respect shown to the President of the United States. If people do not rise up in a hue and cry demanding this racist not only apologize but step down for disgracing us all then similar and worse conduct will be sure to follow. A joint session of the United States Congress is not a town hall meeting. This disgraceful conduct requires more than simply having the racist heckler endure the shame and humiliation. The only honorable thing to do is for him to resign after apologizing.

    That people insist on seeing this only as a political act or as just another instance of bad conduct by a politician is to fail to see the point entirely. If there is any hope for serious debate to be restored in our national legislature this sort of conduct simply cannot be tolerated by the people, not just the other members. Over the years, the Republicans have done tremendous damage to the ability of the Congress to act responsibly. Wilson's conduct ventures into new territory that must be turned back by the public in the most decisive way. Otherwise, more of the same and worse will be encouraged and tolerated.

    Ahhhh...I see where you are coming from if I completely disagree with your conclusions.

    But it won't be white Canadians or Europeans, right? They already have their own government run health care...and swear by it in fact. So you must be talking about those bad dark skinned people from south of the border, right? We can't have those people in our white anglo-saxon christian nation can we?

    I love when racists out themselves...

    "There is no need for enforcement in this bill, since enforcement is automatically provided criminally through federal criminal laws on fraud and civilly through the Federal False Claims Act."

    That sounds like the same kind of enforcement used to keep illegal aliens from working in the U.S. And look how good THAT is working.

    Look, let's just get this over with. Let's just not have any borders to the U.S. because somehow we are NOT supposed to have any say in who comes in and who doesn't. Is that your point? We don't need any stinkin' immigration laws?

    There he is Ladies and Gentlemen:


    No borders? Whoever suggested that around here? Not me. There are people from all over the world living here illegally but all the anti-immigration whackos focus on are the dark skinned ones from south of the border.

    No. We should be cracking down on companies who are encouraging the illegals to cross the border so they can exploit their labor for obscene profit. Most of those companies are run by political conservatives by the way...


    On passion I would agree with you. I agree that strong action must be taken.

    However standing back and considering the reality that this is a publicly elected official, if his constituents demanded he resign, I would be perfectly happy to see that happen. But I don't feel it would be appropriate for congress to demand that. It usurps the votes of his electorate.

    I feel censure is appropriate and perhaps he and other members of congress who behaved terribly last night should be censured and not allowed to attend future addresses to congress.

    I think there must be a more measure way of dealing with this.

    If my congressman had yelled out at Bush... I would not want congress to force him to resign but would completely support censuring and other actions being taken.

    Maybe we should send old Joe CT's stiletto and a copy of "Bushido, the Warrior's Code" and see if he'll do the REALLY honorable thing.

    Naaah, shame is so 19th century.

    I'm confused as to what you think a mop does in my metaphor.

    Joe Wilson IS the mop. He's the boob. He's paying a price even as we speak. I couldn't care less whether he resigns or not; and I don't think he SHOULD resign, because he represents his constituents, and probably told Obama what at least half of them think right now--decorum or none.

    Democrats who would have booed or jeered George W. Bush as he tried to lie to their faces would have been amply rewarded. And I daresay: If they had balls that big, they'd have impeached the goddamned fucking liar like he should have been.

    They would have been lionized for jeering the lies he spoke right to their faces and to the rest of the nation, even then. George W. Bush is NOT Obama, they were just both Presidents.

    I don't think it's subservience either - it's good manners. When the President speaks to both houses it's because he's been invited to their chamber to speak (the State of the Union, at least, requires that Congress extend an invitation to the President).

    Since when is it ever okay to invite someone to speak and then heckle them? It would be as if I invited you to my house for dinner and spent the whole meal calling you names. That's just rude and unbecoming of an individual who was elected to represent the citizens of his state. Wilson didn't just embarrass himself, but the People of South Carolina for whom he speaks.

    No, I didn't say the President lied, stupid. You did.

    I said what I said. Re-read it and maybe consider some remedial comprehension classes, while you're at it.

    I said some illegals are going to end up getting some care. Between ANY cracks you or anyone else can come up with to PREVENT them. The beauty of the free market is that if there's a demand, they'll find a way to achieve that demand--with bogus credentials, whatever.


    You, on the other hand, simply can't help yourself. Republican retard. You've omitted PLENTY in your little screeds here, but unlike some folks, I know how to read between the lines.

    Back you up...I wouldn't go anywhere near your smelly ass.

    His commented started with the word "No" actually.

    I totally agree with you, Libertine. Every company should be required to use the E-Verify system. Companies who hire these people in order to not pay required wages ARE exploiting them and forcing them into slave labor. Conservatives are guilty in exploiting undocumented labor. That's why you don't hear very many Republicans taking a stand against illegal immigration. Their big business constituents want the cheap labor.

    No mechanism?

    You're a crazy deather, aintcha?

    Go fuck yourself, bitch. You got nothin' in this debate. Just like Joe Wilson. I hope our secret Marxist totalitarian agenda makes you cry yourself to sleep every goddamn night.

    I'll bet you'll squeal with glee when you 'use my words against me' AGAIN...whatta fuckin' dope.

    There he is, Ladies and Gentlemen:

    The man with nothing but a keyboard, an opinion and a man of few words, too.

    Thank Koresh.

    I was thinking of the british PM's 'Question time' kind of model. Take a look at some of the youtube video for a taste. I think that's what these Executive-Legislative branch interactions should look like.

    If the President wants to make a speech to the nation, and we like to have Congress just there as props, that's a very strange convention. But that's the way its currently set up.

    This is all a waste of time. Republicans and Blue Dog politicians are spending their day debating alternate plans and strategizing about how to defeat progressive health care reform, and you guys are wasting your time worrying about one no-account little Congressman who had a mouth fart in public.

    I'm appalled. If this is progressive politics in action, we deserve whatever we get from our opponents.

    Boy, you're sure worried about those illegal immigrants.

    What will you do when they can't get in any more? When lettuce costs $50 a head because nobody is willing to pick it for less than $50 an hour?

    Your Know-Nothing anti-immigrant policies are nothing less than UN-American. If they want to come here...let them. Make it easy enough for them to come here so they DON'T have to sneak in.

    Ever consider that? Sure. Meanwhile, we have about fifteen more important issues to deal with than your xenophobia.

    This "anti-ILLEGAL-immigration whacko" is against all shades of ILLEGAL immigration. Please note that I said ILLEGAL. Come here legally, fine. ILLEGALLY, not fine.

    If it's good manners...then why do some people conclude that Joe Wilson needs to resign?

    For many reasons, I disagree with that statement by oleeb. Then again, what's the record of comments on TPM these days...?

    Heh, heh...

    Relax. This little flame thread has nothing to do with what will eventually happen in D.C.

    We most certainly deserve the best we can get. All of us. And that's what progressives have first and foremost, whether you 'object' or not.

    Shit...what blog ISN'T a complete waste of time...to SOMEONE?

    Okay, but who called for Congress to demand it? Not me. I suggest you and others need to read a bit more closely.

    You are an ignorant fool if you think the price of lettuce will be $50 without exploited illegal immigrants picking it. You want to change our laws to allow more legal immigration? Fine. Let's do it.

    Good then don't damn and demonize the illegals who are being enticed over the border just to trying to improve their lives. Everybody deserve to be treated with dignity. Illegals from south of the border aren't the cause of, and represent only a minute amount of, our problems. And if some of them get health care that they are not entitled to they are not the bad guys, nor should it be a reason to derail much needed health care reform. In fact I think with the money they are helping the economy generate they are entitled to it as much as everybody. I still believe in the integrity of our border, that illegals shouldn't have the all benefits of full citizenship and believe that every effort will be made to ensure that any health care reform will not include people not here legally.

    Welllll...the contrarian in me can't resist.

    Not all of us vote for Congresspersons because we 'expect leadership from them' or even good manners...

    I would have loved a single Democrat in Congress to be able to stop the debate about Iraq with a comment like Joe Wilson's. I doubt it would have worked...look at what happened to Cynthia McKinney.

    Stopping an agenda is sometimes the best way to negotiate. Being the Party of No is something I would love to be proud to say about the Democrats. But they never said 'No'; the voters had to do it for them. And even that wasn't enough to stop Bush. He had his way until the day he left town.

    Democrats have no right to complain about Republicans trying to stop their agenda without endangering their own attempts to do so on the other side, depending on the issue. Not only do I wish Democrats had even tried to stop Bush or verbally challenged him, 5,000 dead U.S. soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan wish they had, too. And all those dead brown people.

    What an excellent philosophical post you've written here. Great ending, too.

    Irony isn't only lost on conservatives, it would seem.

    What could I possibly say after that eloquent post. Good job. Your mother must be proud.

    Hey, Stupid 2:

    I remember when even George W. Bush floated the balloon to make it easier for foreigners to enter and work in this country. Ron Paul and Tom Tancredo, et al, shot it down in a heartbeat.


    The overreaction from your beloved anti-brown people's coalition was so extreme, even John McCain had to make a 180 degree turn on his own fairly progressive immigration policy. Arizona has a LOT of brown people from Mexico living there, yes, LEGALLY. And they vote.

    You're showing your true racist stripes every time you post. You'll probably never even realize it. You got nothin' except that corner you're not even looking at. The one you painted yourself into.

    Would you please point out the part in my posts where I "damn and demonize the illegals"?

    I think that is conjecture. I think that the Dems would have been the mops same as Wilson, and that is my conjecture. We're arguing theories, which is meaningless. Although I believe I have an experience point to make because this is what happened to Joe Wilson, I do not see that it would have been any different for Dems. The same argument would have been made, and probably by Joe Spector, too! "I've never seen this happen in my decades in Congress." The MSM would have eaten it up then as it is now. Afterall, the MSM was not calling the Bush Regime out, either.

    You're right on two counts:

    If his constituents want to be represented by an asshole, that's their right.

    He should be barred! I was thrown out of a bar once (no, really, it wasn't my fault) and not allowed back for six months. So bar him from the cafeteria, or the barbershop. Or make him go out and get the doughnuts for those committee meetings.

    But really I think the best punishment for Wilson or any of the other asshats is for the rest of us to just mock him, mercilessly. Jokes, t-shirts, bumper stickers. Go viral on his ass.

    Yeah, what Daddy-O said.

    What does any of your ranting have to do with my original post? Nothing. That's what you frothers do. You can't address the original point so you go into your knee-jerk rantings.

    Obama Lied Through Omission. Illegals will be able to access healthcare because there is no plan to verify eligibility. Those are the facts. Whether or not you or I think this is a good thing or a bad thing wasn't the point. If you think it is a good thing that exploited people will be able to get the healthcare they need, fine. That doesn't change the fact that Obama left out this point. It would have been better if he just came out and said it instead of being sneaky, which is how it looks.

    The point is that there is no means in the legislation to enforce it. Not even the clearly inadequate but nonetheless existing language in the Medicaid and Social security laws. And amendments to add such language were shot down by the sponsors of the bills now pending.

    You are right. I projected the congress should ask him to resign aspect of this. I apologize for the inference. I must have taken carried over something from another blog in this discussion.

    Unfortunately for South Carolina, this is one more instance of an elected official from there with too much time on his hands. Mark Sanford seems to think nothing he does should be labeled out of line. Wilson is just another one. Does that state really deserve those two?
    As for the shouting of "You lied" or whatever he shouted: Congressmen and Senators are supposed to receive a copy of the speech beforehand. Did he read it? Was this truly spontaneous? Dubious at best. Unfortunate he doesn't represent his constituency well. Most South Carolinians are very hospitable, decorous, well-mannered people. All this outrage from Limbaugh and Beck is not helpful especially to the Southern psyche. And it's spreading to the rest of the nation.
    Perhaps, this sad situation will be corrected in 2010.

    That's cool synch. You certainly are not the only one who read something else than what was there. I tried to be as clear as possible but guess I didn't succeed.

    IMHO, this is far more than simply just another political matter or a blunder by a white trash creep from the south whose stupidity will now produce political dividends for Democrats. What happened last night, what Wilson did, has never occured before in our history and for very good reason. It is simply and completely unacceptable. It is unacceptable for a racist Congressman, who has a history of vile racist statements, to heckle the President of the United States during a joint session of Congress and to get away with only issuing a psuedo apology for having an outburst while still claiming, in effect, the President is a liar when that is completely false. Like any other tea bagger out there might do, he allowed his racist hatred for the President to consume him and he behaved in a manner totally unbecoming a member of Congress. Will we allow these creeps to debase even a joint session of Congress as though it were a town hall meeting somewhere? I pray not.

    He did not heckle another member of the House or Senate. He heckled our nation's head of state. By so doing he heckled more than Barack Obama. He heckled our nation and our national dignity. I do not use the word disgrace lightly in this instance at all. Wilson's actions were profoundly disgraceful for us all. Through his action he has brought shame upon the nation and I believe that only be doing as I hav suggested can he even begin to adequately approach repairing the damage he has done.

    While I certainly have my complaints about the whorish nature of our elected officials in many respects and am not shy in saying so, I think it immensely important for the institutional standards of the Congress to remain strong and respected and that it is the people who must insist upon this more so than the politicians. Ours is a system of structural formality wherein the various branches are, of necessity, bound to respect the others(assuming law abiding participants populating and controlling the various branches unlike during the Bush years). That formality and decorum between and among the branches must prevail in order for our system to function.

    When a member of the House allows his racist mentality to prevail and, unable to contain himself or his racist emotions(as an adult ought to do let alone a member of the House of Representatives) and heckles the President of the United States during a joint session of Congress it is simply intolerable and must be treated as the extraordinary breach of decency that it is. This is why I believe citizens should be deluging Wilson with demands for a total and comprehensive apology to the nation and the President and then to follow it up with resignation as the only honorable thing to do upon having thoroughly disgraced us all.

    He may or may not resign as a result but that is not the point as much as it is to demonstrate not just to Wilson but to all those racist Republicans in Congress and out who have become so emboldened this year that such outrages will not be tolerated by the people of this country. They must understand clearly that their racist temper tantrums are not only unwelcome but rejected thoroughly by the vast majority of people in the United States of America. So whether or not he actually resigns really is not the point. The time has come for decent and honorable people to make their viewpoint clearly known to the racist scoundrels who have so debased our politics of late and to clearly delineate what is and is not going to be tolerated by the public in the context of our political culture.

    No member of Congress has ever done anything like this before. It must be made absolutely clear that the people of the nation demand a certain level of respect and propriety on the part of the members of the Congress when dealing with any President in a joint session. It must be made especially clear to the minority of angry white racists that the great majority of Americans not only disagree with them, but find their tactics and sentiments unacceptable and so offensive they will not be tolerated.

    I believe that there must be many who agree on this very important point given that Wilson's congressional website crashed by 10:00 a.m. this morning and still isn't back up yet as far as I know. There are reports that it is taking hours just to get a phone call through to his office.

    The legitimacy of all government rests upon the consent of the governed. The governed in this case need to make it known that Wilson's disgraceful conduct has not only dishonored our nation but that we withdraw our consent from such actions and find them illegitimate. That, far more than the disapproval of his colleagues, brings a powerful message to bear not only on Wilson, but all the racist creeps whose 9 month political temper tantrum threatens to derail the progress our nation desperately needs to make.

    Thanks Daddy-O. Every once in a while...

    Different institution, different traditions. Besides, the British Prime Minister is a member of the House of Commons. The President of the United States is not a member of Congress. That makes a difference to the protocol, too. The executive and legislative branches are co-equals, but they are separate, and that requires some degree of formal respect if it is to work.

    Disagree. I think he should be formally censured. Democrats need to make it clear that this kind of behavior is not OK. If they don't, it's just going to continue to escalate, and God knows where it will end up before it stops.

    I wonder how Wilson would feel, if at the burial of his mother, wife, child, etc., Rev. Fred Phelps and his minions stood there screaming "god hates fags."

    Agreed. Even if he was actually taking notes (and I don't for a minute believe that's what he was doing), there was no reason he should have needed to do so -- he had access to an advance copy of the speech. Not to mention that House rules prohibit the use of electronic devices on the floor. If he wants to take notes, he can use a pencil and a pad of paper.

    No, texting while Obama was speaking was extremely rude, and just goes to show how right Van Jones was to call Republicans assholes.

    No. Democrats oppose draconian measures to try to assure that absolutely not even one illegal immigrant manages to squeeze through because such measures turn up very few actual illegals and prevent a far greater number of otherwise eligible citizens from receiving benefits just because they have difficulty providing the proper documentation.

    For my own part, I'd far rather see illegals able to obtain affordable health care than to have to use emergency care which only ends up making things more expensive for everyone. Not to mention that if swine flu breaks out in a community of illegals, I'd far rather see it treated promptly than spread to the larger community.

    At least some of the so-called "safeguards" that were put into the Medicare to keep illegals out of the system have been dropped because they did more harm than good.

    Joe Wilson is perfectly free to disagree with the President's opinion as to whether the bill as proposed would accrue benefits to illegal aliens.

    Just because Wilson disagrees with the President does not make the President a liar. And it certainly does not give him the right to use such a shocking breach of protocol to get his little 15 minutes of fame.

    They only do that during question time and as noted By others, the PM is a member of Parliament and only the head of government, not the head of state. They don't heckle the Queen when she gives the Speech From the Throne.

    In the military, they say "salute the uniform, not the man." They're saying that these seemingly silly bits of ceremonial etiquette are part of the glue that hold institutions together from one generation to the next. And they're saying that conforming to these standards is a way of showing and reinforcing our common fealty and fidelity to things that are bigger than individuals and the passions of the moment.

    Those are precisely the things the GOP has lost these last 15 years.

    The Brits can speak English in the correct manner, virtually all of what you see in PM Questions is allowable debate in our system. The problem lies with the fact that few of our Congresspeople have anything close to a command of the English language.

    Yeah, but they want the discussion to be the way they want it to be, I've already been lectured by DanK over and over again.

    Really? This is the first day I became aware of your existence. I'll have to review.

    But I hope your cry for help went well today.

    Yup, last night was not the way to do it, but personally, I think the whole merger of Head of Government and Head of State in the Presidency is a serious weakness. Far better to have him come to Congress AS Head of Government, argue his case, and take his heckling. Better than that, should be a way he can come in and debate. He'd have to rally those pathetic Blue Dogs daily.

    When he wants to be Head of State, let him put a special hat on. Maybe one with a twirly thing. And he should always be preceeded by people blowing kazoos.

    As you van probably guess, I'm not much on the tradition and authority thing. But if you GOTTA have 'em, I'm happy to support twirly hats and kazoos.

    So the reaction by the right was EXACTLY as I said, he's a hero, like I said, and all your super-smug, how-could-you-be-so-totally-stupid-as-to-not-agree-with-my-wrong-ass-guessing didn't work out too well.

    LOL! "Love me, Daddy!" ;-)

    And perhaps I, or Barack Obama, agree. But that's not what Barack Obama said. He made a commitment that we -would- keep the illegals out of the system! And if he was referring to any proposal so far, he was lying.

    That said, the Senate Finance Committee seems to be looking into this now.

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