barefooted's picture

    Danger In Donald's Name

    Donald Trump is becoming a dangerous leader of an ignorant, angry base of people who don't give a damn about politics. They aren't looking for ways to improve our economy, policies to help the middle class or the wealthy, taxes up or down, nor do they care about wars in general - their focus is clearly on nationalism with a very white bent. "Immigration" means keeping non-whites out, "unemployment" means a Mexican took your job. "Poor" equals black and dangerous, "religion" means Christian.

    He's not a joke any more. There are people who were once -eventually- driven underground that are back with a deep sigh of relief because they have found a new Messiah. He will do or say anything; we all know that. But did we know he'd really say anything? No matter what?

    It's time to treat this like an intervention before it goes any farther. The country is at stake. There's an ugly rumbling coming from our stomach, and if we don't stop it now we're looking at an uprising of the same bigoted racism we've spent too many years beating down.


    I can't shake the feeling that he cause of this is the failure of our mainstream politics.

    The media treats Trump as a major news event. He gave a speech yesterday. I happened to be channel surfing at the time. MSNBC broke into one of it's Go Directly to Jail shows to  broadcast  the speech. They would never do this for Hillary or Bernie or even President Obama.

    Very true.  He is their creation, after all.

    The media is driven by the ratings, which are enhanced by their saturated coverage. But it's much like blaming a grocery store rag for writing ambiguous lies while they're selling millions of copies - eventually we, as consumers, have to take some responsibility. Especially in a presidential campaign.

    Which kind of brings me back to my earlier point.  A lot of the criticism of Trump's success has turned into criticism of his supporters.  We're basically accusing them of being frivolous and unserious for supporting the guy. Worse, the "have to say it about both sides" branch of the media tars Sanders supporters on the left the same way.  But I do think it's hard to get mad at people for supporting candidates like Trump, who break rules of propriety, because they have been so poorly rewarded in the past for supporting "proper" candidates.

    They asked for the impossible. They voted for politicians who lied to them and promised the impossible. The politicians didn't deliver because it was impossible. Now they're angry and supporting a candidate who lies to them and promises the impossible, but angrily. They gorged themselves on the nonsense from Limbaugh and faux "news"  If the msm was more honest they would have hated it even more and fled more quickly to faux. I find it hard to work up any sympathy for them.

    We're basically accusing them of being frivolous and unserious for supporting the guy.

    I'm not. I think they're very serious, at least his constant core. I think they are hearing his call quite clearly, and won't fluctuate because he's feeding their desires. And they are feeding his. If anything, he's the one who is frivolous and unserious about the "movement" he is instigating.

    I think he started all of this as a marketing ploy and a way to stoke the embers of his celebrity. I wonder if the nomination or the White House, aren't the car chased by the dog who has no plans for what to do if he catches it.

    Mainstream politics fails because our mainstream media is a worthless joke....I stopped watching TV News years ago....2 MSM News site headlines noon Sunday:

    CNN Breaking News Carson: No Muslim President

    CNN sub headlines: Emmy Awards, Fioriolona polls, VW President 'Sorry', Crickets swarm in Texas, Maher clock looked like bomb.....

    CBS Breaking News: HILLARY: I am a Real Person

    CBS sub headlines: Gym coach accused of child molestation found dead, Fionarolarona up Donald down polls, church shooting, Everest nightmare, Kerry says something on refugees...

    MSM to Viewers: Discuss amongst yourselves:

    No Muslim President? Real of Not Real?

    Bomb looked like clock? Real or not Real?

    Hillary a person? - Real or Not Real?

    Fiolaroney surge? Real or Not Real?

    and Texas crickets...Really weird or Just Texas?...

    BREAKING! Radical Islamic Cricket Camps Discovered In Texas -- Hillary Declares She's Not A Clock -- Ben Carson Says NO To Muslim VW's -- Trump Demands Emmy Produce Birth Certificate.


    I think it's time we go back to always calling Trump what Spy magazine started calling him back in 1988:  A short-fingered Vulgarian.  For example, "The leading Republican Presidential candidate is the short-fingered Vulgarian, Donald Trump."  It feels good and the beauty part is, it drove Trump crazy.

    I had no idea Mr. Smith but that was the best article!  I would just alter it slightly, Short-fingered Orange Vulgarian Donald Trump.

    Anyone who doesn't take this clown seriously, does so at their own peril. I want to believe that it would be impossible for him to win the nomination, but I'm not so sure.

    When we saw the field, I initially thought the Dems had this one in the bag.

    Then I spoke to an intelligent, thoughtful person (an independent) who I've know for a long time the other day who told me that if it came down to it, they would vote for Trump, before they'd vote for Hillary. I'm pretty sure I swallowed my teeth.

    There are seriously pissed off people that would vote for ANYONE who isn't a politician.

    A lot of them.

    And there is no reasoning with these people. They are beyond logic.

    There is not a single person on the repub side running so far that doesn't scare me, but the top 3 (Trump, Fiorina, and Carson) scare me the most. I know there is still a ot of time, but this looking way too real to me. It's going to be a VERY long election period, and I suspect I will have chewed my fingers to the bone by the time we know the results.

    I agree stilli. No matter how much I think something is likely or what the polling shows it's always a nail biter until the end. Especially this election as this is probably the one that changes the Supreme Court from republican to democrat if we win. And also, as you pointed out, the republicans are more crazy than ever this year.

    What is starting to surface is that there is a large resistance to electing Clinton. One of the biggest reasons is they see her sitting in the left hand pocket of the oligarchy that runs Washington. They see nothing but years of corruption and Washington grifters on the take.  

    This is going to be an anti establishment wave election. 

    There was a political cartoon on my FB last night that showed this point.  Hillary was marching down the left side of the road carrying a DNC flag and Bush was marching down the right side of the road carrying a RNC flag.  No one was following them.  On the left side of the road on the side walk was Bernie with a love sign leading a long line of people as far as the eye could see.  On the right side of the road's side walk, Trump was leading with a hate sign a short line of people.

    I don't think the DNC has come to grips with any of this.  

    I suppose one could say there is a large resistance to electing Clinton. Of course there's a much larger resistance to electing Webb or Chaffee or O'Malley. And there's a somewhat larger resistance to electing Sanders. So another way to put it is most democrats prefer Clinton to be the nominee. Your political cartoon might be what you wish, it might even turn out to be true at some future date, but the reality right now is Hillary is ahead in virtually all the polls.

    but the reality right now is Hillary is ahead in virtually all the polls

    Yes, this. 

    My, this slur has gone on for 15 years. She was going to be the controlling oligarch in New York but instead she was a cooperative junior senator. She was Bill term #3 in 2008 so instead the wise crowd gave it to Obama (he wasn't influenced by Goldman Sachs and Citibank, no). Besides being a racist she was going to destroy the party with PUMAs, by trying to be VP, even as Secretary of State. Except she proved to be cooperative and quiet. But still somehow she's the voice of the oligarchy. You could pug her in an attic and she'd get the same charge. Ted Kennedy? His family arranged for a representative to step down so he could have a seat in Mass. The next generation of Kennedys from New York were again propped up. But Hillary's the oligarch, not Joe or Jack or Bobby Jr or the cousin in Rhode Island... Not the Daleys, not the Cuomos, not the Bayhs, not Jerry Brown and father. Not the other sons and daughters who got a lift into cherry political seat. Meanwhile, who's paying for any other senator from a real state? Joe Biden's been in the pocket of insurance his entire career but he's not part of the oligarchy. It's crap. It's only Clinton rules, the I hate Hillary for any reason crowd. And they hate Bill as well. They're still running against his presidency, aiding Gingrich from the left and pushing the Whitewater bit and complaining that Gore's robotic and not liberal enough. Screw 'em


    You seem to be growing more confused, HRC wields no power over the economy or politics she is merely being rewarded, financially, for her service to the Oligarchs and positioned to be of further service to her Masters just as Slick Willy was. I don't know about other people but i despise her for what she 'is' and what she 'does' and has done along with whom she represents, the Oligarchs and business interests not anyone else. This is true for most if not all of our Political Parasite Class and has been true for most of our history.

    These pathetic attempts to rehabilitate a  parasite politician such as HRC are typical LOTE bottom of the barrel scraping when the only real Liberal meme that works is that only the Dems can protect you from the more evil Repugs and that lie is not working so well anymore.

    Explain how shes been Of more service to the oligarchs than Obama and Biden or most of the Democrats. Shes been out of office 2 years, for 6 years mostly did what Obama told her to, and for 8 years was one of the most liberal senators. Some kind of projection or role-playing going on. This is not game of thrones.

    HRC has spent the last two years collecting her compensation and prepayments from the PTB and preparing to move on up the parasite ladder of advancement although I think she reached her Peter Principle level of incompetence at her last position.

    She got the bum's rush in '08 when Obama, a better servant of the status quo sparked enthusiasm among the rubes  but now she may get the Booby prize of designated loser in this selection extravaganza. 65 years of presidential election history and the Supreme Court have shown that a Republican will be our next president.

    Your MO is to say that everything anyone does is bad. There is no hope and their are no solutions. People have fought for worker's rights and wages, the vote, etc. Corporations push back against change. Because there is pushback and you are not willing to fight, you tell everybody to give up hope. Since you have have hope, it is pointless to try to convince that Bernie, Hillary, or anyone else is the best option. Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X didn't solve the race problems, oh the despair.

    Your depressive snake oil is no different than the folks who will tell you that we are at the end times from a Biblical standpoint because there is poverty and wars. The end times argument was made right after Jesus died. The end time argument was made in every subsequent era and continues today. The one guy who got end times right was an octogenarian who got his followers to give up their worldly goods because the end times were coming. He got the end times date wrong and left his followers alive and destitute. The octogenarian reset the end times date. This time he was closer to the truth because the world came to an end for him. He died. 

    There have always been people sitting on the sidelines yelling that there is no hope. Some of these people are secular and some of these people are religious. The take home message is that there is no hope for them and it is the end times for them. Come back in twenty to thirty years and they will still say that the world is not perfect, and in all likelihood there will still be work to do. Welcome to the human condition.

    You have no solutions. You have no hope. You want the rest of us to lower ourselves to your level of depression, but that will never happen. For you nothing is possible. For the rest of us, wage increases and fighting for voting rights and a host of other issues is one of the reasons for being alive. You have lost hope.The rest of us still have hope.

    Sanders insures and you remain depressed. The Pope inspires and you remain depressed. You will remain the sideline critic. Critics are good at pointing out suggested flaws. Critics are not know for actually building anything of consequence. You are a great critic.

    I'm sorry, rm i seem to have nearly driven you to tears by trying to wean you off that Hopium pipe. That stuff is addictive and leaves you emotional and vulnerable when it continually fails to make your illusions reality.

    Cold harsh reality tells me that there are no solutions and certainly no political or Glorious Leader solutions that have any chance of stopping our Death Cult civilization's downfall. The best people can do now is to prepare themselves, their families and friends for the collapse and hope that improves their chance for survival.

    Some of the BLM people, but not Campaign Zero, seem to be teaching and learning the skills necessary for autonomy and self rule that will be critical in the coming years, i wish them success.

    What necessary skills are you learning and teaching to your family and friends to survive the collapse? Autonomy and self-rule are not behaviors attained on the fly, so the downfall of civilization seems, by definition, to require preparation. What's yours?

    The odds for my surviving are quite low but i do have a brother in Utah where many people are well prepared for any eventuality and i may join him to improve my chances. Young people are the most important group who need to survive, food, shelter and security provided, or at least possessing the skills and tools to provide, mostly by themselves not totally dependent on others will greatly improve their chances.

    All this doomsday talk is silly. Everyone knows the whole modern world collapsed 15 years ago. Y2k destroyed all the computers just as all the books predicted. All the stock markets world wide stopped working, trains stopped, every car with a computer chip stopped, pace makers stopped and millions of people died of heart attacks, gas companies stopped delivering gas to millions of houses in the north and millions of people froze to death.

    If the wasn't bad enough just 3 years ago whatever was left of the human race was destroyed the Mayan apocalypse at the end of the 13th b'ak'tun. The Earth would be was destroyed by an asteroid, Nibiru, or some other interplanetary object; an alien invasion; or a supernova.

    You must be having some schizoid episode that you forgot the apocalypse 15 years ago and the second apocalypse just 3 years ago. You're transferring memories you can't deal with into some future apocalypse. 

    Reading this list might help you regain your grasp on reality.

    You left out Xenu. Intergalactic highway coming soon as well - it's all there in the planning office.

    This is the problem when someone talks honestly about our present reality, it is frightening and much easier to scoff and react in emotionally immature ways. Denial is as addictive as Hopium but you are correct that our economic collapse began soon after Y2k with the dotcom bubble bursting showing clearly that the pseudo prosperity of the Clinton years was hollow and an illusion built on unsustainable debt and speculation. The visible economy was pumped up to appear to be working until the bottom fell out in '08 leaving us in what appears to be a Perpetual Recession with millions of never ot be needed again surplus workers, but the markets are booming again and the economic numbers are fabricated to look good so let's party!

    Predicting a timetable for the already progressing collapse is probably already been done by those in power who plan to maintain their positions and the survival of their families and friends so I'll leave that 'silly' task to them.

    I have little doubt that you were talking "honestly about our present reality" in 1999. I've little doubt that you were quoting all the best sellers about the eminent collapse of Y2K. I don't know you well enough to know if you only feed on psuedoscience like y2k or if you also embrace spritualism like the 11-11 movement or the Mayan calendar. It's my experience, limited and anecdotal, that those who embrace apocalyptic movements are having trouble fitting into the current system. It's not working for them and they want to see it torn down. Confirmation bias. Most of them have no grasp of what the failure of the system would mean and have fantasy beliefs about how easy it would be for them to survive with minimal preparations.

    There's many paths going forward. Destruction is possible but the solutions to our problems exist and that's another possible scenario. There are many scenarios between massive destruction to medium destruction to minor annoyances with the primary problems solved. You only see one possibility, apocalypse. It doesn't matter how many times the apocalyptic fantasies don't pan out, the next one is sure to be the real apocalypse. "That stuff is addictive and leaves you emotional and vulnerable when it continually fails to make your illusions reality."

    You're the only one projecting religious apocalypse fantasies  and posing as a mind reader, i"ve never mentioned Y2k and after working for Intel it seemed a bit overblown although it did show just how completely dependent we are on our modern systems.

    I don't know what path the collapse will take but if Amerikans cut their power use by half and China moved to a no growth program there might be a path for a future that saves the biosphere and a sustainable human population but those wishes are pure fantasy.

    The ideal scenario would be a planned dismantling of industrial civilization and a humane reduction of population but you won't see that platform in any presidential campaign, it's drill baby drill or greenwash the problem away.


    Y2k was a "bit overblown?" Try y2k was totally fucking delusional. After all that hype nothing, absolutely nothing happened. All it showed was that Barnum was right, there is a sucker born every minute.

    I spent 1999 trying, unsuccessfully, to convince many of my friends that 80% of the books fear mongering y2k for profit was bull shit and the 20% that might occur was unlikely but if it did it would be at most a short term annoyance.

    As I said I don't know you but with all your apocalyptic posts I"m making a reasonable hypothesis. When y2k hysteria was happening were you debunking or fear mongering?

    The reason people scoff is because there have been worst conditions in the past. 

    Curious how Peter (not verified) rarely if ever mentions the late Republican administration in his historical recollections.

    a Perpetual Recession with millions of never ot be needed again surplus workers,

    There are no surplus workers. There's only a lack of will to hire them to do the much needed long delayed work. There's millions of miles of water pipes, gas and oil pipelines, sewage pipes, bridges, roads etc. long past their replacement date. The American Society of Civil Engineers gives an annual report on US infrastructure and for years it's been a D. That doesn't include upgrading our electricity networks to handle new power sources or installing those sources. It doesn't include upgrading our internet. The US is on the low end internet speeds of developed nations. There is so much work that needs to be done that if we began doing it there wouldn't be enough workers.

    I don't think you truly see the problems we face so it's not a surprise you can't see the solutions.

    You don't seem to comprehend the actual level of unemployment or underemployment in the US but government lies are crafted to hide the actual near 23% unemployment rate. The jobs you list are great if you are young, fit, qualified and can handle hot dangerous work but they would still only employ a few million people at most and when done they would be laid off just as i was after every construction job I worked on.

    This still leaves tens of millions of surplus workers young and old, qualified and unqualified permanently without steady employment and the permanent jobs they need will never return. Even the high tech companies are dumping thousands of workers to protect their profits and I recently read that the giant Intel fabs here in NM will close laying off thousands more workers and skilled staff. This will be devastating to our local economy which has grown depended on Intel for the last 35 years.

    You can build all the Bridges to Nowhere you want and many people will still have nowhere to go to look for work.

    Silly, you're just showing how ignorant you are.. These aren't bridges to nowhere. These are bridges that are used by millions, water, sewage, gas and oil lines in thousands of cities, in every state in the US. This doesn't even account for the electric network upgrades that will be needed if we vastly increase the number of solar panels and wind turbines. It doesn't include the installation of roof top solar or industrial solar farms. The need is so great mostly due to delayed repairs that this work could go on for decades. You're not even considering the effect of all that infrastructure spending as it flows through the economy. It will create demand for goods and services that will help to employ those unable to do more physically demanding work.

    But yeah, I know. Nothing can be done. I's hopeless. There are no solutions to the problems we face. The only thing to do is run to the wilderness, stockpile guns and canned goods, learn survival skills, and hunker down and wait for the apocalypse. /shrug what ever.

    Neither you or I know what the unemployment rate is though all the experts agree that the government figures underestimate the number. But no expert analysis I've seen suggests a number as high as 23%. 10 to 15 is likely closer to the actual rate. Underemployment is a problem but including everyone who is working part time who wishes to work full time as unemployed skews the figures as much or more than the government figures. It's true that we will need to do something about outsourcing.  That's not a critique of my post it's a diversion. There are dozens of problems that need to be addressed. I'm posting a comment, not writing a book.


    Solar and wind power is something I've supported but its instillation produces mostly low wage labor jobs, its production is mostly in China and elsewhere outside the US so not many good jobs there either.

    It will eventually reduce pollution somewhat but it pollutes heavily during production and the materials needed will require huge new mining and manufacturing causing more destruction mostly outside the US.

    The most depressing fact about solar/wind is that its projected growth won't even cover projected increased demand for power in the next few decades, which means it will not replace any of the base demand supplied from burning fossil fuels. This means that carbon emissions will continue to increase for decades although at a somewhat reduced rate.  The planet will continue to warm, the oceans will continue to acidify and the polar ice will melt.

    You seem to be comfortable being a consumer, eating your seed stocks and trusting in leaders to protect you  so I'll end with, Good Luck.

    I'm not driven to tears but to laughter. You think these are bad times with no hope? You would have wilted in slavery, the backlash to Reconstruction, the Jim Crow Era, the the Civl Rights era. You would have been preaching no hope when the robber barons sent thugs to beat workers asking for fair treatment. You are depressed by current circumstances. The folks who stood on the sidelines in the past also yelled about their being no hope and no solutions. No the tears you see are not sadness but brought on by your woe is me comedy routine.

    Conventional Wisdom About Clean Energy Is Still Way Out of Date

    ..The report observes that "the history of energy scenarios is full of similar projections for renewable energy that proved too low by a factor of 10, or were achieved a decade earlier than expected." For example, the International Energy Agency's 2000 estimate for wind power in 2010 was 34 gigawatts, while the actual level was 200 gigawatts...In his personal observations at the end of the report, Martinot says that the prospects are excellent for the world to be 80 percent to 90 percent fueled by renewable energy by 2040-2050.

    Frank Rich posits that Trump may be good for democracy ... though I'm not sure he manages to convince himself. He does put forth an entertaining read with a slightly different spin.

    I got to this in the Frank Rich column:

    posturings of both the Republicans and the Democrats and the foolishness and obsolescence of much of the political culture they share

    My both siderism detector went into the red zone.

    Both Siderism is uniformly everywhere. It's like the Beltway's own iridium layer.

    It's continued existence is why it is impossible to have a reasonable debate about anything ever.

    It's constant maintenance is our media elite's prime directive.

    ... for 40 years it has been possible to make a living regurgitating one lie after another about Liberals in order to fill in the missing pieces in every wingnut's paint-by-numbers Red Dawn dream.

    Conservatives have spent a generation wrecking everything they touched, but on the marketing front they and their mainstream media enablers have been absolutely united and disciplined in selling Both Siderism every day and in every venue.....And no forward progress can be made until it is destroyed.


    Paul Krugman, The Crazy Party:

    In recent months, the G.O.P. seems to have transitioned from being the stupid party to being the crazy party....this story is all about the G.O.P. First came the southern strategy, in which the Republican elite cynically exploited racial backlash to promote economic goals, mainly low taxes for rich people and deregulation. Over time, this gradually morphed into what we might call the crazy strategy, in which the elite turned to exploiting the paranoia that has always been a factor in American politics — Hillary killed Vince Foster! Obama was born in Kenya! Death panels! — to promote the same goals.

    But now we’re in a third stage, where the elite has lost control of the Frankenstein-like monster it created.

    No Frank Rich, the political culture that brought us Donald Trump is a culture that has been carefully created, funded and exploited by the Republican Party for almost 40 years.

    Both sides didn't do it.

    peter posted:

    Solar and wind power is something I've supported but its instillation produces mostly low wage labor jobs, its production is mostly in China and elsewhere outside the US so not many good jobs there either.

    Sure China is dominating the solar panel market but that's mostly due to China dumping government subsidized panels in the US. It doesn't have to be that way. In fact that's already beginning to change.

    the United States Commerce Department took another step in that direction, finding that Chinese solar companies had dumped their products on the American market at below cost, and imposing duties of 10.74 percent to 55.49 percent. The ruling follows a separate decision in June that ruled that Chinese solar panel manufacturers had benefited from unfair government subsidies and that imposed steep duties of about 19 percent to 35 percent.

    The most depressing fact about solar/wind is that its projected growth won't even cover projected increased demand for power in the next few decades, which means it will not replace any of the base demand supplied from burning fossil fuels.

    That's not a depressing fact about solar/wind. That's a depressing fact about lack of government initiative. Both Sanders and Hillary have set targets well beyond projected growth. Still not enough imo but a good first step. Numerous scientists from Stanford and MIT have put out comprehensive plans to get all our energy needs from renewables. These plans include projected growth. The Solutions Project has state by state plans. The solutions are there, just the will to do it is lacking.

    Climate change is just one more intractable issue that one side will eventually win. More and more democrats and even some republicans are pushing for action. Eventually we'll likely win and change could come quick if we do. But you're partly right, it could come too late. That worse case scenario is all you talk about but is by no means the only possible scenario.

    You seem to be comfortable being a consumer, eating your seed stocks and trusting in leaders to protect you  so I'll end with, Good Luck.

    You don't know me at all and you couldn't be more wrong. I live off the grid with only solar for power. I eat a lot of meat and my 55 lb dog eats nothing but meat. I get 60% of that meat from hunting. I've been studying edible and  medicinal wild plants since I was 10 years old. I like to garden and some years I've grown all my food. I've played around with heirloom seeds and collected for next years planting. I don't do that every year as it's a lot of hard work and I don't think the apocalypse is nigh. I'm not a survivalist, I'm just doing things I enjoy.

    What I'm not doing is throwing my hands in the air in surrender and giving up hope. The solutions are there. For all it's problems it's a pretty cool world we've created. Even if the odds are only 50/50 that we'll succeed in spurring the government to action it's worth the fight.

    Relying on  Leaders and technology to save civilization is a fools errand, technology created the problems and leaders led the charge. No one is even talking about the massive reductions in energy use and consumption that is necessary to even slow Global Warming. All they offer is corporate solutions that may be profitable but will only allow for more consumption, growth and degradation of the biosphere. We are already seeing what 'renewable sources' means  to the Capitalist greenwashers, more industrial scale extraction, forest destruction and exploitation so affluent consumers can justify their excesses.

    My presumption about your consumption exposed the contradiction of your position on the coming collapse. You seem to actually be a gun toting Prepper already somewhat isolated from the systems that will fail. I grew up on an organic homested where we produced most of the food for eight people and i wish i had that independence now.

    There was a discussion, on another site, about the Paleolithic diet that you seem to enjoy and how it should be used widely among Native Americans to remedy the effects of the Anglo diet. A little simple math showed that if the 35,000 Pueblo people in NM adopted this diet that within a very few years there would be no deer, elk, or  antelope alive in our state and Ted Turner's bison  herds would be extinct. Even small populations require huge amounts of resources daily and our 7 Billion population is eating the planet.

    This is another example of your apocalyptic mindset. Technology created both solutions and problems. It made things better and worse. Leaders have solved problems and created them. You see only the problems created, but overall leaders and technology have made the world a better place. I don't have time to list all the details and changes but compare life today with life 100 or 200 or 300 years ago. Life expectancy, ease of life, comfort, equality and freedom have all increased.

    30 years ago the peak oil crowd and the survivalists were right. Renewables could not replace fossil fuels. But the tech has improved, solar panel output has increased dramatically and while we'll eventually reach a point of diminishing returns most scientists in the field think  there are still improvements to come. You're stuck in the past with your armageddon philosophy.

    Look I know I eat more meat than is healthy but I hate to cook and meat is easy. I wasn't suggesting everyone could or should live like I do. I was just responding to your erroneous idea that I am a consumer eating my seed stock etc.

    I'm not a prepper. I think you're likely wrong about the "coming collapse." so what would I prep for? Like Obama with his "clinging to guns and religion" speech it appears you just don't understand what it's like to grow up in a rural community. I simply grew up in the country hiking around eating wild berries and nuts and as a child I got interested in edible wild plants. My dad bought me Stalking the Wild Asparagas by Gibbons and got me started. I went from edible wilds to botany and plant identification to medicinal wilds. Everybody hunted a bit where I grew up and none of them were preppers. Most everybody had a gun. I hunt a lot now simply because I'm in a position to do so. My job of the last 5 years has me a bit isolated but before that I lived in Gainesville FL. Life changes and I'm not tied to any path.

    But you know, everyone doesn't have to live like me. The earth produces more than enough food for seven billion people. We discard vast quantities because food is so plentiful and cheap. Hunger is a problem of distribution and politics. It's another problem we could solve if we had the political will to do so. imo population is too large for what I consider a joyful existence and which is fair to the other species we share the planer with and I'd prefer we began to confront that problem before we exceed the carrying capacity of the earth. But right now we can easily and sustainably feed 7 billion people.

    i wonder where you get the idea that the earth produces our food, industrial agriculture produces our food with massive injections of oil, natural gas and chemicals with the earth abused basically to prop up the plants and supply trace nutrients. Without that massive industrial technology and inputs  there wouldn't be the 13Billion bushels of corn floating down the Mississippi river each year along with megatons of eroded soils and fertilizer that expands the dead zone in the Gulf every year. Most of our corn is used to feed meat animals and as an industrial feedstock to produce ethanol and sweetener.


    The demand for alternate fuels is accelerating the destruction of of the forests, not reducing it, in the Amazon and Asia along with the growing demand for more meat in China and other developing countries. Africa is the latest target for re-colonization and massive expansion of industrial agriculture displacing local sustainable farmers in the way of progress and exports to the hungry mouths in China, Europe and elsewhere.

    You may be far enough north in Florida and high enough to avoid the need for a houseboat but a swamp boat might be a good investment.



    This started as a short comment about "Perpetual Recession with millions of never ot be needed again surplus workers." I think that's been thoroughly discussed as has many of the side issues. TYes the loss of top soil on factory farms is a problem and erosion washing chemicals into the gulf is a problem and the massive production of corn syrup is a problem. There's much I could say about these and many other issue we face as a nation and a world but it was never my intention to have an endless discussion on every problem that exists. Books have been written on these subjects as well as numerous articles on many web sites.It isn't my intention to write a book. So I'm going to let this go.

    Ocean and Peter - since we're apparently on a new subject, I'm curious what you each think of the Global Seed Vault. Peter, I think it's a good indication that government leaders are not ignoring the "apocalyptic" scenario. Nor is the diversity of culture and ethnicity being overlooked. Unfortunately, it's recently had its first withdrawal due to the conflict in Syria. But it's also a sign of hope; the unshakable belief that life will go on for all of us, no matter what. Together.

    Ocean - really? You only feed your dog meat? At least it sounds like you supplement your diet somewhat ... do you think his basic digestion needs are less complex?

    Ok, you got me. These posts were getting so long I exaggerated a bit. Kaida has a high quality dry food out constantly that she eats as much as she wants. Once a day i give her a bowl of meat. I try to get kidney or liver in regularly. Fish occasionally. I'd estimate 85% to 90% of her diet is meat. For brevity's sake I didn't get into the details. I should have said almost only meat. My bad.

    If you start giving a dog sufficient daily quantities of meat you'll quickly learn how much they hate dry food. Dogs survive quite well on a mostly meat diet and are much happier. Kaida is 11 and has so much energy many people think she's a puppy. She's never had health problems and has only vomited twice in her life. I think she'll live to a healthy old age but if she loses a year or two she was much happier for the years she lived. I have that same attitude about myself. A few less years lived happily is better than less happiness and more years. That's why I don't deprive myself of creme filled chocolate topped eclairs.

    I just said I eat a lot of meat, too much really.  I didn't say I didn't eat vegetables, beans,  grains, nuts, or fruit. When I lived with women we cooked together and I ate better. But I'm alone now and I hate to cook.

    I think the seed vaults are great but less for apocalyptic reasons than for the loss of biodiversity. When I garden I always buy some heirloom seeds to support those who maintain that biodiversity. The apocalyptic scenario peter pushes isn't impossible but there are other scenarios and I just don't think apocalypse is that close or that likely. Who knows, a decade or two I might change my mind. Especially if republicans win the presidency or a democratic president can't make some serious progress on climate change.

    I don't think of the vault as an example of planning for an apocalypse; more a means of basic proactive maintenance.

    Your diet is your own business, and I'm very glad that your dog is healthy and happy. I am mildly curious about your assertion that you prefer eating meat because you don't like to cook. Especially when combined with the statement that you hunt much of your meat. Just seems like cooking anything would be easier than that! Totally with you on the eclairs, though.

    I hunt mainly for quality I couldn't afford. Free range drug free organic meat.

    We need to do more to protect our biodiversity but there is some small movement in that direction. Many local libraries are setting up seed libraries where you can get heirloom seeds. At the end of the season you're supposed to return a few times more than you borrowed. Often the library has classes on how to properly collect the seeds. The Tucson library has several hundred varieties.

    Also hybrid seeds aren't as bad as many think. It's not like you can't collect and replant the seeds. It's just that they won't breed true. If there was a collapse and people couldn't order seeds they could still collect and replant from the hybrids.  If you planted a collected hybrid tomato seed you'd likely get a smaller tomato but it'd be just as edible and it might even be tastier. Or a slightly smaller ear of corn maybe not quite as sweet.

    Too long to get in here, but I think we've rather established that alternative non-fossil energy from wind to solar to nuclear (including possibly some kind of safer liquid thorium) to other will make up most of our energy use in 50 years. So the question is really whether that's fast enough - whether we get 1) the too late, closed loop runaway eco apocalypse that Hanson is predicting or 2) several decades of eco catastrophes and mass disruption or 3) a less dramatic adjustment. PS just noticed that NCD addressed this above with charts and studies and 8x12 glossies PPS 2nd thing to consider is what cheap and easily mobile renrwable nergy means for access to clean water - moving it and cleaning it - in terms of disease and agriculture.

    We're closer to a shot at #3 than ever before, but #2 still appears, sadly, to be our current trajectory. That's part of the frustration when too many who can help make the difference find it easier to accept it as inevitable - preferring instead to place blame. Nonetheless, the movement away from fossil fuels is unstoppable, and will continue in spite of them. It's a new - smarter - world.

    I agree. There are some positive signs too.For example it's not just that the Koch Brothers are being demonized over Citizen's United. It's also that the oil billionaire Koch brothers are being demonized.

    The Koch brothers thrive on being demonized by Liberals just as Bill Gates and Warren Buffet thrive on being idolized by them. Together they have the same goals Buffet is making millions with his exploding oil trains while Gates is penetrating Africa for his friends at Monsanto.

    They all represent their class well playing the opposing sides of the Janus face that allows the rubes to believe there are differences they can use to improve their lot.

    So Gates pledge to donate half his fortune to charity and the commitment of billions by Buffett are shams?

    Modern philanthropy appears wonderful on its surface but when you look below the PR it is designed to perpetuate the powerful and promote more Capitalist penetration. Gates' charity is a telling example with his drive for corporate control of education and multinational penetration of Africa.

    Pierre Omidyar founder of ebay and leading philanthropist is more honest about his giving, his charity works are required to turn a profit for the investors in these enterprises. Besides helping overthrow targeted governments his PayGo schools in Africa and other NGO charity is the modern face of philanthropy.

    Since nothing is of value and nothing will help, are you feeling sad or depressed?

    If you're not depressed by our reality you are either not paying attention or are selling submission as a soma or Balm of Gilead.

    I avoid becoming too depressed by realizing that there is a chance to save Mother Earth from the Death Cult called civilization and some humans are working for that goal.

    So your hopeful solution to the death cult called civilization is ..,,,,,..?

    Obviously Sex on Wheels, a la Mad Max/Road Warrior


    Rubes are people like you who spout continual acrimony about 'liberals' while never mentioning the other Party, which has led the nation into disaster after disaster, decade after decade.

    A very disillusioned GWBush voter who lost all hope after the 1000 year GOP Reich Wing Dynasty of 'with us or against us' dog whistle freedom balanced budgets prosperity build the border wall get Saddam 'free speech zones' deregulation cut taxes ideological train wreck scam crashed in 2008.  While even now still claiming the GOP 'protected us'.

    Followed by the liberal hater's most dreaded agony....8 years of the 'Kenyan Usurper'...whose fate was to try to clean up the mess, facing unrelenting GOP opposition from the day he took office.

    Sorry, NCD i didn't mean to nearly drive you to tears also. Will this help? Republican politicians are also parasites of the Ruling Class, except for that Trump guy he's just Ruling Class.

    It seems that by now you would have realized that the Messiah Obama never intended to clean up any mess just insure that the Banksters didn't pay for any of it.

    So from Dubya to Donald.

    If I have tears they are tears of laughter for rubes like you and your soul mates in Utah who always merrily follow and vote for the GOP war profiteerrs, hucksters or incompetent loudmouths.

    That "drive you to tears" crap is just meant to mock and piss you off to suck you in. it's troll bait. I take his troll bait sometimes too so I'm not making suggestions. Just pointing it out.

    Thanks. I'm convinced he was a fervent W voter.

    My gentle mocking has even got PP's knickers in a knot and it's kind of humorous that he has to try to explain it to you.

    I thought that Bush's Compassionate Conservatism made everyone all warm and fuzzy inside, well at least enough of the Supremes to let him show his soft side.

    I committed a much more unforgivable heresy in 2000 than voting for Bush, i voted for Nader.


    Peter Pater a Green Party voter?

    The Green Party that wants to give every Mexican citizen a permanent pass to cross the border?

    Peter Pater who touts the Donald as the only non-parasite, and who gets a warm fuzzy feeling when Donald talks about building a border wall to keep out the Mexican rapists?

    .....and there is Green Party support for gun control, women's right to abortion, path to citizenship for millions of illegal immigrants already here, universal single payer health care...?

    Peter Pater who believes the Seed Bank in Norway is some scheme of Wall Street billionaires, sound like a Green voter...?

    I don't think so.

    The Global Seed Vault is an admission that we are already  destroying our seed diversity and will continue to and hope that someday our mistakes can be reversed, which is fantasy. The only way to maintain the world's seed crop diversity is to destroy Industrial Civilization because the farmers who control that diversity, mostly poor farmers, are some of the most threatened people in the world, threatened by the penetration of industrial agriculture. The effects of NAFTA on small Mexican farmers and their local seed varieties is just one example.

    Another and grimmer view of this vault is that the powerful groups and people in our world are simply planning for their get to be they ones who  survive the collapse and they will need this  resource to guarantee their future.


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