[Everybody else's history] Bad stuff happened, gets forgotten...

     sometimes later people called historians research it...

    Ireland's Forgotten Sons Recovered Two Centuries Later https://t.co/B4W8MzpZuT

    — J. W. (@wolfjon4) May 25, 2021


    got a kick out of this subtle point about Tom Hanks' op-ed on Tulsa, that he wasn't saying you just get to learn about Tulsa, you unfortunately got to learn the other stuff too:

    Tom Hanks: Do you know that the Erie Canal is the reason Manhattan became the economic center of America?

    Chet Haze: A-yo that shits tight bro (jamaican accent) DA EERIE CANAL-- BOoyaKAA!

    Tom Hanks (smiling): very good son pic.twitter.com/tDIaFGEoU1

    — Rajat Suresh (@rajat_suresh) June 4, 2021

    [later edit for grammar mistake]

    Gen Z are people who are currently 6 to 24 years old. From the sound of the voices I'd guess those were young teens in the video. How much history did you know as a young teen? I can't say I knew very much.

    I read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich at 13-14. Neighbor kids had WWII airplane models and such by 10 or so. Remember Readers Digest & Time covering lots of basic current events and history. Certainly wouldn't have had this dumb a conversation in Jr High up, likely anywhere past 3rd grade - level of seriousness and basic knowledge in the class was already pretty high. We had dumbass arguments for sure, but they came with some basic facts.

    Although "everybody did it" is a questionable excuse, we certainly shouldn't single out America for condemnation when it comes to imperialism. Europeans aren't  in a strong position to lecture Americans about it, at least if we're talking about the period from 1776 to the mid-20th century. De Tocqueville lamented the plight of Native Americans in this country, but he strongly supported France's conquest of Algeria. Heal thyself, Alexis.

    The core of the discussions are about how the ancestors of some Americans were treated by the ancestors of other Americans 

    You will get pushback when you talk about taking down a monument to Christopher Columbus or a Confederate general from citizens of the United States.

    The arguments are internal.

    Of course Columbus was not British nor a founder of the 13 British colonies - but he did largely discover America, a monumental achievement and marker in world history - perhaps the biggest. The Greeks made their gods greedy, jealous and murderous, so there was little misunderstanding or mistaken expectations when honoring them.

    There were already humans on the continent.

    Native Americans get to complain about Columbus Day.

    Italians get to argue for keeping the holiday.

    South Dakota was the first state to rename Columbus Day, in 1990, electing to go with Native Americans’ Day. Alaska was second, in 2017, enacting Indigenous Peoples Day. Three other states — New Mexico, Maine, Vermont — followed suit this year. And Washington, D.C., this week renamed the holiday, pending congressional approval.


    Welcome to the melting pot 

     I've made some people online angry by defending Columbus Day. We can take Columbus' name off it if he is considered too bad for the honor, but I want to keep it. I don't believe the legacy of 1492 is entirely negative(I can list the positives if anyone wants). There's also the question of double standards. If Columbus Day(and other holidays?) are invalid because of all the bad stuff, why doesn't the bad stuff in indigenous societies invalidate Indigenous Peoples' Day?

    Shhh - they were all peaceful loving natives...

    Columbus has/had his day

    Native American's get their day

    Columbus wasn't a saint

    Native Americans weren't saints

    Different groups get to tell their stories

    No double standard

    The only standard has been Columbus.

    Edit to add:

    Native Americans were actually living in North America 

    Columbus never reached North America 


    Moctezuma told his story too. So did Geronimo and Sitting Bull and Buffy St. Marie & Robbie Robertson and Harry Belafinte are from where?

    Bob Marley & Fidel Castro were from where?

    Who brought tomatoes, potatoes, corn, coffee, tobacco to Europe?

    Who cinched his dick up and sailed west when everyone else for thousands of years said you gotta sail or walk south and east?

    I'm sure there are lovely people in Papua New Gunea and Burundi and Irkutsk and Pago Pago, but so far what they've said means less than 1 guy saying "I think there's a faster way to India", which completely uprooted the old world, destroyed the Ottoman and Arab trade routes and hegemony.

    1 guy. Not "a team of scientists", aside from an easily replaceable crew. Not a king nor a warrior - just a sailor and a primitive compass across a very scary ocean.


    Yes, but Montezuma is exacting his revenge even today after being dead for centuries. By all reports it's quite significant.

    There were people in North America before Columbus

    Other explorers found North America before Columbus

    Columbus did not discover America

    You really should have no problem with the 1619:Project given your explanation of Columbus

    yes, but Columbus' discovery was a major event in the history of the world. Much changed with that discovery. While for example the discovery by the Vikings went largely unnoticed and while of historical note didn't have any impact. I think that's Peracles' point.

    Yes, thank you - perhaps there's more, perhaps that expresses it. I mean, some of my best friends are Vikings, but...

    Deep research by Wesley Yang!

    Bias confirming newspaper snippet with no context. Not surprising as he is an AA fave, and a propaganda disinformation tool of the right.

    Turns out June C. Nash research related to the breakdown of Maya society relationships and traditional beliefs. You and Yang could look it up, although I doubt you care one iota about her or her research:

    The Increasing Resort to Homicide in a Maya Indian Community

    The breaking-down of a social-control system based on belief in the guardianship of the spiritual ancestors and their temporal agents, the curers, is reflected in a rising homicide rate as people turn to individual sanctions when threatened. ... , reflect the conflicts arising from competition in new economic enterprises, the rising suspicion of curers' abuse of their supernatural power, and the loss of belief in the guardianship of the ancestors.

    this thread is intended to be as serious about history as this other one it mimics, it's just intended to allow people to post about history of other peoples than just those sharing a skin color.

    (One could ask why you didn't complain about the seriousness of the writers presented on that thread, or the subject matter to get outraged about like Buckingham Palace banned ethnic minorities from office roles, papers reveal  but I won't, I already know: you come to fight on teams instead of talk with old acquaintances. And I'm getting a little too on in years TO GIVE A SHIT about that. How about you find someone else to play that game with because I AM NOT INTERESTED. You want to talk on topic, then act like you do.)

    you could learn to use other websites to communicate just like you do on old timey ones like this and your other favorite blogs and ask like this guy did

    Interesting. Where is this excerpt taken from?

    — Nadim Hossain (@NadimHossain) May 2, 2021

    If you want to ridicule Wesley Yang, who is simply sharing what he was reading at the time, he's right there, you are allowed on Twitter, go ridicule him and then he'll block you, I guess. Wish we could do that here...

    This guy know you, NCD? it sounds like he does:

    You just lost all credibility you had left with me by labeling Yang a "conservative", that's just like labeling Yglesias a "conservative." Is that where you are at now? That clueless, that deranged by the Trump years? Then I have to say that what you say is like: useless to me, utterly useless. And that's sad because you used to have an open mind that wasn't just interested in labeling the whole world "us vs. them".


    Sand Creek Massacre National Historic Site is located in a remote area of eastern Colorado. This site marks one of the darkest events in American History.

    On November 29, 1864, Colonel Chivington led 675 United States Troops who slaughtered 230 Native Americans (Mostly elderly, women and children) who just months before surrendered to Colonel John Chivington and the federal troops of the Colorado Military District who promised that nothing would happen to them if they surrendered. 

    Sand Creek Massacre National Historic Site is one of the least visited National Park sites with only 5,701 visitors in 2019. For those who have been, it's easy to see why as it is off the main road and down several dirt roads for miles without any real signage [....]

     To be precise, the pledge of safety was given to the Cheyenne not by Chivington, but by Major Wynkoop.

    Thank you for that. Makes a difference, worth looking into if one is interested in truly understanding what happened. Meanwhile, who's going to tell Ranger John, tho?

    The Tuscarora War 

    was fought in North Carolina from September 10, 1711 until February 11, 1715 between the Tuscarora people and their allies on one side and European American settlers, the Yamassee, and other allies on the other. This was considered the bloodiest colonial war in North Carolina.[1] The Tuscarora signed a treaty with colonial officials in 1718 and settled on a reserved tract of land in Bertie County, North Carolina. The war incited further conflict on the part of the Tuscarora and led to changes in the slave trade of North and South Carolina.

    The first successful settlement of North Carolina began in 1653. The Tuscarora lived in peace with the settlers for more than 50 years, while nearly every other colony in America was involved in some conflict with Native Americans. Most of the Tuscarora migrated north to New York after the war, where they joined the Five Nations of the Iroquois Confederacy as the sixth nation.

    caption: An artist's depiction of the torture of Christoph von Graffenried and John Lawson by the Tuscarorans, 1711.


    The Tuscarora were an Iroquoian-speaking people who had migrated from the Great Lakes area into the Piedmont centuries before European colonization. Related peoples made up the Iroquois Confederacy based in New York.


    As the English settled Carolina, the Tuscarora benefited from trade with the English. By acquiring weapons and metal goods from the English, they were able to develop commercial dominance over other tribes in the region. These benefits were experienced to a greater degree by Northern Tuscarora than their Southern counterparts, who became cut off from the prosperous Northern Tuscarora by increasing numbers of European settlers.[.....]

    According to Von Graffenried the Tuscarora intended to spare Lawson, but he threatened them so they put him to death.  Lawson was brave, but foolhardy. I don't remember Von Graffenried saying that he was tortured himself.

    hey, Aaron, you're ruining the whole thing about nobody knowing nothing bout this history item; good for you.wink

    And just another example of how you can't trust artist depictions of events nor those labeling them later!

    at the same time my father was a white American teen raised on the south side of Milwaukee, of northern European heritage, didn't known any Latinos, and he proudly owned a zoot suit, which he just thought was cool. I suspect to his dying day he didn't know zoot suits had anything to do with latinos, it was more that they were like gangsta chic is today.  I guess things were different on the other side of the country? He was drafted right out of high school and thought the army sucked, maybe that had something to do with it? It wasn't the regimentation, because he later joined the merchant marine...

    Anne Applebaum's got a new book out on Ukraine & Stalin and how it impacts us to this day. I admit I can't read this New Republic article on it because I hit the paywall there--looking to read about it elsewhere eventually--in the meantime maybe someone else would like to read it:

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