MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Any Russian interference is only a small part of the “election meddling” we should care about
Comments
So much that is important today is “so yesterday” in our MSN news driven world, especially yesterday and for sure the day before. While some claim to believe that understanding and noting what brought about tragic events in history as recent as fifty years ago on through November of 2016 has little bearing on today because so many details have changed, but, there is a mountain of evidence that, as they say, the more things change the more they stay the same.
Following are a few more links that I think demonstrate that point and others well.
Email Hacking Was ‘Pearl Harbor,’ Helsinki Presidency’s ‘New Low’: Welcome to the United States of Amnesia
A ton has been written about the U.S.A. meddling or worse in the elections of other countries. Here is one more significant story. I was previously unaware of it but ran across it somewhere today. This may well not be a case of anyone forgetting but rather that they never heard about it in the first place. I did a google search to check it out. On the first 3 pages of my search in google every link was to this story but all from alternate news sites. Through 6 pages there was no link to anything from the NYT or WAPO.
Another and another and another. And finally, for now, this.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 07/28/2018 - 9:46pm
Trump is a racist. Republicans in Congress do not challenge his racism. Am I supposed to ignore Russians attempting to keep Trump in office?
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 07/28/2018 - 9:52pm
No suggestion that you ignore anything, including race, was made. On the contrary, it is suggested that you pay attention to something. There will be racists of all races as long as the world supports human life. The next major war, if we do not figure out how to avoid it, might well end racism on earth once and for all.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 07/28/2018 - 10:32pm
Nothing is going to happen until Republicans are out of Congress. Some Republicans will be replaced by more Leftist candidates who may be less likely to support interfering in foreign elections. Changing the status quo will be slow.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 07/28/2018 - 11:00pm
I think he was talking about total nuclear destruction or equivalent.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 3:24pm
There's so much that is wrong that you or I or everyone here could spend pages writing about it. We can't deal with them all, too many people are disengaged or ignorant of the issues. But at any individual moment in time there's an event or a series of events that leave an opening to push forward in dealing with this one or that one of the problems. Russian hacking and meddling in the election with probable cooperation of at least Trump officials is one such event. It's not just opening a window into Russian meddling. It's also opening a window into Facebook and Google's pushing of fake news from every source. In my mind that's a bigger issue than just Russia alone using Facebook to spread fake news. Russians were the spark that started the anger against Facebook but it's gotten bigger. Facebook has gone from trivializing the issue to making ever greater attempts to find some solution to both Russian and American fake news as well as privacy concerns as each attempt has been seen as inadequate. There are even people within Facebook who see the issue a bit more clearly and are pushing for more radical solutions. I agree that there are many more problems and arguably more important issues. But this is the one that's caught the public's eye in this moment and might result in some significant change. We liberals pushing for change don't create the wave, it's generated deep in the ocean of public opinion. We just need to find the best way to ride the ones that come up.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 4:06am
While I do not disagree with what you say in this case I also do not think it is very relevant to the nature of discussions here at dagblog or why we have them. I don’t expect that anyone here is even trying to “deal” with any problem if dealing means affecting the way that those you describe as disengaged and/or ignorant think about or engage with the many problems we agree exist. Those people are not here and so do not even hear what we say. When thinking about our interactions here I think, much like AA says she does though she expresses it differently, of the “Cafe” model in which we are like a group who likes to meet at the coffee house and discuss various topics. For some time now politics has almost completely dominated the discussions. We express our beliefs, our opinions, our speculations, and often our desires. We don’t even expect to significantly change anyone’s mind at the table or at the other tables where the people cannot hear us, much less in the city surrounding the coffee house or in the country surrounding the city.
A couple of us here at dag are [irritatingly?] consistent in what topics we bring to the table. The lonely horse I ride to that table is harsh criticism of our foreign policy. While I do not intend to diminish the importance of our many and varied domestic problems, I do think that the importance of our international problems and how we deal with them are very much underplayed here and when they are the topic of discussion they are mostly treated as simply issues that should be handled in a way that improves the chances of Democrats winning elections so that domestic problems have a better chance of being handled in a way we, as a group, approve of. I think that is such a narrow focus of concern as to be both short sighted and wrong and so I say so even though I am not so crazy as to believe that I will easily change minds here or affect any larger group opinion by doing so. That is not the point although if my horse got hitched to a wagon big enough and enough people climbed aboard so that that issue gained the prominence among the national electorate that I think it deserves, and even if legality and ethics and morality and the Christian spirit of the Golden Rule in the way our actions affect people around the world in harshly negative ways continue to be ignored but pragmatism towards long term prosperity and even survivability were to be considered intelligently and in depth, our leaders would have to, or at least should have to, change their ways to get elected.
To summarize harshly, I think that supporting, or even just going along with, our long time foreign policy is as damaging and stupid in the long run as going along with that large group who overtly oppose or simply disregard global warming. Neither global warming nor our country's foreign policy can, IMO, continue for long without globally catastrophic effects.
That’s my rant and I’m sticking to it. Thanks for your comment.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 2:49pm
True that we here are not players on the national or international stage. But our discussions are not solely esoteric or theoretical. They're connected with current events that we observe and attempt to understand. In a completely theoretical discussion I agree with most of your linked article. America is sometimes, perhaps often, a malign influence on world events. We do things we often condemn other nations for doing.
At this moment we're not going to change that. But we do have an opportunity to rein in Facebook's click bait business model that pushes the more exciting fiction and conspiracy based news over the more boring reality based news sites. I don't want to see this article's memes and message gain in the current mindset of the public as it would get in the way of using the (very real and dangerous) Russian issue to address the larger issue of Facebook's inadvertent complicity with Russia and other fake news and conspiracy minded "news" sites. The problem with articles like this is that if they gain followers they risk frittering away this moment in a both sides do it discussion.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 4:51pm
There's a new problem with doing that right now, Lulu, it is that we no longer have a coherent foreign policy, we only have the whims of one man that change all the time. And his idiosyncratic actions are like a catalyst: whatever he ends up doing is changing the attitudes of traditional allies and enemies where in the future under new presidents, they will never trust the U.S. again in the same way to do the same things. Throw in that there are populist nationalist protectionist movements worldwide right now. And much easier tools for foreign actors who wish to do so to influence elections and beliefs in all countries. The old paradigm is over and we don't know yet what is going to happen to replace it. It's all strings and mirrors and not much real going on, note especially the last sentence here:
The Trump Administration Struggles to Defend Its Unruly Foreign Policy
By Robin Wright @ NewYorker.com, July 26, 2018
I don't see much use in continually arguing over our old foreign policy. It is truly gone with the wind. Even the CIA and NSA are neutered. The Pentagon is laying low and not talking, I suspect so as to not draw the attention of the crazed supposed commander-in-chief to the operations they are still executing. They don't want to have to deal with more shit like this.
What for example is Turkey, our friend and ally or a new enemy? We don't really know yet. Oh look, even Ed Snowden admits Russia is corrupt. Crickets respond to that. because it's a new world. Julian Assange? Never going to be trusted again by anyone, including Ecuador. You have old conservatives freaking out about Trump and Putin because: they want the old order back, that's what conservatism is, and they are in effect admitting: it's gone.
It is like Osama Bin Laden got his wish to upset the world, except so far it's not working out for him that the caliphate is coming. We don't know what's coming and I don't see arguing like we do as very useful right now. As I see it, we've just got to pay attention to what's happening in order to better judge what new candidates for office say on what should be done about what's happening.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 4:25pm
P.S. And one cannot have "a new perspective on Russia" until one figures out whether Russia had and continues to have undue influence on the current crazy head of the U.S. or not. That there is no transparency about that just fucks up any real conversation about foreign policy going forward. That's the first step in knowing the real situation on that, that's the problem. But we are on our way with the Mueller investigation, we are not at least leaving it just up to the strings and mirrors of body politics and political war and Facebook posting et. al.. Everyone should be proud that our system can at least still do that. Just because investigations about foreign influence peddling didn't happen to previous administrations doesn't mean it's not a good thing that it's happening to this one. If you're going to argue: but Bush Sr. and Bush Jr. and Clinton and Obama administrations did this and did that which were equally bad, and nothing was done, I'm going to say: so what? What are you trying to say, that it's bad that something is happening to expose such dealings now? I would then say get a grip, either you to laud attempts at transparency or you don't.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 4:50pm
If we stipulate that Russia, a foreign country that should not involve itself in our elections just like no foreign country should, had some unknown and unknowable amount of influence on who our citizenry voted for, do you honestly believe that it approaches the influence that that Israel had? Why is that influence not even discussed if Russia's influence is considered to be the equivalent of Pearl Harbor?
I am all for transparency and all for getting all foreign governments out of our politics and would even be willing to quit fucking with other countries politics if that was the cost of doing so.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 7:31pm
That's a very simplistic analysis. It's not influence alone that's the issue but how and why that influence comes about. Israel doesn't really have a great influence on American policy. American citizens who are Jews and American citizens who are fundamentalist Christians that believe in the version of the apocalypse that culminates in a battle on the fields of Armageddon in Israel influence American policy to Israel's benefit. If not for American citizens who are Jewish or fundamentalist Christians many politicians policy towards Israel would be different. Just as it was not Ireland that caused American policy to soft peddle IRA terrorism but American citizens with generational Irish connections. At a superficial level it appears as though Israel's influence on American policy has increased but that's not actually true. What has increased is the power of the fundamentalist Christians. That affects policy towards abortion, gays, and Israel.
Russian influence on American elections was not generated by American citizens with Russian ancestry but by hacking and other criminal activity along with using social media, Wikileaks, and other sources to hide the origin of the con they attempted to perpetuate on the unsuspecting American, and other nations, citizens
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 8:53pm
Irt is not a simplistic analysis for the simple reason that it is not an analysis. It is a statement of what I believe is a fact. It is a set up rhetorical question that states that Israel does in fact have a tremendously greater influence on American elections than did Russia in our last Presidential election. The tremendous amounts of money given and other ways that American Jews influence our elections and the positions so many of our politicians take are for the purpose of supporting Israeli policies. The analyses have been done over and over and the results have been convincing that they have been very effective in their influence and for me that is the issue.
If Americans of Russian heritage did have great attachment to Mother Russia, and I expect many do because that is just a common, almost universal, manifestation of human nature and they were able to affect American politics in ways intended to benefit Russia over the best interests of our own country and they did so, I would certainly object and I expect that you would too.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 11:06pm
I cannot imagine you know many Americans of Russian heritage after reading this comment! Nor history of immigration!
Not the least of which because many of them are Jewish and pro-Israel. Party because: for much of the 20th century, Soviet Russians were not allowed to emigrate anywhere at all, they weren't even allowed to travel outside the country. Except for some Jews and a few anti-communist dissidents. Before that time: a few of "white Russian" or Orthodox Russian descent have a fondness for a different 19th-century Russia, but again, many Russian emigres were still Jewish as well because of: pogroms by the dominant Christians in Russia, with not exactly fond memories of anything but the segregated sub-culture life in the shtetls. Hence the fondness of Russian-Americans for Fiddler on The Roof type stories, art by Chagall, etc. that celebrates shtetl life in Russia that was destroyed, causing Jewish Russians to leave.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 11:45pm
You are correct that I do not know many Americans of Russian heritage. The only ones I have met of whom I became aware that they were of Russian heritage is a few in Hayward California who had immigrated in the 90's because of the severe financial situation that had developed in Russia. I didn't ask and they didn't say whether they had become citizens so I actually might not have ever known any "Americans" of Russian heritage.
My particular knowledge of Americans of Russian heritage, or rather lack of it, is why I began my hypothetical with the word "if" and continued it with the less than positive statement that I would then "expect", I have known Americans of heritage from many other nations though, and even if I hadn't it would be hard not to know that most people have a special affinity for the land of their forefathers just like Ocean-kat suggested about the Irish. Even 'if' every Russian who left that country despises the place it does not change the validity of my hypothetical constructed to make a point which I stand by.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 12:50am
It's not a fact but an opinion that I vehemently disagree with. Of course I object to many of the policy positions of my fellow citizens both domestic and foreign policy but I don't always assume that the cause is the influence of other nations. I disagreed when America allowed fund raising for IRA terrorists. But that policy didn't come about because politicians were influenced by Ireland or the IRA. It came about because of the residual effects of a large wave of Irish immigration over 150 years ago among a sufficient number of present day American voters.
It was a priority policy goal for Israel to get the US to recognize Jerusalem as it's capital and to move the embassy there. For all the influence you seem to think Israel has they were unable to achieve that goal until Trump. Either Trump was controlled by Israel or he used his power as president to give a gift to his evangelical base. Imo it's obvious he's been doing all he can without congress to please his base, it's all he has. Imo it's clear he recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital for the fundamentalist Christian base. Mostly because the Christians don't like his multiple marriages, his affairs with porn stars, his moral failings and bragging about them, even his twitter rants. His policy moves toward Israel and his anti abortion court picks are what keeps them in the fold. Frankly this seems to be the consensus among all pundits I read.
Suffice it to say that we can't have a productive discussion on this issue when our fundamental premises are diametrically opposed.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 12:17am
I don't either "always" blame foreign governments for policy decisions which I disagree with so that is a nonsensical retort. How would you define a "productive" discussion on this issue? Would it necessarily be one in which I come to agreed with your various positions in opposition to mine even when you defend yours and attack mine by disagreeing with things I did not say?
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 1:03am
There's a new problem with doing that right now, Lulu, ...
Doing what? Remembering our history? Our history in relation to other countries is a great part of why we are losing the trust of other countries, that loss which you allude to further down and apparently believe only began with our current administration and blame only on Trump. A column from Foreign Policy Magazine which I posted here a short while back made quite succinctly and quite correctly IMO the point that recent and historical actions by our government to break or violate agreements with other countries was destroying their trust of the U.S.A.
... it is that we no longer have a coherent foreign policy, we only have the whims of one man that change all the time.
Please tell me when we last had a coherent foreign policy and or what our "coherent" foreign policy was before Trump. I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth but I believe Moat agreed with me when I stated that we had no coherent foreign policy strategy to deal with the rest of the world but only ad hoc tactics. Regardless Moat's position I stand by that assessment.
Citing the United Nations charter, dating back seven decades, the State Department noted, “No country can change the borders of another by force.”
Do they even hear themselves speak?
At the G-7 summit last month, in Canada, he reportedly said the majority of Crimea’s residents “would rather be with Russia.”
The overinflated orange buffoon may contradict that at any time like some propagandists do but it happens that that statement is 100% true.
The Administration is struggling, in particular, to prove that its bold decision to meet with the North Korean leader in Singapore last month is leading to progress. So far, there is still no formal agreement on what “denuclearization” actually means.
The Administration has yet to ink a final deal to resolve any major issue.
Two hollow pointless statements made from a partisan political position IMO. Big deal international negotiations meant to change the entire standing of a country's defense strategy can be expected to take a long time. Obama’s nuclear deal with Iran being an obvious example having been concluded well into his second term.
Even the CIA and NSA are neutered.
I think that statement is incorrect.
more shit like this.
That is almost certainly more interservice rivalry and intended as protection of turf than an independent consideration of what should be done. The Army objected strenuously to the creation of the Air Force as a separate division of our armed forces after WWII.
Oh look, even Ed Snowden admits Russia is corrupt.
Ed Snowden is not a dummy.I doubt very much that he ever thought that Russia is not corrupt.
As I see it, we've just got to pay attention to what's happening in order to better judge what new candidates for office say on what should be done about what's happening.
I believe that the history of past leaders and candidates and of the people who will be in positions of power and influence in whatever administration comes next is important. Every day is not a new day in all ways.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 7:18pm
So we've both made our points, agree to disagree. Far be it from me to argue against learning from history but I happen to think it's not worth much time to do that without first understanding where we are it and you think it is worth the time. I don't see any reason to belabor that difference, carry on, just don't expect everyone like me to want to participate.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/29/2018 - 7:57pm
You've spoken a lot of nonsense about Donbas, Crimea, Kiev and Syria. Hardly time to forgive and forget and aapply those lessons not learned to the rest of the world.
Especially when Putin-forgiveness & gullibility and attacking every bit of Anerican foreign policy helped get us in this shitty situation. Yeah, I'd love to go back to Clinton times and debate nuances or whether Gore was too robotic or took a few thousand bucks at a Buddhist Temple. But we left that barn almost 2 decades ago.
Where was your condemnation of MH-17 or reaction to Russia/Syria's chemical bombing of civilians? Seems it was all a dream, no interest in human rights, only as a hammer, a bludgeon to win elections, not do right. Where's that Glenn Greenwald fucker and and VIPS and that intellectual fellow-travelling magazine...? What happened to Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi and Hillary's warmongering?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 12:31am
Flesh out your assertions of my alleged nonsense a couple at a time rather than just dumping a gish gallop and I will respond, though it may be a while before I have much time again.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 1:22am
Been there, done that no t-shirt (you can prolly search dagblog for VIPS or Consortium to find them fleshed out).
How about tell us what you've learned about Putin, Syria, Wikileaks, Donbas, Kiev, MH-17 in the last 18 months, including chemical & biological weapons, cyberwar, disinformation.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 11:03am
Ed Snowden is not a dummy.I doubt very much that he ever thought that Russia is not corrupt.
It's hard to tell when you write things up like this when you're quoting and when you're responding, but I think the above is your response. If so, it seems somewhat counterintuitive to your usual assumptions about Russia (though you've never really said you think it's a bastion of pure goodness, to be fair). So thinking Russia not corrupt would be thinking as a dummy?
by barefooted on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 2:58pm
Yes, you read it right, thinking Russia is not corrupt would be thinking as a dummy but I would like now to modify my statement a bit. First, apologies for my formatting mistake. Not worth the time and effort to explain how it happened except to say that my program does things I haven't figured out yet. I intended only AA's lines to be bold and mine standard. That is how it appeared when I copied it from my program and then pasted it to the comment box. The quotes from AA's comment can be picked out by referring back to it but that should not be necessary.
My assumption about the demonization of Russia is that it is way overblown and that is counter productive to our country's interests and creates a more dangerous situation. The root article to this comment train at the top expands on that considerably and is one I agree with and which in this case, as is usual when I post a link in the news, is why I did so.
As to Snowden saying Russia is corrupt I would reject AA's misleading connotation put on his statement by using the word "admit"in her description of what Snowden said: "Oh look, even Ed Snowden admits Russia is corrupt." Instead I would agree with what he actually said: "The Russian government is corrupt in many ways, that’s something the Russian people realize. Russian people are warm. They are clever. It’s a beautiful country. Their government is the problem not the people.”
Here are a couple more statements I would make and defend. The U.S. government is corrupt in many ways, that’s something the American people realize. American people are warm. They are clever. It’s a beautiful country. Their government is the problem not the people. Well of course some of the people everywhere are a problem but I expect you will take the point as intended.
I am currently in Mexico: Part of the way I would describe Mexico with equal conviction is to say: The Mexican government is corrupt in many ways, that’s something the Mexican people realize. Mexican people are warm. They are clever. It’s a beautiful country. Their government is the problem not the people.
I acknowledge and report these statements as my experience. I do not ""admit" them.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 9:37pm
Sure, Lulu - "demonization". "way overblown"' Now what do you think of that Maria Burtina chick on Russian payroll recruiting US politicians via the NRA? http://amp.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/national-security/...
What do you think of Mueller's indictment of 12 Russians in hacking the election, to go along with earlier ones?
What was your reaction to the Helsinki treason summit - anything bother you there?
Any thoughts on the Wikileaks dump of 11000 internal messages showing they were firmly forcefully in the bag for defeating Clinton, not just a neutral "information wants to be free"?
Any response to the latest Novichok poisoning in UK?
How about news that the Russians helped fund Brexit?
How about breaking news via Giuliani that Trump team including Trump himself conducted 2 pre-meetings and the meeting itself in meeting with the Russians on Jun 9 2016 at Trump Tower to find dirt on Hillary (via illegally stealing multiple email accounts)?
You're getting hilarious. Must be tough reading the news with 1 eye closed. If you learned Spanish that way you probably skip the vowels. Vy cn Ds, hst lg.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 10:25pm
Okay, it really was worse than Pearl Harbor and we really should bomb the shit out of Russia. What could I have been thinking?
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 11:13pm
Yeah, cause there really is no middle ground between doing nothing or starting WWIII.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 07/30/2018 - 11:46pm
It's 2018, Lulu - indiscriminate bombing is largely out of fashion except for Russia, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Israel/Palestine. Try diplomacy, citizen unity, cyberdefense, et al.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 1:54am
"Flesh out your assertions" - well, you can't even respond to a list of recent developments without going all sulky and "oh just bomb them then". What do you think about these issues, Lulu? How do they impact your previously proferred opinion? When you see convictions for mass hacking and some plead guilty for setting up fake bank accounts for Russians, does it change anything? When you see photos of a Russian mole/organizer with *tons of* GOP politicians at NRA events, does it alter your opinion?
We've debated with you long and hard, respectfully and sometimes not so. But still trying to figure out what informs your opinion aside from time in Vietnam.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 2:10am
This entire comment thread started with an article which lays out its entire point in the headline, "It's Time For A Little Perspective On Russia". You have not made one response with any reference to anything in that article. I think you avoid doing so because you cannot intelligently argue against either the thesis made clear in the title or the argument made in the body supporting that thesis. Do you believe that our collective media, our elected leaders,our public intellectuals, etc are showing a reasoned perspective on Russia? If you think that posting Youtube ads with some fake news along with leaked or hacked emails which reveal truths about the DNC and other operatives of the campaign to elect Hillary are actually the equivalent of Pearl Harbor just say so? Do you believe that whipping large a percentage of public opinion into believing that is the case has created an accurate perspective on Russia? If you do just say so. Make yourself clear on that point at least.
Do you believe that there were no skinhead Nazi loving right wing antisemitic goons involved in the coup in Ukraine? Do you believe they have since become relegated from power and influence in that country? Do you believe that the oligarchs that took over are less corrupt than the ones they kicked out? Do you believe that it is a legitimate government which by coup removed the lawfully elected government in Ukraine? Do you believe Russia took Crimea by force against the wishes of the overwhelming percentage of its population. Do you believe the Crimean population would now vote differently and vote to rejoin Ukraine? Do you believe that the U.S. did not support the coup in Ukraine clandestinely, diplomatically, and financially? Do you believe that is how to support and spread democracy?
DYB that it was good policy for the U.S. to instantly recognize the coup overthrow of the legitimately elected government in Venezuela? DYB that it is good policy to try now to bring down that restored government with economic war and threats of military attack? DYB that it was right or even somehow smart to support the coup in Honduras? DYB that policy had good results.
DYB that since Putin took over from the totally corrupt drunkard Yeltsin who held power previously because of our support interference and who ordered his military to open fire with artillery on Russia's parliament, that Russia has dropped anywhere close to the tonnage of bombs on foreign countries as has the U.S.? DYB that Russia was promised that NATO would not move one bit closer to Russia if they left Germany so it could reunite? DYB that promise was violated now that NATO has moved right to Russia's border? Do you believe Russia has a right to exist?
Do you recognize a Gish Gallop when you see one? Do you deny that that is what your several comments above are by definition? Just like this one of mine except that most things I suggested can be shown definitively to be true. In case you don't know that your method has been formally recognized, here is what a Gish Gallop is:
The Gish gallop is a technique used during debating that focuses on overwhelming one's opponent with as many arguments as possible, without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments. The term was coined by Eugene Scott and named after the creationist Duane Gish, who used the technique frequently against opponents on the topic of evolution. During a Gish gallop, a debater confronts an opponent with a rapid series of many specious arguments, half-truths, and misrepresentations in a short space of time, which makes it impossible for the opponent to refute all of them within the format being used. In practice, each point raised by the "Gish galloper" takes considerably more time to refute with fact-check than it did to state in the first place. The technique wastes an opponent's time along with that of any audience. One final question; How is your conduct in this comment thread different than that of a troll?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 9:53am
Addressing the first part of your post. The Russian attacks were designed to aid in electing Trump. Trump is a racist who alleged that Obama was not born in the United States. That was a lie. The data suggests that Trump aided and abetted the Russian hack.Fake news energized his base. His base shows a great deal of racial bias. The fake news soured people on Hillary Clinton. Trump is actively attacking black people. Why are you so dismissive of the Russian hack?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 10:51am
I am not dismissing anything about either Russia's alleged social media BS aimed at both sides or their alleged "hack" of anything they could be expected to try to hack. What I am doing by way of an excellent essay on the subject of perspective rather than hysteria regarding those actions is to agree with the author that it is time for a more reasoned perspective on Russia.
That is an answer to a question that my post and responses did not beg. Would you now answer a very simple question? Did you read the article and do you think any part of it came to wrong conclusions?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 11:12am
I am addressing your statement
That is dismissive. Russia is already hacking a Democratic candidate. What form of appeasement towards Russia would please you?
Claire McCaskill
https://www.npr.org/2018/07/26/632890327/russians-unsuccessfully-tried-to-hack-computers-of-democratic-sen-claire-mccaski
This came in the setting of Trump asking to “vote her out”
https://nypost.com/2018/07/26/russians-targeted-dem-senator-as-trump-said-to-vote-her-out/
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 11:36am
About what could be expected. Never mind.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 11:42am
You seem to be an apologist for a country that helped put a white supremacist in office. The concern about Russia is real, not irrational. You are not on a higher moral ground on this issue. Addressing Russia is part and parcel of working to change how we address other countries. No change will come without first addressing the Russian hack.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 12:19pm
Lulu, you're famous for posting articles that spatter stupid shit from decades, and then you never want to discuss specifics, instead pouting about how we respond. If we've got such fucking awesome "signals intel" on Russia that's manipulating elections, how come we couldn't stop Putin from getting 77% of the vote? How come we didn't stop Yanukovich from getting elected? For that mattet, how come we let the Muslim Brotherhood get elected in Egypt if Hillary was so into control?
And don't you feel a slight bit sheepish with article claims that Hillary did something, but the reference says she "appears" to have said something, but only 1 person in the world supposedly has access to the original recording?
You keep playing "both sides do it", but I don't see where the US put massive numbers of hackers on stealing info and pushing blatantly false info on Russia, looking like a billion dollar effort.
As for this Yeltsin thing, I bet you that missing article doesn't address that 3 years earlier the high level Communists pulled a coup on Gorbachev while vacationing in Crimea, a coup that failed miserably when popular Yeltsin climbed up on a tank and brought the military over to the people's side. Or you regret the fall of the vicious Soviet Union? Or it simply doesn't matter, 3 years later it's no longer worth discussing?
Enough bullshit, Lulu - you're a fraud, a gross apologist, and your links continually suck. There's no piece of evidence in the world that could dissuade you from this "both sides do it but the US does it worse" crap. None of us here go easy on our part with Mossadegh, in turning a blind eye to Israel's worst, to our providing Saudi Arabia with weapons to take out civilians in Yemen... but when you're continually proven wrong about things like Russia backing Syrian chemical attacks and backing Donbas insurgents in knocking down a Malaysian civilian plane, or in Russia's *HACKING AND STEALING ONE PARTY'S ENTIRE STRATEGY DATABASE* (not just Hillary's emails) in a presidential election year, well, you're simply tainted.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 4:06pm
In the grand scheme of things, while observing from somewhere in the nothingness of space, every government that is "in charge" of a large swath of people and at least minutely engaged with other countries and their governments is corrupt. The dirty work comes down to discerning the type of corruption, the degree of effect on the people both within and outside of said country and the at least argued purpose behind the behavior that may be considered corrupt. Nuance is necessary to understand the whole of anything - but understanding the governments of countries and the decades/centuries that have created their present incarnation requires so much more ... and it absolutely means judging each by its own measure.
I don't care how nicely you weave Snowden's quote about Russia's government into a pattern that includes the US and Mexico, Lulu, you're projecting a false premise and you know it. You're too smart not to, yet you think we don't? Acknowledging that all governments are subject to corruption does not, and will never, mean that they are all equal in their use of it.
by barefooted on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 12:17am
I agree completely. It is invariably true that the stronger corrupt party uses their corruption more often and more effectively.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 10:03am
In my experience, you basically want to make one point with virtually all the articles and blog entries you have ever posted: that the U.S. is the worst offender in foreign relations for more than a century and continues to be, and they should clean up their own house, stop trying to interfere in other country's business and do many mea culpas about all the bad stuff we have done in the past, before we dare complain about any other country or interfere in what any other country does or try to stop what another country is doing. And that furthermore, people don't realize that the deep state is always still doing bad stuff under our name. Because most of the MSM is always enabling all of that by taking the lies of the deep state and foreign-policy-side of government seriously. That we certainly shouldn't be taking any action until every single citizen understands why we are doing it and they can't because there are so many lies. And that until we have truth about all of what the government is doing under our name, it's better to go looking for it in the arguments of those who the government or the powers-that-be are presenting as our supposed enemies.
Am I right?
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 3:24pm
There is an element of truth in most everything you say but you have stretched all points beyond accuracy and it seems to be for the purpose of making each allegation an indictment. Am I right? I pointed out myself in this very thread that by far the most common subject that I bring up here is foreign policy, so no great insight there.
Your last sentence you got completely wrong.
I do not, have not, suggested that we should instead listen to the story told by alleged or real enemies and give those stories the benefit of any doubt but rather should listen to and consider our own story tellers who have a much better history of getting their stories right than the ones who have a long record of not only getting the story, often a story handed to them, wrong. We should especially look critically at the stories of those with a history of being wrong on very important matters and who have previously proselytized to push the wrong story when they knew or should have known that it was wrong and appear to be doing doing it all over again. As should as obvious as the things you mention is that I believe and have tried to demonstrate is that all the best analysis of what can be known by the public does not come from the NYT or WAPO. [You have read and I think understand the institutional reasons why that has become so] Believing that it does seems to me to be as misguided as being a biblical fundamentalist. Too much has been learned since "the book" was written.
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 07/31/2018 - 8:09pm
"There is an element of truth in most everything you say but you have stretched all points beyond accuracy" - oh, like your FUD about Kiev "brownshirts" prepared to commit atrocities on civilians a few years ago? Should we just forget that that didn't even come close to happening, and move on to your next claims? I notice the anti-Wikileaks dump of 11,000 messages addresses your MH17 claims, putting you in good company with the paranoid and discredited Assange along with Putin himself - any remorse about that?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 12:17am
Are yu going to be OK, PP? Have the crazy voices started to go away? Have you thought about switching meds?I hope you get well. Seriously.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 2:55pm
His comment sounds not only very rational to me but like someone with an extremely good memory about past discussions the two of you have had.
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 3:00pm
Still not willing to talk specifics, despite pretending and sobbing you want to talk specifics. Howabout that Maria Butina - watcha think about her? Quite the Putin babe, no? How you like Putin kicking Navalny off the ballot? Pretty funny for a guy who should easily win 60-70% w/o trying. So much for Russia as a democracy. But we knew that, no? At least go for Nasty Rybka and her Deripaska connection & Pattaya sex lessons...
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 3:36pm
Oh yes, THIS > Still not willing to talk specifics, despite pretending and sobbing you want to talk specifics.
Lulu, you do exactly this. It is something that is not conducive at all to discussion that you claim to want. You basically seem to come here to prove that there has been the conspiracy for the last 100 years and everything is still the same. You cherry pick articles from those who are trying to prove that. You are not open to any nuance, you think the nuance is a waste of time, that we are not seeing the big picture, and here's the umpteenth article you have found reinforcing your world view.
And by doing so, you are never going to get news junkie people to go along. News junkies are into nuance and change, daily facts, not supposed eternal truths. Not: this is Vietnam and the Lusitania allover again, so why bother reading or believing the news. "Discussing" with you is like discussing with Howard Beale of Network after he has learned there is a sort of Trilateral Commission running the whole world. Nothing to discuss here except that it's a mad mad world.
On foreign policy, you are an ideologue of the highest level and you won't fully own up to that. You cherry pick your reading and facts to fit your ideology instead of trying to form facts into some kind of narrative, as admittedly most of us do. Not the end of the world, we've always had ideologues and freedom of speech welcomes them. It's just that expecting news junkies to want to discuss your ideology with you after they have fully given it a chance and dismissed it is simply foolish. You're not really here to discuss, you're here to gain converts to your ideology.
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 4:08pm
p.s. Sum it up like this: Decided quite some time ago that I didn't want to be a sucker for your game anymore of challenging other people to come up with details to try to convince you that your conspiracy is wrong. It's quite a useless exercise that steals time. You're not interested in details, you have an explanation for the world that you like and you're sticking to it, for you details and nuance are just a distraction. It's basically trolling on a highly sophisticated level.
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 4:52pm
And this is why I don't like to participate in discussion with you on the topics you come here to post any longer. Because you come with the same project in mind. And it's the same project over and over and over. When I have taken the time in the past to realize that I do not share your view on this, I don't like being badgered about not participating as if it is a moral failing of mine that I do not agree. I don't see any reason to participate any longer, you have a closed mind on this and so do I.
It's almost like you stop here when you get tired of hanging with and reading like minded folks and are in the mood for some challenge to your world view. In order to smack down anyone who disagrees and reinforce your world view. And if we are dismissive of articles you present then you feel you have done your duty of seeking out a challenge and go away feeling reinforced and morally superior about us all being fooled by the media you feel is complicit (Only in foreign policy, mind you. I presume you think they report the truth about sex robots, and you do not believe there is a lack of truth in NYT and WaPo articles about the latest mass shooting.)
I have always enjoyed interacting with you on other topics that others post. Just not the foreign policy ones. It's the same thing over and over and over.
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 3:19pm
If I may be allowed to tag on to your comment, arta, I'd like to add this to Lulu here because it seems to fit (if a bit sideways) ...
I find your posts and even somewhat inflammatory comments very interesting when you put the emphasis on your travels and the people you meet along the way. You go to places most of us know about solely through news reports if at all, and you certainly meet people that we never would. You travel not in the fashion of a tourist, but as someone who wants to immerse himself in wherever he is - I find that admirable and worthy of the sort of envy a person feels when they know they'd never really do it themselves even if given the chance. Not in the same gritty way that you describe sometimes - when you do describe your walks around the here and there.
I disagree with your opinions on many things, Lulu, but the fact that you are expressing your views from not only a past emotional place but a very present one is not lost on me. You're living your viewpoint - and whether it's good to find reinforcement in the lives you meet or perhaps hazardous if you seek those lives and circumstances for that sole purpose I can't say. Only you can.
I looked this piece of yours up because it's always in the back of my mind when I talk to you - and I still thank you for it and other experiences you've shared. I hope you continue to do so.
http://dagblog.com/reader-blogs/mini-travel-blog-20403
(The "repeat" in the comments of a response you wrote elsewhere, at Peracles' request, which preceeded your post is worth the cost of admission.)
by barefooted on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 5:22pm
Thanks barefooted for this comment. I would appreciate it anyway but it is certainly not wrongly off topic in a conversation where nobody else will even admit reading the intended topic's subject. It comes at a time when I have been giving much thought to Nicaragua and its recent outbreak of violent demonstrations. What little coverage I have seen from U.S. media gives the implementation of austerity measures enacted to keep Nicaragua's social security system solvent as the trigger event. While that was the trigger, the underlying reason is said, in domestic MSM reporting that I have heard, to be the growing discontent with the Sandinista government. That certainly may be some of the truth, but whether it is the whole truth and nothing but the truth, is something I doubt it.
You probably didn’t notice but I made one extensive edit to my reporting on that trip. The person now falsely described as a professor was originally described in terms that would make it easy for anyone with enough incentive to do so to identify him. The reason I made the edit was the realization that things can change rapidly and radically in that part of the world. I did not want any chance, however slight, of putting him in danger of reprisal on the chance of a radical change in government based on views expressed to me in a private conversation which, as I indicated both in the original and the edited version, I am not even certain that I repeated accurately and I am sure that were not revealed completely,
It is of course too early to guess what factions most likely will win out in Nicaragua. It is also too early to know with certainly rather than confidence whether external forces and outside actors are playing a part, for their own reasons, not necessarily greater Nicaraguan's reasons whether good or bad, in creating the dissatisfaction with the government and supporting the players who are acting on that dissatisfaction But, it is not surprising that there are some who believe that to be the case and who believe they have evidence for that belief.
I wish there was a transcript for what follows rather than only video but it is an hour long interview with Daniel Ortega edited down from two hours. But, there is, though, a synopsis of the takeaway of the website’s founder and reporter Max Boot, that includes the following:
Included also is a picture of some of the Nicaraguan student leaders meeting with Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz with their attached comment. My knee-jerk opinion is that if those two like something, I don't.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 3:57pm
nobody else will even admit reading the intended topic's subject.
That is such bullshit Lulu. I read the article and directly addressed it a few times. Instead of responding to my post you decided you wanted to now talk about Israel. I really didn't want to discuss Israel but I responded to that too. Look dude, you fucking put up these posts then refuse to have a discussion on the replies you get. That's why I avoid engaging on your posts and that's why I dropped out of this discussion.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 4:23pm
I stand corrected. I made a mistake. I see now that you did acknowledge reading the article.
I thought and still think that when the subject is influence by foreign governments on our elections, a severe lack of perspective is shown by demonizing one country , Russia, over what appears to be a small influence while totally ignoring the great, obvious, overt influence in particular directions by another foreign country for the explicit benefit of that country in ways that are not necessarily in the best interest of our country is pertinent to a conversation about "perspective". That is why, in the course of discussion I brought up Israel. And, I did so as part of a discussion of your reply. You said my arguments were simplistic and anyway, it is more important to talk about the influence of Facebook than about getting a better perspective on Russia. Really?
Regarding my refusal to discuss replies, I discussed, for example, point by point questions asked of me by AA in this very thread even though she has refused multiple times to answer simple questions when I asked her to explain a comment I did not understand.
Sorry my mistake made you so angry but saying that I refuse to discuss the replies I get is truly bullshit.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 7:08pm
What about Mariia Butina?
What about the Russian mole in our Moscow embassy 10 years that our head of DHS, Kirstjen Nielsen, let go? (covering it up with a massive dismissal of 750 employees while not arresting the mole).
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 8:03pm
Yeah, what about them? There is an almost infinite list of questions you can throw at me as accusations. What about you using the exact same snide remark in the past about someone going off their meds that made heads explode today when I used it?
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 8:23pm
What about Mariia Butina - change your mind about Russiagate? Just Russian "hysteria", "both sides do it"?(nope, no heads exploding - just poor time-worn theories)
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 8:27pm
Regarding your quoted piece, it isn't Max Boot, it's by Max Blumenthal. I read it, and the links - many of which are from the Washington Post going back years - including one from David Ignatius in 1991. My questions, Lulu, end up following the flow of what Peracles, arta and others have put to you: where's today?
eta: This is part of what I find so frustrating about what you write - there's a disconnect between what you clearly and strongly believe the US has been doing for decades and what your travels in the present and the nuances of the people who live in it tell you. Of course the US is a world-wide player, and of course other countries are, as well (read: Russia, China, etc.). No reasonable person disputes that that fact has both good and bad implications on the global citizenry and economy, even as the same reasonable people realize that with time comes change, and every change creates new realities and possibilities. Ignoring or forgetting the past is foolhardy; immersing oneself in it is foolish.
by barefooted on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 9:34pm
Thanks for the polite correction. I know the difference but had a brain fart after typing "Max". I am on a bad roll regarding details. I accidently conflated two closely related articles on the same subject from the home page of Grey Zone. This is the article with the interview with Ortega. The article I misidentified inn my comment is related and is important to the subject and This takes you again to that article in which Waddel is shown to brag of setting up what he called an insurrection in Nicaragua and it is also from 2018 but has a lot of older history, as you noted, to support its case.
P.S. to add that I disagree that noting the history and timeline of historical events that brought us to a place today where an "insurrection", or at least an attempted one deliberately promoted by our country and going on as we speak, is to foolishly immerse oneself in the past.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 08/02/2018 - 10:52pm
Ignoring or forgetting the past is foolhardy; immersing oneself in it is foolish.
That's what I wrote, Lulu. Where in that do you read that I suggest "noting the history and timeline of historical events" is equivalent to immersing oneself in the past?
by barefooted on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 4:39pm
Barefooted, You were talking directly to me in your comment which was to say why my way of addressing what I believe to be an ongoing important issue was frustrating to you. It began; "This is part of what I find so frustrating about what you write - ". Because you were talking directly to me about frustration with what I write, I took all of your comment in that paragraph to be directed at me or to be referring to me, not as at an abstracted idea that would be a mistake for anybody even if that were also true. Your final sentence speaking directly to me says: "Ignoring or forgetting the past is foolhardy, immersing oneself in it is foolish". Excuse me for thinking that the underlined quote referred to me if I am mistaken. I took the statement as suggesting that I am being foolish for being emersed in the past.
In my reply I was simply disagreeing with that conclusion, as I saw it, and saying instead that I was noting the flow of events from the known past and how they got us to the present and that I did not agree that I was being foolish to do so. I had no intention to misrepresent what you said.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 7:53pm
You're right, Lulu, that I was largely writing directly to you, and though I didn't intend it to be the case your assumption that I was, in effect, calling you foolish is fair. I apologize for not making myself clear, since I did indeed mean it as a generalization.
However, I also wrote this:
My questions, Lulu, end up following the flow of what Peracles, arta and others have put to you: where's today?
Within the prism of yesterday, is there any room to separate today from it? I acknowledge that the past is necessary for understanding the present - honestly, everyone with a brain does - and will hopefully advise the future. But is there any room for the idea of something fresh? I don't know, maybe a chance of breaking the mold without forgetting what created the thing?
by barefooted on Fri, 08/03/2018 - 8:23pm
Glad we now understand each other better. On the question of "where's today?" My answer to that along with evidence I have presented supporting my answer to that question quite a few times is what has pissed a few people off. In the particular area of foreign policy I say we are right where we have been for a long time.
To try to answer your last question in short form and in keeping with your closing metaphor, I say that no fresh thing will come from the same old mold. I would like to see that old mold broken and a fresh one introduced for a new product appropriate to new time.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 3:28pm
We're in toilet paper territory ... move below.
by barefooted on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 4:10pm
LULU
Facebook says Putin is back again sowing discord including among blacks and Latinos
https://www.theroot.com/2016-deja-vu-facebook-uncovers-disinformation-campaig-1828023260
White supremacists like Trump love Vlad
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 08/01/2018 - 5:21pm
Okay, Lulu. What's your prescription for fresh and new; a way to balance the scale while still keeping all the global balls in the air?
by barefooted on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 4:12pm
Whew! I have to check out for awhile but I will prime the pump by saying that to replace something "bad", if there might be anything "bad" about our policies then that "bad" has to be recognized as such. Balancing the scale may be too much to expect but tipping it in the right direction is worth shooting for.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 4:25pm
See ya soon, then.
by barefooted on Sat, 08/04/2018 - 4:26pm