MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
The violent, anti-democratic attack on the Capitol doesn’t fit the technical definition of a coup even though the president incited and encouraged it. That matters, experts say, because different actions are required to prevent this type of attack from harming democracy. A coup is an illegal attempt to take power through force or the threat of force, usually involving at least a faction of the military or formal security forces, though sometimes they are backed by paramilitaries or other armed groups. That’s not what happened in Washington yesterday.
Comments
this also says it well, mho...I don't know who Bessner is, I saw it only because it was retweeted by someone I follow and who follows my art news posts (has totally unrelated backgroung-a PHD activist in historic preservation and urban planning in NYC).
(see entire thread)
It's basically the mob vs. coup thing
.Language is important here because, lor example, you don't call Jim Crow lynch mobs a "coup". Like with that example, it is allowing a mob to do its will, hopefully to one's benefit, but it is not a rule of law, just the opposite! The mob is not controllable.
Coups actually have occurred quite frequently in response to mob rule taking over, where the majority of the people are upset enough by lack of rule of law under a leader that the military stages a coup to restore some rule of law!
The chaos that Trump stokes is really important to stress! Coups are the opposite, they are to install overly strict order. Stoking chaos in western democracies is also Putin's goal for a reason! Putin is also the opposite of mob rule, he runs a tight ship.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 2:23pm
Whoever Bessner is, he is floating upstream.
The article you posted from CNN about Pence said that Trump wanted Pence to support a coup.
I think the public understands what the term is meant to suggest
Trump was making an insane attempt to remain in power
As a result, people came to DC and assaulted the Capitol
People are focused on the damage Trump inflicted
Rats in the WH are leaving the ship
There are rumors of the 25th
If enough people accept the term as it is currently being used, Merrimack-Webster will update.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 2:31pm
So do you think Trump was instigating this because he was planning on installing a government with more extreme law and order? That is what you suggest by using the coup language.
It's not about your political judgments, it's about communicating well what you think is really going on.
BTW, Daniel Bessner Historian; Non-Resident Fellow @QuincyInst Contributing Editor @jacobinmag. Jacobin Magazine is left wing, and is named after the Jacobins, which would implay an intimate understanding of language about such topics
Edit to add: even trying to instigate revolution would be way more accurate than trying to stage a coup. I note that today the media is more commonly starting to use the term insurrectionists
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 3:05pm
As Bessner notes, coup is a term used by multiple sources
I am not the only one using the term coup
I noted that your CNN link used the term coup.
Trump was attempting to remain in office
CNN, and multiple others, used the term coup to describe his actions
People appear to understand the meaning
It may be that John McWhorter, the noted linguist, will put me in language jail
It is also possible that he will say coup is a word on the move
Words meanings change, often spontaneously
McWhorter notes this in his book "Words on the Move: Why English Won't - and Can't - Sit Still (Like, Literally)"
https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250143785
You continue to focus on me.
I provided you with links to multiple articles using "coup" to describe Trump's actions.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 3:04pm
NO I AM NOT FOCUSING ON YOU. You challenged my reply to oceankat's post and I was polite enough to recognize your reply with a reply in kind. GEEZ if you don't want feedback, don't reply to people!
It really wasn't about you BECAUSE IT IS AN OP-ED ADDRESSING ALL OF NYTIMES READERSHIP! The accuracy of the use of this term is a major topic in the news.
Yes, this is a "language police" thread, deal with that or stay out of it. It's not about you, it's about the language the media is using
Again, I note that today CNN has switched to using the term insurrection, and mho, that is more correct.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 3:13pm
Other sources use coup.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 3:22pm
CNN headline updated 2:09 PM ET today
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/politics/trump-pence-riot/index.html
CNN headline 12:36 PM ET today
'Insurrection,' 'coup' and 'sedition.' Here's what each term means
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/insurrection-coup-sedition-meaning-trnd/index.html
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 3:35pm
Yes, those examples are the loose use of the term I object to.
by moat on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 4:00pm
To be precise, the CNN article says: "... the President's demands to engineer a procedural coup that would keep Trump in power." The angry mob was incited after Pence refused to try that.
As I argue in the other thread, the "procedure" would not have been enough. Trump is not smart enough to to understand that. In any case, the pressure of the mob weakened the protest of the legislators and has brought dishonor to Trump's name.
I resist the use of the term being applied too generally because there needs to be a way to differentiate the struggle for power within an institution from the wholesale destruction of it. There are plenty examples of when the first turned into the other. But if everything is what Pinochet did, his crime is diminished.
by moat on Thu, 01/07/2021 - 3:29pm
Riot collusion - why, how?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 11:31am
more definition of the word coup, in real time, going on right now:
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 2:26pm
related
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 2:29pm
What is in play here is whether the accepted definition of the word is changing.
Trump attempted to remain in office past his due date
He does not have military backup
The failed overthrow is being championed by the President
Mitt Romney calls it insurrection
Biden calls it sedition
Coumo, Gay, and Vindman call it a coup
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/insurrection-coup-sedition-meaning-trnd/index.html
I don't see people being confused about the fact that Trump attempted/is attempting to remain in office.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 2:36pm
Most linguists agree that English has the largest vocabulary of any language. Most every word has multiple synonyms that can be used interchangeably. But there are subtle differences and people with a rich vocabulary often choose their words carefully to convey that nuance. Some people with small vocabularies don't get that nuance or they prefer to choose words more for the connotation than the definition out of a desire to appeal to emotions to incite. While I think there are other words with definitions that more clearly fit what happened I'm not going to debate what is the best synonym. Attempted coup is a adequate word to use to describe this situation.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 2:56pm
I don't see democrats in congress trying to get the military to remove the president. They're just trying to get some clarity about what might constitute an illegal order or at most trying to convince military leaders that some order ought to be considered illegal and disobeyed.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 3:00pm
Amazing video
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 4:03pm
is just like the Storming of the Bastille and CLEARLY the participants know it, they are all excited and some even mention "historic" it is definitely an "insurrection",
here's what I said when it started happening while I everyone was watching the Senate speeches start. The rally speakers inspired it. I don't know for sure if it was right after Rudy spoke or some other, later I saw videos of some others being pretty incendiary, too, but his speech sure sounded like "to the barricades!" to me:
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 4:21pm
All good fun til someone puts an eye out (or ruptures a cardial chamber). Kinda changed the whole freedumb energy.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 4:24pm
I love the view in the beginning of your video of the 6 or so cops being swarmed by the mob where one of them raises his tiny little night stick hesitantly and then puts his arm down going "wtf am I thinking"? And all these people, including Michelle Obama herself, are ridiculously dragging racial culture wars into the discussion, suggesting that if they were black they would have shot them or something. GIVE ME A BREAK! A FEW FRIGGING COPS CANNOT SHOO T AT A RIOTING MOB WITH A COUPLE PISTOLS! THEY'D MAKE THINGS WORSE and be mauled to death in a few minutes pronto. You need a lined up firing squad to do that. They wisely backed down and then gave up because it was a mob!
Again: large announced protests, not mobs, are roughly and toughly controlled by police precisely because they don't want the protest to turn into a mob because with a mob they have lost control of any chance of keeping the peace.And let's further get real here: if I were a cop I would certainly make the prejudicial judgment that a protest specifically about being angry about police themselves and even challenging the idea of having police was more dangerous than any other kind of protest, no? That is not an unreasonable presumption, like it or not. You are a protester who does not like police, maybe you are for anarchy, yes?
The Capitol Hill police planners were stupid and made stupid prejudicial judgments that the "Stop the Steal" crowd had preference for law and order. But it's not an uncommon stupidity, many don't get that many on the far right are just as pro-anarchy as far left extremists. It's a real stupid presumption, time to get smart about it! They like Trump because he is basically anarchic. So does Putin! They are not "Republicans". Republicans need to denounce the anarchic extremists on their side. Just as Democrats and pro-black-lives matter types and Squad supporters need to denounce the anarchic extremists on their side instead of fucking inviting them to march alongside. (And while their are at it denounce the "defund" and/or "abolish" supporters, go with Biden type lingo on police, like "reform".)
As the Capitol Hill police retired veteran in this article said
THEY SHOULD HAVE. That part is like 9/11, bad intel, bad prep.
But presuming a huge crowd protesting AGAINST POLICE could get dangerous? No matter what color of skin! That's a no-brainer! Again, give me a break. The two are not equivalent. Any idiot would prepare for the possibility of mob violence with an anti-police protest.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 5:00pm
I think the suggestion isn't that if the protestors were black the cops on the ground would have done more but that if they were black the police presence would have been significantly greater from the start. That's possible imo. The questions aren't about what the cops did in the situation. From what I saw that struggled more than expected in the face of the numbers confronting them. The questions are why was the police presence so small? Why wasn't back up deployed more quickly and in sufficient numbers when the violence started?
Yes but there was plenty of evidence on social media before the event from the president and his minions calling for violence. I think even without the president egging them on that day they were already fully primed and it would still have happened. Why did they never consider a worse case scenario and at least make some what if preparations?
by ocean-kat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 5:12pm
That's where their stupid racial prejudice lies.
They thought a gathering of white people who are pro-Trump would be pro-law-and-order.
They presume now that people with black skin will be pro-Black Lives Matter and anti-police.
Not enough understand the seditionist anarchic and anti-federal-government nature of right wing extremists and how they are feeding the larger group of Trump fans that crap. (And how many left wing extremists have similar goals.)
(I believe there were definitely instigators in that crowd who believe that stuff from reading Qanon shit or whatever and carried badges of local forces or evidence of military service! Lots of Boogaloo types are ex-military, hate cops and Fed cops above all, used BLM events to fuel that fire.)
Also confusing the matter is all the comparing of Trump to authoritarian leaders! One presumes authoritarian leaders will have tough, almost cruel law and order states. But Trump also advocates for chaos and anarchy for those who are on "his side" and is for cleaning the federal government swamp of all bureaucrats. He used sending in Feds in Portland, this was actually unusual for him ideologically. He was trying out the "law and order" thing. I felt they should have been I.D. better, but at the same time, exerting Federal order on local chaos attacking a Federal Courthouse was not a bad idea. Lefties can't have it both ways either. They shouldn't be against Feds coming to protect Fed property from locals if they are for big government!
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 5:29pm
Also I would like to bring up that with most of the summer Black Lives Matter-related events that broke into mob behavior or rioting and looting the police did LIKEWISE give up! Especially where there were small forces to begin with. They just let it happen. I.E., Santa Monica's main drag was totally looted and ravaged by side crowds going right along with the protests.
Heard Colin Powell speak on TV the other day, I think it was on CNN, he brought up the Rodney- King-related riots in L.A., when the police just gave up and let it happen, because with mobs, it would just mean more bloodshed to try to stop it (again unless you bring swat team like force in mass numbers) Asian-Americans were left to protect their own stores with rifles. Powell was actual recounting how he helped get Army forces in there as well as National Guard to restore order, he was bringing up that issue, that normally you want to stay away from bringing actual military into a civil situation, but when it goes that far, sometimes it's regrettably unavoidable.
The big picture meme here: the idea of mobs forming, insurgencies included, needs preventive action. Once you are lax on that, you open a can of worms that might end up in an actual military coup to restore order.
And people shouting "abolish police" are not a democracy's friend! They are anarchists.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 5:13pm
In bringing up what happened in LA, it needs more context than the cops being overwhelmed on a particular day. If one wants to take preventive measures, it must involve addressing the problems of applying law equally more adequately than just saying nothing happened on a certain day. Contempt has consequences.
by moat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 5:28pm
The discussion is about the actions of law enforcement in D.C.
Law enforcement tear-gassed peaceful demonstrators in D.C.
https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/local/protests/capitol-rioters-get-police-deference-claim-congressmembers/65-cd39ec7c-23bb-4b05-9ff4-fbb053f28986
Even after the Capitol was breached, police were taking selfies with the rioters and escorting them down the stairs
Has nothing to do with BLM or defunding the police.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 6:01pm
The discussion is about the actions of law enforcement in D.C.
Nope, it's about protection of the Capitol building and its grounds. Mayor Bowser and her police force wanted to have as little to do with that as possible. As it is not their responsibility. Were dragged in after Cap Police and Fed authorities could not handle what they were supposed to handle.
AND that is related to my point that dragging in racial prejudice issues into this is a nonsense distraction, i.e. if they were black, it woulda been different. FACT: Cap police weren't ready to treat anyone toughly, white or black. Green martians too. Ok, I'll give that maybe if the rally had been for Al Qaeda the Cap Police would have made better preparations...
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 7:18pm
Bang!
From that JaydenX video you posted.
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 11:47am
Lots of larf.
Here's the cop/security guard who died
Should i post it twice/3x?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:21pm
unfortunately that Mohammed Bazzi tweet I quoted has gone away, the link no longer is good so I couldn't repaste it, but after the Breslin quote it was a video clip of Rudy saying that after trying everything else it was "time for combat" not too long before the storming started happening.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 4:29pm
Holy Complicity, Batman.
Edit: What is most intriguing to me about the footage is that some people entered without being resisted while others were held off. It reminds of trying to get into a nightclub in Manhattan during the Eighties.
by moat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 5:12pm
Following are some synonyms of "coup".
overthrow takeover ousting deposition regime change
None of those words used individually, with the possible exception of overthrown, come close to describing the totality of what the word "coup" is intended to relate. The word has no antonym that would ever be seen in isolation as coup's opposite.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 4:47pm
One way to think about the word is to compare it with the French expression of coup de grâce which means killing in the name of putting a being out of its misery.
by moat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 5:06pm
There is one defensive strategy that would have worked, I believe, in this particular case where a particular piece of real estate was the target. All the cops could have pulled back to within the building early on. Loud speakers would then announce that anyone caught beyond the outdoor barricades when reinforcements arrived would be held in violation of the law and would be prosecuted to its full extent. Then they would announce that anyone attempting to come within twenty feet of the building without authorization would be shot. Maybe instead say actual attempt to enter the building in any way. They could start with birdshot or rubber bullets and escalate from there if necessary. I doubt there were Kamikazes in that crowd ready to commit suicide for their cause. That plan would not solve any of the problems that led to the event, it might well escalate tensions as much as what did happened will among the crazies, but I believe the Capital building would not have been breached and probably nobody would have died. Get ready for more social upheaval, guerilla tactics by the crazies, and more police state reaction.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 6:43pm
YOU should apply for the now open positions of Senate Sargeant at Arms and/or Chief of Capitol Police.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 6:51pm
that said, they prolly didn't have rubber bullets stocked, methinks they basically went on the presumption that all visitors would be genteel ladies and gentlemen?
I read but did not double check the accuracy of, that the woman killed was shot by a Secret Service person on duty there protecting Pence. Wondering now if Cap police even have much in weaponry at all; the quotes I have seen by people like Maxine Waters suggest not, i.e., she said she kept asking if they had everything they needed and the chief said yeah yeah yeah. Seemed to suggest they basically rely on calling in other forces ahead of time if they have dangerous situations? And they didn't think they had a dangerous situation? (Again, dejas vus of the 9/11 story.)
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 7:01pm
The woman getting shot. A [properly] trained shooter did not have to go for a kill shot in that instance.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 7:17pm
There is training and there are rules of engagement. It doesn't help to conflate the two.
by moat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 7:42pm
i do not understand what point you are trying to make. I do know that rules of engagement are set up to guide reactions and set limits in particular kinds of encounters. Maybe the shooter was in full compliance with his RoE when he went for a head shot at almost point blank range. Maybe his training was the reason he hit his target. It is my personal opinion that he could probably have wounded the woman to the same ultimate effect and should have attempted that instead of killing her if he thought a gunshot was called for. What the hell, a shot into the ceiling would have almost certainly stopped that crowd just like the shot in the neck did.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 8:04pm
The thing about guns is that they kill first and ask questions later. Rules of engagement that can make that less automatic require a lot of discipline. When military outfits are told to observe that discipline, it is understood they are risking their lives to obey.
I am all for training that stops all possible shooters from shooting when things get dicey. But that requires more than sending a memo around that such actions are not policy.
by moat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 8:23pm
It *did* kinda take the wind outta the protest though, gotta admit! (not sure what a head shot would've done)
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 8:53pm
as of April 2016 Capitol Police: A Spending Force - Roll Call
by EmmaZahn on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 7:30pm
thank you, emma!
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 7:36pm
I don't see how the observations are related. Noting how budgets are not proportional to results is one thing. Observing that people failed to do their jobs is another.
by moat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 7:46pm
It's just a data point that indicates the Capitol Police had the capacity and, as
the opthe This Was A Coup Attempt article indicates, the crowd-control training to largely prevent. It is really too soon to tell. However, whether the breach was a result of incompetence or intent is an open question and one that must be asked and answered.*Edited because I forgot which coup thread I was on. :-/
by EmmaZahn on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 8:20pm
Point taken.
It is too soon to tell what happened.
by moat on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 8:31pm
No thanks.I do not want to shoot anybody or give anyone else orders to do so. I also do not want to be the target of guerilla tactics on my way home. A city is ripe ground for those methods.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 7:07pm
The terminology wars, continued
https://www.politico.eu/article/us-capitol-donald-trump-riot-call-it-what-it-is-an-attempted-coup/
Presidential historian, Michael Beschloss
https://www.ft.com/content/5c471c49-de90-4f5f-9c91-19be0daa491c
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 01/08/2021 - 11:58pm
As a riot it was astonishingly successful. As a coup it was a joke. But ok, if you want to go all hyperbolic and hyperventilate over it, it was a Failed coup.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:30am
Folks 'round here... it's just...
An addiction... They get a rush from being contrary...
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 11:59am
OGD
The responses are often humorous
The important thing is that out in the real world people are interested in answers
Here is it easier to argue about the use of the word "coup" than asking whether there was collusion with the police
There is a possible threat on the 17th
Biden's entire Presidential Secret Service team is being changed
There is likely concern about the loyalties of the current team
Can we be certain that the inauguration is protected?
Trump will not be in the audience
Trump supporters may see a target rich environment
Oh well, nothing to see here.
Edit to add:
Thanks for the video clip
I haven't thought of that comedian in years.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:00pm
Are you suggesting that my objections to how the word is used is in any way an attempt to distract from the need to investigate the matter of complicity as aggressively as possible?
by moat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:06pm
No
It is an easier discussion
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:13pm
If the two discussions are not at the expense of the other, why measure the difference?
by moat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 2:09pm
The comment was not a swipe at you
I am sorry if you see it that way
I was expressing my opinion
We simply disagree on the issue.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 2:41pm
I did not take it personally. I am interested in separating issues carefully in order to pursue the criminals to the full extent of the law. I burn with the desire to see all of the people who let this happen pay a big price.
You haven't actually challenged my arguments so far, just treated them as not critical to other matters. That is fine. I am not interested in winning a debate where I am the only participant.
by moat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 2:51pm
If you are talking about the use of the word coup, I think that I have made it clear that I do not agree with your limited definition
I have cited others who use the word coup to describe the events on the 6th
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 3:27pm
Citing others is not defending the use of an idea. Arguments based upon authority are the weakest kind.
by moat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 3:34pm
I used the links to show that the meaning of the word is changing.
Trump had the idea that he could remain in office
That is all I got
Sorry that it does satisfy your criteria
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 4:50pm
You are calling for the meaning to change but don't take any responsibility for why it should. If it was just my criterion, it is true that it would be wrong to bother other people about it.
The argument you present is that other people have done the work for you. Pretty weak beer.
by moat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 5:01pm
I have no power to change the meaning of the word.
I am not making a demand.
The meaning seems to have changed, if it sticks will be because articles, pundits, and average people on the street change the meaning of the word.
The action taken by Trump and his minions are unprecedented
The word coup is being attached to Trump's actions
The goal, however magical, was for Trump to remain in power.
If you sleep better with the word insurrection, have at it.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 5:27pm
Adding the last sentence is a taunt. You never own that part.
by moat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 5:33pm
Why would I deny the taunt?
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 6:36pm
What?
by moat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 6:39pm
I guess 9/11 was a coup
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:19pm
Apples oranges
Trump, Guiliani, etc suggested violence to keep Trump in office
The term coup is applied
9/11 was not an act to change the presidency
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:25pm
There was no proof of collusion with US government officials so not a coup. 9/11 was an invasion by Saudi Arabia
by ocean-kat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:35pm
Or a messy layover
(did anyone look into collusion?
hard to see what you ignore)
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:43pm
We can't discount the idea that it was a Cheney coup to become president. But that seems unlikely. He already was the de facto president of the US. What's the benefit to him to make it de jure?
by ocean-kat on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 1:51pm
Easier to shoot ppl in the face?
A sop for his Scowl and Cross-bones brethren?
Could stop hearing that "mano-a-mano" anecdote?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 4:05pm
I am disappointed that you are using those old canards instead of doing something with this new one. I will try not to expect a homer all the time...
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 7:31pm
The "Old Canard" was duck hunting, after all. If it walks like a duck and shoots like a duck... oh hell, even Homer got sidetracked here and there.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 8:32pm
PP, actually, the almost never mentioned Senate investigation on 9/11 did look at 'collusion' and intelligence failures. Committee member Senator Bob Graham wrote one of the best books on the apparently rogue ("coincidental") Saudi governmenti financial involvement in his 2004 book, "Intelligence Matters: The CIA, the FBI, Saudi Arabia, and the Failure of America's War on Terror". link
As to the " coup", Senator Sasse of Nebraska (R) said on Hugh Hewitt's radio show Trump was excited about the capitol violence, couldn't understand why his staff and others were not, and expressed the belief it would allow him to stop Biden. link
by NCD on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 3:36pm
A man happy for every occasion, that's our Donald.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 4:06pm
These word games might be about as productive as we can get. Saudi Arabia did not "invade" us, it attacked us.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 2:06pm
Technically I'm not sure they cleared customs nor did they receive permission to land. "Violation of US airspace"? Inciting people to leap?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 4:12pm
Anyway, no one could foresee terrorists flying planes into buildings
https://digbysblog.net/2021/01/they-didnt-see-this-coming/
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 4:17pm
They get a rush from being contrary...That's truly a lol, look who's talking!!! 100% projection! Physician, heal thyself. Nearly everything I've seen you post since you returned seems like trolling to start a barroom brawl and you seem to get pissed when your targets won't take you up on it. Usually people try to read the zeitgeist of a site and try to fit in, not you. You seem almost to be bringing meta issues over from somewhere else, fighting ghosts.
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 4:27pm
[Aside for those actually interested in the linguistics and semiology problem with the word "coup". The wikipedia entry under the full original term coup d'etat is actually quite good, sophisticated and detailed, admitting to problems in conflicting usage starting already with their point # 2, Usage of the Phrase, continuing on with alternatives that might be more precise in certain situations and cultures, a list of related terms, and a scholars' list of actual past events that most users deem to fit the term....]
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/09/2021 - 4:46pm
Video embedded below from WaPo Jan. 28 Was the Capitol riot a coup attempt?
Did the attack that followed President Donald Trump’s speech on Jan. 6 amount to an attempted coup, or is it more properly classified as an insurrection? And why does that matter?
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 3:18am
I concur with the observation that the absence of state military involvement is important in describing the event; Especially since that very military expressly declared who they thought the enemy was before the event.
On the other hand, the absence of support from military resources on 1/6 suggests levels of influence that will take time to sort out.
The idea that the vote results could have been changed that day is the part I would like to have be laid to rest. It was not possible. And if it was done despite that limit, that is what could fairly be described as an attempted coup, with all the civil war some seem to be hankering for
by moat on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 8:42pm
good to have your thoughts. I was never comfortable with the use of "coup" as adequate communication but I fully admit my linguistics are strictly intutive, from a lifetime of reading. I definitely liked what the expert in the video said! It was very clear. Especially about the seriousness level, how coup does not add extra in that regard. You categorize first, then you talk about how serious, not invest seriousness level to certain words over others.
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 10:05pm
The way I look at it is that one could accept that a crime needs a strong response without labeling it the worst crime imaginable. If only the most extreme crimes are worth taking note of, suffering something less than that becomes less objectionable. That logic really pisses me off.
by moat on Fri, 01/29/2021 - 10:31pm
looking like a real genuine textbook COUP D'ETAT may be happening in Myamar right now:
Myanmar army detains country's leader Aung San Suu Kyi, president and other high-profile political leaders amid coup fears, according to multiple reports
The Southeast Asian country's civilian leader Aung San Suu Kyi was detained in an early morning raid on Monday along with Myanmar's President Win Myint and other senior ruling party figures, according to Reuters, Channel News Asia and the BBC. Late last week several diplomatic missions in Myanmar issued a statement warning against a military coup as tension flared between the civilian government and the country's powerful military following the general election in November. The new parliament in Myanmar was due to meet on Monday for the first time since Suu Kyi's landslide win in the election.
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/31/2021 - 7:34pm
done, it's a coup:
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/31/2021 - 9:32pm