MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
“ With special delight (Lee) saw that officers would be allowed to save face by retaining their sidearms and horses and could resume their lives unmolested.”
Grant : Penguin Books 2017 Ron Chernow page 509
*************************************
“The following month(Ackerman) portrayed the Klan not as bands of isolated ,wild-eyed ruffians but
spanned the entire community."
page 707
next election was delayed for 90 years.
page795
(White Democrats ' ) " remember an oppresive peace on honorable men who laid down their arms"
But the South never laid down its arms
Chernow 857
page 857
Comments
I think this bit of news hasn't been emphasized enough, wondering where I should put it, then I noticed your post again, thought it might be a good place:
by artappraiser on Wed, 12/02/2020 - 10:33pm
We learned in elementary school to be properly proud of Grant's sending the confederates homes with
their horse and weapons for the late planting.
And....
Grant page 575
"Political tensions flared ...July 30 ..when a white mob backed by police...many of them Confederate...veterans fired...
until the floor with blood ...the riot left 34 blacks and 3 white Republicans -the "moderates" Flavius- dead..
Late planting.Fl
by Flavius on Fri, 12/04/2020 - 3:07pm
You are not painting the pretty picture required.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/03/2020 - 1:39pm
The permission to leave as gentlemen got the people producing the war to go home.The privilege separating officers from enlisted troops was preserved by disarming the latter after the surrender.
These conditions certainly played a part in overturning the efforts of Reconstruction. They don't reveal what might have happened if the conditions had been more punitive and humiliating.
by moat on Thu, 12/03/2020 - 4:47pm
Or, or, or.. ? If enjoyment as a gentlemen was conditioned on being one.
by Flavius on Thu, 12/03/2020 - 5:17pm
I was not defending the privilege, just trying to figure out how it became so powerful.
by moat on Thu, 12/03/2020 - 7:36pm
To add some facts to "what we learned in elementary school... about the late planting".
Supreme Court Justice Joseph P. Bradley, ruled the federal conviction, by jury, of white defendants in the 1873 Colfax Massacre in Louisiana was unconstitutional. This decision ended federal protection from white terror, murder etc for blacks in the Deep South.
The book, The Day Freedom Died describes the 1873 federal prosecution in New Orleans, convictions by jury, and then the dismissal of the conviction by Bradley, a decision later affirmed the complete Supreme Court.
In a decision that gave free reign to white terrorists the Supreme Court ruled that murder and terrorism is not a federal offense, and that the 14th Amendment to protect civil rights applied only to the actions to deprive rights by state government, not individuals or groups of white terrorists.
14th Amendment:
Murder and/or lynching, or terror acts like burning down homes or businesses of blacks was not deemed a federal crime in the reconstruction era after 1873. In the unlikely event a state prosecuted such crimes, the terror threats against jurors, prosecutors, and/or white supremacists on a jury would make such action a futile enterprise.
The power of the federal government to prosecute lynching by mobs was still a controversy as late as the 1948 election, as such authority was considered an affront to "state's rights".
by NCD on Thu, 12/03/2020 - 9:59pm
Just checking, was the title of the book "The Day Freedom Died"?
Thanks for this.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/03/2020 - 9:28pm
Yes, by Charles Lane. Corrected the title. Book starts a little slow with background info, gets into the gritty details and events soon enough. I got Kindle copy.
by NCD on Thu, 12/03/2020 - 10:02pm
I do the same. Helps being able to refer back to books easily.
Helps to have a grasp of our true history.
During the Civil War there was the Fort Pillow Massacre
Does give you the warm and fuzzies about Confederates
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/03/2020 - 10:15pm
After risking their lives pre -War , the former abilitionists seemed relatively less active after
wards. .Wonder why.
by Flavius on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 11:23am
I think that the idea of forgiveness is a strong tribal urge.
Lincoln thought the nation would heal if Confederate were forgiven
Today, there is a belief that not assessing whether Trump et. al committed crimes will lead to peace.
There is no evidence that the Republican base wants peace.
Very few Republicans in Congress concede that Biden is the legal President-elect.
I suppose the answer to the moderation of the abolitionists is simply human nature
In truth former Confederates were vicious when dealing with so-called carpetbaggers
Hope springs eternal in every human breast
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 12:23pm
You're going to bollocks that up, eh? Lincoln was hard scrabble compromiser, & would have stood a better chance projecting tough love on the South, but instead he was shot, and succeeded by Andrew Johnson, a Tennessee Southerner & "War Democrat" who pushed for easy terms for the south over the objections of the Republican Congress, including opposing the Civil Rights bill of 1866 and any mention of black suffrage as a "state matter". Interestingly had Johnson not survived his impeachment trial by 1 vote, he would've been replaced by the pro-women's suffrage Senator Wade, the Senate pro tempore from Ohio, who might have derailed Grant's inept presidency.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 1:44pm
Lincoln on amnesty
and
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/25/this-day-in-politics-dec-25-1868-1074077
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 1:56pm
So you agree? Or what?
Johnson's version of amnesty largely retained rights of slaveholders, opposite to Lincoln's . But Abe got shot, and Andy pushed his version - even if overridden by Congressional Rebubs, Johnson's stance encouraged Southern resistance to reform, especially in opposing the Fourteenth Amendment.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 1:59pm
My statement
Lincoln offered amnesty and pardons
I was discussing the actions of Lincoln
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/lincoln-issues-proclamation-of-amnesty-and-reconstruction
It does not seem that Lincoln was going to run roughshod over the South
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 2:16pm
He was killed 15 months later.
Odd that we would pin such a practical man down on earlier words. Here's his *last speech*:
Lincoln was unique, and his approach to shepherding through Reconstruction would have undoubtedly diverted from asimplified "just the facts, ma'am" of his proposed plans mid-war.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 2:42pm
You make up your version of his future (past?) and I'll make up my version.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 3:06pm
He was killed. He had no future. I just quoted his attitude towards sticking with bad plans, and I've reference before how he navigated uncomfortable decisions in the Minnesota/Dakota's Indian wars - with gusto, attention to detail, carefully splitting the difference between the hard core indian haters and basic rights & humanity of the natives themselves.. You just quoted a mid-war early stab at a surrender protocol as if it's the only thing to say on the matter, case closed.
I start to understand what you see in OGD.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 3:17pm
You created a story that fit your narrative.
The future (past?) term was acknowledging that we make a guess.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 3:31pm
Huh? I quoted his last speech. That's "creating a story"?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 3:36pm
You guess what he would have done.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 4:13pm
No i fucking didn't, you [insert approoriate epithet here] - i reference the historical facts of what he said *last* and what he did in other situations to imply he would have been more creative and less directly obvious than "I am a Southern racist" Andrew Johnson who made Reconstruction how we know it. Which is funny, because you spend a lot of time around here putting words and actions into MLKs and other dead people's mouths and behavior.
It's also hilarious because I'm the one who keeps pointing out there's an ethical quandary in choosing as #1 a prez who presided over internecine warfare as a solution to national problems, and instead if waging it on the defensible principle of "it's immoral to own slaves", he did it in the principle that "you just left a dysfunctional relationship four score and 7 [5] years ago, so now you're stuck with this one forever". But to his defense, there's probably no way he could have gotten a clear mandate to launch the war based on eliminating slavery, and certainly not black voting rights/full citizenship, when he couldn't even do it with border states, and northern states outside New England didn't give blacks much in the way of voting rights much less full equality. It took a full army occupation to do that sleight of hand.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 4:24pm
I have no clue what you are arguing.
If Lincoln was arguing for harsher action against the South, would action did he take in the 15 months prior to his death that support he was going to get tougher?
Fellow Republicans thought Lincoln was too lenient
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardons_for_ex-Confederates
Your need to call me a moron solidifies that you are not different in the intolerance of opposing opinions you argue is the position of the Woke. Pot ..... Kettle.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 5:06pm
Uh, actions during war diff from actions when war won.
Like doh.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 5:26pm
Kettle
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 7:39pm
Ma & Pa Kettle ??
(
alt archve )
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 8:43pm
thnks 4
the link
those 2
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 2:56am
Grant , Lincoln , Lee . Moat? To varying extents shared that urge and maybe ( unrealistically) expected it to be a more prevalent reaction among the Reb tents than actually transpired.
Having been a participant ,didn't necessarily mean you were weird,. But at least you behaved differently from most other folks.
by Flavius on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 2:13pm
Do you mean being a participant in some shared code of honorable behavior?
Your original post presents the conditions of the surrender as a forerunner to what happened in the South after the war. That clearly was the case on many levels. But I don't understand those events as opportunities to have done something better by the people calling the shots then. The Union held together by the weakest of rubber bands. Not letting the officers return to "polite society" would have been its own kind of conflict.
Nostradamus is not answering my calls.
by moat on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 6:26pm
Yeah. Unrealistically . As it turned out.
by Flavius on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 9:07am
If you read the book we mentioned, and a little history of the era:
1. Exhaustion with continuing to send troops to police the Deep South- in often futile hunts up and down rivers, across 'wilderness' for white supremacist terrorists, and against the prevalent Deep South white public mood, including rich white businessmen and also not popular with white voters in the north who increasingly had other concerns (see #2).
2. The crash of 1873, the first 'great depression'. Note although Republicans maintained control of the presidency until 1884, in 1876 Hayes was the first president to lose the popular vote, while barely winning the electoral vote which was in fact very much in dispute. Grant knew the Republicans were in trouble in his second term, budgets were cut, funds for military operations in the South were hard to come by.
3. To add to what was mentioned above, from the Bradley decision, killing a black voter only became a federal crime if:
But - 'Intent' of course, is virtually impossible to prove, there could be a dozen other reasons purported by the assailant. and even if witnesses to intent were available, their lives might be forfeit to testify in federal court.
by NCD on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 12:56pm
As I noted above, amnesty was on Lincoln's mind
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 1:58pm
I think one reason the abolitionists became less influential is that their viewpoint became less aligned with industrialists and bankers after the war.
The issue of whether there could be new slave states or not had a wooden stake driven through it so the expansionist spirit that had led to the war was now the sole prerogative of the Union. The scope of the enterprise became much larger. Sherman's march to the sea was turned toward the Pacific ocean.
by moat on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 3:40pm
Key was the 2nd Industrial Revolution, a new bout of European immigration to man the factories, the heavy expansion of railroads largely bypassing the South, and i imagine a good amount of transfer of wealth from southern plantation owners to northern creditors. While cotton was important, wealth in steel, coal, large scale cattle runs/meat packing abetted by refrigeration, etc. changed the game completely. The south didn't have the population % nor money to be a key player after the war.
[the US had 39 million in the 1870 census, less than 1/4 in the South, with NY, PA and Ohio having the same as the whole south - demographics had moved on.]
A big change in the post-war industry was reorganizing especially northern textile factories as corporations and the much greater output through greater number of spindles (*not* am increase in factories). Northern production went from 1/6 England's in 1860 to 1/2 forty-five years later. The south finally built spinning factories post-war, but nowhere near the size of the north's.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/7048905.pdf
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 4:02pm
In addition, the expansions of railroads to the West was developed to control the territory at the same time. The military developed by the Civil War was integral to gaining that control. Those old boys at Appomattox had a new bag.
by moat on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 5:08pm
absolutely as in: doh. If it hadn't happened they would have had to find something else, as just like now, and much more so because the death count was so high, everyone was eager to move on, enough already about
Trump fansthe Confederacy, fuggeaboutit, we did what we could and that's all we can bear, the rest will or won't sort itself out. So Jim Crow flourished, but southern black citizens also started moving north in large numbers...by artappraiser on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 5:34pm
re: post-war industry was reorganizing especially northern textile factories
SPEAKING OF--serendipity first thing I saw over at Twitter, the Tweeter colorizes old photos--
here's August 1910--you don't really get that "free at last" joy out of Addie here either, ya think?
People were different, people thought different. It takes a village and a whole lot of time to change some of these things.
by artappraiser on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 7:29pm
Like a group puzzle, breakout room...
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 7:37pm
The golf course lay so near the plant that almost every day the children working at the mill..could see the men at play
by Flavius on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 8:08pm
excellent point, and as more became intrigued by the westward the course of empire thing to the non-states, more learned about completely different cultures with which to compare, not black and white as it were:
from Indian Slavery Once Thrived in New Mexico. Latinos Are Finding Family Ties to It.
By Simon Romero @ NYTimes.com, Jan. 28, 2018
bigger excerpt on Dagblog here.
I think too little has been written about how expansion started to change the eastern American culture of the time from a predominately Anglo-Brit mindset, many are just starting to write about it now. Not to mention that warfare was going on there with the "natives" for a very long time, just didn't start up with Custer. Edit to add: I put "natives" in quotes because they were separate tribes who fought with each other about territory, too. There's no such thing as one "native american tribe" occupying "the west". Heck whypipple from the east one big tribe of several occupying the San Francisco area since 1848.
by artappraiser on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 5:35pm
I find the second half of the aforementioned Peonage Act of 1867 especially interesting, because it does indicate an intent that any agent of the federal government, military or civilian, must continue to prosecute any incidence of anything appearing to be slavery:
edit to add: curious about the value of the fines outlined, I used this inflation calculator which though not entirely accurate for this purpose, it gives and idea that the range would be $17,593.78 to $87,968.92. A wealthy person might think the chance of a fine like that worth the risk and train "peons" or slaves to simply say to outsiders that they are "servants" to maintain the lifestyle.
by artappraiser on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 6:06pm
Well, the New Mexican stuff happened as a collision between different imperial enterprises.The real estate wars that happened afterwards is it's own bizarre tale.
It is hard to keep up.
by moat on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 6:13pm
Cabeza de Vaca washed up on the Florida panhandle, and spent 10 years enslaved by one tribe then another, before he finally made it to the Spanish base in Galveston, 1000 miles or so away. Oh, and mosquito-borne malaria - yum. History - everyone was bastards.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 6:45pm
Anyone know of historians who have promoted the theory that the primary cause of the Civil War was economic, with abolition a necessary but secondary objective? Most political upheavals are related first to the economy....?
by NCD on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 6:21pm
That is an interesting and difficult request.
The people who just want to make it about one thing or another are not interested in the multiple causes approach.
by moat on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 6:48pm
Yet slaveholding was a more emotional issue than most.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 6:56pm
Was slavery mentioned in secession documents?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 7:04pm
Yes.
Is this some kind of test?
by moat on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 7:12pm
I think the multiple causes argument is a dodge
South Carolina, for example, made it clear that failure of non-slaveholding states to enforce the Fugitve Slave Act and the possibility of the Federal government ending slavery were the main issue.
The multiple causes were a post-loss argument.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 7:52pm
rmrd still doesn't get the Scotch-Irish bit in Appalachia, for example. He sees his own grudges, and can't imagine others have theirs, even possibly for good cause. He prolly doesn't realize Forrest Gump is pretty insulting, the more so by being "popular" or even thought accurate (by some). Certainly not issues that compete with keeping humans enslaved, but it is good to know your adversaries and their thinking if they're going to live in your brain rent-free as they say most of your life. The taxation issue South Carolina fought with Andrew Jackson in the 1820s was important re:self-determination, the prerogatives of states - and he was a Southerner. Anyway, "a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest".
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 8:06pm
Nah
In the case of the Civil War, I was just noting what Confederate states gave as reasons when they left the Union, and what Southern members of Congress said in their departure speeches.
I also got the part about draft riots in NYC, and the fact that a rich white Northerner had ways out of the fight.
The poor white guy thought that it wasn't his fight
Regarding economics, the 1619 argument about slave owners in 1776 says that the owners wanted to keep their slaves to keep their wealth
The Civil War says slave owners wanted to keep their slaves to keep their wealth.
The message I got from Forrest Gump, the Black guy always dies.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 8:51pm
To observe multiple causes were at work is not to discount the central importance of slave ownership to the Confederacy. But the practice did not develop in a vacuum. To treat it as a self generated principle unaffected by the circumstances of that place and time is to draw a recursive circle where it becomes isolated from the rest of existence.
Figures like Adam Smith argued that it was both a failed form of economy as well as being morally reprehensible. Are you going to turn him into a "post war" apologist?
by moat on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 8:39am
The South definitely wanted to avoid the abolition of the enslaved. The 1619 project presented arguments the 1776 revolution may have been pushed by an 'economic' reaction by American slave states to British sentiment to ban slavery. As Moat said with the railroad expansion and the money and law to do it, the slave states threw up roadblocks as they wanted more slave states to balance any free states as the West was settled. After the Civil War the railroads were booming, at least until the general economic crash of 1873.
The Boston Tea Party could be seen as a revolt by American tea bootleggers to cheap British tea, as the Crown had just cut taxes on tea export - undercutting the Boston/American tea black market coming through countries other than Britain. Not to be too cynical, but to say the Revolution was only about freedom and high ideals, and not political power/money, may be just another nationalistic tale of righteousness 'taught in elementary schools.' Similarly, with the rapid collapse of defense of the rights of the emancipated in the South, some skepticism is warranted as to the objectives of the Civil War.
by NCD on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 8:23pm
Emancipation was an unanticipated consequence of the Civil War. The Proclamation only applied to states that left the Union. Slavery remained intact in DC and the rest of the Union.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 8:33pm
There was a big backlash to the essay in the 1619 Project that implied protection of slavery was the reason for the Revolutionary War.
The NYT issued a clarification
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/11/magazine/an-update-to-the-1619-project.html
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/06/2020 - 9:43pm
Tea tax was just one of many, and the Colonialists got tired of being a captive market only allowed to shop at the company store to fill in any shortfalls in the King's budget or European operations.
The slave bit as a cause for their independence is just ahistorical.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 12:05am
A reminder that The Stamp Act of 1765 was the main one that started it all, where the slogan "no taxation without representation" came from. That and then the 1770 Boston Massacre (just hit me now that the current Portland anarchists should love that story!--goons of big faraway gummint shoot protesters--wonder why they don't.)
The Boston Tea Party just gets more attention in modern pop history than it deserves because of the kabuki show aspects. Actually I remember reading original texts that a lot of colonialists who weren't fond of their overlords didn't approve of it, was somewhat counter-productive.Same with the tarring and feathering gigs. (The out of control mob thing as always?)
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 12:23am
Slavery may have pushed some Virginian's to support the colonial rebels
https://www.vox.com/2015/7/2/8884885/american-revolution-mistake
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 12:28am
There were 193k slaves in Jamaica alone in 1775, roughly half that of all the colonies put together. Maybe the colonies' rebel slaves got some kind of special status heading to Jamaica, but I doubt it was to the level of some Disney feel-good film.
As for Bermuda, not quite a slave economy, but...
(note the special undesirability of Irish)
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 1:32am
This has nothing to do with the argument that Virginians may have had a fear of slaves being freed if the British won a war with the colonists. The discussion is about the situation in the colonies at the time. Slavery was a bigger factor than reflected by past historians.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 8:19am
Huh? You said the Brits were going to give rebellious slaves refuge in Jamaica and elsewhere, even Ye Ole Merrye England.
I just pointed out the reality of Jamaica and Bermuda at the time, that it was no nirvana for black folk.
And best not to be French Canadian under British control - the Brits packed them up like sardines and killed half of them shipping them round to New Orleans, the Acadians aka "Cajuns". Kinda similar to how they treated Irish, et al.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 8:40am
My opening statement
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 8:57am
You also said:
But I pointed out Jamaica 1775 had *half* the slave population of all the colonies together, and there was no way of predicting the 1793 invention of the cotton gin that changed the whole game, along with expansion into Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, or the 1803 acquisition of Louisiana and also snagging Florida and the extended panhandle in 1820. There's just so much guessing of motives and opinions based on 20/20 hindsight.
Your article also mentions 3000-4000 slaves carried away to freedom by the Brits. Not sure where you get your 100k number if escaped and freed slaves, which would've been 1/4 of the total at that time, and been a much bigger deal, but hey, if those were the numbers dug up, just might be. But where?
Not sure where slavery was the convincing issue to turn Virginia's allegiance. Perhaps, maybe, who knows...
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 9:13am
The 100K number comes from a PBS documentary series
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2narr4.html
You can ask the documentarian the source
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 9:43am
1 article lists 66k black loyalists from VA, SC & GA, with 75k-100k overall. A lot of the blacks going to Dunsmore died of fever, it sounds like.
Many of those in Nova Scotia and London chose to leave for Africa.
Oddly, black men in North Carolina had the vote at time of independence, and could serve in the state militia until 1830.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 10:37am
I would just like to point out that nobody claimed it was a finished work; rather, this was supposed to be the takeaway:
...It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 2:30pm
p.s. And the United States is still here! I've noticed lately that some even advocate adding more states to ameliorate certain faulty issues concerning elections and a certain Congressional body.
edit to add: not to mention discussions about changing the number of justices on the the Supreme Court of the land...it continues...
by artappraiser on Sat, 12/05/2020 - 2:39pm
Rough Crossings tells the story of the Black Loyalists who fought with the British
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/04/books/review/04staples.html
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 10:35am
Slave Nation tells us that Southern states secured the right to own slaves before joining the Northerners to fight the British
https://www.zinnedproject.org/materials/slave-nation/
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 10:48am
Thanks for the book reviews. Both by eminent scholars.
Bottom line, we got the undemocratic obstructing oath defying all powerful Senate, now run by a power obsessed scoundrel elected by 1.2 million rubes, hillbillies, bigots and grifters in a state in the top ten for poverty, and number one for folks on federal disability, BECAUSE the 'Revolution from tyranny' depended on giving the Deep South not only 3/5 slave count power in the House, but the obstruction power of 2 senators for each slave state, done regardless of population.
by NCD on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 11:34am
We have to look at history to understand where we are today.
At some point, the fact that a political party wins the majority of votes in a state, but has less seats in the legislature will come to a head.
The same thing will happen at the Presidential level.
People like McConnell actually laugh at the carnage they leave behind.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 11:51am
It still bothers me we write off these "disproportionate" states, though we have enough tiny ones as well - Delaware, Vermont, Connecticut, Rhode Island... And the states we're really talking about are the bigger ones we're halfway there on.
Biden flipped Arizona and Georgia. North Carolina was very close (with Michigan & PA tight the other way). Biden was competitive in Texas. Florida is a mystery soup still to be deciphered - every single time. Iowa's within striking distance, Ohio a bit further.
The electoral college is not a problem. Voter disenfranchisement is. Messaging and the acceptance of pure disinfo/false facts are the biggest challenge, but we still haven't decided whether we want these voters, or we just call them deplorable a and pursue GOTV with our split progressive<=>left-centrist base. Lincoln Project showed some fun side, but is that enough? And how about engaging at state level, cuz that's where federal candidates come from usually...
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 12:24pm
The electoral college is the problem.
Each state has two Senators.
Let the entire voting public decide the President.
Otherwise, the future could be repeated Republican Presidents who lost the popular vote.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 12:33pm
They could even it up tomorrow and we'd figure out a way to lose by Thursday. We are not winning at state level. GOP and Dems both have 6 low population states with 3 or 4 electoral votes. The biggest issue is California, which at 55 dwarfs the next state, so should have an extra pair of Senators. Maybe New York with it's 29. But the GOP has Texas with 38. That's about it; the rest is based on apportioned representatives. Guess the founding fathers didn't anticipate huge unoccupied stats, but they basically average out. But they did anticipate the urban/rural divide, and decided not to let the cities overdominate. But I still figure we need to be more persuasive while getting laws enforced.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 12:59pm
One person, one vote for President.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 1:17pm
We make this myth that the US constitution was the greatest document in history and a template for all other democracies going forward when it was the result of tough compromises that weren't liked but accepted as the only choice. The population difference in the 13 colonies was not that great. Except for Virginia most of the states were relatively close. Virginia had about 10 times the population of the smallest state and they bit the bullet to get the constitution passed. It was a tough fight that Virginia didn't like but they gave in to get the 13 colonies to unite That wouldn't have happened if Virginia had 80 times a populated as California is today compared to the least populated state.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 2:03pm
Not unless that Rhode Island bunch had a modified AR-15 to 2nd Amendment their asses. Different ways to compromise. ("in all the excitement of signing the Constitution, i forgot - did i fire the whole clip or just half. Make my day, punk...")
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 2:25pm
I thought of you using the example of California when I just now saw this tea-leaf reading piece
NEWS THIS MORNING THAT GOLDMAN SACHS may move its asset management division from New York City to Florida got us thinking about the major political shift that will come after this year's census. The winners in the 2024 election - and in upcoming congressional redistricting - will be Texas and Florida; a high-profile loser will be California....
It really got me thinking that most of the arguments on this thread are very much passe, history themselves.
The only constant we have right now is massive change.
If one is going to use a historic analogy, try early 1869, a new President Grant is going to be inaugurated in March. What happens next? That's really where we are...
by artappraiser on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 6:21pm
USA Today has an article about the ongoing crap thought about Slavery and Civil Rights in high school classes. This leads to resistance to accepting new data when it is presented.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2020/12/07/southern-history-textbooks-long-history-deception/3809954001/
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 12/07/2020 - 12:39pm