The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    In the car

    By Flavius on Tue, 12/10/2019 - 1:14am |

      I asked whether Ted would be there. 

    Driving to the  Christmas party at a home  for the “developmentally disabled “ . 

    Guys who can’t live outside. Crazy ,probably  called  although one of them can do complicated math puzzles  in his head. When he’s not violent. Mostly true now.

    Only  one really talks. But they get along.  With one another and the staff,.  
    And enjoy the holiday  food. Cooked by the staff and to some extent by staff from other houses who like to come by . It’s a good scene.

    “Don’t know “ she said.”    “   He almost lost a foot during the year  to a disease diagnosed just in time.”

    Highly trained and also highly intuitive , Ted  has worked with DD people for 30 years. And has a long background and rapport with one of our guys.

    “I’ ll make a point of talking with him” I said. 

    “Remember”  she said “he’s very conservative” .

    Good to know what topics to avoid.

    Ted  obviously has no problem with blacks. Staff’s about 50/50.
    But I made to drop Obamacare from my topics. And Trump. And the
    confederacy.

    The horrible things whites did to  blacks is a matter of course among us. We might noisily disagree on other things. But not because one of us is tempted to  lie about the civil war.  It was fundamentally caused by slavery, A fact. 
     
    But to Ted? 

    I think about  an impressive relative- a once impoverished ,  non- english speaking immigrant who became successful (and helped  pay my college bills)  . I clearly remember him taking out  the cigar  and  gravely  saying  “ I sometime  think the Blacks were  better off then”. 
     
    When we venture out of this sanctuary of Dagblog we meet a lot of people who aren’t worth bothering with. Bad people.

    But  others who are . Not just because we want their votes. But also , like Ted, because they  ought to have the chance to know better. We should  give them  a chance to engage with the rest of the world  e.g. by learning the truth from NCD about the 1860s ‘“productivity miracle. Just whipping.


    But  if we wan’t to do that,  the way to start is not  by toppling some monumental  Hero from his Rebel  horse.

    Nor by denying that the young white rebs who suffered,died  and lost  were just as brave as the yankees they opposed.  

    The confederate flag is not offensive. Cotton has no personal ability to offend  , just cloth sewed together and colored. And in the case of the Confederate Flag..  Just a loser’s token.   

    Most  countries seem to have their own version The Lost Cause;.Bonnie  Prince Charlie;  whomever.Yawn.

    Theoretically I understand that toppling a statue can feel good .Per se.

    But of course it won’t add  a single vote for us   next November. 
    What of course it  will add is a vote for the Republicans. That’s what happens when you kick a voter in the shins.

    Do they “deserve” it ? In some cases, maybe, But that’s not the issue.  It’s whether we -and the black candidate  foolishly  rejected by a bitter employer -
    who liked that statue -deserve to  lose a potential voter and employer.

    .

    Comments

    ....Eddie Sumpter, 34, a black neighbor around the corner who was able to buy a bigger house by selling his previous home to a Hasidic family, said he welcomed the newcomers.

    “We live among Chinese. We live among Spanish,’’ said Mr. Sumpter, who is a cook. “It don’t matter. People is people. If you’re good people, you’re good people.”

    from Jersey City, NJ published @ NYTimes.com, Aug. 2017 Uneasy Welcome as Ultra-Orthodox Jews Extend Beyond New York; I have excerpted roughly 1/2 of the article here at Dag on the news thread about yesterday's shooting in Jersey City.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 12/11/2019 - 9:00pm

    To keep Ted's vote, Democrats will have to turn their backs on issues important to blacks. You knew to avoid certain topics..

    You have a free speech right to say the Confederate flag is not offensive. Remain on the sidelines. Others will fight the good fight.

    Democrats picked up votes in the midterms and won Governorships this year. It seems they are doing something right. Outreach to Democrats and Independents who stayed at home in 2016 seems to be working. Perhaps appeasing a guy who thinks blacks were better off in slavery will result in black voters staying home. Every action has an equal, but opposite reaction. 
     

    Edit to add:

    Claire McCaskill reached out to "Ted". She is now a former Senator.

    In the months leading up to the 2018 midterms, McCaskill focused a lot of her energy on wooing moderate voters. That ended up backfiring.

    After the election, Rep. William Lacy Clay (D-Mo.) told the McClatchy news service he believed the reason McCaskill lost was that she did not prioritize connecting with black voters. He and a fellow Missouri Democrat, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver II, “started out early on trying to convince Claire, trying to convince the [Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee] and the state party that they needed to do more than come in a week out and have chicken dinners for certain black officials,” Clay said. “You need to build up some momentum,” he said.

    Instead, Clay said, McCaskill ran a race that failed to engage urban voters. While turnout in Kansas City and St. Louis, where much of the state’s black vote is concentrated, was higher than during any other midterm since at least 2002, the turnout rate in the state’s strongly Republican rural regions was even higher.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/02/14/what-claire-mccaskill-gets-wrong-about-identity-politics/

    2nd Edit to add

    In a 2018 poll twice as many blacks (64%) versus whites (31%) in South Carolina saw the flag as a symbol of conflict. Who gets to decide what is offensive?

    https://www.postandcourier.com/winthrop-poll---confederate-flag-by-race/html_8f35fb16-02be-11e9-b6d3-b79cd8001298.html


     

     

     


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 12:16am

    McCaskill didn't run the kind of race that lost her the election in 2004  what's wrong with her. Everyone's wise post-election - a lot of great - and contradictory - advice.

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/10/29/claire-mccaskills-toughest...

    Also:

    Democrats need new ways to reach black voters, but that’s not why McCaskill lost noting she reached nearly Obama levels in St. Louis & KC. So much for narratives.

    And then the Washington Examiner notes

    ...McCaskill was caught this week in an ugly back-and-forth with black state Sen. Maria Chappelle-Nadal. Chappelle-Nadal accused McCaskill on Twitter of being "a piece of shit" and compared her to a being a slave owner after the senator distanced herself from so-called "crazy Democrats" like Chappelle-Nadal on Fox News. Chappelle-Nadal last year was investigated by the Secret Service for writing on Facebook that she hoped Trump was assassinated.

    and "...a Democratic National Committee "that’s been widely assailed for its lack of minority outreach."

    Defeat is an orphan.


    by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 3:21am

    Point taken

    I still reject the Flavius argument that Ted is being kicked in the shins. If Ted is a victim, why wouldn't the black voters who would be pushed aside by catering to Ted's desires not be kicked in the shins? It assumes that Ted is the only type of white business owner Democrats can attract. Democrats have been winning elections without direct outreach to Ted. 
    If Ted exists and feels black were better off in slavery, the black workers might be concentrated in low wage jobs requiring food stamp assistance.

    Edit to add:

    Flavius says Ted loves the Confederacy and has his feelings hurt if the Confederacy is criticized. At the minimum the majority of Democratic Black Caucus would not have pleasant thoughts about the Confederacy if queried. A significant number of white and Latino Democrats would have similar feelings. To keep Ted happy, the Democratic Party would have to shift to please Ted. This entire hypothetical makes no sense. Ted has Trump,and his buddy Stephen Miller in office. Ted has his tax cuts. What message could th Democrats craft to make poor victim Ted feel that he is not being kicked in the shins? Ted would stick with Trump. That is not the fault of Democrats. The fault is Ted's heart.

     


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 10:36am

    When you say: "The confederate flag is not offensive.  Just a loser’s token." ....you left out "to me". The part forgotten in the thinking, actions and beliefs of so many of the bigoted and/or indifferent and self-centered.

    Your only political conviction seems to be not offending racists and conservatives.

    On the other hand, you seem totally unperturbed about unambiguously discounting the well grounded opinions of people who are offended by what you dismiss as "tokens".


    by NCD on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 1:01pm

    Thank you for stating the obvious. If blacks complain, it is pity olympics or hassling good ole boys never meaning no harm.

    But we are kicking poor Ted in the shins.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 3:59pm

    Blacks voted against electing GWB, they were even more against his Awesome Iraqi Adventure. When Bush crashed the world economy Republican voters became born again 'independents' and Tea Partiers. By 2010, stupid white voters put the "new" GOP back in Congress. In 2016 they elected a TV game show host and real estate huckster. 

    Bottom line, neither Flavius nor anyone is gonna rewire their brains to stop voting white. And core right wing voters, and their vile, ignorant leader have no compunction at attacking anybody, they deserve every bit of ridicule and argument one can muster.


    by NCD on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 7:27pm

    Two totally different goals are being conflated here and that is why there is disagreement

    1) changing what is acceptable in a culture via peer pressure

    2) winning in political races where swing voters, swing districts, and swing states make a considerable difference in the outcome.

    I.E. getting out every single voter who hates the confederate flag in Nov. 2020 may still not be good enough to defeat Donald Trump.

    Indeed, personally I think making a political campaign litmus test of something like the use of the confederate flag on T-shirts or on the flagpole in your yard as offensive, could turn off just the number of voters that would cause many moderates favoring the left side to lose.

    In politics, you have to deal with entire population you have, as it is in present reality. In a democracy you have to make bedfellows with people that will not share every single one of your beliefs and views, you have to tolerate some things you dislike to get anywhere. The courts are there to protect the minority view. This is exactly why Nikki Haley was sort of backtracking or finessing her previous interpretation: it's for political benefit.

    In the culture at large, on the other hand, like social media, TV, movies, etc., shaming those who don't find the flag offensive might be quite successful, especially at this point in time. And with enough success at culture change, eventually Nikki Haley types would not find the need to finesse.


    by artappraiser on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 7:41pm

    Trump is still viable after the revelations of all his misdeeds. That is because, as NCD notes, some vote "white". If Democrats welcome those voters, they will make the same mistake as the Republicans. The Republicans are a cult because they sought out the Teds. There are worse things than losing elections, there is losing your moral compass. Hypothetical Ted believes that blacks were better during enslavement. If you can't reject that, you are pathetic.
     

    The reason we are talking about the Confederate flag is because faux-hero Nikki Haley opened her yap. The idea that black Democrats are running around asking which white Democratic voters are wearing Confederate gear is insane. The only ones opining that nonexistent Ted is getting kicked in his nonexistent shins are you and Flavius. Democrats made gains in elections in 2018 and again in 2019. It appears that there are real voters coming out in high numbers to vote for Democrats. It appears there are real life white people who make it unnecessary to worry about fictional Ted.

    If Trump does get re-elected, it will again be because a majority of white voters cast votes for Trump. I believe that the coalition of rational white voters and ethnic minority voters can beat the electoral college racket in 2020., I say this because I have not run into hordes of white people who have worn blackface or rock Confederate gear, etc. 

    If Trump wins, we will continue to kick nonexistent Ted in his shins. If Trump loses we will continue to kick nonexistent Ted in his shins. You are free to go on a snipe hunt for Confederate lovers who think blacks were better off in slavery that you want to convert to Democratic voters. The rest of us feel better working on people who exist in real life.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 8:19pm

    I think your goals would be better served permanently by fixing a lot of gerrymandering. To fix gerrymandering first you need to win more elections using Teds.

    You run for election with the districts and states and country you have, not with the districts and states and country you wish you had.


    by artappraiser on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 8:30pm

    Avoids the issue. Do really believe that questioning a person who says blacks were better off in slavery is a "litmus test"?


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 8:37pm

    Ted is not running for office, he is just a voter.

    I've seen you say purist things many times. It's like you want to give people a test before they are allowed to vote Democratic!  If they voted for Trump, they need to go to hell, you don't want their vote. What about Never Trumpers, some are still Repblicans, you don't want their vote, to hell with them?  An attitude that's extremely purist and tribal, guaranteeing a minority party for years to come.

    Worst mistake a politician can make is not ask each and every voter out there watching the debate for their vote. Doesn't know what their beliefs are, doesn't know what color they are, just ask for their vote, all of them. He/she could care less if they vote for him/her because they like the hairstyle, a vote is a vote.


    by artappraiser on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 8:46pm

    Yawn.

    Enjoy your snipe hunt. Go appeal to Ted.


    by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 9:18pm

    Your observation is interesting.
    In my family, the ones pushing the Trump thing are not interested in what people not like them do.
    It is all about whether a certain narrative is correct.
    And it is impossible to create a common region to discuss what is happening because everything you think is true is wrong.
    Without a shared set of facts, what does it mean to listen to other points of views?


    by moat on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 8:49pm

    mentioning Obama upthread reminded me of this tweet of his:


    by artappraiser on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 9:23pm

    Democrats practice this. They were able to pass a bipartisan trade bill and apparently an agreement to prevent a government shutdown. I think you were the one who posted an article about AOC working with Ted Cruz.

    Updated NAFTA

    https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2019-12-10/revised-nafta-mexico-white-house-democrats

    Shutdown avoided

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/21/us/politics/government-spending-bill-sena.html

    AOC excited to work with Ted Cruz

    https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/16/alexandria-ocasio-cortezted-cruz-1365858

     

    Regarding President Obama

     

    Mitch McConnell openly discussed making Obama a one term President. He recently laughed about blocking Obama.

    One term President comment

    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell summed up his plan to National Journal: “The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.”

    https://www.politico.com/story/2010/10/the-gops-no-compromise-pledge-044311

    Mc Connell on Blocking Obama

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/mitch-mcconnell-blocks-obama-laughs_n_5df32430e4b0deb78b517322

     

     

     


    by rmrd0000 on Fri, 12/13/2019 - 8:50am

    My wife's brother in law fit into a  type.. Used to ride,to School.  At least to  a river where he left the horse. Math major at  a Plains college. Ultimately became  a sort of in-house   guru for a major company..

    And was deeply impressed by "The road to Serfdom". etc. 

    Would strongly make his case , politely  listen to mine ,. then stand up and  say " Have a drink".

    Seemed to work.


    by Flavius on Fri, 12/13/2019 - 12:47pm

    So your brother-in-law votes for Democratic candidates now?

    Edit to add:

    If this brother-in-law actually exists, you may talking about having conversations rather than converting votes. I imagine most of us have conversations with people with opposing political views without literally kicking our opponents in the shins. We simply agree to disagree. Often there is nothing that can be said to change a political viewpoint. Therefore, we look to energize Independents and Democrats who stayed home in 2016, rather than making fruitless appeals to racists and conservatives. People who regret voting for Trump are moving themselves away from the GOP.

     


    by rmrd0000 on Sat, 12/14/2019 - 12:15pm

    speaking of cars and good ole boy culture, reminds me of Bill Clinton for some reason, something he might do:

     

     


    by artappraiser on Thu, 12/12/2019 - 9:00pm

    Broadly both Clinton's espoused similar policies. Only one of them called her opponents  deplorable...


    by Flavius on Fri, 12/13/2019 - 11:24am

    I know there are only 60 days left to make our case – and don't get complacent; don't see the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment and think, "Well, he's done this time." We are living in a volatile political environment.

    You know, to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables. (Laughter/applause) Right? (Laughter/applause) They're racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic – Islamophobic – you name it. And unfortunately, there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people – now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive hateful mean-spirited rhetoric. Now, some of those folks – they are irredeemable, but thankfully, they are not America.

    But the "other" basket – the other basket – and I know because I look at this crowd I see friends from all over America here: I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas and — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that "other" basket of people are people who feel the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures; and they're just desperate for change. It doesn't really even matter where it comes from. They don't buy everything he says, but — he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.

    — Hillary Clinton, CBS News[9]

    And I'd hazard the general public was a bit less deplorable in Bill's time. People in general lamented and we're shocked by Rodney King's treatment. Judging from the response to #TakeAKnee, I'd hazard a good number now would cheer. Bone saws are accepted as a journalist taming device, Novichok and 8th story falls and mass concentration camps for dealing with dissidents. Lying's good, totally accepted, just has to be for your (GOP) side. Funneling money from abroad? Acceptable - whatcha gonna do, turn it down?


    by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 12/13/2019 - 11:49am

    Thanks for the full quote Certainly as a  supporter  I would want her to disapprove of deplorable actions. 

     But per the  gist of my blog I'd a want a  candidate to remember  her  table of horrors probably  includes a Ted, who  hotly protests equal opportunity regs . ,And is  grateful to the black  woman  who  saved from at  a black eye.

     

       


    by Flavius on Fri, 12/13/2019 - 11:52pm

    I'm pretty sure Hillary realized her followers had their own faults, and that racism permeates. Her statement was an appeal to our better angels, not much different than a standard Sunday sermon. But Republicans and the medua could jump in anything, ignoring context, like her 2 decade use if the word "superpredator". If she'd said "cheese", they woulda talked about her abusing cows and promoting unhealthy dangerous eating habits.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/14/2019 - 12:28am

    I  mostly agree and  where I don't  it'll  be on my  usual boring grounds.

    We should welcome  every vote including those from racists and anti semites. They count the same as those from the good guys.

    Churchchill , June  41 "If the devil came in our side I'd work a favorable comment on Hades into next Question Time.".

     

     


    by Flavius on Sat, 12/14/2019 - 10:58pm

    I for one, are counting on you Flav, to transform at least one racist or neo-nazi to vote the Democratic Party ticket in 2020. You have connections there few can claim, or could tolerate.


    by NCD on Sat, 12/14/2019 - 11:29pm

    If we only  got the votes of nice people we'd always to take a 4 year vacation are every election.


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/15/2019 - 11:50am

    Not true. The racists like Ted and your hypothetical brother-in-law are sticking with Trump. Others become former Republicans and are not willing to overlook the Trump stench. Racists are not the only white people to be courted. You have a very low opinion of white people. I think coalitions of whites and minorities can be formed without compromising the pursuit of equal rights.


    by rmrd0000 on Sun, 12/15/2019 - 12:03pm

    So where exactly do we (or you & Hillary) disagree? She was making a play for those who weren't so despicable, who had some redeeming qualities - not perfect angels, but didn't want to be on the side of a crass pussy grabbing neanderthal. I mean, right - perhaps there are some people for caging immigrant kids or cops smashing blacks heads into the pavement who would've voted for Hillary until she said the word "deplorable" which hurt their feelings so much they sat out the election or rushed back into the arms of Trump. That's a few thousand votes I'm sure. You know Corbyn just ran an election where he wouldn't come out and say if he was for Brexit or against it, didn't get out there and say outspoken things, just put together his list of suggested mostly social-program-leaning policies. He got his ass soundly kicked by another right wingish* buffoon. So spare all the electoral microslicing&dicing - even Churchill got trounced post-war by Clement Attlee, wartime inspiration or not - guess there weren't near enough devils to carry him over the finish line.

    *whether Boris is a true conservative remains in doubt, but as long as he conveniently abandons his earlier left-leaning stances and pivots to his convenient right supporters, it doesn't really matter. Cue the rmrd discussion of whether Trump's trully a racist or just plays one on TV - it doesn't really matter in the end.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/15/2019 - 5:19am

    Winston described Attlee as a "modest little man who has a lot  to be modest about.

     

    Should have described him as "Demonstrating that unique British genius for modesty." . Or something.


    by Flavius on Sun, 12/15/2019 - 11:56am

    Best description's "my successor". All else is naught.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 12/15/2019 - 1:11pm

    Really belongs on this thread more than the other one I just posted a link on laugh:


    by artappraiser on Sun, 12/15/2019 - 3:53pm

    14-point thread of fancy schmancy sociological version of Flavius theory, might interest you:

    https://twitter.com/ericchendriks/status/1208961338833297409


    by artappraiser on Sat, 12/28/2019 - 5:45am

    The Market of Ideas can't resemble the old East European shops with 1 limited item spread across a whole shelf.


    by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 12/28/2019 - 6:00am

    Another "In the car" fable.  Make love, not war:

    Highly recommend you watch Flav, I know you will like.


    by artappraiser on Mon, 12/30/2019 - 12:30am

    I did. Thanks.


    by Flavius on Mon, 12/30/2019 - 1:15am

    related, I think:

     


    by artappraiser on Fri, 01/03/2020 - 4:52pm

    Thought of this thread again when I saw this:

    Sound up. Praying for our troops. pic.twitter.com/VsRQzFa9uQ

    — Alyssa Milano (@Alyssa_Milano) January 8, 2020

    That's it's simply not unusual to do what you are advocating here, Flav. It's actually more of the norm. People don't scream and hate at each other because of political goals except on the internet. All "Hollywood" type liberals actually don't shrink away in horror at the phrase "pray for the troops" (who are not all war criminals and psychopaths) but are sympathetic, and white guys sing with young black guys while they work amicably with them, may even share foxholes and consider each other brothers.

    it's faux drama to continually claim otherwise actually, as if everyone is always angry with and hates the other, it's kabuki for the internet and agitprop.


    by artappraiser on Wed, 01/08/2020 - 5:17pm

    Proust said M. DeNorpois'  (probably misspelled) preference for company at a reception  would be  a Radical   in a  similar position rather than another Conservative.

    In the 80's a former  Republican campaign manager  - known  for character assassination - died slowly. His most frequent visitor, his former Democrat opposite number 

     


    by Flavius on Thu, 01/09/2020 - 12:35am

    This tweet reminded me that it's always good to keep in mind that there is a difference between cultural conservatism and economic conservatism (and that frankly, Trump has exploited that, he's basically helped the Pat Buchanan wing of the GOP to take over the party):

    To be specific, I am including attitudes regarding racial and gender inequality under 'cultural' conservatism; I ran out of characters in the original tweet. https://t.co/s2Hwf6fSBi

    — Christopher Federico (@ChrisPolPsych) January 13, 2020

    (To the point where many Never Trumpers were formally known as globalist Neo-Conservatives.with much invested in American exceptionialism and democracy promotion.)


    by artappraiser on Mon, 01/13/2020 - 3:16pm


    by artappraiser on Fri, 01/24/2020 - 10:41pm


    by artappraiser on Sat, 01/25/2020 - 8:53pm

    hey dear Flav, even though you may have sadly left us never to return, I wanted to leave this on this blog entry of yours for the record, that we've got ourself a presidential candidate that agrees with your message:

    (And also for the record, I like to note that in a later blog entry of yours, I believe you did the "Go home!" message before Keisha Lance Bottoms did.)


    by artappraiser on Fri, 08/21/2020 - 1:14am