David Seaton's picture

    Libya for Dummies: the lipstick doctrine

    The Lipstick Doctrine

    In the Victorian age, the British once sang – “We don’t want to fight, but by Jingo if we do/ We’ve got the ships, we’ve got the men, we’ve got the money too.” The Libyan intervention feels like a last reprise of that old tune, rather than a bold statement for a new age. Gideon Rachman - Financial Times

    The president seemed to provide little guidance for what position he would take in other, more vital nations in the region now roiled by an “Arab Spring” of popular uprising. Nor did Mr. Obama’s speech on Monday shed light on whether the president would use force in other trouble spots. - New York Times

    We now have an "Obama Doctrine", which after Guantanamo and Afghanistan, might be defined, paraphrasing Groucho Marx,  "This is my doctrine, if you don't like it, I've got others".

    This "doctrine" has all the rigor of something that doctors in British emergency rooms call the "Dirt Index", which is arrived at by multiplying the number of the patient's tattoos by the number of the patient's missing teeth, which gives us the exact number of days since the patient last had a bath. This is just a way of making a joke of a bad smell that has to be dealt with.

    What is happening in Libya is very simple, but it is connected to some things that are quite complicated.

    The simple part is that if we ignore all the R2P (Responsibility to Protect) drivel -- Congo, Bahrain, Syria, Myanmar  etc, need not apply --  perhaps it may be noted that, a short hop away, just across the Mare Nostrum from the wealthy European Union, which houses NATO, America's only real allies; outside the troubled Middle East; this side of the Persian Gulf; this side of the Suez Canal; far from energy-rich Russia; in a country with very few people and unchallenging geography; controlled by a very awkward character with no friends left; a hair-challenged tyrant who is opposed by a ragtag group of desperate and poorly armed nobodies, people who can be bought for a song; just waiting to become a UN protectorate, while they develop "democratic institutions"... lies a huge amount of oil.

    "Low hanging fruit", you might call it.

    As an anonymous commentator on my previous post suggested:

    "At present prices, Libyan oil production is about $185 million a day. Amortizing the development costs of weapons that are mostly exported at $100 million a day for a month is a bargain if it gets you hooked up with $200 million a day for the next 3 decades."

    So at least if we remove all the gooey humanitarian intervention cant and as long as almost none of our people get hurt, this operation does make some sense. Nothing particularly brave and noble about it all, but it makes sense.

    The rest of the situation, like they say on Facebook, is "complicated".

    The American media is full of rejoicing about the shared democratic values of the "Arab Spring", the president speaks soaringly about being "on the right side of history"... talk about your putting lipstick on a pig.

    What the "Arab Spring" -- the empowering of the "Arab street" -- means is that America's position in the Middle East, if not totally collapsed, has been made infinitely more complicated. The last thing the USA has ever wanted is for Middle Eastern governments to follow the opinion of their subjects (oops, citizens), as the people of that region tend to frown on "Zionists and crusaders". Supporting "security states" has been America's modus operandi  in the Middle East for many years. The people who own stuff in the region have built their lives around those policies... and they are being left out to dry.

    People who had been mainstays of American policies for decades and did our dirty work for us without question are being abandoned without ceremony.  Remaining power elites in the area and beyond have seen that being a lockstep ally of the USA is of little survival value when push comes to shove. And the new power elites that may arise, no matter what ideology they may profess, will have taken note of how little value we had  for their predecessors in their hour of need, and plan accordingly. 

    A disaster. Instability in the Persian Gulf is practically guaranteed for many years to come... Certainly the European Union's access to Middle Eastern oil has been made more problematic.

    Since it never rains but what it pours, this has all happened precisely at the moment when Japan's catastrophe has taken nuclear power off the menu of solutions for the energy shortfall.

    The winner in this situation, is of course Europe's eastern neighbor Russia, which has all the oil and gas that the EU might need.

    Bottom line, the United States can no longer guarantee Europe's energy supply. 

    Russia can.

    Russia abstained on the Libyan resolution.

    Ironies of history: the USSR has disappeared and Russia has just won the Cold War.

    Which takes us to another abstainer: Germany.

    The Germans have been taking a lot of harsh criticism for their abstention from the UN Libya resolution, however it may prove to have been a brilliant move.

    As far as France, Britain and reluctantly the United States is concerned this entire operation is predicated on the idea that as soon as his air force was destroyed Qaddafi would simply dry up and blow away, fly up his fundament and disappear. This doesn't seem to be happening. As I said in a previous post, Libya's "Brother Leader", is a very tough old bird and it very well may be that he cannot be defeated without the "coalition" putting "boots on the ground"... something they have repeatedly said they are not prepared to do and which the UN resolution doesn't provide cover for. If they do decide to use ground forces to bring down Qaddafi and control Libya the consequences could be dire for France and Britain...  As Max Hastings wrote in the Financial Times:

    The Americans remain irritably aware that they have been bullied into participation in a speculative adventure, for which they are obliged to do the heavy lifting, because the British and French cheerleaders lack the firepower. For instance, of 112 cruise missiles fired at Libya on Sunday night when the offensive began, just three were British, and one of those got stuck in its launch tube.

    It is obvious that to decisively defeat Qaddafi, bring the post-Qaddafi situation under control so that "free" Libya does not turn into a rest and recreation center cum cash cow for Al Qaeda, American military involvement will be needed indefinitely. Deeply indebted America cannot afford it and there is little or no public support for it. Horrible as he is, Qaddafi may still be the best option: he has been at the same time horrible and the best option for over forty years.

    So, if Qaddafi wins his civil war, negotiations will have to take place in order to renew access to his oil (so near and yet so far). Guess which country is uniquely placed to lead those negotiations? The only European power that abstained... Germany, of course.

    At this point Germany holds not only a possible key to the Libyan oil, its cooperation with Russia in the Nord Stream gas pipeline gives them a vital key to northern Europe's energy needs. This is added to the reality that as by far Europe's most powerful economy, Germany holds the keys to the survival of the euro and ultimately the European Union itself. So, without firing a shot, Germany has secured many of the objectives, certainly the "place in the sun", which it sought at the cost of ruin and devastation in World Wars One and Two.

    As to NATO, if its founding mission objective was famously, to "keep the Americans in, the Russians out and the Germans down" as of this moment it has failed, and this Libyan operation is the dramatization of that failure.

    Sometimes in modern history these small, "colonial" incidents like  the "Fashoda Incident" of 1898 can be seen, with 20/20 hindsight, to mark a turning point in international relations. It may be that in a few years this Libyan adventure will be seen as such a turning point, the end of one paradigm and the birth of a new one, whose shape we can only see imperfectly now.

     Crossposted from. http://seaton-newslinks.blogspot.com/

    Comments

    Well said.


    As you point out, the world of global affairs is a very complicated place, with a lot of agendas with people who various levels of leverage.  And the problem here is that Obama doesn't have some pithy doctrine that can passed on to the public in a three minute segment on the evening news?  Or is it that Russia is rising in power and influence in the world regardless what Obama or any US president does or doesn't do? 

    In dealing with local community problems, there are two primary questions we ask before making a commitment of resources and time:  is how critical is the problem? and what is the likelihood of success should we intervene?  It is a pragmatic approach.  Lack of medical insurance is a huge problem, but we don't put our energy there because our limited resources wouldn't make a dent in the problem.  There is other suffering we can better address (and by doing so help some be a better place to acquire health insurance).  Just as a medic rushing around the beach on D-Day making assessments of whether this wounded soldier should be given attention and limited resources.  That he moves on past one guy and onto another mean he doesn't care about the first one? That he is a horrible person who picks and chooses who gets morphine and who doesn't?

    Obama's administration made the decision that Libya was a critical problem and that they could have some level of success through intervention.  They might be proved wrong, or they might be proved right in the coming months.  As I have pointed out before, just like the intervention in the financial crisis, we will never know what chaos and misery was averted by the intervention.  We have only speculation that fleeing refugees from Libya would destablize Egypt and bring the violence to what up to now has been relatively violence free change, setting up further destablizing events in the region.

    In the end, if it is true that Germany and Russia rise to their new thrones, they will do so based on a stable economic world.  If they want to sustain their power and influence, they will soon find themselves in the situation of intervening in places they would rather not. And then we will be asking about what is their doctrine.


    Hey Trope. Metaphor. I suspect you'd agree that the mental images we use tell a lot about how we see things, how we decide to move forward. One of Doc Cleveland's struck me the other day, and one of yours today. Doc compared the Libyan rebels to the rag-tag, early-American Army. Now, I understood some of the points of comparison - poorly trained, poorly equipped, etc. But pretty much all of us know that's the case for roughly a million prior rebel armies, and thus, the comparison to perhaps the most beloved and historically important American army also brings with it an invisible injection of... friendliness, they're something like us, support, whatever you'd call it. 

    Now. Your image is of the US as the medic rushing around the beach on D-Day. Sortof a Radar O'Reilly kinda of fella. And me, I like Radar and I like medics and I like that we won D-Day. 

    But. Though I got your point about ending to make decisions on where to intervene, the ultimate chain of your metaphor leads back to... the US Military and its engagement in the Middle East. And it's ver very hard for me to describe the role of the US military in the Middle East as primarily being that of an unarmed, humanitarian, with-malice-toward-none medic.... It has destroyed Iraq, fought in Afghanistan, deposed leaders, trained torturers, funded despots, provided arms to killers, etc. 

    And it has done so for many decades now, and it has always been the biggest, meanest, most heavily-armed and most able to kill, thoughtlessly and at a distance "soldier" on the beach.

    Wouldn't you agree? More Rambo than Radar?


    At the risk of getting too meta, I really liked the style of this response, quinn. (The substance is also good, but it's the style that really resonates with me.)


    I donno. It feels a bit too... too... pleasant, somehow.

    Yech.

    And now... back to "Rambo 13: The Blogger!! ;-)


    I get your point.  Yes maybe the medic analogy wasn't the best choice.  (Or maybe for that reason, it was the best choice?)  It was the one that just popped into my head first. 

    Rambo does bring a facet of this larger discussion to mind.  Rambo, at least to the left, represents the mindset in which (military) violence is the solution to all our problems.  No shades of gray.  Diplomacy is for suckers.  One the end of the spectrum is the mindset that says that the military should never be used.  Ever.

    I would say I think those here on this site are of the mindset that says the truth is somewhere in between. The question is when to use it.  And further more, as your list of past actions in the Middle East brings up, to what extent should past actions influence that decision.  If we hadn't been involved in Iraq and Afghanistan and trained torturers etc, would what we are doing in Libya exactly as we have done be okay then? 

    Of course we need to place what the US has decided to do in Libya in the larger context.  And this is where much of the debate seems to be focued on.  Exactly what is the context, and what facets of that larger context should be given more weight or significance than others.  And then the struggle to find the right metaphor or analogy to convey it to others.

    Unfortunately, the nature of the quick-response-to-a-blog/comment form on sites like this tend to rip out a lot of nuances which responder no doubt has taken into consideration.  So sometimes a comment can come off "US military always bad.  Therefore, Libya action bad."  Or the opposite of that.  The truth is that the US military action in Libya cannot accurately decribed as either Rambo or Radar (actually I was thinking of the scene from Saving Private Ryan), and yet we stuck sometimes using them.


    So, as a post-structuralist and a post-modernist, doesn't it make you question yourself a bit when your subconscious imagines today's war in Libya as a scene from Saving Private Ryan? I mean, we both know the reality is actually quite different than the D-Day landing - we're dropping hundreds of very powerful bombs from the sky, have no soldiers on the ground, and actually, have no guarantee at all that the rebels are much like our D-Day troops... Interesting to me that you regard your stance as "pragmatic" and yet, your gut/imagination is kicking out "heroic moments in US history."

    When this is pointed out, you also had an interesting reaction, Trope. You imagined up someone on the "no US intervention, never ever" stance - and then positioned yourself against them. I would argue that person is in no way relevant, because I'm not that person - and you yourself say that no one at Dagblog appears to be one of these. So... why create such a creature to position yourself against?

    Answer? Rhetorically, it repositions you away from the fairytale Saving Private Ryan image, and puts you back where you want to be, in the sensible middle. In short, to defend the reality of your subconscious ("just jumped into your head") dream of what the Libyan war is like... you created a straw man.

    But then, 3rd interesting move, you describe US interventions in the ME as though it solely concerned "past actions." I commented here other day on how frequently I was seeing this done by supporters of intervention in Libya. Today's ongoing US wars thus become "past" events, which enables us, in Libya, to... move on. The problem is, in the real, practical, world... Iraq is ongoing, as is Afghanistan, as is Pakistan, as is the funding and arming and supporting torturers ... etc. 

    So, you believe your views are in the sensible middle, pragmatic, realistic, contexted. Except, you've just pushed today's real, ongoing, actions, by the US... into the past. And brought Saving Private Ryan dream imagery (which was both in the past, as well as being a story.) Created a strawman of the "no intervention ever" ilk, a position held by no one here at Dag.

    An interesting set of materials to go into our realistic/pragmatic foreign policy, eh?


    When I brought up the "no US intervention, never ever" stance, I used as a means to put forth that the people here are not pushing that agenda.  I was bemoaning the nature of the blog comment form which facilitates responses that can be taken to imply that "never" stance even though the person writing it understands the full shades of gray etc.  

    The Saving Private Ryan popped up when I contemplating the administration's decision making process, not the nature of the rebels.  One may assert that I am subconsciously linking the rebels with D-Day soldiers. 

    And if the actions elsewhere in the Middle East is taken as present tense, I wouldn't change the point I am making there.

    I have to run now.  But I'll be back.


    Speaking of metaphor, think about what an anti-Seaton could do with this:

    http://herald247.com/world_news/europe-world_news/guard-collapses-during...


    They keep saying that Obama has failed to lay out a clear cut policy; but I think you just have.

    The news programs show the 55 minute speech from our great leader but have a devil of a time translating the information into a 3 minute sound bite.

    On the other hand, many on the left screamed bloody murder over the Iraq invasion while w bush kept saying we were there to spread democracy after the WMD/nuclear/terrorist crapola failed as an excuse.

    Now there are people on the left cheering for the 'democratic' revolution(s) in several Muslim states.

    I don't know.

    I give up.


    opposed by a ragtag group of desperate and poorly armed nobodies, people who can be bought for a song; just waiting to become a UN protectorate

    Can be bought for a song is beneath you. And I don't think nobodies does you creditl


    Who are they? Do you know? Do you know anyone who does know?


    I now nothing about them. I think Juan Cole has some insights into who they are and I expect by now the CIA has accumulated substantial information about them. In any event the rebels are surely a mixture .


    In the April 7th New York Review Nicolas Pelham provides some details on who the rebels are.

    Broadest generalization :there is a strong  geographical/tribal tinge.With the eastern tribes such as the Zuwaya backing the rebels and the western ones , Qaddafi.

    The Islamists are coming to the fore in both halves of the country. But of course, since Qaddafi still controls the west  they're chiefly active there in local affairs  whereas in the east they are valued members of the alliance. They include jihadists returned from Afghanistan who are not yet prominent but could be biding their time.Army components in the east have allied with rebels but are not in a leading role..

    In Benghazi  the mosques have efficiently  taken over distribution of food  and weapons.

    So  grounds for concern.. But not for scorn. 


    Give Obama some credit for honesty even if it was couched in code. He has, in fact, told the truth about our "new doctrine" which is actually the same old doctrine that has been in affect for a long time. Its just that it was written in different code before. The current phrasing is that America will persue its perceived national interests by doing whatever the hell it feels like it needs or wants to do at any given time as decided by whoever the hell is at the helm at that particular time. Every situation is different though, so don't talk about consistency in response no matter how many of the characteristics of the problem are the same. Like in America's favorite game, the pitch may be high and away or it may be low and inside or it may be aimed at the batter's ear, but if the umpire says strike then a strike it is. And strike we will. We will create reality for those who live in the real world. Its what we do best. Okay, its what we do.
     Its like fifth dimensional chess man, don't cha know? Our Knights in stealthy armor can hover over the board and, with precision, they say, pick off whatever pawns that we decide are in our way as we burn a path towards the evil king. They say. Neat and clean. They say. Those dead pawns will be sponged off the playing board and thrown in a box labeled "terrorist" or "oppressor". Nary a life [that counts] is lost. Well, okay, sometimes that part doesn't play out exactly according to script but like the kids say, "whatever."  And, its not really so expensive compared to most wars. We won't even have to pony up for very many medals since there will be no boots on the ground. At least none that we openly acknowledge.  At least that is the plan. So who can complain? Snively progressives and and their ilk should just go get a job and quit bitching so much. Wars aint cheap, you know, so be prepared to sacrifice for freedumb.
     Oh yeah, never mind, most of the progressives have quit bitching, their guy is running the board right now so all is right and good with our actions because it is us, the good guys, that are acting. We are special. So says the major dude.  
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx-Oq9GdN1E


    Whew.

    Just so I get it, does that mean that you think we shouldn't have stopped Qaddafi from occupying Benghazi?  


    What it means is that if we need to do something and our leaders choose to do that "something" then I would like them to respect me enough to tell me honestly what that "need" is. I do not believe that they respect me or that they tell me the truth. Do you?


    So you think the president should go before the cameras and do some straight talking regardless of the consequences to ongoing diplomacy and global relations that would arise from that?


    That's an excellent question, and not one with a simple answer. In the short run, it's easy to see the advantages of the "little lie" here and there. But, can you imagine how much easier our diplomacy would be if we had a long record of telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?


    "But, can you imagine how much easier our diplomacy would be if we had a long record of telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?"

    And if you can't, then so help you God.


    The truth? We can't handle the truth.

    Actually that is an excellent question.  In part, because the first initial response (for me) is "oh, without a doubt, it would be easier."  But upon second reflection, I pause and wonder if this would be necessarily the case, given the other players would continue on their talking-in-code ways.  And by "easier for our diplomacy" I am thinking of that meaning easier for our diplomacy to be successful in achieving sustainable and humane objectives. 


    You seem to have answered my question, though in a cowardly round-a-bout way by throwing a question back, which evades committing to the real answer, instead of replying directly. You seem to think that lying to the electorate in a democracy is a good and sustainable policy because it is necessary and so you are comfortable with it. Hey, that's okay. Its really all just for our viewing pleasure anyway, America loves war movies, so don't worry, be happy.


    I think those who come to dagblog are of reasonable intelligence, and anyone with reasonable intelligence would be able to come to the conclusion that you did about what I was saying through the rhetorical device of a question.  So I wasn't being a coward in my opinion since I believe it was pretty dang obvious.  But if you need me to actually say it through a declarative statement I will: there are situations and conditions in which it is not only legitimate but preferable that a president or some other government official lie to the general public, or speak in code, or in any other way not tell whole unvarnished truth. 

    I mean we could start going over all the various examples such as "let's just give the public the daily intelligence briefings so they can make their own conclusions about where American should be getting involved."  "And lets open the CDC communications to the public, too." 

    A sustainable policy in one which a government actively strives to include as much transparency and truthfulness in its day-to-day operations that allows it to function in a global world of competing agendas.  (And not to say that even in the Obama adminstration that the forces which seek to keep everything "secret" have not achieve unwarranted victories).  It also calls for, I would add, an engaged citizenary that doesn't need the administration to hold its hand when it comes to situations like Libya and who can read the code and the tea leaves that are part of that global necessity.

    Now its my turn to call you a coward.  Because you won't address the consequence of what you are asking for: truth at all costs, even it means pissing off Turkey or Pakistan or whoever, resulting in break down in negotiations which might help a situation like Kashmir or whatever.  Instead you just imply I just love a good war movie which is all what Libya is to me.  Maybe I should imply that you believe that if the US would take its military and go home, the world would suddenly break out in peace and love.


     So, apparently, you are an engaged citizen who doesn't need the administration to hold its hand when it comes to situations like Libya. You are one who can read the code. You know what parts of what they are saying is a lie when you hear it. Good for you. You can derive the truth out of the lies and so it is okay by you that you are being lied to and it is okay by you to lie to the rest of the world because it is pragmatic to disrespect their intelligence and play them for fools who cannot spot a lie after hearing it for their entire lives. Is that part of your justification? Even if the concept that our government's decision to intervene is based on humanitarian grounds is laughable, is it still a good thing to say?
     Is playing most of us and all of them for fools what makes our foreign policy work so well? 
     Look, I know nations work quietly through diplomatic channels often and don't put all their cards face up while the game is going on. That said, if our national grand strategy requires lying to the citizens of our country as well as to the whole world about its real motives or  about its security needs while it ignores long term solutions, then I am very skeptical of that strategy.

    "(And not to say that even in the Obama adminstration that the forces which seek to keep everything "secret" have not achieve unwarranted victories)."

    Maybe you could make that double negative a bit more clear for my simple mind.


    First I would say the people who come to places like dagblog represent the portion of American people who don't need their hand held by the administration.  And by that I mean we may not be able to glean the exact truth from the lies or half-truths or whatever, we can much glean when we're getting some form of spin some of the times, and only after a period of time other times, and sometimes never at all. This is why any democracy has always needed the press and will always need the press in the future. 

    But a resonably intelligent person who reasonably engaged in world affairs take what is out there in the information world, combine that with the administration puts out there, and derive reasonable conclusions about what is going on.  The president who doesn't discuss the nitty-gritty realities of global politics as well as the some of the more cold analysis which makes up foreign policy decisions is not necessarily playing the people for fools.  Now if Obama went up there and starting talking about some evidence for justifying the war that he knew didn't exist, this would be a whole another matter.  Then he would be playing us for fools.

    So I guess what I am saying is that for me, I don't expect the whole truth from my government, but I don't want to be played the fool either.  So far, from what I have seen I don't believe I have been by the administration on the Libya front, but new evidence might change that.

    Of course a lot of your current outrage is dependent upon your ability to see into the hearts of those involved and say with conviction "that our government's decision to intervene is based on humanitarian grounds is laughable."  Personally I don't know.  I do know there was mounting evidence of a potential slaughter of civilians in the eastern cities.  Whether that drove the decisions of Obama and others in his administration is something only they truly know individually.  And you, I suppose.

    Personally I think when a president has the likes of Samantha Power and Hillary Clinton providing advice, humantarian concerns were part of the equation when it came to making the decision.  Of course if one allows for this possibility, then one has alter one's critique to the action, as well of the way the administration has discussed it with the public. 

    And given your last request: The Obama administration could be more transparent and open than they have been.  My comments are not to be taken as some global statement asserting the Obama administration has told us little folks just what we needed to hear and nothing more.  Instead the point is if one's stance against a military action is going to be based on whether the president comes out and tells the world the whole cold truth about the entire decision tree which was utilized in determing the action, then I can tell you that you will be able to take a stance against 99% of all military actions.  Even those actions one might actually support. 

    There are plenty of facets of how US interacts with other countries which needs to be changed, as does our collective long term strategy.  But a bad action one day doesn't the next action is by consequence bad, just if an overall strategy is (deeply) flawed, that any actions taken is by consequence flawed (although it increases the likelihood).  Likewise, even though an administration can be shown at times to be unjustifiably withholding the truth from the public, it does not mean anytime that administration withholds the (full) truth from the public it is unjustified.


    Now this may not be the truth, strictly speaking, but it does give us some chuckles about the potential for telling the American public hard stuff.  Please at least let yourself laugh a few tiimes, okay?  It's at least illustrative of what you might deem bad for 'ongoing diplomacy and global relations that would arise from that'.   Anyhoo, have a little fun with it...


    Well it's a better shot at an explanation than most I've heard. But the core "Italy will go bankrupt without Libya oil" sounds unpersuasive to my ears. Surely they can get some light sweet crude elsewhere at a comparable price, or did Qaddafi give them some amazing bargain?

    Anyhow, danke schon (as our future overlords say)


    Yeah; it's not exactly right, but pretty refreshing nonetheless.  Don't have a clue about what their deal was on oil.

    Seems we forget that the Utter Lack of Transparency from our government is what spurred the creation of (Tada!) Wikileaks, and now Openleaks.

    Bitte.   Kiss

     


    Tried to find some info - and found this, where it says that Italy gets a quarter of its oil imports from Libya, through Eni's extraction rights in the country. But it also says Eni could easily make up for the lost production by buying/extracting the oil elsewhere. I.e. worst-case scenario, Eni's profit margin takes a moderate hit, but it won't affect the broader economy through, say, higher gas prices at the pump, or government outlays.

    So, kiiiinda implausible. Actually, make that 'totally implausible. But I honestly wish some of the people claiming there is some super-secret awesome justification/plan for the Libya intervention, that just must stay secret or it will fail horribly, I wish those people would give sooome kind of hint what the super-awesome thinking is here...


    ROTFLMAO!  Er...even a leetle French wasn't totally helpful there, Pug; not all of us know Italian.  I tried; I'll hafta take your word for it, but I do think I'd heard 25% before.  I did love the <<<offshore>>> kinds of words inserted, though!  It reminded me of listening to Navajo radio:  lalalalalalala... 'polyester suit'....lalalalalalala...

    Yeah; same thing for the folks who believe the CIA is awesome, and they tell the Prez some shit we are too stoopid to know about the dangers of  not doing ________ (fill in the blank.)  That we are supposed to be glad that the CIA and British Special Forces are on the ground now, given whatever hell Raymond Davies was up to in Pakistan, and the um...confusion about whether or not they were working with the jet bombers on the ground...well...it's hard to feel confidant of much.


    That we are supposed to be glad that the CIA and British Special Forces are on the ground now,

    Yeah well, they aren't on the ground, are they? At least they aren't wearing "boots", and putting their boots in contact with the ground, 'cos the DoD says so.

    So maybe sneakers or loafers? Or maybe, knowing Blackwater/CIA SOP, they just sit around in SUV's shooting at shit?

    Dunno, somebody should get some clarification. Or not, 'cos we're probably better off not knowing the subtleties of footwear policy...


    I'm gonna go with brand, not just type, okay?  ;o)  Greg Mitchell at the Nation calls it: Obama leaks to the press like a seive, prosecutes others for leaks (forgets 'Whistleblowers galore):

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/world/africa/31intel.html

    Was Rhodes wrong?  Or confused?  Or lying?

    http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/03/31/cia-british-special-forces-crawl-through-libya-unable-to-stop-gadhafi-military-onslaught/


    On this site I don't see anyone saying the CIA is awesome.  What is being said (by me at least) is that if the US is going to possible be involved, then it a necessity for the administration to be getting some intelligence on what is happening and who is involved.  Will the intelligence be perfect? No.  Of course not.  Now if one starts with the idea that we shouldn't be involved in Libya period regardless of circumstances (humanitarian or otherwise), then there is no reason for the CIA ops to be there.  But if one believes there might have been some conditions which would justify  involvement (regardless of whether those actually turned out to be present), the only way we could have known if those conditions were present would be for the special forces to be on the ground.  Does this mean one has to be glad about it? No.  Does this mean we shouldn't be informed of the overall scope of their operations? No.

    Similiarly, I don't see people pushing some superduper secret justification for the action.  Rather it is just the plain old run of the mill justification about various political and economic interests and agenda melding with more higher moralistic agendas which can't be really talked about by politicans when they stand at the podiums.  If actions taken for humanitarians reasons are motivated also by economic concerns taits the humantarian reasons to an extent which de-legitimizes them is something with which each of us have to struggle, just as we struggle with placing the action in Libya in a larger regional context. 


    It was not you I was pseudo-quoting, but another here.  Arrrgh; I confess I have a defintite bias against the sort of arguments where a person answers the questions she/he asked; it gives me brain-bleed.  It seems to be a gamibt to narrow the subject to the 'debeter's' framing.

    Anyhow: I also am reluctant to answer as the Xtranormal cartoon didn't get one chuckle out of you; I even gave you fair warning.

    Brief answers because I want to be a teensy bit fair:

    Yes; I struggle.  No, I do not support it.  Obama boxed himself in early, IMO, calling for Gadaffi's ouster.  Too many lies about who is on the ground, IMO, and the thingie about the Presidential finding, and Hillary's testimony to The Committee saying 'Obama doesn't care what you do; he's doing what he does'.  And no, the voice vote did not call for the US to create a no-fly zone, but exhorted the UN to create one. 

    Not one of you supporters of this venture will answer me (though Seaton hinted at it, and I reject it): 

    If Obama were so reluctant to intervene, why didn't he tell Sarkozy and Cameron that the US would abstain on 1973, and let them form the coalition, and  others who were so gung-ho to proceed without the US?  Or do you think there was some horse-trading that was too important to do that?  I can't buy the Obama thought it would up his cred in the Arab world reasoning; too much is against that, and too many other nations and peoples are feeling left out (no, not always about miltary intervention, either.  Think of the Palestinians, and Obama's silence on the killings there.  You know the rest of the list.


    I get e-mails from an outfit that touts energy stocks. They claim that though Libya's oil could be replaced by other suppliers the replacement oil is not nearly as good and would take much more refining. They go on to say that refinery capacity is already maxed out and no one is building new capacity because world total production of oil will not stay high enough to continue to need the refinery capacity that we already have. The new refinery would be unneeded long before it showed a profit. Just throwing it out there, not claiming it is correct.


    Thanks for that Lulu. I'm no expert on the oil industry at all but I do know a few oil traders here in Geneva. Your mailing-list report strikes me as slightly unconvincing. Refinery capacity can't be maxing out because there is an expectation of less demand in the future, because we expect the quality of the remaining reserves to fall, requiring by definition more refining, even if the quantity has probably roughly maxed out already. Beyond that, yes, Libyan oil is high-quality, and Eni will need more refining capacity, but they are apparently not bleeting about hitting any bottlenecks, so dunno. In any case, Italy, like most of Europe, has a high fuel tax. So if there is a threat to the economy, they can just lower those...


    Like I said, I do not endorse the claim but let me restate what I see the claim to be and point out how I see it as logical IF you accept their assertions about refinery capacity currently being used at maximum to meet current demand.
     World demand for finished product is x. Existing refineries can just barely produce x amount of finished product. Substituting different lower quality oil for that of Libya's will require more refining to produce the same x amount of finished product. More refining capacity will not be made available through new refineries because investors do not believe the raw material, crude oil, will be available for a long enough time to allow the new refinery to be paid for and to then turn a profit. Existing refineries can handle future smaller quantities of oil than they are currently handling, just not more. Result is that there will less than x amount of finished product on the market soon even if Libyan oil is replaced by lower quality oil and prices will spike enough to lower demand to an equilibrium point. That means more recession somewhere or everywhere.


    Thanks for your patience, Lulu. ;0)

    I do get the argument, I just don't find the premise plausible.

    Beyond that, there is no need for it to cause a recession, unless of course you have an incompetent government incapable of reacting appropriately to the trend in oil and oil-derivatives prices. Ie. they are freaking out about rising oil prices and tightening monetary policy when clearly they should be loosening monetary and fiscal policy much more because of the impact on nominal demand. Anyhoo, whol nuther discussion.


    That sounds like serious oilman talk.. I spent years reading the stuff, although I don't claim to really understand it, but like  I say, it sounds serious.


    You might get a boot outta this about Obama's hope that he could reset 'our' relationship with Brazil on his trip now that that freaking Commie-loving Lula's outta there.  High hopes, actually, since some Biggie at Goldman Sucks extolled the virtues of Rousseff, saying:

    "She's a different person and has a different style," remarked the chairman of Goldman Sachs asset management. 

    She was "warm" and would welcome Obama cordially (has it really gotten to the point where the US, which for decades presided imperiously over the international community, is today just happy that foreign leaders aren’t rude when its presidents come calling?).  Nearly all major news and opinion sources thought that she would be more accommodating to Washington's concerns than her predecessor, in Latin America but especially in the Middle East."

    Turned out not quite so well; Brazil abstained from the vote, and Dilma is reportedly mega-peeved about Libya (of course they wanted a permanent seat on the SC, but anyhoo...

    So the IMF is pushing her hard to inititate austerity measures (see: ME nations f'ed up by neoliberal IMF policies, as in Egypt, etc.) and she's bucking them, calling out Obama on his trade hypocrisy, etc.  But here's the greatest bit from the piece:

    "She was "warm" and would welcome Obama cordially (has it really gotten to the point where the US, which for decades presided imperiously over the international community, is today just happy that foreign leaders aren’t rude when its presidents come calling?)"

    (Remember when Presidents weren't so much about trade policy on their trips abroad? )

    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/03/201133014435832732.html#


    If they respected you, then they'd be unable to get money to fund their campaigns. If they told you the truth, then you'd know they didn't respect you. (I seriously hope no one thinks I'm justifying those actions, though.)


    Certainly I'd like it if our leaders told us the truth.But if I had to choose between that and preventing Qaddafi's occupation of Benghazi, protecting human lives gets my vote. 


    We won't know that for some time? ... and he may take it anyway.


    Steely Dan. Sweet. 


    I like Steely Dan a lot but I always thought that the line,"Any major dude will tell you" was right up there on the all-time lames ass list with,"Searching in the sun for another over-load". Lame-ass politicians come up with worse but that is a whole different category of "art".  They cannot even hold a tune.


    Promoting democracy is great when used merely as a rhetorical device. In practice, it's awful because democratic governments can prove unpredictable and cannot be bought off the same way that shahs, kings, and colonels can.

    Anyone who has studied the Suez crisis of 1956 knows where this thing is going. Britain and France joined together to kick Egypt's butt, until the U.S. and U.S.S.R. joined forces to oppose it. (By the way, while no one was looking, Israel joined France and the UK in order to "capture" the Gaza strip, which they kept.  This time around, Israel controls US policy and we may wind up on the wrong side in this war.


    Psst. I think you slipped out of character!


    Pssssst!  It's what happens when people of his ilk's mumsies make them put their trousers or skirts on backwards in the mornings....


    Re Suez: Israel didn't simply "join" Britain and France in attacking Egypt. In a prearranged tripartite "conspiracy" -- for once, that's not hyperbole -- it drove to the banks of the canal in order to give the two old colonialist powers an excuse to intervene militarily to "safeguard" the canal. In effect to de-nationalize it.

    They'd cooked up this plan without informing the U.S. president, who promptly threatened to call in WW II debts if they didn't withdraw. They did, governments fell, and the first UN peacekeeping force replaced occupying troops on the canal. Israel pulled back from Gaza and the Sinai at that time, only reoccupying them 11 years later. After yet another war, the Sinai was traded back to Egypt for peace and recognition. Gaza was left in Israeli hands, although the cabinet was apparently not unanimous on keeping it. Probably should have dumped it back on Egypt.

    One major upshot of the Suez crisis was that the West lost virtually all moral standing to denounce or obstruct the Soviet Union's crushing of the Hungarian revolution, which had broken out a few days before. As quite a few have pointed out, this intervention isn't really enhancing the West's moral standing either.


    "Gadaffi envoy in Britain for secret talks":

    "Some aides working for Gaddafi's sons, however, have made it clear that it may be necessary to sideline their father and explore exit strategies to prevent the country descending into anarchy.

    One idea that the sons have reportedly suggested – which the Guardian has been unable to corroborate – is that Gaddafi give up real power.

    Mutassim, presently the country's national security adviser, would become president of an interim national unity government which would include the country's opposition.

    It is an idea, however, unlikely to find support among the country's rebels or the international community who are demanding Gaddafi's removal.   (File that under: Well, duh,)

    The revelation that contacts between Britain and a key Gaddafi loyalist had taken place came as David Cameron hailed the defection of Koussa as a sign the regime was crumbling. "It tells a compelling story of the desperation and the fear right at the very top of the crumbling and rotten Gaddafi regime," he said.


    From the NY Times:

    Fears that the regime could be cracking were deepened further when a second top Libyan official, Ali Abdussalam el-Treki, defected Thursday to Egypt. Mr. Treki had served as both foreign minister and as ambassador to the United Nations, where he was president of the General Assembly.

    The capital of Tripoli was alive with rumored defections on Thursday, with the prime minister and the speaker of Parliament, among other top figures, said at various times to be quitting the country. None of those reports could be verified. But the authorities were taking no chances, assigning guards to senior officials to assure they cannot leave, a former Libyan official said.


    Rats, sinking ships...

    Hadn't been to Huffpo for awhile; David Bromwich sorta belongs to my ilk, even after one page.  Gotta go for now:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-bromwich/cia-libya-obama-_b_843166.html

    He's bullish on Hifter as CIA-friendly, I think.  And I still would like to know how the conversations went with Clinton and the 'rebel leaders' in where was it...London?  I forget now.


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