Danny Cardwell's picture

    Is There A Spiritual Path To Reason?

    It's been my experience that faith rooted in cautious optimism and doubt is less likely to devolve into dogmatism. All of us believe something: especially those trapped in nihilism who profess not to believe anything. The amount of certainty one places in their worldview, coupled with an inability to accept or even process information contrary to that worldview, leads directly to a solipsistic position that makes civil discussions about religion almost impossible. The inability to consider ideas that don't originate from people who share your worldview is symptomatic of deep dogmatism.

    I often hear Christians say we need a national religious awakening. This position assumes that all of our problems could be solved with a rededication to spirituality. I've been chastised for pointing out that we (as a nation) have never lived the religious fantasy many Christians are hungry for. It's more reasonable to hope or pray for a unified commitment to critical thinking and civility. If the Christian narrative of original sin is true, then believers who are calling for this Christian renaissance should know it's doomed to fail. Greed, avarice and hostility are built into our DNA.

    We have religious, political and media organizations that are invested in systematically misinforming people. The university, scholarship and intellectualism have become sacrificial lambs at the shrines of religious and political ideologies. I write this as a religious person who is actively engaged in theological studies. Is there a way to balance metaphysical faith with scientific reason? I don't know if there's a yellow brick road everyone is capable of following. Any believer attempting to walk such a path should ask themselves what am I willing to give up?

    If there's a spiritual path to reason it has to be built on humility. Faith and reason don't have to be part of any positive or negative synthesis. They can be independent postulates that function together. Religious faith doesn't equate to moral superiority, and a belief in scientific theory doesn't equate to intellectual superiority. It's possible to walk and chew gum at the same time, but too few are willing to risk biting their tongue. 

    Comments

    Danny,
    .

    You asked, "Is There A Spiritual Path To Reason?" The answer is an unequivocal no, because without reason the concept of spirituality is meaningless. Reason is the glue that holds ALL concepts together.  But if you turn your question around and ask, "is there a reasonable path to spiritualism?" The answer is absolutely. You see, the way you posed the question gives spirituality priority over reason, and nothing can be given priority over reason, because, by definition, anything that lacks reason, lacks validity. On the other hand, it is quite "reasonable" to use reason (or logic) to formulate a spiritual philosophy.

    Reason informs my spirituality. I use reason to define God. "God is whatever force is responsible for what we define as reality." Thus, for me, God, Nature, and the Universe are one. So based on my definition that God and the laws of nature are one, that precludes ANYTHING from being "SUPERnatural," since nothing in nature can be superior to nature itself.


    I like the inversion of this question as a way of advancing the discussion. I didn't think of approaching the problem that way. Maybe I should have amended the question to ask: can we balance spirituality and reason? I don't seek to deny scientific reason; I admire the pursuit of knowledge. I don't have a visceral reaction to physics. When someone offers up a cogent theory about the origins of life. I don't assume their theory negates the uncaused cause or displaces an omnipotent God, but that their theory works to add clarity to the mysteries of creation. I've traveled in circles where my questioning of religious texts have caused me certain discomfort; likewise, I have had my metaphysical beliefs questioned to the point where my competence and intellect were called into question. The fact that I was born in the south directly influenced the religion of my childhood, but as an adult the choice to identify as a christian is based on the grounding of my morals in the teachings of Jesus. I could easily find many of the same precepts in other teachings. I freely admit that my "God" isn't bigger or better than anyone else's. These religions are (for some) vehicles to outwardly express their innermost vulnerabilities. I have fasted during Ramadan and participated in Unitarian Church services. I'm concerned with people, energy, and ideas. What I have gotten from my faith doesn't translate into material evidence I could produce. That's where faith comes in. My faith isn't dependent upon any external factors. I'm open to the idea that I could be wrong. Thanks for engaging. I appreciate the fact that you took time to read and respond to this post. PEACE!


    All of us believe something: especially those trapped in nihilism who profess not to believe anything.

    As an atheist, I completely agree with you. (I know many atheists who would not, however.) One of these days I plan on writing a post about my particular "dogma". As a prelude, I'd suggest that my fundamental axiom is, "There are no supernatural events." (I think I can probably tease out one or two other axioms, but the rest of my "dogma" can be seen as corollaries of just a few small axioms.)


    I look forward to reading your thoughts. I agree with your premise that there are no supernatural events. I don't believe in a God who directly intervenes in the lives of people. I'm a deist when it comes to religious phenomenon. Thanks for commenting. Peace!


    It depends on how one defines supernatural events. Spirituality, and the nature of reality, is so much more complicated than that. Many of my most powerful spiritual experiences that had a profound effect on my thinking and the direction of my life would be classified as hallucinations, without the use of drugs, and discounted by science.


    Yours and Danny's responses are appreciated, and will help me in framing my creed (I've decided that I prefer "creed" to "dogma") when I put it to paper. I think you will disagree with my creed, but I hope to lay it out in a way that is respectful to your beliefs. When I talk about my beliefs, part of that is reframing some of the spiritual experiences that I've personally had. I think that atheists who have never been religious might not be able to understand the perspective I will lay out.


    When I " hear Christians say we need a national religious awakening" what I think they mean is that they want the laws, rules, and norms of behavior to reflect their particular interpretation of the bible. That doesn't seem like spirituality to me but the desire to impose their views of proper behavior on other people. I disagree with the choices many Christians make when they decide which parts of the bible are important and which parts can be ignored. I certainly will not behave as they wish nor do I think society would be better if everyone behaved as they wish.

    Many people have trouble saying, "I don't know" and living in a state of not knowing the answers to many important questions. The gap between the universe, how it works, why it is,  and what science has discovered about the universe is immense. Faith and belief is used by many to fill that gap. When science reaches an unknown people put whatever particular version of god they have faith in onto that unknown.

    I don't think there is a spiritual path to reason but there are rational paths to spirituality. Yoga in its purest form, separated from the religions normally associated with it, is one of those paths. In the west yoga is usually practiced as stretching exercises but that's only one type of yoga, hatha yoga. There are many types of yoga.  The postures, called asanas, while often used here as exercise were not intended that way. Asana actually means, seat for meditation.

    Yoga in its pure form is simply a set of practices. Spiritual teachers share those practices, what they experienced, and what they learned from them. They claim those practices will lead to spiritual awakening and enlightenment. But they are also clear that faith and belief in the things they say will happen or what they learned will profit no one. Only if one practices will one advance spiritually. Its much like science. Here's some experiments. Here's what happened and what people have learned when they did the experiments. Try the experiments yourself and you will have similar experiences and learn similar things.

    While my spiritual path has been very important to me it was only peripherally connected with organized religion. As a mystic I looked for experiential knowledge of spirit. So while I may have chanted for several days with little sleep with Gurumayi Chidvilasananda in a Hindu temple it was the mantra yoga I was there for. I didn't have faith or belief in the stories and myths of the religion of Hinduism. When I went to the Lakota reservation to vision quest, do sweat lodges and sun dances the goal was what could be learned and experienced of spirit. I didn't have faith or belief in the myths and stories of the Lakota religion. For me to grow and advance spiritually it wasn't necessary for me to have any faith or belief in any of the stories in the books of any religion.

    In fact often the book and the organized religion is an impediment to spiritual growth. My sister is a charismatic christian. From my yoga studies I could understand exactly what was happening as those around me began to speak in tongues and fell into trances. I've had similar ecstatic spiritual experiences. But while I understood and sought out similar experiences I could never fit in with those people. They took those spiritual experiences and subscribed to the book, and more often than not, those who told them what to believe and do because of the book. The experiences are an important and much neglected part of human consciousness and much can be learned from the practice. But they do not prove that Jesus is god, the bible is the inerrant word of god, and that all other religions are the work of satan. Just as having a spiritual wakening while chanting in a Hindu temple doesn't prove the Hindu holy books are true.

     


    Proof, The recorded history of the Hebrew God delivering the Hebrews from slavery after he brought plagues upon Egypt.

    Proving which God was more powerful.

    The Gods of Egypt or the God of the Hebrew slaves?

    People ignoring the account of Exodus just proves people are ignorant because they choose to be.  

    The Hebrews kept a good record of these events. 

    Science reinforces the FACTS recorded 

    Evidence of Chariot Wheels in the Red Sea Found in 2000

    BTW  Most cultures have the Teaching of THE GREAT DELUGE written about in Genesis.


    The Exodus story is nonsense right from the start. From god's first miracle in Egypt, there's no scientific explanation or proof that god changed a staff into a snake though I have no doubt you'll come up with some cockamamie explanation. The total ridiculousness of the story isn't the worse part. It's the pathologically evil  nature of god that's the worst. The thought that your religion offers as a moral principle the slaughter of innocents to achieve his goal, no matter how worthy that goal may be, is horrendous. Among those first born killed there were surely numerous children as young as a few weeks old. Again I'm sure you have some cockamamie justification for this genocide. Frankly I think your god is a monster. Or I would think that if I believed he exists and actually did the things it says he did in the bible

    If I seriously believed my god had killed every first born child and animal in Egypt to free me from slavery I'd reject him and willingly submit to slavery as penance for my part in that crime.


    I'm not sure that slaves who saw their women raped, ate leftovers, wore rags, and felt the lash would be so ready to reject relief from their burden by having their tormentors wiped from the face of the Earth.

    Many Christians evaluate the entire message of the Bible rather than a snippet by snippet analysis. This approach drives Christian Fundamentalists and some Atheists crazy. The latter groups use an " all or none approach to the Bible. For them if there is any statement in the Bible that is flawed, the entire text must be thrown out. Many Christians view the " all or none approach" as missing the forest for the trees. The freeing message of the Bible gets lost in arguing about a blight on one leaf.

    For those looking at the overall message in the Bible rather than the snippet approach reject the idea that the Bible tells Christians to stone disobedient children. The story of the Prodigal Son is taken as the message. There is no support for the vile rape culture, race-based, violence driven American slavery found anywhere in the Bible. We were bought with a price and are instructed not to submit to any other man. Women do not have to meekly submit to their husbands anymore than husbands are to be henpecked. Marriage is a partnership. The care for the poor is the clarion message of the Bible.

    Christians walk by faith, not by sight and have no problem with the journey.


    I can certainly agree that there are parts of the bible that impart a good lesson. With so many different authors there's bound to be some that are wise and some foolish, some good and some evil. Matthew 25, the goats and sheep parable, is one of my favorites. And I'm glad that most christians have rejected or at least chosen to ignore some of the worst lessons of the bible. For example I'm glad you all have decided to stop burning witches.

    But the basic reality is that the bible claims god did and commanded many things that if any man did them we would consider him psychotic. I don't think god gets a free pass that a man would not get just because he's god.  Look what you're attempting to justify here because of your allegiance to the book. If a slave owner raped a slave's daughter I can see a moral justification for killing the slave owner. But I can't see a moral justification for bashing in the head of the slave owner's two week old child.  I think that's obvious and I think you do too.

    I'd like to think that if I knew god as going to kill every first born child in Egypt I wouldn't simply splash some blood on the door. I'd like to think I'd have the courage to spread the word to all the people of Egypt about the incipient genocide and how they too could protect themselves. Just as I'd like to think I would have had the courage to hide a Jew from genocide in Hitler's Germany. But you know, I've never been tested with my life on the line so I don't know how deep my moral convictions really go.


    The Atantic republished this article about Nat Turner's rebellion in 1861, thirty years after Turner's 1831 revolt. The author was an ardent abolitionist and used the story of the rebellion to inspire others to join the antislavery movement. Note that Turner's goal was to spare no life until he gained power.

    Madman?

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1861/08/nat-turners-insurrec...


    As I noted my "allegiance" to the Book does not include agreeing that stoning adulterers, prostitutes, and disobedient  children is the message of Jesus. On your specific example of choosing slavery over freedom if it required harm to the slave owners family is not the hypothetical choice that I would make.

    I'm putting things in terms of the form of slavery practiced in the United States. Selling off families, brutalizing, raping and killing slave family was not uncommon. There was even a term used for slaves who attempted to flee slavery, drapetomania. Given the harshness of the system , I have to be honest and say that I would have been on the side of Nat Turner.


    Well you'll find a lot of support for that view in the bible considering the numerous times it claims god told the believers to go in and kill every man, women, and child in a city. Sometimes every animal as well. That's not a moral code I can subscribe to.
     


    This is all hypothetical. I can understand Nat Turner's viewpoint. If there was a chance for freedom do you take it even if you have to kill? Do you choose to remain a captive and allow abuse of your family to continue? I think Nat Turner made a good decision. 

    If one of the girls captured by Boko Horam escaped and killed a child to prevent the child from screaming, is she a villain or a hero? Should she stay a captive or go for freedom?

    You are correct about the violence in the Bible. Moses killed a slave driver beating a Hebrew slave to death. Should he have just stood by?

    http://evidenceforchristianity.org/hebrews-1124-27-says-moses-leaving-eg...

    (We have veered of off the topic of the post)


    It's one thing to kill a slave driver beating a slave.  I can easily see the moral justification for that. It's quite another to bash in the head of his one year old baby sleeping in a crib near by.  It's not hypothetical. The story is quite clear. In the Exodus story god killed every first born of every household in Egypt where the door was not splashed with blood. Surely there was some mother giving birth that day and minutes after giving birth god killed the baby. Surely there were children just weeks old killed. Surely there were poor Egyptians who never owned a slave or interacted in any way with a slave who had a child killed. As immoral as I view Turner's plan to kill every white man, women, and child they found he at least spared a few poor whites. God was more psychotic and pathologically evil than Turner.


    I consider it hypothetical because neither of us are held in bondage. It is easy to speculate on how militant or forgiving we would be. Hypothetical militancy could turn to cowardice and hypothetical forgiveness could turn to rage. It is easy to call Nat Turner crazy despite the insanity of his situation since there is no skin in the game.

    Regarding the Biblical aspect of the discussion. If the Hebrews were released from bondage, it would have been the end of the story. There were repeated To go further, Pharaoh ordered all of his subjects to drown every male Hebrew child. 

    http://biblehub.com/exodus/1-22.htm

    Hebrews were held in bondage for 400 years. Moses gave repeated warnings to Pharaoh to free the Hebrews. The Egyptians had the ability to reject the Pharaoh's vicious ruling. Circumcision was an option (meaning conversion).


    This has nothing to do with what I might do in a terrible situation. I'm sure if I was tortured I'd eventually do and say anything no matter how depraved to stop the pain. But I wouldn't call it moral. One can find a moral justification for killing slave owners. While I disagree with the morality of killing the slave owner's wives, since women at that time were only a few steps above slaves, I can understand the argument that they also often owned slaves. But during Turner's rebellion they literally bashed in the heads of babies in cradles. I'm not saying killing a child is worse than killing an adult. But the baby is innocent of any moral crime that could be used to justify that murder.

    Your moral code that justifies the killing of infants, of innocents, is the same moral code that is used by Al Qaeda to justify their terrorism. The US has killed thousands of innocent men women and children in Iraq ect so they claim they are justified in killing innocent Americans.

    To defend the killing of innocents to achieve a goal is abhorrent. You disgust me.


    I used to run into similar arguments when debating capital punishment with friends (or otherwise) who supported it. They'd ask, "You mean if someone killed your mother, you wouldn't want them to be killed?" I'd answer, "Well, sure I would, but that wouldn't make it right."

    Now, putting aside the morality of capital punishment, what you're describing is even worse, because infants are truly innocent. However, given what he went through, one could possibly understand why Turner did what he did. That does not make it right, just (possibly) understandable.

    When we're talking about God killing infants in Egypt, it's not even understandable because, according to current thought at least, God is supposed to be perfect. (Back when the Old Testament was written, I think the thought of a perfect God – omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent – had yet to be conceived.)


    The killing would have involved the male firstborn, adult and child. The prevention would have been through freeing the slaves.

    Secular arguments have been made that freeing the slaves as the end effect of the Civil War was not worth the number of lives lost.


    Denmark Vesey, another man who plotted a slave revolt, was hung for his efforts. Vesey is considered a hero by many. Frederick Douglass used Vesey's name as a rallying cry to encourage enlistment in the first all-Black regiment.

    http://www.blackpast.org/aah/denmark-vesey-conspiracy-1822

    William Stryon won a Pulitzer Prize for a less than stellar view of Nat Turner in " The Confessions of Nat Turner". The book was criticized by many in the Black community.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Confessions_of_Nat_Turner

    Views differ on whether Turner and Vesey were heroes or villains.


    BTW  Most cultures have the Teaching of THE GREAT DELUGE written about in Genesis.

    BTW Most cultures have similar stories to the ancient Egyptian creation myths, and the Sumerian creation myth ( where "...After a missing section in the tablet, we learn that the gods have decided not to save mankind from an impending flood"...)

    including the later "Genesis" of the Bible


    P.S. It's all basically always about wrestling with the metaphorical Nile.

    Like your high school English teacher taught you. there's three main grand themes in literature: man vs. man, man vs. nature, man vs. self.

    Noah won the man vs. nature contest with his brain. Actually, it's not a very environmentally friendly message, where a single man becomes the Nietzchean overman who selects which species are to be bred, not even that respectful to a creator if one believes there is one.


    The one who commanded the building of the ark decides who lives and dies

    It's his to give and take and if the creation doesn't like it  .....tough.

    To those upstream of your reply AA 

    Let us see if you can breathe on inanimate objects and give it life;

    Try to survive in a lifeless world of Magma and Sea. and procreate 

    To those who think it is cruel; The creator doesn't need your approval or base his opinion upon whether you like it or not.

    Serve him and live, if not; return to the dust from hence you came. Lifeless 

    The Creator didn't create Paradise Earth (Eden) for disobedient ones, he decides who lives in the Garden he intended.

    The Creator wants all to be saved, but the Creator of the Universe doesn't need to adjust his standards; it is humans that need to adjust.


    Or not.


    Thanks for reading and choosing to comment. I can't say I disagree with your arguments. I have found great pleasures in self contemplative situations and with others. I like your commitment to new spiritual experiences. Traditions are meant to be passed down. The rituals or practices associated with a region or people have a way of connecting the best of their tradions with the outside world. Keep searching for your path.


    Bingo! It's the search for enlightenment that's important. The stories, the dogma, and the ceremonial rituals are all a part of the delusional contrivances of man. What evidence do I have of that? Our current condition.

    Science can only deal with what is measurable. What cannot be measured does not exist. Dark matter "exists" because an impact can be measured. String theory on the other hand is more faith-based. Science can measure the impact of an antibiotic on a patient with an infection by improvement in the number of white cells and inflammatory proteins. Science cannot measure whether an individual's faith impacted the response to the antibiotic. Other than someone writing that they have faith on a questionnaire, there is no way to measure how much faith a person had that they would get better. Their is no accurate brain scan for faith acting in a particular situation. From a standpoint of science, faith is not a measureable quantity therefore it does not exist and has no measurable impact.


    The questions you ask require some philosophy. Maybe more than a little.

    If faith and reason are to be both mutually exclusive and yet have something do with each other, that is a certain way of talking about the universal. The way Thomas Aquinas looked at that question is very different than the way Calvin did. They both would have been comfortable reciting the Nicene Creed together, if time and place had permitted.

    Kierkegaard explored the limits of an explicit psychology in the face of choices that could only be made by an individual in their time of making decisions. His register for the religious was accepting that the choice is bigger than the explanation of it.

    One great thing about the Taoist tradition is their focus on the limits of any explanation of the best path. They don't answer your question because the two sides of the duality are a function of language instead of two things that are experienced as themselves. The tradition does not accept the natural confusion of the mind as an acceptable reason to stop getting better at the good things.

    And then there is Socrates and his demand that the unexamined life is not worth living and the question of where that falls on the continuum between faith and reason.

    I left out a lot of things but you probably get the idea.


    I found your comment to be very enlightening. Thanks for engaging this topic.


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