MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Comments
Read more, as they say. Read. More.
by barefooted on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 4:42pm
It is hard for many to accept this truth.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 4:49pm
It is hard for many to understand it as true - the idea of rose-colored glasses applies.
by barefooted on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 5:31pm
Civility and disruption are not opposites. There was nothing King did that was uncivil on my interpretation of what civility entails yet his approach was obviously highly and intentionally disruptive. It was just considered disruptiveness rather than lashing out in sheer fury and frustration at one's antagonists without trying to consider, first, whether it will more likely advance the message and aims you are trying to advance or set those back.
Probably the vast majority of us are not especially suited, or suited at all, for civil disobedience, King or Ghandi style.
There are lots of alternative activist options to that. Which among those you consider uncivil do you advocate?
Do you advocate them because you believe they are more likely to be helpful than not to your aims? Before you act, do you pause and consider potential ways they might backfire? Or do you not take such considerations into the thought processes you engage in when deciding how you are going to act, or when you are privately reacting to actions others are taking?
by AmericanDreamer on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 5:31pm
Lots of questions, there, Dreamer - who are you asking, if anyone specifically?
Probably the vast majority of us are not especially suited, or suited at all, for civil disobedience, King or Ghandi style.
I don't think that's a requirement, if it ever was. The reasons for any sort of civil unrest are fluid and therefore will never rest upon the same identifiers as those that were previously considered. Though history may direct us, it no longer identifies us, nor do past leaders of past causes.
It's time to let King rest. He did his time. This is ours.
by barefooted on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 5:46pm
Extending earlier exchanges he and I have been having of late, and in response to the subject of this post, I was thinking mainly of rmdrooo. But happy to read your thoughts as well as those of any others who want to reply.
It sounds as though you are sick of me writing about the 1960s and King. Message heard. Respectfully I disagree that we should leave that history to the side and treat it as not relevant to our times. Of course there are differences.
by AmericanDreamer on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 9:57pm
If I gave you the impression that I am "sick of" anything you've written in regards to King (or the 60's, for that matter), then I did not express myself well. That said, I'm fairly certain that I wrote nothing that suggested that we should "leave that history to the side and treat it as not relevant to our times". I can certainly be more clear about my intent if you will provide quotes that describe your contention.
by barefooted on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 10:26pm
American Dreamer: I just want to put in a peep here that while the topics of non-violent resistance and civil disobedience are not ones where I have a lot of desire to enter into discussion, I do make it a point to read any comments or posts you make in this vein. Because I know from your history here how well read you are on the topic! Just saying so you know that your efforts are appreciated, I do seek out what you say on it and think on it. And that includes enjoying your replies when challenged.
by artappraiser on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 2:33am
Thank you, aa. Much appreciated.
by AmericanDreamer on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 11:56am
Public shaming of Trump Administration members is not uncivil.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 7:00pm
Well if so then why is a supposed obsession with civility problematic (if you think it is)?
by AmericanDreamer on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 10:01pm
I have posed repeated articles that show that King was not considered civil during his lifetime.You decide to change things to fit your definition of civility. There is no evidence that the civility you desire actually works. We are fighting authoritarians.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/29/2018 - 10:54pm
King was called anything and everything under the sun. I don't doubt he was at some point called uncivil. But he wasn't. Just because some people accused him of incivility doesn't mean the charges were true.
He acted with consummate respect for the dignity and the person of his adversaries, evidenced by his commitment not to inflict physical harm on others. This commitment and his largely making good on it helped him and other civil rights freedom fighters win battles for public opinion and helped win passage of important legislation as well as producing many other tangible benefits.
by AmericanDreamer on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 12:03pm
Before you act, do you pause and consider potential ways they might backfire?
In the real world, Dreamer, how do you react? Personally, I've had some less than calm experiences with overtly racist people that have necessitated my immediate response - to protect other people. I've told others that their comments are unappreciated and unwelcome, and I've involved law enforcement when required. All while clearly in a very public venue. Just a small example, or two, of how pausing and considering doesn't always work when it's in your face.
by barefooted on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 1:23am
You can’t remain civil when Nazis are beating up clergy as occurred in Charlottesville. Clergy lives were saved by people countering force with force.
Edit to add:
Hillary Clinton notes that nothing is more uncivil than snatching children from their mothers
http://thehill.com/homenews/394813-clinton-rips-complaints-about-civility-what-is-more-uncivil-and-cruel-than-taking
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 11:28am
I try to control my temper and think before I act. Partly because I am generally a low key, outwardly calm and respectful person, at work and at home, I believe it enhances the effect when I react sharply, either semi-deliberately (reminds me of the tag line in sitcom or movie dialog: "I can be spontaneous. There's just a time and place for it.")--or not thoughtfully, just because I'm not always successful.
Understood that different individuals have different temperaments and preferences when it comes to these things. There are, it seems to me, also highly relevant gender, class, power and other life circumstantial factors that can play a role in how different individuals act in such situations, and in how such actions are interpreted in light of variable societal norms.
I freely admit to a concern that if it becomes popular to accept a view that civility is BS that that will not redound to the benefit of many of those whose legitimate grievances I very much want to see addressed constructively and soon.
It also seems clear to me that different folks in this thread have different understandings of civility. To try saying another way something I have tried to say several times: civility does not in any way imply passivity or acceptance in the face of injustice, at least not as I interpret it.
I also do not want to be understood to be saying that I don't believe incivility can ever be justified. Because I don't believe that, either. I am concerned that there are some at this time of especially high national tensions, with many people extremely upset and wondering how much they can and have to take without losing it, who seem eager to dismiss it. This sounds to me implicitly to be advocating for more incivility without any suggestion as to what specifically is meant by that and what if any lines are appropriate to draw.
by AmericanDreamer on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 12:38pm
That does not always work in direct confrontation.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 2:01pm
I, too, am an almost to the point of irritatingly calm person, until I can't be. I, too, am low-key and respectful both at work and at home. I, too, try to control my temper and think before I act - yet as I tried to convey earlier all of the above is sometimes just not possible. Life intervenes. And considering the times in which we find ourselves, both politically and societally, if we don't recognize that life has indeed intervened then we may very well be lost.
Understood that different individuals have different temperaments and preferences when it comes to these things. There are, it seems to me, also highly relevant gender, class, power and other life circumstantial factors that can play a role in how different individuals act in such situations, and in how such actions are interpreted in light of variable societal norms.
What does that mean? I appreciate your choice of words, your general approach and your considered commentary in most cases, but I have to question this one. Why is my "gender, class, power" highly relevant in regards to this issue?
by barefooted on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 7:43pm
Well, for example, sometimes people who feel deeply aggrieved live in desperate circumstances can feel as though they have little to lose and so may contemplate actions they might not otherwise consider. Sometimes it works the other way and an individual living in desperate circumstances can feel too defeated, or simply be too exhausted or in too poor health to take any sort of protest action.
by AmericanDreamer on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 9:52pm
In the context of your original comment, Dreamer, that doesn't hold up. It sounds like a throwaway argument to appease me, and because I think better of you than that I'd like for you to try again.
You can start by explaining how gender plays a role.
by barefooted on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 10:12pm
Would you agree or disagree that women, in our society, are less likely than men to take up arms in protest?
by AmericanDreamer on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 10:31pm
Are we still talking about civility in our political climate? If so, are we also considering the owner of the Red Hen and Maxine Waters?
by barefooted on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 10:38pm
I'm responding to those who sound to me as though they are rejecting civility in connection with resistance efforts in the current context, and considering possible implications and consequences of doing so.
by AmericanDreamer on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 11:09pm
But you're not responding to me. My questions, I believe, were clear: how does gender play a role/are we talking about the same thing? You gave me word salad. I'm still waiting for an explanation of how and why being a female affects the subject at hand.
by barefooted on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 11:31pm
It sounds to me as though we are treating different things as the subject at hand. I am treating the subject as civility in connection with resistance or protest actions, generally. It was with that understanding that I made the comment you are asking me about. You are treating the subject as specific actions of the Red Hen restaurant owner and Rep. Waters. I haven't thought about whether or how the gender of these two individuals impacted their actions. I don't have an opinion on that. I have elsewhere offered reactions to their actions.
by AmericanDreamer on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 11:59pm
First of all, I apologize for the "word salad" comment.
You wrote, "Would you agree or disagree that women, in our society, are less likely than men to take up arms in protest?", and my response regarding the two women who are the stimuli at the forefront of the current debate seemed like an obvious one. I will add to that the Women's March, the women running in record numbers for elected office and the effect of the "MeToo" movement - I see that as "civility in connection with resistance or protest actions" by women; far more effectively than men have managed. Is that considered taking up arms? In the eye of the beholder, I suppose, but it damn sure looks like it to me.
So ... I heartily disagree.
by barefooted on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 7:29pm
Just like to add for your point that @ the Senate Office Building just a few days ago, the almost 600 protestors arrested were "mostly women" and I believe they were associated with Women's March Times are achanging.
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 7:40pm
Martin Luther King lucked into a protest that was established by black church women. Rosa Parks was the public face, but other women were the real plaintiffs in the case.Except for the Little Rock Nine which was coed and James Meredith at Ole Miss, most inroads in desegregating education was done by women. The women of the Black Panthers were pushed to the side when it came to public appearances despite their hard work. BLM was founded by black women. Black women are running for office in large number.
MostBlack churches would collapse without black women, so it is unlikely that William Barber would have risen to national status.by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 8:33pm
On how King basically fell into, or was dragged into, the role he played in the Montgomery bus boycott, the best account I've read is Troy Jackson's Becoming King: Martin Luther King, Jr. and the Making of a National Leader.
On the leadership role of women in the Montgomery bus boycott matter, see The Montgomery Bus Boycott and the Women Who Started It: The Memoir of Jo Ann Gibson Robinson. The author was one of the key leaders of that effort. She was an unsung heroine.
In his autobiography, Walking with the Wind, Rep. John Lewis referenced tensions between men and women within the civil rights movement. Well, no surprise there. There are all these men with large egos, seemingly trying to outdo one another for the Martin Luther King, Jr., King of the Mountain Oratory Prize while the women are doing all the work behind the scenes, while rarely even being acknowledged, let alone credited. Lewis in his book referred to a time when fed up women, feeling completely dissed by men in the movement, undertook what he called a "p**** strike" to try to get their attention.
I've cited, in long ago comments at dag, Rosa Parks as an example of someone who, according to the mythology, was a meek woman who just one day got fed up and refused to move, as though it was some sort of spontaneous action. She was anything but. She was a longtime, dedicated, savvy activist. And the entire boycott effort was very carefully thought through and executed, from the outset. As you probably know. I've cited this to contrast hot-headed, often individual, spontaneous expressions of anger, on the one hand, versus considered, thought-through collaborative campaigns. It seems to me the latter are usually more likely to be effective.
by AmericanDreamer on Tue, 07/03/2018 - 11:22am
Your comments about Rosa Parks remind me that she threw a rock at a white boy who had thrown at rock at her.
https://solidarity-us.org/rosa_parks_at_100/
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/03/2018 - 1:18pm
In other versions he threatened her and she picked up a brick but didn't throw it. My guess is throwing it would have been pretty dumb, but YMMV.
But still, I hadn't realized Rosa Parks was 42 at the time of her arrest (and yes, she'd been with the NAACP for 13 years and active much longer; it just happened that the particular bus incident was unplanned, but the bus boycott movement among other efforts was well established).
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/04/2018 - 5:34am
Was just thinking that In the end, wasn't the "meekness" mythology something that gained her even more respect than someone who is a well-known leader ? I remember watching for a couple hours on C-Span the huge numbers of people paying their respects when her body was laid in the Capitol for two days and being so touched I was crying. There is something special about the idea of "an ordinary person" doing something heroic.
(Surprises me that looking up that link that it happened in 2005 during the years of the Bush presidency! Plus, more than a decade and I remember watching it like it was yesterday. I note there that the first woman and the second African-American to lie in state there. She was the 31st person, the first American who had not been a U.S. government official, and the second private person (after the French city planner Pierre L'Enfant) to be honored in this fashion. Whoever was behind doing that, it was a great thing to do for our country. I see that a statue was authorized for the Capitol by Congress at the same time, but not unveiled in 2013 )
I think my crying, my emotion, was about the "ordinary person" thing, that so many saw her that way and wanted to honor her for her bravery.
It comes to mind that Ghandi tried to go with this "ordinary person"/humility thing with his personality and later with his dress and the whole homespun thing, even though he had been a lawyer, he tried to always do the "ordinary person" thing.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/04/2018 - 6:58pm
Perceptive comment, aa. (please pardon--remainder of this comment is an attempt to respond to comments or questions made by others as well as you in this thread) I think she was "ordinary" in the sense that most people seem to think of it, as a person without formal titles or high official positions. She was an active citizen, she was highly respected apparently among her peers, and she was courageous. As are many extraordinary "ordinary" citizens. She projected as relatively relatable.
And she was a she, making her almost automatically less threatening from a public relations standpoint. Had it been a black man who did just as she did, however "meekly" he was viewed generally and during the incident, would the Montgomery bus boycott effort have taken a very different path?
Decisions Gandhi made about how he was going to live his life were deliberately made to maximize his ability to present as not an elite, but as someone who, if not "ordinary", demonstrably understood what life was like for most of the people he was recruiting because he was living, relatively speaking, more as they were. And so he was much closer to being relatable on that account.
He understood how the symbolically laden strategic and tactical choices were critical in his case. In his case if he was able to recruit large numbers of ordinary Indians to engage in non-violent, disciplined actions, that was the way he was most likely to raise the cost of continued colonization by the British enough for them to conclude they were better off leaving.
King, by contrast, knew that because blacks were in the minority, the effort he was figuratively leading needed white support to prevail. Thus his symbolic decisions, re dress, choice of tactics, style and substance of speech, etc., were aimed at walking the treacherous line between confronting the local white power structure while at the same time winning over his "swing" local and national audiences. That started with not giving his target audiences easy ways to dismiss him (by dressing like, say, a hippie, using slang, seeming not to rule out resort to violent tactics, all automatic turnoffs if not non-starters for many white people, at least some of whom he hoped or needed to win over.) Unlike the case with Gandhi, his formal dress, style of rhetoric, etc. were not going to alienate many blacks because he was a preacher and he was dressing and speaking in ways that were culturally well-established and not only thoroughly acceptable, but widely admired and respected in black communities where he was active.
Trump wants to provoke and trigger an excessive reaction among his opponents. Depending on what reactions he can provoke, he may choose to respond with repressive measures. This dynamic occurs frequently in other countries, from whose history we might learn if we are not learning it from our own history. Any head of state can do so. In the US, it can matter a lot whether, in adopting repressive measures, the head of state has public opinion on their side. So it behooves the Trump opposition to do everything it can not to end up on the losing side of public opinion with respect to specific actions that are taken and incidents that occur.
There are Trump supporters who are suggesting that overt contempt for Trump could well re-elect Trump. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-lefts-contempt-is-going-to-r... I think they are not at all clearly wrong on that point. If the opposition leaks too much discipline and smarts, increasingly less unfavorable, or even favorable, public opinion is one thing Trump and the GOP members of Congress could end up having in their favor going forward. This could work to the GOP's advantage in the upcoming elections. Less unfavorable, favorable, or trending in his direction public opinion could reduce any inhibitions (are there any, at all? Perhaps not.) Trump may have in terms of what he will do. And even if it has no impact on Trump's actions, public opinion and trends can impact members of Congress and other Administration officials.
By the above, I reiterate that I do not mean therefore, that I hope the opposition will "do nothing." Protest activity that is coordinated, has clear objectives, uses thoughtful means, etc. can be beneficial. But, for example, devoting time to voter registration in strategic areas is likely to help, and, in contrast to some of the actions being urged now by some, has no real potential downsides in terms of the fight for public opinion going into the elections. So for those who want to "do something", it's a much less risky and more predictably productive thing to do than to go out and harass Scott Pruitt.
by AmericanDreamer on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 11:42am
Appreciate the input on my theorizing. As again, I have respect that you are well-read on this issue.
by artappraiser on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 8:57pm
The public protests will continue as will the incivility.p
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 9:34pm
I was referring to taking up guns and other weapons with an intent to inflict physical harm.
by AmericanDreamer on Tue, 07/03/2018 - 10:58am
Forgive my lack of interpretive prowess, but when, in any of your comments, did you make that clear? Yes, you said "taking up arms", but doesn't that lend itself to further interpretation than just the absolutely obvious one? I was responding to your previously highly nuanced comments on topic and am not entirely certain when the nuance changed to the literal; perhaps I should have paid more attention. But for the life of me I don't see it in your remarks - especially considering that the topic was civility and had never, at least to my view, delved into physical confrontation.
by barefooted on Tue, 07/03/2018 - 9:34pm
I'm not sure if you feel as though you received a response you were looking for on this, bf, or, if not, want one at this point.
I chose in earlier thread comments not to be explicit on intentional violence against political opponents as a form of incivility. I thought the possibility of some forms of incivility degenerating or escalating into physical violence was something that others here would be well aware of, and concerned about, without having to be explicit about that.
I think of incivility as a continuum ranging, near one end, from what to my way of thinking are really grey, borderline area kinds of actions such as those of the teacher who confronted Pruitt in the restaurant, on the one hand, where arguably what she did is not even uncivil, vs. intentional use of increasingly dangerous forms of physical violence against a political opponent, at or near the other end of an incivility continuum, on the other.
I have a concern that when there is tit-for-tat, the climate becomes even more toxic. Some may be influenced to initiate actions more towards the violent end of the spectrum. The risk of escalation of a specific incident, such that each response leads to a spiral of responses and counter-responses moving towards the violent end of the spectrum, can become greater. The likelihood of innocents being harmed increases. Some forms of resistance may be viewed as unacceptable by some otherwise open to voting the GOP out in November and beyond.
The argument that incivility is either desirable or necessary at this point to rev up the Democratic party's base, not offered by you so far as I know, does not make any sense to me whatever, given all that has transpired and the revulsion and anger so many Trump administration and GOP congressional actions have elicited.
It seemed clear enough to me that not only are there disagreements among those in this thread about the use of incivility as a tactic--where, when and how it might be thought helpful for the Trump opposition--but that there are different interpretations or understandings among participants in this thread about what they mean by "incivility". I also wrote that I don't think incivility is always unjustifiable.
I'm not asking if you agree or not--I know from what you wrote that you don't--or looking to provoke further discussion on this already much-discussed matter at this time.
by AmericanDreamer on Mon, 07/09/2018 - 4:31pm
I chose in earlier thread comments not to be explicit on intentional violence against political opponents as a form of incivility. I thought the possibility of some forms of incivility degenerating or escalating into physical violence was something that others here would be well aware of, and concerned about, without having to be explicit about that.
Sometimes it's a good idea to be explicit if you wish to later refer to the idea in an explicit manner. At least for me it's easier to keep up. ;-)
by barefooted on Mon, 07/09/2018 - 5:46pm
But but but...I didn't know I'd be referring to that idea later. My comments aren't, too frequently, lengthy enough as it is (rhetorical question)? I figure--at least once in a while, and perhaps more often than that--I should try harder to avoid commenting on, or trying to anticipate, too many points.
by AmericanDreamer on Tue, 07/10/2018 - 10:58am
Any good commenter knows that you should always anticipate your own later comments as well as those of others extending out at least 72 hours. Where ya been?
by barefooted on Tue, 07/10/2018 - 1:47pm
The article is behind a firewall I haven't paid for access to. So pardon me if my comment is off topic.
Civility, as a condition that precludes certain forms of expression, is not a guarantee that nobody gets hurt. In the traditions carried over through many centuries of aristocracies in every corner of the earth, being polite to people you plan to kill in the near future was considered a way to being recognized as a worthy opponent and a dues paying member of whatever club certified your privileges to feel really good about yourself.
Gandhi understood that dynamic intimately because he was educated in a system that held that code in highest regard. He knew it was really difficult to pick a fight with this crowd because they put everybody who did not want to join their feel good-about-themselves club beneath them and thus not worthy of recognition.
The tactics of non-violence is about picking that fight. It is no less martial than declaring you will oppose something by any means necessary.
</end of miniscule monograph>
by moat on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 5:26pm
I don't pay for it, either, I just use the private browsing function on Firefox. Though WaPo has recently decided that I'm using ad blockers (I'm not), so I sign in with my Amazon Prime account and then do the private thing.
The whole conversation about civility has gotten out of hand. What's particularly odd is that Republicans are using it to shut down the Democrats - the side that they've accused of being liberal snowflakes and unable to handle non-politically correct speech. So we've suddenly gone from being sensitive elites to smack talkers? Well, if they say so ... let's go for it.
by barefooted on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 6:16pm
There is no obligation to be civil to white supremacists. Some people are going to be offended no matter what form of protest is used. Maxine Waters called for shaming Trump officials. She received death threats. Waters was civil in her protest. The response was not. Some Progressive worry more about how people perceive the protest than the actual issue being protested
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 7:11pm
Yes, the Republicans wish to have their cake and eat it too. They talk tough when surrounded by those who agree with the coarsest of messages and then run back into their gated communities when they find themselves alone among those they denigrate. When they are troubled by reactions to people, they demand to be respected on the basis of liberal principles. They are a writhing mass of moral cowards, a perfect reflection of the leader they chose to represent themselves in the face of all challengers. The G.O.P. has already abandoned the honor they imagined courtesy and the habit of good manners bestowed upon them.
To observe this sad state of affairs does not necessarily mean an end to the utility of the use of courtesy and good manners to bring an enemy closer to the struggle. The utility should not be judged by the standards employed by those who live together and want to continue doing so without tearing each other apart. The problem, as I read Gandhi to be saying, is getting the attention of the enemy to think of you as an enemy.
So, I submit that it is not primarily a matter of all the arguments of whether "going high or low" is the best move. The question Gandhi has me asking is what will the enemy even notice. They are all wrapped up in armor behind phalanxes of incoherent accounts of their own experiences that project their inadequacies upon those they see at a distance.
Beyond reach.
by moat on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 9:34pm
We need to be close. Not just within reach, but under their noses ... the itch that's irritatingly constant and impossible to ignore. The more they scratch one spot we tickle another until they're too busy to notice we're under their skin; we're within.
If we're careful - not losing our souls, humanity and "good manners" - we can still retain the higher ground. I'm just not sure the country can depend on that.
by barefooted on Sat, 06/30/2018 - 10:01pm
If I had my druthers, moat would be in charge. In that job, moat would not be obliged to come up with ideas, only to judge their merit.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 7:31pm
Anti-fascist groups clashed with white supremacists in Oregon. I don’t see this uncivil behavior creating more white supremacists. If white supremacists are created, they were just people in hiding.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/patriot-prayer-portland-riot_us_5b383170e4b0f3c221a17a8f
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 10:46am
The question isn't whether so called uncivil behavior will create more white supremacists but whether it will effect the vote of swing voters or republicans who don't like Trump. It's only a few percentage points of republican voters but that few points could result in a significant swing to democrats in many close races. I don't know what effect incivility by democrats will have so I have mostly stayed out of this conversation. Yet I can't sit here and let your silly framing of the issue stand.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 3:25pm
Thanks for your comments. I do t think beating up white supremacists sways votes. I think Democratic leadership taking less than five seconds to condemn Maxine Waters is helpful. Republicans are not civil. Trump has supported violence against protesters and the press. Democrats have the moral high ground. My silly comment is in response to a silly debate.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 3:59pm
I don't think it's a silly debate. Whether democrats can get the small percentage of swing and republican that dislike Trump votes is one of the most important questions in the midterms. What to do or not to do can determine the outcome of many close races. Whether fighting with white supremacists will create more white supremacists is a strawman argument to avoid that real question. I haven't seem anyone here or in the news that has suggested we stop fighting with white supremacists because it will create more white supremacists. That's your MO here, create a strawman argument to avoid discussion of the real issues.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 4:12pm
Thanks again for your comments. The civility argument is another example of bothsiderism. It is easy to document incivility of Trump and Republicans. What acts by Democrats upset you?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 4:21pm
Civil or uncivil?
What the GOP says about Democrats:
1. Democrats hate the troops and disrespect the flag.
2. Nancy Pelosi's campaign staff are MS-13 gang bangers.
3. Democrats want transgenders to rape your daughter in public bathrooms.
4. Democrats want to gay marry your son.
5. Democrats want to take your guns so criminals can kill you.
6. Democrats want open borders so terrorists can cross and kill you.
7. Democrats want your children brainwashed in godless government schools.
8. Democrats won't let Trump fix the Dreamers.
9. Democrats want to raise your taxes.
10. Democrats give away your hard earned money to lazy moochers.
11. Democrats want to send your job to China.
12.
Hillary Clinton runs pedophile ring out of Comet Ping Pong Pizza.by NCD on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 5:28pm
Democrats always take charges made by Republicans seriously. The civility debate is worthy of ridicule. Maxine Waters is Auntie Maxine to millennials. Why are Schumer and Pelosi willing to alienate these young voters? They come across as being weak.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 5:45pm
Dems should at least come up with a derogatory nickname for Trump, he has one for everyone else.
"The Reality Show Guy" in the White House? Lyin Donald? The Piggy Bank Looter?
Schumer is a milquetoast, he and Pelosi saying what Waters said is "not American" was uncalled for. Trump has called Democrats traitors, and talked of killing reporters. Pence said, in effect, Bernie wants to kill your babies.
Republicans win because they lie like crazy, have loads of cash from anti-democratic oligarchs (from Kansas to Moscow), and the tax cuts for the rich looting they do is usually a slow bleed, now getting closer to hemorrhaging.
Low information incompetent white voters view aggressive GOP rhetorical attacks on Democrats as strength in turbulent times. Dems need to reciprocate. They lose because they act like doormats, they go to political knife fights with policy papers.
by NCD on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 11:45pm
The question isn't whether both sides do it or even whether one side does it more. The question is whether each act helps or hurts the democrats electoral advantage. Democrats have lost 1,000 seats to republicans in the last 8 years so surely that's a pertinent question. We've lost the house, senate, presidency, many governors and state houses. Something is going drastically wrong for democrats and if we care we should try to find answers. Tactics that work for republicans may not work for democrats so emulating them may not be the best strategy.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 7:17pm
Well said! (As in: this one's a keeper for the eternal debate about "backbone" going back to at least 2000.)
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 7:20pm
P.S. That said, I think that debate may finally be dying because: Trump and his "populist" dopplegangers worldwide are finally changing the old paradigm and those who don't see that and aren't changing their analysis with it are gonna be the real losers. This is not a Bush vs. Gore world anymore. Ask any Republican in Congress right now, a lot of them are just giving up the ghost because everything they learned to do is looking useless.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 7:25pm
So what do Democrats need to do?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 7:26pm
What incivility do Democrats need to address?
What message do they need to send to Trump supporters and Independents?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 7:25pm
As I clearly said there is only one reason I decided to weigh in on this thread.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 8:05pm
Putting civility aside, what would you say to convince Republicans to vote for Democrats?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 8:09pm
Yes, well said, ocean-kat!
Of course the Republicans are uncivil. If the response to that is, they are uncivil so we (should be? should feel free to be?) should respond in kind, that is knee-jerk, sloppy, and likely counter-productive thinking. It assumes symmetry when there is not symmetry, and that should be obvious. The potential Republican electorate at this time and the potential Democratic electorate at this time are not the same. They have, doh, different values and norms and respond to the same tactics in very different ways. What works to gain support among one side may backfire if tried on the other side. And neither does it follow that a symmetrical response in a given case will necessarily backfire.
That the Republicans are uncivil arguably relieves Democrats of an obligation, in furtherance of norms of reciprocity, to be comparably civil. But, again, as ocean-kat says, that is not the issue. It isn't whether Democrats have a right to respond in kind, in some fashion. It's whether it is more helpful than not for our aims.
As to feeling damned if we do, damned if we don't--either we are snowflakes or uncivil--well, of course there are going to be Trump and GOP supporters who are going to criticize us no matter what. They oppose us. That's what opponents do. To expect them, and maybe especially this deranged crowd, to respond in some principled way, free of blatant hypocrisy and double standards, is foolish. We know they don't do that.
This goes even for some opinion leaders on the GOP side who strive to be perceived as intellectually respectable. To pick on George Will, now calling for voting Democrats into congressional majorities, but also clearly delighted at the prospect of the appointment of a judge more right-wing than Kennedy: well, where the hell was he when McConnell was engaged in the height of incivility by blocking even a hearing on the Garland nomination? If and when I read or hear George Will tsk tsk re supposed Democratic incivility, I will try not to gag, in light of his abject failure to try to mitigate, when the need was great in 2016, the stolen SCOTUS seat accelerating the descent into the depths of hell where we now find ourselves.
Our side needs to avoid reacting or ping-ponging back and forth to whatever the inevitable criticisms are going to be. If we do, we are allowing the opposition to dictate our behavior. Rather, we need act on the basis of our own assessment of what we think will most likely advance our aims. The opposition is not there to help us try to figure that out.
by AmericanDreamer on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 12:18pm
When they go low, we go high.
We lost
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 12:26pm
I'm not sure if you are missing the point ocean-kat, among others, is trying to make, or whether you understand it and just disagree with it.
by AmericanDreamer on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 12:38pm
How many times do I have to say that I disagree
Schumer and Pelosi couldn’t wait to criticize Waters.
Maxine is a favorite of millennials, blacks and Latinos.
Schumer and Pelosi are seen as weak
Dreamers protest Schumer
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/01/25/immigrant-activists-protest-at-schumers-home-chanting-if-chuck-wont-let-us-dream-wont-let-him-sleep.html
Dreamers protest Pelosi
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/nancy-pelosi-shouted-down-immigration-activists-news-conference-n802446
When Schumer and Pelosi criticize Waters, it suggests the Democratic leadership is not willing to fight. That turns off a segment of would- be Democratic voters. You are losing more voters than you will attract with “civility”.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 12:57pm
Schumer and Pelosi give cover for the “Angry Black Woman” attack from the wingnuts.
https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/6/29/17515192/maxine-waters-sarah-sanders-red-hen-restaurant-trump
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 1:07pm
Tactics that work for republicans may not work for democrats so emulating them may not be the best strategy.
(bolding obviously mine) Are we sure?
by barefooted on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 6:46pm
They have had obvious success at pointing out and even making up tribes on the left side of the aisle.That is history.
What's new: Trump has now ramped this up considerably, stealing and then holding on to the grievance Olympics prize.
The obvious solution at this point in time is to offer up the non-tribal party.
Which will do even better after this little tariff war experiment bombs.
The self -inflicted enemy for Dems has been identity politics and tribal grievance which the GOP used against them successfully for decades. And which Trump is ironically now playing to the max with his aggrieved flyover white people's party as in: overkill.
This would require only being non-civil to all the tribals on an equal basis, which means not only white suprematists, but black suprematists and LGBT suprematists and anti-cis-mail Metoo, pro-this-and-that-persecuted religion and sub-culture, etc.
The party for Americans: one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
Civil war finally over. No more having to plaster together a jerry-rigged rainbow coalition where the tribes are really at each other's throat.
Unless you want to go parliamentary, that is.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 9:20pm
Which candidates have run non-tribal campaigns and one a majority of the white vote?
Edit to add:
The majority of white voters supported Trump. White male millennials support Trump.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/03/21/a-bright-spot-for-republicans-among-millennials-young-white-men/?utm_term=.e27f26c4dc8e
Do you consider this tribal behavior?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 9:48pm
I must have missed it where on this thread someone put forth the idea that a majority of the white vote is needed to win the presidency.
In local races it is true that a candidate partly wins by pandering to the concerns of the district. But more and more, in race after race, if the candidate does that, it doesn't seem to matter what race or gender or tribe they are.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 9:47pm
You appear to only criticize tribalism when groups other than white practice tribalism.
Edit to add:
Most other ethnic groups favor Democrats. Majorities of the other tribes support each other. If you want a non-tribal message isn’t it incumbent on white voters to become less tribal?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 9:55pm
You either have very poor reading comprehension or you are intentionally straw manning. That is the main thing I said Trump was doing, turning rural whites into a tribe.
Done trying with you, you really waste people's time with your straw man stuff, whether intentional or not. I am soooo tired of that, it is very close to trolling.
You cannot make people argue as if they were someone else just to please what you want to talk about over and over and over and over and over. Enough's enough.
The irony is: if you were in politics and you did what you do to other users on this site, you would fail massively. If you can't even win over people on this blog, why the heck would anyone listen to your prescriptions for politics?!!! I might find it amusing if it was the opinion of a movie or some such, but it is just a royal waste of time to listen to the political prescriptions of someone who can't even get along and communicate with a few other people with a similar political bent. They would be clearly the wrong prescriptions! Because politics is winning over people!
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 10:21pm
very famous book you should read
Edit to add: No one on this site is your enemy, no matter how hard you try to make them that. On the other hand, it seems impossible to have honest discussion with you, as all you seem to want to accept is dittoes and amens, or to turn others on the site into your enemy, and in that I find that you are maddeningly like the president.
by artappraiser on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 10:58pm
I’m disagreeing that lack of civility is a charge that should stick to Democrats.
Edit to add:
You mention tribes and I note most other ethnic groups behave in a collective manner.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 11:52pm
Stacey Abrams won a statewide primary in Georgia. She focuses on energizing Democrats, Independents, and those who did not vote. She did not focus on converting Republicans
Democrats are betting on anger against Trump.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/23/opinion/stacey-abrams-democrats-georgia.html
Both Oscasio-Cortez and Abrams did vigorous outreach
Stacey Abrams is clear that she does not believe in “respectability politics”
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/who-is-stacey-abrams-w520544
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 07/01/2018 - 11:44pm
This has got to be the stupidest strawman argument you've ever made here. No one is suggesting that democrats try to get republicans to vote for them in a democratic primary. rotflmfao, hey we agree, democrats shouldn't try to win democratic primaries by appealing to republicans for votes. But here's a fact. For Abrams to win in the general she's going to have to get a lot of white republican votes. There's no way she can do win on GOTV alone, not in Georgia. The last Georgia election the Republican got 52.8 of the vote and the Democrat got 44.8. She can just hope and pray that hatred of Trump alone will get her the republican votes or do something to convince them to switch. But switch they must or she will lose.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 1:02am
Now wait a minute, ocean-kat,, don't be rash. Are you absolutely 100% convinced that it won't help for liberal social media participants to call all the people in Georgia who are registered Republicans moronic mouth-breathing racist pigs?
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 12:59am
Well if it's not a competitive republican primary it's possible that in Georgia some registered Republican moronic mouth-breathing racist pigs might go to the trouble of switching their party registration to vote for the black women over the white man in the democratic primary. But I still don't think we should try to get them to vote in a democratic primary. You might be right. Calling all republicans racists and white supremacists could be the best way to convince them. As I've frequently said I really don't know the best way for democrats to get some republican votes.
If we believe rmrd, there were these white supremacists that forgot they hated black people. So they voted for Obama, twice. Then they were like, "WTF did I do? I hate n----rs. I'm voting for Trump." And since they're all white supremacists there's no way we can get any of those Obama/Trump voters back.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 1:28am
The Democrats who appealed to Republican voters in the general lost. This happened multiple times. Repeated the same behavior and expecting different results is insanity. Abrams is focusing on getting out voters who stayed at home in prior elections.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 8:47am
You argue for a non-tribal campaign. Election results indicate that majorities of other ethnic groups vote for Democrats. Other ethnic groups see a universal message. Majorities of white voters tend to vote for Republicans. By default your non-tribal campaign would be designed to attract one group, white voters. Every other group already gets the Democratic message.
You are the one who repeatedly takes this from a disagreement during an argument to a battle.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 7:28am
For decades, the powerful have been busy, 24/7, "disrupting" our economy. Our jobs, homes, incomes, pensions.
And by the powerful, I mean not just the 1%, but their lackeys in the media, in politics, in finance, in communications and the professions, and in academia.
But now - when challenged - they fall back on different ground. And claim that we're not being "civil."
Somehow, when they took away the jobs of millions, the homes of millions, the wages and pensions of tens of millions, and arrested and jailed millions more, that was just "disruption."
And thus, was apparently civil.
Alrighty then.
So we move off the turf of "civility." From here on out, we're disruptors.
Let's get busy, disrupting the shit out of them:
Womp. Womp. Womp.
by Q (not verified) on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 11:24am
Alrighty then.
by barefooted on Mon, 07/02/2018 - 6:37pm
Huckabee Sanders was on Fox & Friends this AM telling everyone that she wishes other people would be civil just like the way she teaches her children
https://www.theroot.com/sarah-huckabee-sanders-continues-her-white-tears-tour-d-1827315406
The link includes Sanders civil interactions with reporters Acosta and Ryan.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/03/2018 - 11:09am
Incivility works. A schoolteacher confronted Scott Pruitt while he was at lunch, suggesting that he resign.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/teacher-confronts-scott-pruitt-at-lunch-urges-him-to-resign
Pruitt resigned today
http://www.businessinsider.com/scott-pruitt-sent-a-bizarre-unapologetic-resignation-letter-to-trump-2018-7.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 6:02pm
I see no evidence that the confrontation had anything to do with Pruitt's resignation. If incivility is so effective why did it have no effect on Nielsen, who experienced several incidents of incivility including protests at her home, Sanders, or Miller?
by ocean-kat on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 6:23pm
Incivility did not prevent his resignation. Perhaps incivility has zero impact.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 7:21pm
Perhaps with 13 different ethics violations being investigated over the past year, there's no real conclusions we can draw from a single encounter. This is a guy who supposedly flew 1st class because he was worried about being confronted so much - presumably uncivil - and that was one of his first scandals. So no, incivility is probably irrelevant in this case, and more relevant is whether Trump felt Pruitt still an option for replacing Sessions or doing his bang-up job of ruining the environment, or if he'd passed his shelflife of being useful to the King rather than a PR disaster. Seems it was the latter, so under the bus he went.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 07/06/2018 - 5:57am
Pruitt is a coward, Nielsen has pledged her life to the Trump cause, and Pruitt was just there due to "God's providence"....and for the freebies.
Deeper look, the Priuttcake Division, and the C-5, had not returned from Ft. Bragg holiday duty when the woman approached, and with the kid on her side, Pruitt didn't feel he and the one bodyguard could win a fight. Pruitt felt it a sign from God to quit and go back to Oklahoma where there are no uppity peasants to upbraid him over his venal lifestyle.
by NCD on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 7:32pm
It seems as though Nielsen has pledged herself to Trump but before that she was known as an immigration moderate. She supported a path to citizenship for DACA recipients which opponents called amnesty and they fought against her nomination as head of Homeland Security. Most believe she only got the job because of her friendship with Kelly, hand picked by him, back in the day when Kelly had most of the power in Trump's White House. One has to wonder what's going on with her.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 7:55pm
Attributable to (?):
1. "Induced compliance", subtle pressures of conformity and comradeship within a group operating under an overriding ideology.
2. "Organizational culture sets boundaries for acceptable behaviors".
Newman, Leonard S., "The Social Psychology of the Holocaust", Oxford Press, 2002.
by NCD on Thu, 07/05/2018 - 8:35pm
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/trump-fired-scott-pruitt-without-talkin...
John Kelly, Trump’s chief of staff, was the one to call the Environmental Protection Agency chief and ask for his resignation.
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/07/05/why-scott-pruitt-resigned-epa-...
How Scott Pruitt blew it
Trump had grown tired of the torrent of negative stories about him and had come to believe they were a distraction that wouldn’t go away.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 07/06/2018 - 12:54am