The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    El Progresso en El Camino

    By Desider on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 5:16pm |

    What's the difference between a progressive and an armadillo?

    Skid marks in front of the armadillo.

    Such is the nature of our political dialogue that right and center-right are the options.

    To be lefty, liberal or progressive is to be shrill, unsatisfied, overdemanding.

    Dirty Effing Hippies.

    Time for me to hang up my spurs, back to the Hacienda.

    This one's going to be ugly, and I'd rather read a book or take a walk.

    I'll try to forget the wars, the economy, the TV talking heads.

    I'll try to forget the guys in suits behind the speakers, taking notes, taking the money.

    I'll try to forget they sound all the same.

    Once upon a time I thought my racehorse was different.

    Now I see them as much the same, palomino or sabino -

    It's just paint.

    Speaking of which, the porch needs painting.

    The chair needs sitting in.

    The sun needs watching.

    Vaya con Dios my darlings.

    This Progresso is hasta la bye bye.

    One thing I can see clearly

    Is the PRI will always win.

    It's the nature of the game.

    The House always wins.

    Comments

    I find it ironic that a few days after a blog post complained that dagblog had been taken over by "Obama bashing folks," we now have one complaining that the site is inhospitable to lefty progressives.


    by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 5:36pm

    I don't think "ironic" is the word you're looking for, G.

    The local progressive critics of Obama have been variously smeared as sexists, racists, and advocates for the enslavement of blacks. Smears that have gone notably not just unmoderated, but encouraged by one of the moderators. Not to mention the more recent headlining of the sexist smear. Way to go. 

    Meanwhile the worst said critics have thrown back was (i) complaints about the treatment they have been subjected to, and (ii) poo(h). The former response got duly slapped down as 'meta' and the latter got censored.

    I've been trying to keep things civil on-thread, but my last missive on these worries to afore-mentioned moderators went unanswered and apparently had no effect on moderation policy.

    So on the moderation round these parts, i call #fail.

    think I'm going back on vacation.

    see y'all


    by Cho on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 5:57pm

    I think the key is, we are not moderating ourselves, when we could stand to do that when attempting to exchange ideas with one another. When we don't things go south and quickly. I mean, I think it is the only way to make some headway into solving our differences.


    by tmccarthy0 on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 6:00pm

    I'm from the south - but we go there slowly.

    I think you presume your idea of moderating ourselves as a good idea. "It is the only way" is typically a disprovable axiom.

    I personally like "discuss more options, think out of the box, brainstorm, play devil's advocate, consider dismissed alternatives", etc.

    Even the obsession with the GOP sometimes strikes me as self-destructive - we're giving them power over ourselves rather than building our own plan, our own goals.

    Hunkered down quiet for sheer survival comes across as pathetic to me. "Never give a inch" seems a better motto than "don't make too many waves, mind your p's and q's". But I'm at least willing to admit there are places where those strategies work better.

     


    by Desider on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 6:13pm

    Moderation does not mean, not saying the things you want to say, it can mean, not treating the other person as though they are the enemy and as undeserving of a basic amount of respect. It is the only way to come to agreements and get some things done. The way the government is working or is not working, is a reflection of who we are as a people, those hard walls are not formed in a vacuum.


    by tmccarthy0 on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 6:25pm

    Sadly, we have to occasionally dumb down our definition of "basic amount of respect".

    Whether I say a naughty word on a blog is hardly a big influence on government or "who we are as a people" as Goldman Sachs getting $50 billion of government paper to prop up its thieving or a Koch Brothers donation to trash Medicare.

    Obama came to town saying he was going to get everyone to be real nice to each other. Need reminders how that one went?


    by Desider on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 6:35pm

    If you find ideas that I propose to be crap, you are free to say so. When I suggest that some that your ideas  are crap, you take great offense.

    If you enter with a statement about what you would do if you were Black, how do you not expect some push back? You are taking the position that you know what is best for the Blacks. Am I just supposed to let your statement slide, because you feel that you are being called a racist? In a recent post, I took pains to specifcally state that I was not calling you a racist. I said we had a different worldview. What else do you need?

    I have pointed out that in the rough and tumble days of the campaign between Obama and Clinton, there were a lot of hot and heavy charges about race. Hillary is now in Obama's cabinet.

    To me, if someone has to use profanity, that means that they cannot use standard English to get their ideas across. That is my point of view. It has never stopped you from expressing yourself in the manner you feel appropriate.

    I have never sent the administrators of dagblog anything that stated that you should be removed from the site. You don't feel the need to temper your words. We have clear cut differences about many things. You refer to people as confused or stupid without hesitation. When you face criticism, somehow, it is too harsh in your opinion. I simply do not understand.

     

     


    by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 10:08pm

    "If you enter with a statement about what you would do if you were Black, how do you not expect some push back? You are taking the position that you know what is best for the Blacks."

    You're psychotic. You have no problem saying what all progressives should do, what all whites should do, but your little closed world as a black is off limits to anyone else's imagination.

    I never said "what is best for the Blacks". I simply said if I were Black I'd be happy to have a first Black president over any other policy issue. Not that every Black should feel that way. What a stretch on my part.

    And if you have a problem with profanity, I suggest you talk to your BFF Brew first - you guys seem bound at the hip:

    Do you have any evidence that I'm wrong, asshole?  Or are lame-ass attempts at snark all the substance you can bring to the debate?

    Me, I've got to get back to my "plantation".


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 12:40am

    I give you my opinion. You seem entirely capable of rejecting my opinion and hurling insults. You seem to object to people who don't agree with you.

    After saying how you would feel if you were Black, you ended with......In summary, I'd say focus on Obama is a big distraction for the black community, even though I don't think his policies have helped it at all. Focus on building up a 20-year presence at all levels of government, and then maybe black-friendly policies will make it to the top of the Democrats' real agenda once in office.

    You began with if you were Black, then continued with a litany of criticisms and ended with the above conclusion. Your advice to the Black community.

    You are at the ready with insults, but the world's biggest whiny-baby when your feelings are hurt. It's crap. People are confused, stupid, psychotic,, but please don't say anything bad about poor Desider.

    Often you and your buddies gang up on people you desagree with. Some also resort to profanity in response to what you have said.. Then you complain. Read the insults you throw out. You give out insults, you receive insults. Then you whine.

    Crocodile tears. I'm no longer falling for your "hurt" feelings.


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 12:46am

    Gee, "build up a grassroots organization rather than rely on a single black messiah as president" - I'm so bad to give blacks such domineering extreme advice.

    Was thinking you guys must have blown a gasket (sorry, Gasket) when that old white Jew Spielberg made a movie about a young black female lesbian. How could he understand the black experience? The female experience? The lesbian experience? The horror, the horror.

    And no, I didn't get "hurt" by you ever except for your (or your buddy's) "if you had your way you would have been putting MLK under the whip down on the plantation" gibe. Yeah, that was rather extreme and painful. Other than that, don't flatter yourself.


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 12:56am

    You cry because ONE person has objected to your use of profanity. What a baby.

    You cry because some people are not falling into line on how used and abused the South has been. You dismissed any major role played by Blacks during the Civil War and then wonder why your defense of the poor old South is falling flat in some quarters.

    You are a joke.


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 7:23am

    Given your vigorous support for the South, would you like, Shelby Foote, have fought on the side of the Confederacy? Obviously, Foote did not fight for the South, but stated that he would have done so.

    Do you consider the above quuestion a personal attack?


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 7:31am

    I consider you an ass. I don't know who the fuck Shelby Foote is and don't feel inclined to Google. If the fight was to save someone as obnoxious and clueless as you, I'm sure I wouldn't have lifted a finger whatever the side. Any other questions?


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 7:35am

    Typical Desider dodge, take me out of the equation, would you have fought for the South?

     


    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 8:18am

    From a 2011 point-of-view or 1861?

    The right to secede and freely organize as they see fit? Maybe, likely

    The "right" to own slaves? No

    If you were a Roman emperor, would you have abolished slavery or organized games with the lions in the Coliseum?

    If you were President of Russia, would you support the right of Chechnyans to secede or crush their rebellion mercilessly?

    If you were King George III would you have promoted slavery in the colonies, crushed the colonist rebellion, or stepped down to be replaced by someone who fit the times in 1775?


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 8:43am

    Give it a rest, guys.  You're both better than this.


    by Ramona on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 8:45am

    "Solving our differences."

    I've read quietly from the sidelines the past few days, with increasing sadness, but somehow this phrase -- seemingly so innocuous and positive -- pushes me past anger. Let me be clear, I'm not angry; just even sadder than I was yesterday

    Our differences are something that needs to be "solved?" Not aired? Not celebrated? Not explored?

    Why? So we can all move forward toward an unspecified common goal? I never thought was a worthwhile purpose for any group blog, much less this one. Maybe I'm wrong.

     


    by acanuck on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 8:19pm

    Yes, I agree. 

    It's obviously going to get even more heated as we move into 2012.  No one should expect political forums to feel especially "hospitable".  They're not support groups.

    And running away with a speech is melodramatic.


    by Dan Kervick on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 8:37pm

    I don't want to speak for tm but I think she might have meant "resolving our differences".  Which would be closer to "exploring our differences".  No, we'll never be a support group here, and that's a good thing.  But if you come here often enough you've joined a community.  That's what we do when we choose a particular forum and get to know the other people participating.  We become a community.

    That's not to say we're all going to agree on everything.  How boring would that be?  It's a healthier, more effective community when it's made up of individuals who feel free to speak up, speak out and then defend their opinions.  But when it gets toxic (as it almost always does), when familiarity breeds contempt (as it always always does), there is the need to, yes, clear the air.  Because we're a community.

    I understand your sadness.  I feel it too.  But there are loads of smart, talented, funny, wonderful, awesome people here in this community and I'm sticking around because I want to watch them in action, study them and learn from them.  (And no, I'm not naming names.  That just wouldn't be right.)

    I personally wouldn't want anyone to leave, but we each have our own needs and goals and if this isn't a good fit, I understand that, too.  It's never going to be a one-size-fits=all.

     


    by Ramona on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 9:23pm

    And a comment from Ian Walsh that fits in with Cho's earlier economic vs. social progressive framing (and a reminder that progressives are often busier beating each other up to try to get serious about serious stuff):

    This, by the way, is another example of the shiny and how “progressives” get distracted by it. The corporate financial interests, aka. the people who are destroying your standard of living and denying you universal health care, are cool with gay marriage and other socially progressive issues. They don’t care whether you’re black, red, white, brown, pink with purple polka dots, or married to a man, woman, or someone in between, all they care is that you’re a debt slave or wage slave, squished firmly under their feet. Cuomo firmly follows the policies of that class of people, he has nothing against gays, he has everything against making bankers and rich people pay for destroying the economy and intends to force the poor and middle class to pay the entire freight.

    Worth contemplating Ian's concept of hardball.


    by Desider on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 6:56pm

    Wow. Welsh is obviously the only person who has read my comments over the past couple of months. nice to know someone was paying attention...

    ;0)

    thanks. and have a good summer.


    by Cho on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 7:22pm

    Divide and conquer, 

     


    by Resistance on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 8:16pm

    Cho, I have never received any missives from you. I assure you that we respond to every message we receive from readers.

    Quinn contacted me about racist accusations some time back; we deleted the offensive comment he referred to and commented that it was inappropriate. The sexism "smear" you refer to did not accuse any bloggers here. When one comment in the thread did so, I deleted the accusation.

    I appreciate your efforts to keep things civil. Further thoughts on my comment to quinn. Have a great vacation.


    by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 10:23pm

    Long before, pretty much from the begninning. Hell, this is Billy Glad pre-history: Obama as personality to support vs. actual policy, vs. a real cross-regional, cross-the-board Democratic Party.

    But no, there are a number of Obama skeptics, 5 come to mind immediately, probably should know more, 2 others come to mind as well....

    Just getting bored, lather, wash, rinse, repeat.

    Just don't see anything heading towards campaign ideas, towards a message, towards enthusiasm. As I noted before, we lost big on the "we suck less than they do" message in 2010, and we're going to run it again in 2012. The "promiste to take Glenn Greenwald a peg or two" was depressing as well. In the age of stripping Bradley Manning, massive illegal mortgage shutdowns, secret unapproved wars, gigantic finance frauds.... we're going to attack a progressive blogger for not being right all the time... presumably. Or for not being the right skin color. Or for not belonging to the right organization. Or for some other transgression.

    Even the joking isn't much fun - not much banter, can email 3 people to same effect.

    Time for a new hobby.


    by Desider on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 5:58pm

    I can understand your boredom, it’s as though it’s a waste of time.

    I'm glad I stuck around though, or I would have missed this point by KGB  

    One of the best reasons I’ve read, why Obama should be removed.  

    http://dagblog.com/reader-blogs/it-s-seven-o-clock-newssilent-night-again-10765#comment-125375

    Including this response

    "Personally, I neither look forward to an Obama defeat nor do I fear it. I just know I won't vote for him again. Trying to put the observed behavior of others into a framework that accounts for all observations is simply an intriguing passtime. One vote can't change the world. If your president is doing what the American people want, they should re-elect him quite handily. Expressions of dissatisfaction or analysis predicting bad electoral (and societal) outcomes from the Democratic party's current course of action shouldn't be able to impact that at all".......But honestly, I'm not butthurt. Y'all do whatever the hell you want with your party. This was the first time I ever trusted a party in the first place. In my view is just another partnership that isn't working out and needs to be terminated - like a shoddy vendor or a business where a key member is unable to execute. I'm not getting what I want and need from the relationship, so I'm moving on. Hopefully a changed dynamic will allow new relationships to develop that have a better chance of working toward goals I agree with using methods I can support. Perhaps the way I make decisions will never find success for me, but I am reasonably certain that a lack of success is all but guaranteed if I refuse to stop doing things that clearly aren't working.

    If I were advising Democrats as a business, my advice would be to try and give the voters you need to win the election what they expected. Which you say was "change in Washington".

    by kgb999 6/21/2011 - 8:39 pm

     “The Game never ends, when your whole world depends on a turn of a friendly card

    http://dagblog.com/politics/what-if-obama-loses-10892#comment-126357

    Nothing ventured ….Nothing gained ……..unless you like being played.

    We need to quit fearing the Republicans, we need both parties to fear us.

    "Oh lordy, if Obama doesn't win, them big bad republicans will take over"

    "We have nothing to fear, but fear itself"  

    The Tea Party knows this and doesn’t care who knows it. It seems all the excitement is with the Tea Party.


    by Resistance on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 8:06pm

    Agree with KGB's statement a lot - long, detailed, really goes through the reasoning and the disappointment. Recommend everyone read.

    (Despite not being an Obama fan, I remember New Year's Eve going into 2009 with a lot of hope and prayer that something good was going to happen, listening to the fireworks and feeling satisfied. January/February changed much of that quickly with the way the stiimulus went, the posturing to Republicans, et al)

    Just find we keep rehashing the same tribe arguments again and again. "Need to vote". "No I don't". "Yes you do" "No I don't" "GOP will get you" "Looks like they already did..."


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 12:36am

    Repetition is not so bad. 

    Newer insights and reflections upon events, will help those in doubt, to be able to make a Good decision

    Why do I believe? My hope is on an assured expectation. Faith   

    As the election nears the opponents will try to keep us blind, to tire us out.

    Obama is not going to get a free ride, he only gets that if we quit or tire out.

    Take a break, but dont linger, you might find you have grown lazy and you wont be up for the fight.   


    by Resistance on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 12:52am

    No one here is organizing, doing anything useful from what I can tell - it's a battle of couch potatoes, including myself. At least with OpenLeft or FDL I knew many were fundraising, organizing, taking on causes, hitting the streets.

    In a way, it's a recipe for laziness.


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 12:59am

    I can see your point.

    Just today, I was talking to a group and it dawned on me, that blogging may have a detrimental effect on our generation. .

    We are  constantly beating on the gates, in order to let off steam, and when we tire of beating on the door, we find we are too tired to storm the Bastille.

    Then when we see another violation of our trust, we run to the gate, beating our fists and screaming, we eventually tire and we go home to our couches.

    We sure told them, didn't we.   


    by Resistance on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 1:16am

    Ayup, they're shaking in their boots.


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 1:38am

    Just a niggling note "progreso" is spelled with one "S" not two.


    by David Seaton on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 4:59am

    Depends on the language, as well as the allusion to "progressive". Obviously the food label above that inspired the post has 2 s's.


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 6:46am

    ..


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 6:55am

    Once a lefty liberal hippy, always one. You'll be back. But I like the way you say adios. It' a harsh world out there. Sometimes hunkering down at home is the best kind of R&R. It's temporary because we know we can't stop. Not now. (I see us like Roadrunner. Wily Coyote never stops trying to do us in but there we are, up and running.)

    by Ramona on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 5:48pm

    I hate the Roadrunner. Who in their right mind didn't want Wily to catch him? ;-)


    by Desider on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 6:46pm

    Okay...I love the roadrunner.  Always happy to see Wily heading over a cliff.  But I wish you a great R&R anyway.  Cool


    by Ramona on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 7:04pm

    Surely you knew about this, Desider. If not, enjoy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xItDDGL12jg


    by acanuck on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 7:54pm

    I laughed, I cried...


    by Ramona on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 11:06pm

    Fricking hilarious. I'm set. Have you read this book? It changed my life.


    by Desider on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 12:44am

    Roadrunner is a her, not a him.


    by Rootman on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 7:47am

    Adios, Decider.  Peeking in during the day while I was working on a piece on Libya wasn't all that inspirational. 

    Kinda made me think of not posting it here, maybe the unmentionable other place and my Posterous.  A bit of vacation sounds good; lots of gardening to do, and a Republic to try to save.  Sometimes that means getting a little excitable trying to get other folks...excited about it, too.  Yeah, the way I mean not be the way Y'all mean; but then I ain't here to argue your points for you.  ;o)

    Vaya con Dios for now, anyway.  Thanks for the opportunities to share.

    A last funny by Terry Broder:

                                  


    by we are stardust on Mon, 06/27/2011 - 7:14pm

    "...lots of gardening to do, and a Republic to try to save."

    Quoted without comment.


    by brewmn on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 12:34am

    LOL!  A comment might have been instuctive.  Never any sense of irony, eh, or able to see that this followed in the vein of the OP?  As in:

    "Once upon a time I thought my racehorse was different.

    Now I see them as much the same, palomino or sabino -

    It's just paint.

    Speaking of which, the porch needs painting.

    The chair needs sitting in.

    The sun needs watching"

    See now?  The use of contrasts that become a little self-deprecating?  Nah.  (Oopsie; deleted the rest.  Breaking my own rule again.)  Always a pleasure, brew.


    by we are stardust on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 7:28am

    This is from an earlier exchange at destor23's post on If Obama Loses

    Oh, and if Obama loses, Cornel West is even more toast than he already is in the Black community

    by rmrd0000 6/27/2011 - 4:54 pm (re: rmrd0000)  

    And I'm sure Cornel West would cry himself to sleep. To members of human race, he'll be as respected as he ever was. I imagine he's better off.

    by kgb999 6/27/2011 - 7:09 pm (re: rmrd0000)  

    So you are defining the Black community as not members of the human race? Just askin'.

    by rmrd0000 6/27/2011 - 9:10 pm (re: kgb999)

    Did kgb imply that African-Americans were sub-human?

    Did I just call kgb a racist?

    by rmrd0000 on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 9:15am

    No lectures.  But I am locking this thread.  It's veered a bit far from the tone we want to set here and could be off-putting to new members, including Kate Moss, who I've been actively recruiting despite a restraining order.


    by Michael Maiello on Tue, 06/28/2011 - 9:16am