The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    Black Like We

    Chapelle's full monologue

    The one thing that hit me, with all the Kahnemann and Malcolm Gladwell I read this year, and other personal stuff going on, is all these people walking around, these bodies, me, are still 9/10 chemistry and raw emotions and psychological traumas and a bit of intelligent consideration, maybe a tiny bit of enlightened thinking thrown in, and perhaps humor or orneriness to scramble it up. I look at the Rayshard killing, and for 40 mins things were ok, and then in 15 seconds it went to shit. Most of these "Karens" videos (*not* the woman walking her dog in Central Park) are likely women running around doing thankless work, and someone with a phone catches them in their worst frustrating moments, situations that maybe they didn't understand or were too flustered to control, or had more of an explanation than we see. I have my moments, but no one so far has a camera in my face to record it for all time, all humanity. "Humanity" - we use that word to sound noble, but it's just one batch of troubles after another.

    Though actually things aren't that bad. Aside from Covid, the Trump years have just been about pissing us off every minute of the day. But there were no gas ovens. There was no drawn out Iran-Iraq War killing millions (though Xinjiang is bad). There were no famines in Ethiopia with wasting away babies (though pictures of cages from the border are bad). Gladwell talked about how people in London during the Blitz became immune to fear and troubles and danger. And under Trump, we became rather immune to good news. That cop putting his knee on George Floyd's neck, strangling him, and pretty much the entire world thought that was evil, even our usual racists. And even *that* was more or less criminal negligence, vicious uncaring mistreatment, sure, but not the ending that cop expected, was trying for. Those girls in that Birmingham church when I was a kid - those guys were *trying* to kill them. Those activists disappeared in Mississippi - those guys actively killed them. And the whole community largely approved, covered it up, denied these poor murdered souls justice.

    We've come a long way. Chapelle is playing a pose here, trying to push people - whites - out of their comfort zone (and coming to grips with conflicted feelings on a weird day). But I know he doesn't think blacks shooting blacks in Chicago is any better. But still we're talking about Floyd, talking about black shootings, talking about police, but also small businesses, with the idea that we can do better, that it's not a lost cause. I voted for Reagan over Carter 40 years ago, and would do it again, for the simple reason Carter felt like he'd given up, that we couldn't fight back against the Soviets, the Ayatollah, the energy situation, all these seemingly insurmountable problems, yet 40 years later we got through all these and have new ones to face and shrug off. Maybe that's why people voted Trump, some little spark of connection that overrode Carter's good soul, his Habitat for Humanity, his better angels. Or maybe it was just a normal patch of bad road, and we got through it and it doesn't have more significance than that. We'll just have our ups and downs - don't read too much into it. And thank your lucky stars you ain't black ;-)

    One thing Van Jones noted last night was that Trump actually got on the phone with some black leaders to discuss what could be done. Insincere, for sure, but it wasn't watered down with "all races should have equal opportunity" or some such. The Black situation is different from Asians, Hispanics, Natives, whoever, and we know it. I understand why Obama was reluctant to display "favoritism", but this particular pipe has a leak, and talking about replacing all the plumbing just slows us down.

    With Covid, we look at points of transmission, effective & ineffective treatment, which classes of people are most vulnerable, most endangered. Sure, lifestyle choices make a difference, but still, we see what we can do to save and protect who we can, approach it both humanely and scientifically. 4 years ago "I can't breath" was less important than a football game or a pledge of allegiance to a flag. In 2020, by accident or good work or just getting more comfortable with a foreign idea, we're more accepting that *something* needs to be done. It's progress. It's hard to expect too much more from a plodding, sometimes well-intentioned, but often dim-witted humanity. It seems we're evolving, which is more important than a particular election, however relieved we feel.


    “I can’t even tell something true unless it has a punchline behind it. You guys aren’t ready." 

    For me this is the thing. I don't think he's telling us something true. He doesn't just tell jokes, he acts like he has some insight into the issues of our time and has a humorous take on it. But I don't think he does. He avoids the real issue. He dances around it and I think he does to say something controversial for the publicity. But in the end he's not honest and if you're going to play that type of comedy game you have to have insight and you have to be honest.  It was much more apparent in his last much more controversial netflix special. I tossed out a short blog on it, but I think I failed to explain my ideas well. It's tough to write a blog on a video that others may not have seen without a transcript. I just don't think he's hitting the mark he's aiming at.

    I get your point. I think Chapelle has some insight, but this isn't a Master Class - he seems unsure of himself, some of the jokes were hackneyed, some not really jokes... But 4 years ago he made the point of white liberal people suddenly deciding things were terrible, which for a black person was a surprise/questionable. Now many've decided things are wonderful again, which again might seem hyperbolic for many blacks. I didn't recall things so great during the Obama years. I don't think getting rid of Trump in January gets rid of our Covid problem et al anytime soon. And racism sure could use some kind of fresh approach.

    I just think one should not underestimate the ability of the SNL brand to affect our culture. Yes, even after all these years, it seems to me to have a lot of power. It had viral power before there was "viral" and it still has viral power.It's not a question of Chappelle's talent or lack of it, but that they chose him knowing the type of act he was famous for, and then the reaction to what he said as effects filter down through the culture.

    It's not a question of Chappelle's talent or lack of it, but that they chose him knowing the type of act he was famous for, and then the reaction to what he said as effects filter down through the culture.

    So you have described a medium with a great deal of power to effect the way people think. You point out a situation in which the wielders of that power pick the message they want believed by picking the messenger.  Thanks for that example of  how propaganda works. 

    geez I'm sorry that's absurd, you're like calling everything on any media "propaganda". No it's called ratings, large numbers of people liking a thing or not. Free speech, choice of media, they can turn the channel. Populism, yes. Not propaganda.

    Yes, As much as I don't really like him Chappelle is popular.

    I'm not underestimating the ability of SNL or Chappelle to affect culture. But I can't say much about that reaction from other people's eyes. I can only discuss my reaction and compare him to other comedians who do that type of political social commentary/comedy like Carlin to reach into the past or Hannah Gadsby the newest face in the genre.

    It seemed to me Chappelle was a bit of the turd in the punchbowl, the kind of Debbie Downer reality check to what the whites & possibly many blacks are feeling. A bit of the "blacks keep whites honest - & stop them from dancing bad" is a bit pretentious, a bit retread dumb. But still, I appreciated that somehow as food for thought - I'm worn out after Trump, and Covid's still raging, so I'm not quite in the dancing on cars mood. That doesn't mean I wholeheartedly agree with Chappelle either - though I do also think some of these things like "Kung Flu" are overblown - the whole "you have to be an X to say something about X" seems sad, so limited. I mean, I'm happy if a non-leper gives me a new leprosy joke, or someone who doesn't suffer from an intestinal disorder gives me some new material for dyspepsia. It's like manna from heaven - I don't look to see who sent it. I just edit & repeat. Though gum disease and the shingles would be a bit personal. Prolly Chappelle does the same.

    On my point about the SNL brand's ability to influence culture, I see that lots of people watched the show-link to ratings report. I know Chappelle's hosting was well advertised in advance. (Interesting side point reading the whole article: these ratings comparisons suggest the apolitical Eddie Murphy is slightly more popular than Chappelle as Murphy had no big political event to create more draw?) Also note the popularity after views of the Chappelle monologue on YouTube, probably a bigger indicator of his message resounding as people share the link or embed it:

    [....] This is the highest SNL 18-49 rating in three-and-a-half years, since May 13, 2017 (with host Melissa McCarthy & musical guest Haim, 2.74) and the highest most watched SNL telecast since then, behind the  Dec. 21, 2019 show hosted by Eddie Murphy with musical guest Lizzo (9.981 million).

    Vs. the comparable 2016 post-election SNL (8.691 million, 3.15 18-49 rating), also hosted by Chappelle, this year’s show was +4% in total viewers and off a bit in 18-49.

    The 2.62 rating in 18-49 doubles SNL’s November average from last season (2.62 vs. 1.28, +105%). In total viewers, the increase is +3.031 million viewers or +50% (9.064 million vs. 6.033 million).

    With 1.1 million Total Interactions, the Nov. 7 Saturday Night Live ranks as the season’s #1 most-social SNL airing and #1 most-social late-night airing of the week.

    Among all programs on YouTube over the weekend, SNL generated the #1, #2 and #3 most-viewed videos, with Biden’s Victory Cold Open (10.0 million views), Chappelle’s Stand-Up Monologue (7.4 million) and Weekend Update: Rudy Giuliani on Trump’s Election Lawsuits (4.2 million).[....]

    Kinda like dancing on cars - people are primed to react, whatever the content.
    Though I'm not sure about "influencing" so much as being the daily bread of a certain demographic.
    Will anyone unpersuaded be persuaded by the program? If so, all those "won't hold my nose for Hillary" would have voted for Hillary, and presumably some non-liberals would watch SNL and be won over. I rather doubt it.

    In the past, over the decades I've watched and followed politics at the same time, I think they actually have hurt candidates politically with ridicule. Unless the targeted candidate is smart enough to show up in person and show they can self-deprecate, which counteracts that result.

    Except the right handicaps those smartass lib programs.

    I keep dropping by RealClearPolitics, and no matter how bad things get, they always have a blame the libs response. How that works in raleal Murika, dunno.

    RCP still has Biden at about 259 at the top of their page.

    taking your "things are not so bad" point further-and I think this also addresses part of Chappelle's point too-no Poor Boys bogeymen civil war looting, shooting rioting and raping libs showing up as of yet, just sad press conferences at landscaping cos. and all-hat-no-cattle from rightwing congresspersons:

    Look, at least millions of American storeowners can go to bed tonight without having to worry about an outbreak of violence and looting from the defeated candidate's supporters. That's a good thing, and one nobody will talk much about. The boarding up of Washington DC can stop.

    — John McGuirk (@john_mcguirk) November 7, 2020

    granted,.I may be speaking too soon. But I also suspect that if it happens soon, Joe would try to ameliorate somehow as he has declared victory. After all, he'd have to deal with it down the road anyways, might as well start now.

    Partly FDR's "fear fear itself" admonition is operable here? Unless true anarchist believers, "they" are just angry people. How they act out depends upon whether others' fear gives them power to act out.? Scare yourself silly about "the other" and they just might get the idea to take advantage of that.

    More fear of the bogeyman thing. I think she's right:

    This is pretty much the opposite of "incredibly dangerous"

    — Alice (@AliceFromQueens) November 9, 2020

    We had screaming angry right wing talk radio in this country since the 80's.  Only major violent result of  all the"Turner Diaries" nut cases was the counter-reaction of Tim McVeigh to Federal crackdowns on like Ruby Ridge & Waco? Am I right, am I missing something?

    We'll just forget about the plot to kidnap a Governor or the shooting death of a California sheriff's deputy by a Boogaloo member. Just off the top of my head.

    Move along, nothing to see.

    your problem is in the news bubble that you make for yourself of exclusively black grievances, you don't look at anything by Trump supporters. I do, they are as illogically frightened as you are and cherry pick fear mongering stories the same way you do. They never see it from the other side, just like you, and they are afraid, like you. Just ran across some here:

    You do the exact opposite of what the whole Chapelle monologue is about, looking at things as if in the other guy's shoes and hopefully seeing why you are frightened of each other.


    You do realize that Chappelle was doing jokes?

    At the end of the monologue, he said that whites had to rid themselves of the hatred.

    What steps do you encourage whites take to accomplish ending their hate?

    Yoy do a lot of projection from your bubble

    I give my opinion

    I have not put extra locks on the doors, purchased a weapon, guard dog, etc.

    McConnell says that he will block Biden.

    Few Republican members of Congress offered congratulations to Biden.

    The person in control of funding the transition team will not release funds.

    You have much to say about the Woke

    What is your message to Trump and the GOP?

    Chappelle's bit was trying to do similar to this?


    — Josh Kraushaar (@HotlineJosh) November 8, 2020

    Trump mixed culture wars with politics, or to be more precise he basically substitutes culture wars for politics, the politics are just thrown in once in a while as an afterthought. 

    And everyone is dragged along with this culture wars troll's framing just because he happens to be president and head of one of the political parties.

    And when you do culture wars, the war is on the other's humanity.

    The kicker: he was doing it for narcissistic goals only! No other reason.

    P.S. This is also apropos to our convo. on another thread. There are two types of people left on this here website, ones who desperately want to fight culture wars and ones who are looking for help decoding them. Is like mixing oil and water.

    At the end of the monologue, Chappelle talked about whites dealing with their hate

    When does that happen?

    here's just two more people sharing thoughts on it (since we definitely could use more of a mix!):

    We have to keep in mind that Chappelle told us to give Trump a chance when Trump was elected. Chappelle had to apologize 

    Days after Donald Trump was elected president, Dave Chappelle made his much-anticipated appearance hosting Saturday Night LiveOver 8 million people watched as Chappelle spent over 11 minutes on his monologue, commenting on everything from Harambe to Black Lives Matter, but it was his parting thoughts on Donald Trump that surprised viewers the most. After describing the hope he felt on a recent visit to the White House alongside other black, "historically disenfranchised" artists, he told the audience, “I’m wishing Donald Trump luck. And I’m going to give him a chance, and we, the historically disenfranchised, demand that he give us one too. Thank you very much.”

    Six months later, Chappelle is taking it back. During his set at the Robin Hood Gala in New York on Monday, he offered up an apology for those choice words during his monologue, according to NBC’s Willie Geist, who was in the audience. “I was the first guy on TV to say ‘Give Trump a chance,’” he told the crowd. “I f—ed up. Sorry.”

    I remember when Hillary lost, the message from Trump supporters was "F Your Feelings"

    I hope Biden can reach across the aisle

    I am not optimistic

    Look for Executive Orders

    Oh God, the only reason a comedian should ever apologize is showing his dick unasked to a colleague. Depending on how it goes over. Other than that, it's no holds barred. People dont like your act, they boo and walk out. Comedians best work is their edgiest. Sarah Silverman's best joke mixes semitic tropes with totally un-#MeToo values. The best joke I know I'm unable to tell pretty much anywhere for its ethnic shamefulness (no, it's not Southern - much more globalized), and the 2 or 3 competing ones have gotten me labeled in a few circles as a suspicious type. But the jokes are still funny. And horridly offensive. And even if they pull a fireside chat with a "let's get serious" heart-to-heart, it's still a performance. They're out to stir us up - make us laugh or cry or shock us or somehow be worth the $20 or $50 or however much it costs to see these acts. The worse thing that can happen is you go home unphased. Groucho Marx's anecdote about the guy in the Depression he told about their show. "Man, I only got a nickel left. But is it kicking?" Being a stand-up comedian is a real shit job - alone on stage, filling lots of silence, knowing you can't survive on baseball numbers, 3 out of 10 being great - you better hit 8 out of 10 or they'll boo and insult you off and you might never come back. I mean, Chappelle is far past that for now - he'll pretty well survive just by raising his eyebrows. But that's only after 10 or more years of work. Anyway, I liked things better in the punk era when *everything* was on the table. Did Lidya Lunch's career get ruined for throwing a used tampon at the Clash? hardly. That's entertainment. The Aristocrats.

    Chappelle, the guy who made the statement, apologized. He knew that he made a mistake.

    Most people want a peaceful transition

    The person in charge of releasing the funds for transition refuses to do so

    Few Republican officials have congratulated Biden on his election

    McConnell says that he will obstruct Biden

    We have crazy wingnut ministers telling their congregations that Biden is not President-elect

    What do Trump and the Republicans have to do to reassure the rest of us?

    After F Your Feelings, what is their responsibility to Biden supporters?

    Who is this robot droning at me?

    Do you speak English?

    Or just Listese?

    Which phrase book do you use?

    Yo tengo hambre.

    Banyo istiyorum.

    Comedians are apologizing because their target audience is essentially booing and walking out. The apology is their attempt to stop that. I don't really follow stand up comedians though I watch a medium amount of their work. What ever comedian gets a deal with the streaming service I'm subscribed to at the moment. I remember the names of those I think are great and forget the names of most of the rest. So I can't really name names and make comparisons. But there are still comedians doing similar schticks to Andrew Dice Clay. I watched at least some of their work though sometimes I just turn them off half way through their set. They're doing fine with their target audience and only get in trouble when they try to expand beyond it. They don't have to apologize. They can say fuck em if they can't take a joke. They can settle for the smaller market that likes their type of humor. They apologize to stop the bleeding and change their routine if they can to appeal to the larger market. Or to hold onto a market that has different standards that have changed over time. 

    To attempt to expand on this. Many years ago I went to see Michael Moschen perform his contact juggling show. He did several sets and between each one a clown came out and did a traditional slapstick routine. It wasn't offensive and it didn't bother me but I didn't find it funny. I'm a people watcher. I don't really understand why people do the things they do and I'm often trying to figure it out. As I was bored by what was happening on stage with the clown I looked around at the people. Almost no one was laughing at the clown. Except for this 13 year old girl sitting near me. She could not stop laughing. I tried to understand why.

    The clown with his over sized shoes had trouble walking and tripped. He tried to drink water and it spilled. When he tried to eat  the food got all over his face. Walked into a wall. Banged his shins on a low table. Typical clown routine that this child could not stop laughing at but no adult laughed at. I guessed that this was funny because this was the exaggerated life of the child. It touched her world. She remembered the struggles to walk, to eat, to drink. She was laughing at that pain, at her struggles.

    This is all old for the adult, they barely remember it if at all. It doesn't touch their life anymore. This type of humor no longer connects. They're looking for something more sophisticated. Jokes about religion, death, politics, cultural conflicts or absurdities, SEX. 

    We can extrapolate this differing level of sophistication between child and adult to adults with very different levels of education and thought patterns.What appeals to college students and higher is not likely to appeal to poor uneducated whites or blacks.  And vice versa. As we get more and more educated there is a greater demand for more sophisticated more thoughtful humor. And a rejection of humor that is more basic, shocking, or offensive. 

    Or per Heinlein's "we laugh because it hurts", for the adults dying hurts more than childhood, or these encounters, decades of weakness..  that's what's painful, that's what they fear. The kid's still in training shoes, hasn't even glimpsed death, barely knows embarrassment or ridicule or failure. Just clumsiness.

    nicely told anecdote and analysis, oceankat, I enjoyed reading it.

    Re: . Aside from Covid, the Trump years have just been about pissing us off every minute of the day. But there were no gas ovens

    Just ICYMI, on Twitter it's a theme for specialist types that calling Trumpism equivalent to fascism is a dangerous misunderstanding in itself. 

    Not an expert, assumed there were huge differences.
    But I'm actually more interested in the populism topic, so reading Richard Evans' transcript now.
    ETA: wow, he even makes my same point about gas ovens, and bolsters yours re: "racism" more frequently a type of nationalism when comes to populists.

    yeah that blood in the soil thing, thousand year reich--is actually very romantic, grows out of 19th century romanticism, why Jews have a hard time with Wagner. One thing about it that has always interested me going way back. Putin gets it for sure?

    comes to mind how I had this as a textbook around 1972 as a freshman/sophomore in Madison, Late 19th/pre-war 20th Century European Cultural History, author was the professor:

    Nazi Culture by George L. Mosse

    Mosse was like a classic hawk Zionist type, dressed like he worked with the Pentagon geeks on the other side of campus (Stirling Hall which was famously bombed not long before). But he was also somewhat a courtly European intellectual type.

    The point of the story: there were a lot of older students in the class, including SDS radicals--which I still idolized at the time--they'd get up and argue with him in righteous anger about socialism vs. totalitarianism etc (which we covered in the class as well, of course) He'd shoot them down every single time for faulty thinking. Little arta's mouth was agape...I never checked whether he was a Nazi refugee, sure talked like one...anyone who knew nazi-ism iup close and personal very very picky about the word fascism as well.

    The Way We Were

    go to Yglesias' new blog for more thought provocation on topic,, (should note this is no Dave Chapelle but an elitely raised and elitely educated kid of elite Spanish-Cubans and Jews, growing into an adult elite media person) Scroll down to 

    [...] Outside the BA bubble

    Trump’s victory in 2016 involved a significant number of people who voted for Barack Obama in 2008 and 2012 flipping to Trump.

    Those voters were predominantly white people with no college degree who lived in the north and were not religious (southern and religiously observant non-college whites having gone GOP in earlier cycles). Discussion of their voting behavior swiftly degenerated into a stupid argument in which one side said they voted for Trump because they were racists and another side said they voted for Trump because of “economic anxiety” or as a “rejection of neoliberalism” or some such. The evidence, however, was and always has been simply overwhelming that cultural attitudes were what drove the change.

    Now words are just words and people can use them however they want. And certainly you can describe the cultural attitude of Obama/Trump vote-switchers as “racism” if you want to (certainly Trump himself said plenty of racist stuff and there are plenty of examples of Trump fans saying racist stuff and of racists praising Trump). The practical rhetorical function of that choice, however, was the anathematize the idea of trying to cater to their cultural attitudes at all even though whatever you want to say about those attitudes they were compatible with voting twice for a Black president [....]

    PP... Black Voters Matter in Atlanta

    You may find this interview quite interesting...

    November 14, 2020






    Blacks organizing, whites in suburbs organizing, will be an interesting runoff. I remember when Obama *didn't* campaign for a GA Democratic Senate candidate in runoff after 2008 election - maybe didn't want to damage his brand with a loss, maybe pivoting to "all Americans" for the crash bailout, not sure, but i still think it sent a bad signal to the party.

    We are in 2020, not 2008.

    Duh. And a full Dem effort to flip those 2 seats in January is appreciated, and a better signal for Biden going all out - President for all, but Democrats for close contests.

    just in case you're interested:

    This is a short clip without context. He signed a bad contract. People were streaming some of his work and he wasn't paid because of that contract. But there must be much more to this story. And other than he's happy that when he complained Netflix pulled his content we don't know his feelings and interpretation of each part of the story. Knowing a bit about Chappelle I can make guesses about that. They might be right, they might be wrong. I'll just leave it at that though and not speculate without the information. 

    I take a little comfort in knowing that not all African-Americans have written off the country as decisively as Ta Nehisi Coates has. Not that we don't need Coates.

    I take great comfort in knowing most of the blacks I've met in my life were pretty happy largely satisfied people, despite the obviousness that things could be better and sometimes awful things did occur. Fortunately I haven't had to derive my faith  and assurance just from online pundits working a 60s Afro-revolutionary heritage schtick ( i can get spicier, more animated words more direct from Baldwin, Dick Gregory, MLK, Malcolm, Alice Walker, Chuck D...). Yes, the poet who spoke yesterday got "the talk" from her mother at an early age, like most American blacks (and presumably a lot around the world). Though I will say some of us middle class folk got a similar talk, the "if you don't stay away from those redneck drug dealing friends of yours, you'll end up on the wrong side of the law", and indeed a number of them ended up dead, in jail, or shoveling shit for a living. Double that with our new breed of clueless protest idiots.

    a bit of news about Dave:

    4) in other news, Dave Chapelle has COVID. Not DC related but he did maybe superspread it at a party with other comedians + Elon Musk. Wondering if Musk is quarantining.

    — Eric Feigl-Ding (@DrEricDing) January 22, 2021

    I just discovered writer and actor Ryan Ken, *folds arms heterosexually*, 48,500 followers and growing:

    I finally did that TikTok trend

    — Ryan Ken (@Ryan_Ken_Acts) March 22, 2021

    (only cause he liked my comment on an art journo's thread defending a museum, where it's clear that said journo was salivating over possible chance to attack) Ryan looks like a lot of fun.

    Good for you to say, but since I'm a white man, best be going out and doing bad things.


    Prince & basketball - as Dangerfield would say, "who knew?"

    Tim Scott's mom:

    also recommended by a Maggie Haberman "like"

    apropos of nothing except a surprise performance from Chappelle:

    or maybe as Yglesias sort of implies, it is a signifier of future culture?

    Fits the quality i expect from the Foo Fighters 

    (for a comedian should I say "don't give up your night job"?)

    all that's going on is that MSM wants to get some of those passionate "culture wars" addicts on two opposing sides as viewers and clickers? and anyone who is signing Chapelle is looking to make money off the much bigger demographic who enjoy laughing at those culture warring people?


    (related reminder: “Wokeness is a problem and we all know it.”)

    Class, meet race (good comments thread follows)

    Condi Rice makes a better ex-official than her past political performances (somewhat like George W)

    The late Colin Powell has a better take on the issue of race. Powell picked Obama and Biden over their Republican opponents. Powell recognized system racism.

    Condi dismissed the threat to the United States and we got 9/11. Now she wants to ignore the threat posed by white supremacists. She is pathetic.

    Wow, you want to dismiss Colin Powell's complacency in helping us go to war in 2003? Did you know Powell helped hide Lt. Calley's Mass Murder in Vietnam for quite a few years? Condi's naïve - she's not Machiavellian. She's a born (or groomed) academic, and that's where she shines. And while I've laughed at her "no one could have predicted..." comment, it's something a newbie would say, and she's prolly regretted it a thousand times.

    She's a born (or groomed) academic,

    GEE, how'd she get that way? How come she's not celebrating black rap culture by twerking in a video while her baby papa plays with his handgun?

    Nice dodge

    Given Condi's logic, we should not teach about the Holocaust because white people committed the atrocities.

    White children may feel bad knowing that white people were involved.

    You and your kind are the ones who make children think they are personally responsible for everyone with their same color of skin that came before them for centuries if not thousands of years.

    You're the racist.

    It's very apropos to this thread; Chappelle would make a joke here about how you think EXACTLY like Hitler.

    You usually jump the shark, but this is way jumping the shark.

    yeah, and it's an easy bet that Condi knows way more about the importance of slavery in history than he does!

    Colin Powell, by Jacobin. Ultimate team player. It's not the most uncritical sour, just saying, but the critique seems reasonable.

    The Holocaust was carried out by white people. 

    We should stop teaching the Holocaust because it will make some white children feel bad.

    Nice diversion. Nobody was talking about not teaching about slavery in history class. They were talking about using CRT in the schools.

    Included in the Texas bill:

    The Texas Senate has voted to pass a bill that would remove a requirement for public school teachers to teach that the Ku Klux Klan is "morally wrong."

    My comment is on point

    On the Holocaust 

    A Texas school district has written a new chapter in the ugly history of Holocaust denial. 

    An administrator at Caroll Independent School District in South Lake told teachers to include books that present “opposing views”of the Holocaust. “Make sure that if you have a book on the Holocaust, that you have one that has opposing, that has other perspectives," executive director of curriculum and instruction Gina Peddy told a group of disbelieving educators. 

    The only other “perspective” on the Holocaust is denial. The demand to include it as a legitimate point of view is part of a larger effort to rewrite history to please those who fear the growing diversity of the United States.

    It still doesn't have to do with topic. You are as extremely simple minded as they are.

    Show me where Condi Rice is against teaching of the Holocaust and slavery in school.

    p.s. it's like some kind of strange algebra with you. The Texans writing that are nutsy paranoid Republicans who also don't like CRT. Condi Rice is a Republican who doesn't like CRT. Therefore, Condi Rice must be against teaching about the Holocaust and slavery in schools.

    Do you believe that CRT is being taught in public schools?

    Condi doesn't want white kids to feel bad. White parents are whining that books about Ruby Bridges and Separate But Equal make their children feel bad. Should those books be banned? Don't want feelings hurt.

    Does the CRT taught in higher education and law school attribute racism to individual white people?

    CRT is not taught in K-12

    Condi's solution to racism is not to let them know that they are exposing racist ideology.

    Former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice believes it’s essentially wrong to call people racist. This belief seems to be her ultimate solution to healing the racial divide in the country.

    Rice, who was a part of the Bush administration from 2005 until 2009, said during an appearance on CBS’ Face The Nation that the White House “needs language that recognizes how raw race is as a factor in America.” However, her solution to that is keeping quiet about calling out racist people. As she stated to CBS, “But I think we could all be better in the way that we deal with this very raw nerve, which is race. I think it’s time to stop labeling each other and using explosive terms like ‘she’s a racist, he’s a racist,’ that stops the conversation. When you say that, that’s meant to stop the conversation and we need to have the conversation.”

    In other words, according to Rice, pointing out that people’s viewpoints are racist doesn’t help stop racism. We should keep quiet about it and instead and try to have a conversation. However, this doesn’t make much sense because part of having a conversation about racism is pointing out how it manifests and how to unlearn it. Therefore, you have to bring it to light, which means people should be called out when they’re being racist.

    Condi is an expert on Russia.

    She had a blind spot that led to 9/11

    Despite intelligence officials telling us that white supremacists represent the biggest threat of terror attacks, she wants to move on from investigating 1/6.



    In other words she's saying don't label people assholes to their face or you're in for a useless or counter-productive conversation.
    Rice was in the Bush Administration for *8* years, 2001-2009, first as NSA, then as Secretary of State. She was particularly atrocious in these roles, as I said being more fit for academic roles than decision-based administration at the highest levels. She should have been known for her particularly awful "Chicken Kiev" speech during Bush Sr.'s years, advising Ukraine against "suicidal independence" weeks before they went for successful independence that brought down the Soviet Union.
    Yes, that's how government often works (especially the Republican variant) - complete failure is rewarded with a promotion to do more harm. 
    In any case, this has little to do with Rice's racial observation and lessons from her personal childhood/upbringing.
    Presuming all white people are recidivist racists has certainly not been a successful approach, no matter how much it's screamed, and in general compromises are found even among the most intractable enemies in finding areas of shared needs, wants & aspirations, not through flaming contention.

    CRT does not argue that white people are racists

    CRT argues that systems set up are racially biased

    Multiple governments are setting up voting regions that have racially biased outcomes.

    Black and Latino voters increased in Texas.

    The way the Texas voting system is set up results in Black and Latinos losing voting power in the state.

    CRT criticizes the voting structure.

    By the way, Condi also thinks that we should forget about investigating the January 6th attack.

    She sucked as a government official 

    She sucks as an academic.

    Might have been OK as a baseball commissioner.

    CRT from the American Bar Association 

    CRT does not define racism in the traditional manner as solely the consequence of discrete irrational bad acts perpetrated by individuals but is usually the unintended (but often foreseeable) consequence of choices. It exposes the ways that racism is often cloaked in terminology regarding “mainstream,” “normal,” or “traditional” values or “neutral” policies, principles, or practices. And, as scholar Tara Yosso asserts, CRT can be an approach used to theorize, examine, and challenge the ways which race and racism implicitly and explicitly impact social structures, practices, and discourses. CRT observes that scholarship that ignores race is not demonstrating “neutrality” but adherence to the existing racial hierarchy. For the civil rights lawyer, this can be a particularly powerful approach for examining race in society. Particularly because CRT has recently come under fire, understanding CRT and some of its primary tenets is vital for the civil rights lawyer who seeks to eradicate racial inequality in this country.

    Condi didn't say that - she said the DoJ is investigating it already, but outside politics sites we need to realize normal people have a lot of other concerns as well - high price of gas, homelessness in SF/LA, pandemic, fires, cost of housing, etc. If Dems only focus on Jan 6 they're going to lose. That's what she largely implied. A shame you didn't actually pay attention.

    Did she say much different 4 months ago?


    The public needs to see Congress addressing the issue.

    Democrats will lose seats in the midterms if history is a precedent.

    Congress is simultaneously working on kitchen table issues.

    Democrats have already taken action to lift children out of poverty

    They have done a horrible job in communicating their success.

    Powell supported CRT in schools?

    Powell was likely too busy fighting for his life to comment on CRT

    It is clear that Powell, in his latter years, supported Democratic Presidential candidates

    Powell supported affirmative action 

    And in 2003, he jumped into the fray over affirmative action. As the nation’s first Black secretary of state, he spoke out about Grutter v. Bollinger, a landmark Supreme Court case involving the University of Michigan Law School and racial preference in admissions. In doing so, he broke ranks with the White House and then-President George W. Bush. 

    “I’m a strong believer in affirmative action,” Powell said at the time on the CBS news program “Face the Nation.” He later echoed those sentiments on CNN

    “I wish it was possible for everything to be race-neutral in this country, but I’m afraid we’re not yet at that point where things are race-neutral,” he said. “I believe race should be a factor, among many other facts, in determining the makeup of the student body of a university.”

    CRT is far from affirmative action or being race-neutral or the Democratic platform.

    CRT is not being taught in K-12

    The idea is to ignore the truth about slavery and Jim Crow.

    CRT is not being taught in K-12

    I don't know that and I don't think you do either. I''ve seen no data about how prevalent it is. It seems clear there are some attempts to get some version of it into the schools.  There is at least a movement to add it that has had at least some success. To simply claim it isn't being taught isn't a very good answer to the issue. It's just a way of avoiding the it

    What are examples of what you describe?

    Are we talking about a widespread practice, or isolated incidents that can be contorted to create fear?

    Edit to add:

    Christopher Rufo is a major proponent of the idea that CRT is rampant

    Here is an article noting the error in his statements

    2nd Edit to add: 

    CRT does not call individual white people racists

    CRT focuses on systems that produced biased outcomes

    If isolated schools are calling white people racists, that is a problem that exists within the individual school

    Those schools are not teaching CRT.

    Wow, graduates of CRT woke re-education camps write glowing reviews of their time there - that's totally surprising. I'm sure many other cults could learn from them.

    If those who reject the idea that CRT is being taught in K-12 are a cult, so are Christopher Rufo, et. al.

    I said nothing re K-12 - seems you can't miss a chance to toss something out anyway.

    Yeah, ye olde rmrd strawman, beat that hobby horse til he's dead...

    The discussion began with Condi saying tha she did not want white schoolchildren to feel bad. The discussion is about K-12.

    2.5 million views now.

    But I thought critical race theories in the schools was bogus made up bullshit.

    Interesting how Whoopi keeps murmuring in agreement after every of her sentences....

    I wonder how many views posts about Ivermectin received.

    A swimming rat video has had over 5 mi!lion views

    Rice is another prevaricating Republican who was, as GWB National Security Advisor,  the first high administration official to OK torture in 2002. 

    On a lighter side,  this video is pushing 62 million views, Hollywood Classics Era dance stars dance to Uptown Funk.


    But wait, there's more cheeky

    The idea that things like CRT are victim hood narratives is told via white supremacist narrative.

    When you dig into issues like slavery, you find that Africans fought enslavers in Africa, Africans fought enslavers on the slave ships, and rebellions were led by enslaved people in the colonies. The truth is an empowering message.

    Statuesof Lee are coming down and statues of Denmark Vesey are going up.

    There are whites upset up the fact that the Lost Cause myth is being replaced by truth,

    The segregation that is happening is being done by white legislatures trying to decrease the voting power of rising populations of Black and Latino communities.

    Uh, if they believe the Lost Cause myth, they don't really care about whatever "truth" you think they're upset over, amirite?
    Slaves & rebellions - those did a lot of good, didn't they.
    I'm sure Denmark Vesey will have a nice long shelflife, whoever/whatever he is.
    Those Latino commuities are voting Republican half the time, so not sure how you're lumping Black & Latino together - you missed a few decades, Rip.

    You are the one mounting an argument to make Black people victims.

    The fact that Black people were willing to fight for freedom against overwhelming odds is a thing of pride, not shame.

    The massacre of United States Colored Troops by Confederate soldiers at Fort Pillow makes me proud that they fought and died, 

    Being willing to die for a cause is an act of honor..

    See Medgar Evers, John Lewis, and Martin Luther King Jr.

    Now you're really confused about who you are arguing with: You are the one mounting an argument to make Black people victims. That was Kenny Xu on Twitter. Why don't you go over there and argue with him? Are you afraid of doing that? He's totally open to replies. Why make up adversaries here?

    The discussion was with PP.

    Jesus, black people *were* victims, isn't that beyond a doubt? Sure, there's honor in fighting back, but this wasn't India under the Raj where they stood some chance of success - this was mostly Warsaw ghetto stuff, guaranteed futility, a few escaping.

    And it's really hard to discuss history if you flip from slave era up to the 60s with no self-awareness.

    Why would he be proud soldiers died at Ft Pillow, and why is every event involving blacks something to remember and cherish? Whatshisname from Standard oil hit a gusher in Pennsylvania - should my ethnic roots be partying? And with Dinner Pass should I celebrate the feast or the crossing or the perseverance? So confusing.

    The point is that there is uplift in the stories of survival and sacrifice from enslavement, through the Civil War and Jim a row, carrying through to today.

    You said:

    Slaves & rebellions - those did a lot of good, didn't they.
    I'm sure Denmark Vesey will have a nice long shelflife, whoever/whatever he is.

    Yes, the rebellions told us, we did not have to give up.

    They are inspirations.

    I don't expect you to understand.

    I understand getting your ass kicked and having to have someone else free you. It happens. The Irish didn't exactly triumph in Ireland so they bailed out to the Americas. But trying to turn historic defeat into some kind of triumph can turn you neurotic. Take this guy celebrating the glory of the Britons and their resilience against exploitation:

    hey that's good teasing on anarchists, too; what's old is new again.

    Books like "Force and Freedom" tell the story of armed Black Abilitionists.

    There is no shame

    The shame would be in giving up.

    No neurosis

    Enjoy your laughs.

    Huh? They were enslaved for decades/centuries. Theres no shame for giving up - it was largely hopeless. Admirable if not, depending, but still, i can't even understand judging in any way..

    And who exactly are the ones going against the tide TODAY in 2021? Some would say YOU are the one who doesn't understand:

    The Bari Weiss sub stack includes a video snippet of Weiss interviewed by Seltzer on CNN

    She talks about school children's classrooms were being separated by race as part of an attempt to achieve diversity

    I find no evidence that this practice is widespread, it is not

    The widespread practice is that schools themselves are segregated by race. Wealthy schools are mainly white. Over 50% of students attend schools that are over 75% of one ethnic group.

    Looking for separation of classrooms by race , I found one story that allegly this was the case in one Atlanta elementary school. A complaint was filed by a Black parent

    Do you have evidence that this is a widespread practice?

    Hunting for CRT in classrooms and class segregation by race by the Woke, are snipe hunts.

    Fortunately, Condi's comments are facing ridicule. John McWhorter and Bari Weiss are experts at riling up a small group of parents, that is how they make their money.

    I liked the part were he said his transgender friends have all been very supportive. I'm sure he would be very understanding  then if someone white came up to him and said he couldn't be racist because he has black friends.

    I get a kick out of Unilever appreciating all minorities' heritage so much, as they would like them to stop thinking of Heilmann's mayo and Breyer's Oreo Ice Cream as whypipples' imperialist foodstuff:

    and then there's Wells Fargo realizing Black lives matter and can be unpredictable:

    "Heil Mann", eh? I see what you did...

    Though Oreos are kind of bicultural, no?

    Philadelphia cream cheese is white, but:

    Condi says we just need to move on

    Lawfare points out why a Congressional Commission is important 

    The Jan. 6 Select Committee Isn't Just a Formality

    Why bring this up here and not on PP's thread about Trump scandals where we've been posting the news on the commission? More weird algebra to convince some strawman out there that what Condi Rice is bad? Or are you trying to say Jan. 6 was all about race and she refuses to realize that and stand up for her side and participate in the race war?

    Condi didn't say that - she said th DoJ is handling it, so parties need to focus on what people need, not just Washington scandals. How many times must i repeat?

    The article is pointing out why the Congress should be involved.

    Congress *is* involved - there's a Jan 6 House commission issuing subpoenas for testimony. You act like you're breaking a hidden story. The DoJ is steadily rolling up hundreds of pleas, getting trials going on others, extending investigation's upwards.

    Meanwhile for the non-elite, there's the continuing pandemic, high gas prices, screwed up supply chain, more shootings in the streets, vote disenfranchisement for coming elections, war on abortion escalated, etc.


    Condoleezza Rice: January 6th was wrong, but it’s time to move on.

    Sunny Hostin: But the past will become prologue if we don’t find out what happened before we move on.

    Rice: We will, but the American people have other concerns.

    Mis-spin it all you want - she said the DoJ is handling it so the politicians need to focus on kitchen sink issues. Ironically Condi was also saying people like her should move on and be replaced by new blood. But people are too invested in bitching about things that weren't actually said.

    Interpretation is that Congress should not be investigating, and should move on.

    Congress has an important role

    Mis-interpret all you want. There's a Congressional committee investigating - she's not telling them to stop. Meanwhile the rest of Congress can focus on kitchen table issues where Americans are suffering that might help the Dems keep a majority in 2022. And that they need to push the old farts like her out if the way and come up with new, more appropriate solutions.

    And I got the impression that at first Condi was trying to explain *Colin's* "just move on".

    But you go on hating on and spinning Condi - she's easy game.

    She said what she said, so she is easy game

    Her words were understood

    'In Total Denial': Condi Rice Wants To ‘Move On’ From Jan. 6. Roland & #RMUSay Not So Fast ...

    The former secretary of state offered controversial and right-leaning views on the Capitol riot and critical race theory as a guest co-host on the daytime talk show Wednesday.

    Rice, a Republican, said during her appearance that the attack “was wrong” and that the events that transpired on Jan. 6 caused her to cry “for the first time since I was the national security advisor on Sept. 11.”

    But Rice, who teaches political science at Stanford University, qualified that it’s time for lawmakers to “move on” from the domestic threat to democracy that left five people dead.

    Condoleezza Rice on Jan. 6: Americans have 'other concerns we should be talking about'

    Condoleezza Rice Says 1/6 Capitol Riot ‘Was Wrong’ But ‘It’s Time to Move On


    No it's your type, fan of "The Root" etc., who is easy game. You're a minority of a minority. She was Sec. of State.Here's a fellow who shares skin color who doesn't agree with you. He's got 32,000+ followers on Twitter and some prominent friends and you are arguing with straw men on Dagblog:

    Oh to be fair, I believe that NCD and Lulu on Dagblog might agree with you that Condi is evil and needs to be canceled, but probably not for the same reasons you think that.

    The is evidence that Republican members of Congress encouraged the insurrection 

    If they gain control of Congress, we will be moving on to an authoritarian government 

    Cancel culture is not the issue, this is merely criticism of statements made by Condoleeza Rice

    I don't care that someone named Delano Squires disagrees with me.

    He appears to have connections to Jason Whitlock and the Blaze, which tells me a lot.

    He seems to be taking her side on the CRT snipe hunt

    Reading history is reading history, it is not about making white children feel

    History should not demand that Black children have the truth hidden from them.

    The goal of the nonsensical CRT assault is to prevent teaching of things like Ruby Bridge's story and teaching things like Toni Morrison's "Beloved".


    Why are you mentioning NCD and Lulu?


    Wow Delano Squires has 32K followers.


    All my skinfolk ain't my kinfolk

    How many followers do Matt Gaetz and Marjorie Taylor Greene have?


    Delano Squires - that's a read

    yeah it's a really great essay at a lousy publication; shows you how good independent writers like this have nowhere to go, he obviously left  or was forced out of The Root when they changed, now he's stuck publishing at The Blaze with loads of conservative crap

    Even worse, HuffPost is run by ex-Root now - feel the excess 

    "Christian Conservative" Melissa Tate (note her "My Pillow" connection as well) tweeted Floyd Mayweather video about Kyrie Irving being a leader:

    Free thinking black men may just be the catalyst that saves America. Floyd Mayweather supports the basic human right to choose what goes into your body.

    — Melissa Tate (@TheRightMelissa) October 26, 2021


    Withholding delish ironic inappropriate remarks.

    But just consider the array of medical probes and fingers women have shoved inside them as part of normal and emergency healthcare along with extra medication and hormone treatment as part of the much greater typical treatments women get, and think how much they get to "decide" what goes into their bodies and why a couple anti-science male athlete douchebags (oops, forgot that insert) get to be the amazing new trailblazers for human body rights including for women?

    Personally I think what's especially ironic is that you were chided upthread that you "just don't understand" the exciting inspirational and romantic appeal of he-roes who have risen up against the dominant prevailing winds of society at large. No such problem for Miz Tate and Mr. Mayweather;  they totally "understand" simple-minded glorification of all rebels. the latter even offering comparative examples from history and the former eager to promote & sell.

    Gee, this sounds SO SO familiar:

    The comedian Mort Sahl early in his career. An inveterate contrarian and a wide-ranging skeptic, he was known to ask audiences, “Are there any groups I haven’t offended?”Credit...Leo Friedman

    Mort Sahl, Whose Biting Commentary Redefined Stand-Up, Dies at 94

    A self-appointed warrior against hypocrisy, he revolutionized comedy in the 1950s by addressing political and social issues.

    By Bruce Weber @, Oct. 26

    Mort Sahl, who confronted Eisenhower-era cultural complacency with acid stage monologues, delivering biting social commentary in the guise of a stand-up comedian and thus changing the nature of both stand-up comedy and social commentary, died on Tuesday at his home in Mill Valley, Calif., near San Francisco. He was 94.

    The death was confirmed by Lucy Mercer, a friend helping to oversee his affairs.

    Gregarious and contentious — he was once described as “a very likable guy who makes ex-friends easily” — Mr. Sahl had a long, up-and-down career. He faded out of popularity in the mid-1960s, when he devoted his time to ridiculing the Warren Commission report on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy; then, over the following decades, he occasionally faded back in. But before that he was a star and a cult hero of the intelligentsia [.....]

    I dunno if I agree that they should be canceled but I certainly do find it highly offensive:

    This is definitely language of noblesse oblige by elites. looking down their noses behind their backs. Except even the original French nobles wouldn't use this type of thing, it's basically tres gauche...even an 18th century gent who considered "the other" a different and lesser species wouldn't be so stupid as to categorize by body skin color alone, I can't think of a single one. They very clearly saw different classes of people in any society with shared skin color.

    In the future, everyone will be canceled for 15 minutes.

    Warhol's alleged quotation first appeared in print in a program for his 1968 exhibit at the Moderna Museet in StockholmSweden. In the autumn of 1967, Pontus Hultén (the director for the Moderna Museet) asked Olle Granath to help with the production of the exhibit, which was due to open in February 1968. Granath was tasked with writing a program for the exhibit, complete with Swedish translations. He was given a box of writings by and about Warhol to use for the program. Granath claims that submitting his manuscript, Hultén asked him to insert the quote: "In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes." To which Granath replied that quote was not in the material he was given. Hultén replied, "if he didn’t say it, he could very well have said it. Let’s put it in."[3]

    Photographer Nat Finkelstein claimed credit for the expression, stating that he was photographing Warhol in 1966 for a proposed book. A crowd gathered trying to get into the pictures and Warhol supposedly remarked that everyone wants to be famous, to which Finkelstein replied, "Yeah, for about fifteen minutes, Andy."[4]

    Anyway, Warhol did cans that sell, not cancels nor canned cells. Not sure how everyone keeps fucking this up...

    Always interesting to watch Barrington do his thing (for me he's more interesting than Chappelle):

    love this more sophisticated & thought-provoking analysis of Chappelle themes:

    Chappelle: "Literally, if you look at history, recently, we have bombed the masculinity out of an entire continent. We dropped two atomic bombs on fucking Japan, and they’ve been drawing Hello Kitty and shit ever since. There’s a lot of lady-boys in the wake of our bombs."

    — Wesley Yang (@wesyang) October 27, 2021

    He's not rubbing it in. He's empathizing with a specific kind of masculinist anti-colonial sentiment -- and lamenting that they punished Pacquaio for anti-gay speech when he was the champion vindicating the masculinity of a conquered nation.

    — Wesley Yang (@wesyang) October 27, 2021

    I want to ask Chappelle how he reconciles the Kaepernick ad campaign with his views here, from 2017. Perhaps they were right then, but things took a turn. How does he interpret?

    — Wesley Yang (@wesyang) October 27, 2021

    From the 2017 Netflix special the Age of Spin

    — Wesley Yang (@wesyang) October 27, 2021

    (pretty good discussion follows in replies)

    The internet did something weird to our minds. It possibly made us more empathetic than before by putting every bit of the world on display. This is maybe why progressive politics have gone a much farther distance than they did during the other times you mentioned. But it also made us much, much more miserable for the same reason.

    Those events from the 1960s or 1980s. Look at the movie Forrest Gump to see how people processed such events way back when. Forrest didn't feel ashamed for escalating many incidents in his life. What people thought of him didn't seem to phase him as much in real life as it may have it was in text. He sat on a park bench to tell his story because there was no Dagblog, no Facebook, etc. It was part of the passing scene. "That's all I got to say about that."

    Compare that with reality TV or a Netflix show. Everything is demonstrated in its most gorey detail. It's no wonder millenials are so depressed. 

    I'm watching this right now on HBO so I thought it might be interesting to plop if here as a factoid:

    Jay-Z was inducted into the Hall of Fame by comedian Dave Chappelle, who praised his friend and expressed how much he means not only to music and hip hop, but Black culture. ... That to us is what hip hop is.” The 2021 Rock & Roll Hall of Fame induction ceremony will air on HBO Nov. 20.Nov 2, 2021

    Jay-Z inducted into Rock & Roll Hall of Fame by Dave Chappelle

    p.s. and yes, he used the N-word 

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