MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Natasha Gural's first piece for The Awl, an excellent read about an elegant bromance.
Comments
Wow, sounds like that child rapist made a really great movie. I think all great artists should be able to get away with raping 13 year old girls all they want. They deserve it for all the great art they give us.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 1:42pm
While I'm not sympathetic to Polanski, I think the judge's actions in the case were egregious and missed the chance for justice & completion that Polanski had pleaded guilty to. Folks say Assange should go back to Sweden, but once a lynch mob or hanging judge has been appointed, there's not much good to come out of it.
Geimer is impressive, and her summary of the situation shed light on the complexity and the changes in social mores over time - as noted, Elvis met Priscilla at 14, and values in 1977 Hollywood were a lot different from these current strangely conservative days in America. That she didn't understand it at first as rape herself - that came after time, but it wasn't the devastation that people want it to have been. And that Polanski eventually seemed to grow a clue stick himself - a bit late in the day, but whatever.
And I'm quite used to the idea that famous people won't be brought to justice - for actions much worse than Polanski's - from Scooter Libby to those guilty of mass theft of people's assets to cold-blooded murder abroad to our codified system of brutal prison rapes that's part of our "rehabilitation" for millions including imprisonment for minor drugs. People complain about overuse of the example of Bush's trumped up war 10 years ago, but a Hollywood incident from 36 years ago that's mostly been atoned for is supposed to still bring outrage & condemnation? I suppose I should spit and scuff dirt every time I hear Woody Allen's name as well.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 6:18pm
Samantha Geimer's grand jury testimony.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/roman-polanski-fugitive-director?page=0
by ocean-kat on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 7:34pm
Please -what in particular are you sending me to 37 pages of grand jury testimony to see? Happy to read on if there's a particular point.
He pled guilty, he gave a 13-year-old a qualuud and champagne and then sodomized her - he raped a minor. It wasn't a brutal rape, he didn't take away her innocence, but it was rape of a child.
If the plea bargain with the judge had been more jail or a larger fine or what not, that would be fine with me too. But Polanski's fleeing America was not about not facing his crime - he'd already pled guilty and made a deal. It was being caught in a judge & an attorney's political or other ambitions. Yeah, that's not new or unique either, but he had the resources to get out of it. Life goes on.
Marc Rich is still free in Switzerland - a double standard applied to his dealings with Iran (compared to what dozens of other companies did including Cheney's), civil penalties still too severe for him to return to the US, caught up in Giuliani's political rise. But what me worry?
I'm not exactly sure why you're more bitter and upset than the girl/now grown woman at the center of it. She's not angry with Polanski - she's angry with the judge and the media.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 12:51am
Clearly you need to read the testimony if you think there's any similarity between Polanski's rape of a 13 year old girl and Woody Allen marrying his adopted daughter when there is no evidence that he did anything inappropriate with her before she was 21. Personally I think its a bit weird but she's over 21 so its not anyone's business. If you turn up any evidence he molested her as a child or raped her when she was 21 I'll feel the same way about Allen as I do about Polanski.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 2:42am
Well, okay. This doesn't really have anything to do with the crime, though.
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 6:31pm
What, past is past and we really should let the poor guy get on with his life? Kinda like how Bush is a painter now so we should all let that Iraq War thing go? Let's only talk about OJ's football career?
Since the only punishment Polanski is going to get for raping a 13 year old girl is a little bit of embarrassment I think he should be shamed every time his name comes up.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 7:15pm
Doesn't affect my opinion of Rosemary's Baby. Doesn't change that I loved Carnage.
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 8:20pm
Ok, but Rosemary's Baby and Carnage doesn't change the fact that he raped a 13 year old girl.
by ocean-kat on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 8:33pm
Nor does that change the quality of those two films.
by Michael Maiello on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 9:15pm
Nor does the quality of those two films in any way justify or lessen Polanski's vile rape of a 13 year old girl. There's a lot of rapists of children in jail. I'll bet that everyone of them at some time in their life did something good, kind, or generous. Why don't you make a list of the good things child rapists have done in their life? Or is it just famous artist child rapists that get a free pass from you?
by ocean-kat on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 10:07pm
I'm sure there are a lot of artists and public figures whose work we admire who did much more heinous things than Polanski. I can still talk about Ike Turner and Phil Spector's music without having to bring up brutal wife beating and murder. Bu I guess Michael has been schooled - he must say "the rapist Polanski" up front should he ever want to refer to one of his movies - otherwise he's approving of Polanski's act.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 1:02am
Michael can say whatever he wants and so can I. He can ignore my comment or decide to discuss it with me. He decided he wanted to talk about my comment. I feel totally comfortable with my opinions and in every comment I've made in this thread.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 2:29am
Should there be a label on every Picasso painting that he was a real nasty abuser of spouses before anyone is allowed to look at them?
Suppose Carl Andre, the famous minimalist sculptor, was convicted and not acquitted of killing his wife? Would that mean one should not look at his work? (From the link: the Guerrilla Girls labeled him the “O.J. of the Art World,”)
Not to mention that Weekend of A Champion was created 6 years before the incident in question. If one were trying to put the film in the context of director life influence while viewing the film, it would make more sense to look at the murder of his wife and in-utero child by the Manson gang only two years before (but judging from the film's topic and reviews, not very much sense, mho.)
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:44am
Why are you asking me these questions? Did I say every Polanski film should start with an announcement that Polanski is a rapist? Let me check, oh lookie I didn't. Did I say no one should be allowed to see Polanski's films or even that they shouldn't?
You want to discuss this film with Michael or any one else here I guarantee I won't interrupt every sub-thread pointing out that Polanski is a rapist. Even if I was that rude I'm sure the moderators would stop me.
I feel totally comfortable starting this little sub-thread, in fact I'm glad I did. One of several reasons is that prominent people are still defending him on tv. Like Whoopi Goldberg on the view claiming it wasn't "rape rape." Clearly she and others haven't read the transcript of the victim's grand jury testimony.
Some claim he's atoned or that later in life he got a clue. I haven't seen it. He could make a statement. He could ask people to stop defending him. He could say what he did was wrong. He could say that pedophilia in Hollywood is a problem, as it is in all society, and something should be done to protect child actors. Then maybe I'd say he's gotten a clue, that maybe he's atoned.
Until then, when his name comes up I'll post the fact that he's a slimy child rapist
by ocean-kat on Mon, 11/25/2013 - 2:10am
"Did I say every Polanski film should start with an announcement that Polanski is a rapist? Let me check, oh lookie I didn't."
vs
"Until then, when his name comes up I'll post the fact that he's a slimy child rapist"
Okay, there's some kind of subtle difference there - your personal mission, not a societal / industry requirement.
Anyway, as I noted, the focus on the judge's statements/questions in the courtroom vs. how a normal plea bargain goes might undermine the certainty of those quoting that session.
http://richardbrenneman.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/roman-polanski-it%E2%80%99s-a-simple-matter-of-law/
http://richardbrenneman.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/the-roman-polanski-the-facts-of-the-case-pt-i/#comment-675
http://richardbrenneman.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/roman-polanski-redux-a-judicial-horror-story/
Whoopi Goldberg is wrong, Polanski is still a shmuck and a rapist who made a girl's life very difficult, but that doesn't mean the way the case was handled was proper. Not because there was a double standard, but because there seems to have been an agreed double standard and that double standard wasn't followed through after agreement - as I noted, in closed room bargaining. The prosecutor in the case, Roger Gunson, apparently testified that Polanski had served the tie required in this case, but the US extradition proceedings refused to release the transcripts of Gunson's meeting to the Swiss government. Oops, the Swiss then refused to extradite.
Most of the time plea bargains involve people who've committed crimes - often unsavory - and obviously the point of a plea bargain is to get a lower sentence (by the defendent), to save public resources & make conviction certain (by the judge), and hopefully to make justice move quicker than trial-by-jury allows. (I believe something like 90% of cases are pled rather than go to trial). Polanski pled guilty, and from what the Swiss indicated, it seems Polanski fulfilled the conditions of that deal. For what it's worth, Polanski also publicly apologized to Geimer, even if not the strongest or timeliest mea culpa.
And some basic facts on rape to put this in perspective: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/50-facts-rape_b_2019338.html - it's not like Polanski's case is very unusual except that he was caught and pled guilty and actually spent some time in prison. "22. Percentage of rapists who are never incarcerated: 97 percent"
So in conclusion, "Until then, when his name comes up I'll post the seeming fact that an overzealous self-absorbed judge seems to have screwed up an agreed high-profile conviction even while DAs 20 years later are still playing for the conservate Law 'n Order cameras". Should balance things out, no?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/25/2013 - 6:17pm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/50-facts-rape_b_2019338.html
I've posted those statistics here before. The difference is I posted them to show how inadequate our criminal justice system is in dealing with rape while you posted them to justify letting a rapist go unpunished. There's lots of disagreement as to what happened before Polanski flew to England. You think its important but none of it makes a damn bit of difference to me. Interesting that you always chose the articles that let the rapist go free. Shows how different we view things.
I'm not into telling people what to post here. That's your game. You can post whatever you want.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 11/25/2013 - 7:12pm
He pled guilty and spent some time in prison (not jail, Chino prison - seemingly under disguise as "psychiatric evaluation" so judge could say he spent time in prison). You can bitch about whether that was enough, but that seems to be the punishment agreed to with the courts.
The rapist would eventually go free at end of time served, so all we're arguing about is whether enough time was served.
Again, Polanski admitted his guilt and spend 1 1/2 months in prison. Additionally, he's undoubtedly lost millions of dollars over 3 decades and a good amount of freedom as a world-known director, so no, unlike most rapists, he didn't just "go free".
PS - and in slightly related news, the Steubenville teachers face up to 7 years for obstructing the investigation into the rape and Facebooking of a comatose drunk girl, while the guy who helped Anonymous hackers shame the police into doing something faces 10 years. No good deed goes unpunished.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 11/26/2013 - 6:51am
Hi did spend some time in jail, and the point was the judge was opening this up for open-ended incarceration after a plea had been made.
He spent more time in jail than anyone involved in starting the Iraq War, and possibly for anyone who caused the 2008 meltdown.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 12:53am
Well hell then, nobody should go to jail because those who started the Iraq war didn't do time. Should we let every rapist off and those serving their sentence out of jail until Cheney does time? Or just famous artist child rapists?
Yes your honor. I raped that 13 year old girl. But Dick Cheney and George Bush never went to jail so I don't think I should either.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 4:28am
Polanski dealt with the legal system - he was in jail/psychiatric evaluation for 1 1/2 months as part of his . Not a lot, but more than Scooter Libby, much less Dick Cheney., Karl Rove, others who leaked & lied.
Polanski accepted his guilt - Libby still maintains he's innocent. Polanski even returned from Europe to go to jail for the psychiatric evaluation as part of the process. Note, I don't in general accept fleeing the US just because someone might face prison - frankly I would suggest minimum 3 months as a wakeup call for him & others, but I didn't strike the deal. It's the sudden change of the judge after Polanski's playing by the rules that bothers me and makes me not care about Polanski leaving.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 4:58am
I can't believe you're still hanging onto this dumb ass argument. I'd like to see Cheney tried for war crimes. The fact that its not going to happen doesn't mean all rapists should receive a get out of jail free card.
As for the rest of your nonsense.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/10/02/the-lost-polanski-trans...
No matter what his lawyers expected no judge is required to accept a plea deal. Polanski could have withdrawn his plea at any time and gone to trial to be judged by a jury.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 5:59am
Ah, finally you produce an article relevant to the question. Yes, *if* the story of what was agreed is wrong, then that obviously changes the conclusions (does not change that it was drug-induced rape). Whether this synopsis contains all the pertinent info re: any background discussions, promises, etc., I don't know. [e.g. I don't know if there's a game of "even though you've pled to a certain arrangement, we'll still act as if we can do what we want until we deliver on what we implied", or if this case was differrent from a typical plea bargain, etc...]
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 7:14am
I thought there was a statute of limitations for sex with a minor, but I guess there isn't.
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 8:15pm
That should be rape of a 13 year old girl. Not consensual sex, not statutory rape, not sex with a minor. Rape, plain and simple rape. Read the transcript of Samantha Geimer's grand jury testimony if you're confused.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/roman-polanski-fugitive-director?page=0
by ocean-kat on Thu, 11/21/2013 - 8:38pm
It's more like there's a "statute of complications" in this case:
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 1:10am
"She says: "I did something wrong, I was stupid… To pose topless, and to drink and to take the [sleeping] pill." Here I disagree - by default, 13-year-olds are too likely to make bad decisions and that's why we protect them to a large extent. The whole point of "topless", "drink", "pill" was a steady path at manipulation and slow surrender, the inability to say no and have it stick with a persistent middle-aged man.
[if it was about the girl who drank herself into a coma and then the kids around her molested her and posted photos, yes, I think that girl did something stupid, even though it doesn't justify the response by presumed friends]
This wasn't getting into a car with a stranger - this was going for a modeling tryout with an industry professional. Gaultier, Galliano, Lagerfeld deal with tons of underage aspiring models each year, and I imagine topless might be required as part of the changing, or see-through tops and after-hours parties are part of the landscape - more the reason for the adults to protect the underage talent, not be their #1 predators. At least the casting couch is typically for legally adult females - a sordid decision, but one they're presumably more mature to make.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 7:28am
BTW, statute of limitations is about the ability to bring charges. He was charged and pled guilty. He is a fugitive from justice. From a 2009 Q & A @ Slate:
So now we have a situation where the victim no longer wants the case pursued. And the perp who pled guilty has not gone on to commit further crimes, at least not for which he has been implicated. So for many years, this has really been about the honor of the state of California and its ability to enforce punishment as regards a guilty plea as it sees fit. It's really all about their plea bargain process at the time and whether they acted fairly or whether the perp was treated with special consideration that was then threatened to be withdrawn. It should be noted that they could probably could not hold a successful trial on new/different charges because the victim is not at all amenable.
The real lesson: how prosecutors handle themselves is important.
Meanwhile, we can all continue to punish him (and her) with media coverage, opinioning in blog posts and elsewhere because he and his country of France choose not to submit to California's request that he serve time. If he did serve time, would the media and Joe-Smith-opining stop? Probably not.
by artappraiser on Fri, 11/22/2013 - 10:17am