MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Read to the end where Williams says much the same (& she and her sister were beaten by men's #203 in one afternoon).
How realistic, accepting, insightful are we in both differences in sexes as well as (frequent) differences in approaches?
Comments
Methinks it's all about hormones and other things affected by them such as neurotransmitters (and the Soviets knew that! just an extremely rudimentary understanding, a blunt instrument)
How do I synch that with feminism? Gender is not polar opposites except for a minority. The ultra feminine and the ultra masculine are just the two poles on either end that serve the stereotypes, but most people are a mix inbetween.
So you will have a female tennis player that is far better than many men playing tennis but you will still have more men at the top than women.
What scientists don't know about the human body is legion. Doctors know even less unless they have tons of experience and then it's just intuitive knowledge.
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/26/2017 - 10:33pm
Was flying yesterday so didn't expound too much.
In this case I don't think it's hormones - it's muscle and bone structure. 40 years after the famed Billie Jean - Bobby Riggs match, it was surprising to me that the the #1 female completely agreed the men are way better - and that she & her top-tiered sister were creamed in a not-completely-authoritative-but-good-enough match against #203 male player. (a few years ago, I'd heard one of them say "bring on the men", but assume now this wasn't too serious).
And I think this is less about what doctors know, and more about what we as a society discuss and grasp and explore and permit to be discussed. It has implications for age, gender, race/culture/genetic pools, and other possible slices and dices of humanity. More and more we're able to do deep analytics on all traits, and admirably we also resist the most divisive and inhumane of them.
But, as just one example, if we know that men are simply to the 95% (or whatever) stronger than women, how does that inform us liberals' stance on women in combat, or do we simply do our best to ignore it and pretend it doesn't matter?
[whereas in other areas we seem to know that these factors have little effect on performance, yet seem to use the uncodified as a basis for wholescale discrimination against women]
And as for hormones, which I think we understand much much less than muscles and bone structure - we tend to laugh and scoff and dismiss as retrograde simians any talk of hormonal proclivities and their effects and place in human behavior/society/etc. As an example here, we understand that women often need hormone treatment post-partum and going into menopause, etc., but we don't even discuss men's hormones except the need to control them. It's probably the most complex physiological system we have, yet we deal with it much like Nancy Reagan's "Just Say No" or "it's there, but don't worry about it".
Anyway, just tripped a buzzer in me saying again how much we're children playing on the beach in front of an ocean we don't understand, or flickering of the shadows on the wall of the cave. From Plato to Einstein, where have we got?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 12:23am
I probably agree that the main differentiating factor is muscle mass and bone structure. But you're discussing this in a simplistic way. We need to think about this within the context of a double bell curve.
Williams, perhaps the best female tennis player, might lose to most of the male professional tennis players. But she would still beat 99.99% of all men.
But I'd rather address your paragraph about women in combat. I'm not a strong man. I'm 5' 4" and I've spent a lot of time in my bed reading books. Let's hypothesize that 75% of men are stronger than me. Let's assume the deviation of the curves is such that 55% of women are stronger than me. Assume I have the minimum strength to be in the infantry. 25% of men and 45% of women lack the physical capability to qualify for combat duty. That still means that 55% of women could be combat qualified and some of the strongest women in the infantry would be stronger than some of the weakest infantry men.
Of course these numbers are made up to illustrate a point. But clearly, if one looks around the world or watches even the small amount of sports I do, there's at least a significant minority of the strongest women that are stronger than a significant minority of the weakest males.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 2:43am
Pretend it doesn't matter or rather wait and see how much it does matter. How much does brute strength matter in combat as compared to the ability to not freak out and run away, or generally make the right choices in high-pressure situations? Is hand to hand combat really 90% of the TOR? That isn't to say that you don't need to be able to carry an 80 pound backpack around in 110 degree heat when on patrol.
Admittedly, my experience with military combat-role training is limited to an SAS-style French Foreign Legion documentary I once saw, but it seemed like the salient skill set that separated the wheat from the chaff was an ability to stay awake after 48 hours of crawling around in the mud.
by Obey on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 4:39am
We surely do know that steroid hormones affect surely muscle and bone! And therefore things like power of limbs. That's why body builders (and baseball players famously sometimes) take them and why Olympians take drug tests...why some female Soviet Olympians in the past looked like men.
Who has not seen a lesbian dyke who looks like one of those Soviet Olympians naturally as if she could lift a truck? Why do you think that is? Her natural mix of hormones.
Some women have the right mix of hormones that can build a body to compete as well in certain sports where more men have the same. There is definitely the effect (also well known to body builders) that the right diet and exercise make much more of that which you already have, from childhood on.
Then we must not forget that most highly competitive sports were developed by and for male bodies from the getgo.
Create a highly competitive sport where fine motor skills rule and more women will be better than men at it. This does not mean some men will not be great at it too.
That's all I was saying. Including that we truly don't know much about the body's hormones yet, it is a particular interest of mine. That issue happens to rule the whole why do people get fat thing. And the diet thing. Every individual is different the way they process forms of energy. Scientists are continually finding out that when they come out and say something like "refined flour not good to eat" it is not true for every person. They don't understand why so many insulin pumps go haywire with the modern diet, because not everyone's does. It's the evolutionary mix, doh. Enough women keep playing tennis long enough, like a couple thousand years, they will on the whole become as good at it as men, I figure.
I think after feminism freed some of the nurture things up, the pendulum has swung too far overemphazing the role nurture plays in some things. End up making people feel guilty for following their bliss, for following that which they are best at simply because they have the natural skills to excel doing it. That's a moral issue with me, I think it's not fair to make current people the guinea pigs for a more equal sexual world far in the future due to evolution. If that happens naturally, it was meant to be.
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 8:27am
P.S. I can't tell you how much I loathe the whole "believe it and work at it hard enough and everyone can be a champion" thing that a lot of sports sell. I think it has caused a lot of pain, suffering and death. It has personally caused all three to to more than one person dear to me, before their time.Transferring this ethos to the business world is causing the same every day. Makes some not care about the handicapped and their expensive health care, for example.
Women as a whole have a handicap at tennis. So what? Isn't it good enough that some rare women do not that one should not rule out that they could do it?
Get back to me on this when all the feminist protests we are seeing (sarcasm intended) for the NFL to have gender equity on their teams bear fruit. I'll be open to changing my mind then.
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 8:39am
Yes, I'm pointing to the nature vs. nurture contest, along with a major shift in how we determine who's adequate for what activity, and of course the shift to a more service economy changes the needed skill sets. And then there's the question whether our supposed new-found prosperity will do more than get us more junk, will allow us to better pick activities that motivate us and that we enjoy, or will just better pigeon-hole us into unlikeable but ultimately efficient McJobs. A lot of thoughts & concerns packed into one In The News tidbit.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 9:33am
Just a brief interjection: Nice back and forth you two!
More please!
by Obey on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 9:43am
Let me be blatant on the nature thing: while something like skin color is a ridiculously eeny teeny miniscule indicator of what's going on in someone's whole body including their mind and skills--basically useless information--gender is not. Because we have just intuition to go on with the latter because it is so complex and we have only begun to understand it.
I'm here: makes no sense to force the little boy to continue to play with dolls if he really really doesn't want to anymore. At a certain point, even if it's the environmental influence, you aren't going to get good effects. Unless he's going to be living in a bubble. It's like not letting the kids use internet or watch teevee ever and then expecting them to go out in the world and survive.
Interesting side note just discovered by surfing, on tennis and nature or nurture, from Wikipedia, my underlining: Billie Jean's younger brother Randy Moffitt grew up to become a professional baseball player, pitching for 12 years in the major leagues for the San Francisco Giants, Houston Astros, and Toronto Blue Jays.[138] The more female recipient of that particular gene pool ends up using that arm-boosting whatever-it-is to greater gain and glory.... but was the competitive thing nature or nuture, ah that's the more interesting question
Edit to: change "female" to "more female". An important edit, I think.
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 10:25am
Yeah, I tried that more gender-neutral way of child rearing - failed magnificently.
Your comment about skin color reminded me of Chris Rock on #BlueLivesMatter - "shit, that's just a uniform - sure, let me take this black off in a second..." But yes, it's mostly internal, whereas being female is extremely complex both hormonal/physicological & externally/culturally. I saw some analysis of Silence of the Lambs on its anniversary, and the whole vibe of woman genetically programmed and/or societally expected to be stared/glared at, which Demme pumped up to psychotic 11 with the night goggles. And then there was a female somewhat hilariously/bizarrely directing American Psycho as one of the most misogynistic renderings possible of a misogynistic book - but is it? Maybe the film's farcical nature helps reverse it - but then again, if a tree falls in the woods and no one notices....
And then there was the acid attack on the woman in London yesterday - more reminiscent of what happens in India or the Mideast, still strange.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 10:30am
On women in combat.
Watch this recent BBC video from Raqqa to see a Kurdish female soldier actually aglow about her newfound love of killing people that she believes are her enemy. She's fairly feminine in appearance. She basically tells the reporter that she's found her bliss, her mission in life.
We don't really know what makes people "good" at this. Recruiters in the past wanted brawn because they needed brawn to tote that barge. They mostly don't need that anymore. I'm thinking agility and quickness and ability to be calm and rational under fire might be key these days if you are going to have a lot of urban fighting.
I just posted this story on In The News that too much of a single hormone, testosterone, commonly found in higher amounts in men than in women, though women's bodies need it too, seems to make for poor judgment of risk and rash decision making. We are only now just learning this because lots of men are taking it as they age and as levels drop, for supposed increased stamina, stopping muscle loss of aging, etc.
We don't know what else it does. Because: it alters the whole hormonal system, and no doubt effects on individuals will vary. Andrew Sullivan wrote famously about the physical, emotional and intellectual effects on him of supplemental testosterone in a relatively short amount of time in a 2000 NYT Magazine piece "The He Hormone."
Whatever else it does, too much testosterone clearly not good for a sniper.
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 9:10am
Testosterone? Too much exercise on the brain. In the good ol' days, a few lines of coke or a tab of acid were all that was needed to tame any combat or Wall Street imbroglio. Now everyone has to hit the treadmill like rats in a cheese factory. Andrew should have known - if these hormones and gym activity did the trick, The Village People would have been the best insider traders ever.
Probably this can be found in Kahnemann somewhere - the better you feel, the more right you think you are. People with more money tend to feel better, thus are bigger over-confident assholes - it's a vicious climb up, whether that career ladder or fitness stair stepper. If we could quit all this exercise and hunting down money.... hey, what about cafe society?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 9:23am
er, Acute and chronic cocaine administration has been reported to change endocrine and neurochemical functions in animals and human drug abusers..... Using a double-blind, randomized study design, luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), prolactin and testosterone levels were measured in 12 healthy men before and after intranasal administration of 2 mg/kg cocaine or placebo. Each subject was studied twice, serving as his own control. Compared to placebo, both luteinizing hormone, and, to a lesser degree, follicle-stimulating hormone levels increased significantly after cocaine, reaching a peak value 60 min after the administration of the study drug ...
not to mention
Cocaine Affects Men and Women Differently, NIDA Study Shows
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 1:17pm
oh and this one just for fun, according to bodybuilding forums, it apparently can turn you into a skinny bitch with low T
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 1:35pm
Skinny bitch? You mean Skinny Puppy?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 1:33pm
Guess I'll try that Placebo thing you keep mentioning, if they're going to take me off my meds...
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 1:31pm
I was a bit surprised to see Serena concede the point. She serves with almost the same average speed as Federer. Found a more systematic study here, where many women aren't far from the men on their groundstroke speed. Some of the big hitters among the women average speeds significantly higher than, say, Federer. But then I note that Federer doesn't even make it into the top 50 biggest hitters. And then I take a closer look at the top twenty biggest hitters, and only one has won a major trophy (Wawrinka). Out of the top champions, actually Wawrinka is the only one who wins by outhitting the opponent. Federer wins by his variety of shots that prevents the other guy from getting into a rhythm. Murray wins by his very effective counterpunching tactics. Djokovic wins because he apparently has unnaturally flexible hips which means he can make turns that would explode most people's hip bones. And Nadal wins by his unnatural concentration that mentally crushes the opponent. Note that Wawrinka is the least successful of this bunch.
Among the women, the top players win by blowing the opposition off the court. The last technically adept champion was Justine Henin. And before her you have to go back to Martina Hingis. If you go back to Evert and Navratilova, there it was all about mental strength, finesse, agility, techical prowess and tactics. The women's game has become very much about pure strength, but the men's game went through that phase in the 90s and seems to have come out of it for now.
It's that mismatch that made Billy Jean King more competitive with the men of her day than today's top women can be. Serena can't beat the top professional men in pure power because in today's men's game everyone knows how to neuter the usual backcourt power player. Back in the 60s power was less central, and it was more about technique and tactics.
Anyway, different and more superficial discussion than the one you guys seem embarked on above, but thought I would put it out there.
by Obey on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 5:09am
Somewhat related:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/girls-football-team-aem-lleida-enter-boys-league-under-14-wins-it-spain-a7731881.html
Which reminds me of another point. Who you are practicing and playing against determines your level as well. Back in the day I used to play competitive sunday league football in Scotland. We managed to get the governing body to allow an American woman to play in our team, since she had experience playing for a top US college. For the first six months she basically got blown off her feet every game, and wasn't much of an asset. But by the latter half of the season, she had managed to adjust to the more physical men's game and became the team's main playmaker. Sadly, by then half the team was in love with her and couldn't concentrate during games.
by Obey on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 5:23am
Don't know if a superficial way of looking at things - I'm impressed with the multiplicity we can analyze with, some more important in the end-run than others.
Now, if we used a Nate Silver analysis like MoneyBall 2.0 where we took existing scouting and then ran it through key stats to augment what scouts' gut-trained instinct tells us, we should expect predictions much more accurate than scouting or stats alone. We also might find a set of characteristics that would eliminate most women, or some matchups where they fared better and others where they fared worse.
In a military setting, we might be able to identify complementary skills where women fill a troop's needs for x, y & z, while men handle q,r & s better. We might find men are better suited to 90% of the roles, or that women can handle or are better suited for 90%, or a gradation that might look like a typical Star Trek crew. But *would we accept the results if not so PC?*
The Leaderboard ref above tends to point to 1 skill, forehand speed. There's also height/reach, power in serve, speed to chase the ball, reaction times, pivot/reverse speed, typical peripheral vision, etc as physical markers, along with undetermined psychological, strategy, training, & other factos. A few % advantage in several physical categories might determine a largely unbeatable advantage (as my original article stated) or a surmountable advantage (as you seem to posit).
The double bell curve shown above seems close and benign, but the overall spread once multiple factors are taken into account might be much larger (and thus much more discriminatory as well).
If we talk about military, we're referring to much larger teams needed even in 1 battalion than the total pool of professional tennis players male & female. So where women (or other category) might be completely uncompetitive in a particular male sports league, the total participation/competitive rate in a larger activity would likely be much higher. Beating 99.9% of all men in a tiny selective sport is irrelevant; beating 99.9% of all men in a pool of a million draftees is significant.
Again, what interests me most in all this is that we're more and more able to measure these things and draw different conclusions than we might have 20 years ago. What is my overall productivity & utility as a 20-year-old, 30-year-old, 40-year-old,.... and what would a wise employer be able to do with this info in terms of hiring/firing, tasking, etc. vs the competition/overall pool of contenders? These kinds of actuarial tables were once the bastion of insurance companies, but companies are using them in "Internet of Things" (IoT) to ascertain field failure & maintenance probabilities for equipment and components, and with the right medical devices & sensors, the same can be done for people. In an age when contracts vs full-time employment is on the rise, the trend towards hedging your bets with lower cost, expendable labor will rise.
Sure, it's inexact and somewhat an art, but like the chance of a smoker getting lung cancer or needing glasses, a particular age group is likely to show X% slowdown in a particular function after age Y. What will that mean for HR planning - will we codify some of these changes, or prevent them from being used, or in other ways incorporate or reject them? These will be significantly different between physically demanding and mentally demanding work, but can also be more fine-tuned, converting "stereotypes" into "statistical likelihoods". Are we ready for that?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 7:44am
Are we ready for that? I see more knowledge as benign or beneficial. In particular replacing our prejudices with actual science about who is most suited for what tasks seems like a great thing. I know in my little corner of the job-world I have learned to not trust my 'gut instinct' and work in accordance with best practices. I haven't seen much work on cognitive decline being applied by HR departments. A lot of half-baked work on personality types is broadly used on the other hand leading to building teams of complementary personality types more than seeking homogeneity (so for instance in our research teams here, combining strategic thinkers with analytical thinkers and activator-implementers). It seems like progress of sorts, at least going by my anecdotal evidence.
I think the danger could be to work with "statistical likelihoods", correlations, that are too weak or do not take into consideration causal factors that could disrupt/remove the correlation. So say gender-based psychological differences should perhaps not be used in making HR decisions since they are only weakly (say 60-40) correlated with gender, and we can often just establish the psychological profile of the candidate his- or herself instead of going by gender. Same with your worry about military roles. Just base decisions on the desired skill/profile, rather than worrying about gender-quotas. I think more consideration of work on cognitive decline can only help. it can hardly do much worse than confirm the widespread ageism in the job market. I do think where gender-bias barriers need to be broken, like in the military or in academia, leaning hard towards preferring more women is warranted whatever the statistics say. We can sort out the optimal quotas later.
by Obey on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 9:01am
As an obvious retort, pure science on man-made global warming has turned into a minefield - spouting facts in that type environment can better spur a food fight than a sane, scientific discussion.
"desired skill/profile" - well, that assumes we know what it is. Team building is largely still in its infancy, and part of what I'm suggesting is the more in-depth personal and group analytics may help *define* and *evolve* group performance and understanding - if it's not too discriminatory to use. Optimizing performance can be a sharp razor.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 9:12am
Sure, like I said "half-baked". But doing my own little poke-test on some of the research in this field, I haven't come across anything that feels like it can be used in the direction of greater discrimination along gender or racial lines, say. You have any particular results in mind?
by Obey on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 9:21am
Nothing in mind - simply that cultural/racial use is an electric 3rd rail, and gender use is a tricky minefield. Even if it's useful doesn't mean we can safely use it. And in a society that can't agree on say "police killing black people in large numbers means something awry, even if some of those people committed crimes" makes me shy from the reasonable.
For 20+ years, we've had the means to make abortions much safer, more humane, much easier to administer in early stages (even with the morning-after variant, even *before* the common definition of abortion), and yet we've gone the opposite direction, making it harder to get to, trying to criminalize it, making late-term abortions more likely, etc.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 9:27am
Does McEnroe have a book or other project in the works? His comment seems calculated.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/john-mcenroe-apology-serena-williams...
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 11:59am
Everybody's got a goddamn book or web page or twitter teed to tease these days. No one looks at or eats anything without taking a fucking selfie to prove they were there. Yeah, McEnroe's going on the TV circuit - it's not to discuss serving techniques or dangers of grass court pesticides - has to be some money angle to get him out of his mansion. In case anyone's forgot, McEnroe was always the biggest asshole on court and off. I just used his comment to riff on some ideas I had - and while maybe even Williams does believe what he says or doesn't, she's probably in no mood for a twitter tempest as she's busy preparing to drop + her next nude/fashion photoshoot, which is plenty lucrative without McEnroe's distractions.
Meanwhile, most of the world can't afford court fees and have children without the benefits of Reddit and Instagram and suffer through the skimping wearying dogfood days of retirement with almost 0 appearances on CBS.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 12:25pm
Coffee's kicking in, eh?
But yes, McEnroe is an asshole, trolling to start a fight again about equal pay for women's tennis. Like saying Joshua v Fury should have a bigger purse than Pacquiao v Mayweather.
by Obey on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 12:32pm
Seconal drip, but thanks for your concern - should turn ugly any moment.
[or maybe this is what vacations do to me - Chevy Chase be warned]
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 12:50pm
Serena is concentrating on her pregnancy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/serena-williams-john-mcenroe_us_5951...
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 12:35pm
And her photo-op. Her business, but whether Kim Kardashian or Beyonce or Serena or Princess Kate, I simply don't care for media pregnancies.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 12:50pm
Estrogen is a very fine hormone, though, see? Helps perpetuate the species among other things....
by artappraiser on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 1:40pm
Fine indeed, though I get my estrogen fix externally - you might call it an estrogen patch. Don't know if it absorbs rubbing on that way, but if ineffective I can always go back and reapply until does the trick.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/27/2017 - 2:36pm