MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
The key role played by three agencies, Ap, AFP, and Reuters, means Western media often report on the same topics, even using the same wording. In addition, governments, military and intelligence services use these global news agencies as multipliers to spread their messages around the world.
Comments
The Media Navigator classifies more than 70 news outlets based on their political stance and their relationship to power. In many cases, the latter is more significant.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 06/05/2019 - 12:51pm
Wow, you got us - people had hidden AP and Reuters in plain sight - how'd they do that?
Of course not a mention of the multilevel news process - you know, where details are compiled from various sources?
But glad you revealed this - all those decades wondering what these acronyms could possibly be, especially UPI.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 06/05/2019 - 1:54pm
I don't get the purpose of the exercise.
News reports, which most have traditionally used the wires for, are just news, as in: what just happened, what did you see happen, what did people say, etc. Basic facts about activities, wherever. Cop cars here, guns shooting there, what the protestors did, who died, how many soldiers, what was the spin at the press conference, etc.
Nowadays, basically as johnny come latelies and therefore not so successfully, the wires also try their hand at other things to compete and also produce other kinds of journalism: analysis, investigative research, and op-eds.
There has never been anyone stopping anyone else from flocking to the places where A.P., Reuters and AFP go and checking out and "developing" stories. They were the only ones willing to spend the dough and survive having a Tom Dick Harry & Jill allover the world ready to report if something happened. Everyone else wanted to do something else.
Until everyone had a camera in their pocket that was "wired" with the world at large. So the wires are becoming obsolete rather quickly and have to alter what they do, Joe Schmo subway rider can report on Twitter what just happened faster than their reporter can 'file" a story. So what's the point kvetching about them? They are now just another content producer.
by artappraiser on Wed, 06/05/2019 - 7:40pm
I cannot imagine how, if you read the article, you could miss the purpose of the "exercise".
The purpose is to expand on the above paragraph, demonstrate why it is true, and explain some of the many ways that affects the news.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 06/05/2019 - 8:46pm
My point is that their model is dying. News is broken on social media. Reporters of MSM now scour social media more than use the wires. Any repetition of coverage and terminology is mostly by media that has no reportorial staff and little other staff, that pay for subscription to produce almost all their content because they have no staff to create content. Like U.S.A. Today or your local paper that is still hanging on by a thread.
Don't you get the idea that what's "trending" is far more powerful now than the wires on what gets covered? It's capitalist totally: if the content is popular, if it "sells", then more is written on it.
by artappraiser on Wed, 06/05/2019 - 8:54pm
The old model media may be dying but it aint dead yet. At least that is the argument of the study and they argue it well. They show how these few services have overwhelming influence on what goes into so much newspaper reporting and extends to radio and television. They point out how important it can be when the services do not report something. I am not surprised that you do not see any significance in what the study asserts or concludes but is there anything about the construction of their argument or the evidence that they produce that you disagree with?
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 06/05/2019 - 10:08pm
In the Jurassic era, we had ABC, NBC, and CBS. I now have access to much larger range of news sources. I have access to stories that are important but not carried by the majority of MSM. I think that a larger number of people have access to a more diverse array of news than any time in the past.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 06/05/2019 - 11:02pm
These are called "newsfeeds", Lulu - UPI's out of business, other feeds scrape along, Reuters tries to do more financial news and services to survive, AP does better in sports services,, AFP reflects a French twist, Gannett and McClatchy offered more local news esp in the US that's hard to survive on, there are military outlets that sometimes use the AP/Reuters/AFP but also contribute their own stories, same with the VOA/BBC/Al Jazeeras, and then there's the pure spin/propaganda outlets like RT.
Of course there's a world of stringers out there contributing stories for a nickel to whichever news service will take them, both hard news and local color like travel, culture... pehaps there's a deep state mechanism denying these stringers access to any reputable news org, so then they self-publish on... Consortium?
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/06/2019 - 1:33am
Here is a simple challenge. It is a chance to show you can read and understand and then respond intelligently and on point. Try to say something of substance that relates to the thesis [ A statement or theory that is put forward as a premise to be maintained or proved] of this article?
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 06/06/2019 - 9:37am
Yes, Lulu, you've discovered agency feeds, something I've known for about 35 years. Yes, there's a paucity of completely independent news sources, but it's not just because there are 3 big ones left, nor is it as bad as the article implies, for reasons I suggested, plus the ability of internet publishing to augment where there's free internet (not Russia, btw)
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/06/2019 - 12:47pm
You're not getting what we are saying. The article is complaining about a situation that is rapidly becoming history. It's based on reports (quoted under Introduction: “Something strange”) written in 1977, 1995, 2007 and 2013.
Simple numbers show the decline of influence: A. P. no longer has 4,000 employees, it has 3,200. Agence France Presse: no longer 4,000, but 2,400. It is hard to figure out how many employees Reuters Group has since its acquisition by Thomson, when it was not making money by producing news By the time of its acquisition by Thomson the bulk of Reuters Group's revenues came from the provision of financial market data, with news reporting comprising less than 10% of its turnover.[1]
It is still the situation that there are reporters who regurgitate rather than post original "boots on the ground" reports, i.e., from Beirut on Syria, but they increasingly no longer use the wires to do that, they use social media, scouring it for videos supposedly from boots on the ground or scuttlebutt from those who have connections and sources. This makes them subject to a totally different kind of propaganda! How well can they judge whether what they are looking at from a supposed citizen is from a real citizen or is a bot sponsored by a country or a citizen pushing an agenda about one country or group being evil and another being good.
This is extremely noticeable if you spend any time looking at a volatile situations like Pakistan vs. India or Ukraine v.s Russia on Twitter. There is much "faux news", much ideological spin disguised as breaking news. Reporters who a specialists in certain areas are the new vetters to explain what's actually going on in the social media "news" that is posted, whether its propaganda or not. The situation is this: if you are interested in getting the truth, best find an expert you trust to interpret everything being thrown on the web.Cherry picking for your preferred ideology is just going to get you propaganda.
What hasn't changed:most people aren't interested in foreign news! They don't like to eat spinach.So it's not profitable for someone to be an expert on like Africa outside of Africa. And it's not profitable to cover Africa is your market is not interested in it. If people have interest in foreign news, because, say, they are an immigrant and it is their home country, they now end up getting more partisan info. than they used to, just by the nature of the social media they chose and trust. This is actually fueling partisanship and nationalism and divisiveness. And bad actor bots paid by foreign governments are taking advantage. If it was once true what the article purports, that the wires control what gets covered and what people know about, it is simply no longer true. They control less every day.
Edit to add: the search function on twitter.com could be your friend in understanding how bad this has gotten. Pick a keyword about a volatile foreign subject and see for yourself how much propaganda is out there.
I would also like to add that publicly owned and funded outlets like BBC News never pandered to what the wires were covering but had their own correspondents. Neither did they make ratings a factor.Their job was to cover what their funders might need to know or might be interested in (in this case, the British people.) Even still, they often ended up covering the exact same things that the wires were covering, except they sent reporters to ground to figure out what was really going on.
by artappraiser on Thu, 06/06/2019 - 1:19pm
Nice write-up. 1 note I'd make is that BBC probably uses the agency feeds as part of many of its stories, but still has an extensive network of reporters - employees and stringers - to create their own output or give it that Beeb sheen. I think they also have a coopetition relationship with ITN(ITV) for stories within Britain. But BBC World Service has been forced to cut costs, as has Al Jazeera, et al, so I imagine the usual effects of belt tightening for the news are hitting the quality, fact-checking, level of expertise of individual reporters, etc.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/06/2019 - 3:08pm
To repeat, the posted article is
The article itself was initially written in 2016 based on those old reports. It was then supposedly updated in 2019. Obviously, the author invested a lot of time 2013-2016 reading all that (mostly already quite old) analysis and making up charts and stuff. Meantime, the world of news gathering was rapidly changing. And now he/she is finding it hard to admit that his/her work is all just a study of history, what once was.And that things have changed. After all, he/she wants clicks too, and verification of time and effort. But the last thing it is is news about the current state of news gathering. Rather it's: olds.
by artappraiser on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 2:05pm
BTW, I am sort of angry at myself that I fell for your challenge to PP and once again wasted a lot of time carefully reading something you posted that has an ancient agenda. For which I will no doubt not get a "thanks for your input" but an angry comment or two. In the end, the mystery for me is: why do you have so much passion about convincing others that the west is lying and their enemies have the truth and nothing has changed since Vietnam? And why do I sometimes fall for countering you when you decide to do that? There are far better ways to spend my time.
by artappraiser on Thu, 06/06/2019 - 1:26pm
You're not getting what we are saying.
Thanks for the input but you are wrong. I do get what you are saying, I just do not agree with much of it. That is how political discussions often go unless you have them inside of an echo chamber.
The article is complaining about a situation that is rapidly becoming history.
But it is not “history” yet even though other developing factors are, as you say, affecting how news is gathered, dispensed, and viewed in new ways too. If the newsfeeds were ever a significant factor, and I believe a strong case was made that they were in the way the study suggests, then they are still a significant factor. Google says AP provides news and graphics for 1700 newspapers worldwide, 1300 in the U.S. as of 2016. That aint nothing.
I think that expecting to get understanding of international situations from twitter posts is about equivalent to expecting to get the same from bumper stickers .
In the end, the mystery for me is: why do you have so much passion about convincing others that the west is lying ...
If taken literally you are accusing me of believing everything, rather than the particulars to which I have made that charge, put out by “the west” is a lie, which is not true, so I ask you: Why do you believe that this time, for the first time in our adult lives, that everything the west tells you is the truth. And why are you so passionate about convincing others that that is true because now everything has changed and then accuse me of being naive and uninformed and living in the past because I believe that some things have not changed at all. What the hell, even the cast of characters running or pushing for the mayhem of the last twenty/thirty years of international fuckups has remained largely the same and so have their goals and also their tactics for the most part.
It is ironically funny that you are angry, a form of passion, because you spent time carefully reading an installment to “In the News” [to which the strongest endorsement I gave was to say they made a strong case] carefully so you could figure out how to disagree and then because you didn’t change my mind it was all a frustrating, maddening waste of your time.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 10:37am
The disconnect may be that many saw MSM act as promoters of Trump in 2016. The Trump campaign was literally a series of promotional videos promoted by multiple news sources. I don’t think many are surprised by the findings in the study. Many already internalized that you could not accept MSM data without doing some fact checking.
Trump reads from a TelePrompTer using words he didn’t write. Figures like Van Jones and Joe Scarborough point to his ability to read a script and say that Trump has become “Presidential”. Most laugh and cry at the same time in response to MSM. We agree that the public is ill-informed.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 11:12am
So you won't commit but "they make a strong case" - of what? What is the conclusion you hoped we would reach? What is the action or new mindset you hope we will take?
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 11:42am
I think that expecting to get understanding of international situations from twitter posts is about equivalent to expecting to get the same from bumper stickers .
You're mixing apples and oranges, talking about analysis, not news reporting, not "breaking." The wires traditionally were reporting breaking news and left the analysis and op-ed up to their subscribers. That past model is when what they decided to cover colored what everyone else decided to cover and therefore they had power to affect what got covered. But that model is over!
They moved some into analysis and op-ed when the market for their news started to shrink, in order to compete with and substitute for offerings from their subscribers, who were also losing manpower due to lack of income from paper advertising. The need for getting a wire reporter's view of "what happened" after the fact started to shrink when on venues like Twitter, when a plane goes down or someone is shot or there is a bombing or a fire, there is someone who was there and has taken and uploaded a video. You don't understand how what reporters are doing has changed. They are searching places like Twitter for "breaking".
In addition, the remaining on the ground reporters have started the habit of posting bits and pieces of a story as n social media, as they learn them, i.e., Senator so-and-so just came out of the meeting and said such-and-such in the hall, they do not wait to put context around it in a full story. There's no there there to the contention that they control what's being covered! The masses are not even looking at their content anymore! Nobody's buying USA Today. Most chose a home page feed like Yahoo or MSN or Twitter or Facebook or whatever and that's where they get their "news" looking at their phone. Reuters.com is not a popular home page.
by artappraiser on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 1:06pm
To put it bluntly: the big point of the article you cite is faulty in a major way. The problem now is not that a few outlets are controlling what is news, but the opposite, that there are a huge and growing number of sources, that no one is controlling it in the role of gatekeepers about "what the public needs to know", and a growing number of entities and groups are trying to manipulate that situation in a demagogic manner. Rmrd's comment is apt: compare the world of 3 television networks. That was also the world where the wires fed all the local delivered-to-your-doorstep-every-morning papers (who never could afford international reporters) their international news. That world is gone. There is no control. The propaganda is served up by whoever has the time and talent to manipulate a situation and get a lot of "followers" and make things go "viral". People interested in getting truth on any matter now follow experts who are vetting and sorting the massive input on any topic as to whether or not that video or whatever is altered or presents an accurate portrayal of any situation.
by artappraiser on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 1:43pm
Good posts Arta. Lulu's view of the media and American foreign policy especially in South America is fueled by the 60's understanding he greww up with. It's history, Reagan's and previous generations support of right wing militias and strong men dictators. Oliver North and the conflict with the Sandinistas. A few decades ago his complaints had some relevance but the world has changed and the problems we face are different. The media environment has changed so much from the three major news networks and the wire services.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 3:26pm
Even the free papers the hand out in the metro or grocery stores have trouble keeping up circulation. It's amazing what % of the population gets its news from Facebook.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 4:03pm
I would not be surprised, tho, to be told Facebook is losing influence, and just out of laziness...I suspect as people get new phones, they pick a news app or two and then never change it and that's all they see besides TV news from time to time. I see that there's all kinds of sites for potential advertisers so they can fiddle with the stats on the popularity of news apps, like this one. But I've not been easily able to find something like independent Neilsen ratings for "most popular news apps"...maybe I'm just googling wrong. I do think most people have heard that Facebook has too much propaganda, and it's becoming less popular all the time. Though people would still trust friends and family on there when they probably shouldn't always.
One thing I guess is the same situation: it's a huge audience that prefers news about entertainment and celebs, i.e., the TV equivalent "Entertainment Tonight". And they can even more easily leave other news behind, which so many say they find "depressing", they can filter it out more every day.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 9:41pm
p.s. even on Twitter, entertainment news is king. This one I just ran across addresses everything that's "trending" in the U.S.: I looked away from twitter just for a second and Justin Bieber wants to fight Tom Cruise, Meryl Streep has won all of next years awards, and David Ortiz got shot? This is the kind of stuff I see people looking at on their cell phones when I sneak a peak in like the doctor's waiting room.
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 5:54am
You have invested some time and effort in making your case and you have done it well. The problem I have with your treatment is that you make the very common mistake of going too far with your conclusions. You agree that the Newsfeeds were very influential at one time.
For whatever time period you agree that that was the case I think you describe the situation well. Just like the article did. The significant description you get right is "they had the power to affect what got covered. You do not say "control" at this point which would be a significant distortion of the reality that existed. You correctly say they had an affect. You then assert: "... but that model is over!", with an exclamation point for emphasis. So on this we will have to agree to disagree. While the old model might be a lesser influence, I do not agree that it is 'over' or "dead" as you have stated.
The overwhelming majority of those 1300 newspapers that buy news from AP must be quite small. My local paper is an example. It covers and publishes local news and sports and buys [I assume] its few national and international news reports. An average reader of whom I agree is as disinterested in international affairs as you claim cannot get to the sports page without passing a headline based on an AP or other newsfeed dispatch, for instance, that says, "Assad Gasses Innocent Civilians". That person will likely never have an informed opinion on that subject but he/she will have a strong opinion.
I agree mostly with you description of the affect of social media as you describe it but again you go way too far in negating the "old model" with your very confident but unattributed assertion that the old model with its old influence is dead. "Control" and "influence" are on the same spectrum but are still distinctly different." and besides, nobody even suggested that the newsfeed control the news but only that they strongly influence what gets reported. This site lists USA Today as number three in circulation with a combined print and online circulation of 7,000,000 a day. Here, skipping all the way to the number 100 paper in circulation, The East Valley Tribune (Mesa, AZ) is shown to have a daily circulation of 99,711. Add in the other 98 and it becomes obvious that the combined total figures aint nothin'. And, that is just one hundred out of 1300. Apparently a hell of a lot of people are at least skimming old model publications looking for something to read even if most of what they read about international news, which as you say most don't give a flip about, is the headline they see as they go looking for the sports page or fashion section and that headline, you can bet, is just a similar version of headlines that appear in virtually all of the 1300 that do not do their own reporting. And, you can also bet that those headlines alone have influence just like the tweets that lack any more journalistically reported contend than do those tweets.
No, probably not. I don't know its numbers and I wouldn't try to guess what number would qualify it as popular but millions of people read stories or headlines or tweets that originate from Reuters reporting every single day. There are some you linked to here at dag today and that apparently influenced you enough to pass them on to the rest of us.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 06/08/2019 - 1:50pm
Again, is there a point besides "I just discovered newsfeeds and you should be truly scared"?
Are these news agencies doing a good or bad job? Should they broken up as a monopoly?
Are they in league with the Devil?
Agencies have been around since forever - the Associated Press was founded in 1846, Reuters in 1851, AFP in 1835.
Facebook & Google by contrast have been around 20 years or less, and have much more documented abuse of data and distortion of news to account for (including helping to throw elections by virtue of unscrupulous behavior).
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 06/08/2019 - 2:36pm
The writeup of the study makes its own point if that is what you are wondering about. There is no reason for me rewrite it for you, even in translation the things it says come across pretty clearly. You can still opt to read the original for yourself and I think if you tried you could understand for yourself. My point in posting it is the same as any posting of an item to "In the News", to supply fodder for thought. My point in the comment here is to respond to AA who went to the effort to say what she disagreed with about the study and for me to say what I disagree with about her analysis. It's all right there above.
I do not recall reading in the study any charge that AP and the other agencies deliberately abuse data or deliberately distort the news to mislead the public but that they can be and are an important channel for news that is often manipulated by others. Those agencies are what they are whether or not other entities like Google and Facebook have worse records. But do the newsfeed agencies get manipulated and used wrongly? From the study this is all about:
I am convinced that this abuse still goes on even though social media has opened up additional channels for planting and widely distributing disinformation.
Off topic. I think as an administrator you are able to see how many discreet log-ons there are to dag each day. If so, would you publish that daily count or average. Thanks in advance.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 06/08/2019 - 5:09pm
1) Nowhere does it mention "stringers", the freelancers who augment a news force in places where news orgs can't justify fulltime employees. Often stringers will pitch their own stories which may or may not be picked up - by news agencies or publications themselves.
2) Fred Bridgland sounds like a raving idiot - of course we've known overtly since Vietnam and in fact WWII that the military will feed bullshit propaganda to the journalists - in WWII it was a bit more justified to print the propaganda (the world danger was much worse and the cause was so much better, and if Macie & Pauline on the homefront got the story a bit different from what was really going on, no big harm vs.need to keep morale up & the war effort moving. Vietnam, well, we had major scandals when reporters & think tank analysts started realizing what a load of shit the govt was feeding them. So whywas Bridgland so obliging & naïve? (btw, he's accused of being an apologist for Savimbi). And yeah, the term "Yellow Journalism" was invented for the 1898 Spanish-American War, where we know news orgs themselves can push the line and help create a line of fiction to rush into war - and we know Judith Miller uncritically published White House propaganda as "news" in going to war in Iraq - though wait, neither of those cases were news agencies - it was Hearst Newspapers & the New York Times..
3) Similarly from the days of Hunter Thompson (The Great Shark Hunt, Fear and Loathing..) we have the reputation of journalists sitting around the pool lazily filing stories and then going back to their martinis - only a few braving the jungles or deserts where the action's taking place. Of course this is a bit stylized and caricature - there were & are plenty of journalists who fight to dig out real stories despite the odds - not everyone's hacking ether with tequila.
So yes, as AA noted, the antidote is to find media channels you trust and work off them to try to verify the most truthful accounts, and hope they're not digging too much from the same well. (I noted just today I read Emptywheel & Seth Abramson feeds, and they seem to hate each other, so I can pretty well be sure they're giving me independent takes on the Trump scandals).
[re: Dag's traffic, don't really feel like digging into it - might depress myself or possibly surprise, and it is what it is - either the stories & comments are worth it or they aren't. I think we keep a pretty diverse thread going, even if not enough self-written pieces these days.]
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 06/08/2019 - 5:50pm
Altogether your comments form an argument that one significant cause within a complex system of causes and effect can be ruled out as a cause because there are also other causes. Brilliant. Most of the rest of your comment here is a free-association string-of-consciousness which in this context makes it nonsense. I love your advice at the end though.
I have gone to Emptywheel fairly often and I have watched her on youtube quite a few interviews with her, or times when she was on an MSNBC panel or in similar mode. She always impresses me. Seth Abramson is largely unknown to me but a real quick google scan gives me a good impression of his views as they developed and have been expressed over the last couple years. I’m not impressed with him but maybe if I had followed him from the beginning of Russiagate I would have been at the time. So, if you say he has a smart thumb on the pulse of his subject, well, OK. But here is a thing. Your personal example of using a couple trusted sources to inform your understanding [AA recommends that one is enough] were both very much more wrong on their obsessive Russiagate quest than they were right. Better luck next time. I follow the first two of these and a couple more.
Another thing about your example is that because they hate each other the mind meld you have made of their separate writings proves something is good about your choice of gurus.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 11:54am
ABSOLUETLY WRONG: [AA recommends that one is enough]
You're the one that doesn't know how to read.
Check what I've posted on the news thread for examples. On any one topic, you start with someone you trust and then you bounce around from there to find new people all the time. Constanty. And eventually weed out people that mislead, unless you want to keep up with what misleaders are up to. Or are a cherry picker for only wanting to read those who stick to a certain ideological basis, like you for example.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 4:41pm
Arta, I sure didn’t mean to make something up but I have looked back and I cannot justify saying what you are screaming "wrong" about. I apologize. Seriously. I Know how maddening it can be to be misrepresented.
Next this confused me for a moment.
Check what I've posted on the news thread for examples. On any one topic, you start with someone you trust and then you bounce around from there to find new people all the time. Constanty. And eventually weed out people that mislead, unless you want to keep up with what misleaders are up to. Or are a cherry picker for only wanting to read those who stick to a certain ideological basis, like you for example.
At “you start” I thought you were describing me and as I read on I thought; what the hell? I’m accused of exactly what I do and she thinks it is bad. A moment later though I realized it was actually instruction. I think. Correct me if I’m wrong.
A couple people come to mind that I have weeded out for the very reason you suggest are Kristol and Boot.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 9:09pm
Jesus, you do realize that shitty little parade of Russiagate gloaters was 2 months ago when Barr was still successfully covering up what the Mueller Report actually said, and Manafort wasn't in Rikers awaiting state charges yet, and Stone didn't have Miller testifying against him yet, and on and on...? #1, Aaaron Maté - how many times on Twitter has Marcy blasted him for getting facts totally wrong, and there he is full smirk with a sad-on that Glenn "me heart Putin" Greenwald no longer gets love from MSNBC?
Here's part of Mueller's public statement that you seem to be running away from preferring to parade in failed punditry & obfuscation from 2 months ago - Mueller explicitly says Russia interfered in the election, and notes that while per the Constitution he cannot charge Trump, if he felt he could have exonerated Trump of wrongdoing, he would have. He did not. Note that there is also an intelligence part that Mueller dealt with that has been farmed off to other jurisdictions, and no doubt we will see some of the results of that in due time, but it is much less public for obvious reasons.
Re: Abramson & Marcy Wheeler, no, you misinterpret me - many people hate Louie Mensch, and while I think she did *some* good in late 2016/early 2017, I think she's mostly whacko & discredited - thus mixing her with a credible news source would just create a mess. Similarly say Rachel & Sean Hannity - they dislike each other, him I consider a lying joke, her she's more accurate (but not completely) and a bit too cute & smug for my tastes - so again, sources that despise each other don't autmatically make for good neighbors.
From what I can tell, much of what Abramson says seems to be valid, but Marcy & Bmaz think he's a crackpot, while the little he seems to have talked about her, he feels the same or just that she has little to offer. I have a feeling it's more about lawyer methods than about content, but maybe not (e.g. some disagreement whether the Steele Report is valid - Seth - or largely Russian disinfo - Marcy). That Cohen appears to have for sure not gone to Prague when Steele kind of suggested points to a possible failing or simply an unimportant misidentification - it seems likely *someone* from the Trump team was in Prague during that time, as many of Trump's team made funny trips to Italy, Greece, Budapest & London during the same period - not typically part of a US campaign tour.
So what I actually said or meant - and I've been reading Emptywheel for a decade, and didn't know their opinion of each other until perhaps 6 months ago - was that I think they both provide useful information, and because they're not parroting the same views nor the same sources it seems, I can use them a bit to calibrate my own thoughts & conclusions by trying to figure out why the divergence and which info might be wrong - whether completely or in some shade of meaning. But Marcy doesn't address Trump's meeting with Russians et al at the Mayflower Hotel as Seth has, and Seth has talked much more about the UAE/Nadler/Erik Prince vector, while Marcy has given a much better analysis of Mueller's team and what types of investigations & cases each has been working on, as an example of how their non-overlap creates a fuller picture. But nice try, I know it pains you to not catch me in an easy brainfart to scoff at.
Please do read that excerpt from Mueller's speech, and if time, the whole published (but redacted) Mueller Report - I know it'll take you away from valuable time reading Consortium and panting over Greenwald & other voices/blows against the Empire, but maybe if you read the report you'll find even MORE BETTER ways to Rage Against The Machine - think of it as finishing school - after all this years of partisan hate & selective parsing, this will show that indeed you *can* handle the truth and *still* be able to root for the Greenwalds of the world - I'm sure that would lower the level of worry that you must carry that something might penetrate the veil.
PS - the one person who didn't belong in the FAIR compilation of Russiagate jokesters was Esha Krishnaswamy whose only real complaint was that "collusion" isn't a legal term, so media should focus (as Mueller did to the limits of his mandate) on Trump's many actual defined acts of illegal behavior (something Marcy has noted over and over as well), though Esha - an actual lawyer - could have included "conspiracy" as a close but legally significant synonym for "collusion", along with the one she notes that Mueller did use, attempt to defraud the United States.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 4:51pm
This is about one angle of the new world of trying to affect what gets covered and what doesn't
by artappraiser on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 2:12pm
Meanwhile, elsewhere:
For China’s Leading Investigative Reporter, Enough Is Enough
Liu Wanyong has quit journalism. “News is not like news anymore,” he says.
By Jane Perlez @ NYTimes.com, 10h ago
by artappraiser on Fri, 06/07/2019 - 9:20pm
If it is true that AP, Reuters and AFP are in charge of what news gets covered, show with an example up close and personal:
How is this reflected in what gets posed on Dagblog.com "In The News" thread?
It does not.
Rmrd, for example, has at times been a one-man news and agitprop provider for all the news that he can find on "the black community" that agrees with his vision of what "the black community" suffers and needs to do. He doesn't give a shit what AP, Reuters and AFP are pushing. He's gonna push his thing. Likewise, Lulu will go to great lengths to post anything that he thinks proves the US hegemon is still meddling with the world same as always, whoever is in charge. He doesn't give a shit about AP, Reuters or AFP either.
This site is a very simple illustration of where we are at with "propaganda" and agenda use of news. AP, Reuters and AFP can't do a damn thing about it. There's a gazillion more out there.
Governments, though, will eventually be getting around to making social media giants like Facebook and Twitter do something about it .
China is way ahead of this game, already doing something about it to social media providers as comparatively as small as Dagblog.com. Same with countries like Saudi Arabia or Russia.
You are just so behind the times, Lulu, worrying about this kind of shit. It's over. Worry about what is actually going on. Things are being decided about what's going to go on in the future every single day. While you are railing at some past moon.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 4:54pm
P.S. Here ya go, the make-america-a-hegemon-again crowd is feeling victimized and ostracized and would like to be left alone to gather their own news and views of the world:
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 5:03pm
The "Shallow State" rises again.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 5:07pm
Perfect example: I saw this recent story of protesters being fired on in Sudan before I saw it by any regular news source. Some of the foreign policy bloggers/wonks/reporters I follow on Twitter were retweeting phone videos of the action by just ordinary people they knew or followed in Sudan. I don't trust that kind of thing, could be faked. I did a search on Twitter for "Sudan" so that I could find an actual news source that I knew would do two-source verification before publishing, or would at least put "breaking" cavaets in their piece. Turned out to be A.P. The wires are now slower than the people with phone cameras, because they have to do "trust but verify."
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 6:55pm
Your Richard Painter story on Kamala Harris links to CNN
My post on the Central Park Five links to the NYT, the Guardian, and The Root.
We all pick are likely to pick stories that reflect our POV. The book “Afropean” you linked to has happy stories and sad stories. You see hope in the happy stories,, I see that Europe still has a long way to go. Brexit suggests there is a great deal of xenophobia in Britain that is mainstreamed. Lulu distrusts media. CNN’s Jim Acosta has a book “Enemy of the People” detailing why it is hard to get the truth told in the Trump era. Yet, Acosta listened to a D-Day speech read off a TelePrompter by Trump and said that he looked “Presidential”. The Kindle version of “Afropean” was a good weekend read. I think reading Acosta would be a waste of time. We make choices. I’m more likely to see positive comments about Fukuyama and Appiah from you than any major pushback.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 6:52pm
We all pick are likely to pick stories that reflect our POV.
That's not true. Of course there are some who focus solely on stories that reflect their pov. But surely not nearly all. I certainly don't and I don't think Arta does either. I make it a point to read every article by George Will, Max Boot, even David Brooks and other conservative voices. Perhaps a significant minority restrict their reading to those who agree with them but I think most readers read from diverse sources.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 7:38pm
Will, Boot, and Painter were on board with the GOP agenda until Trump came along and said what the GOP agenda was out in public. They are making sense now because they have come to their senses and there quotes are taken seriously. Jennifer Rubin has undergone a similar transformation. David Brooks is going through an existential crisis following a divorce, so he has mellowed out. As I noted we are more likely to see pro-Fukuyama articles than we are criticisms of Fukuyama.
I will take a look at Candace Owens, and the others above, but find little of interest and rarely anything factual with Owens. The Painter commentary on the conviction in Minneapolis is interesting because the argument is valid. Owens has a nonsensical take on the Central Park Five situation. Kathleen.Parker in the WaPo argues that taxpayers should have to pay for providing abortions to poor women. We may read wingnuts, but most of the time we don’t agree and many times ignore or ridicule their comments.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 11:40pm
pretty sure Oceankat was reading them long before Trump was on the political scene.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 2:32am
They were sources of ridicule. They were in the same class as Limbaugh and Coulter. You listened to snippets of Limbaugh and Coulter to get a good laugh. Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, along with Diamond & Silk are sideshow acts.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 7:24am
George Will is hardly Tucker Carlson, nor is David Brooks. Don't know Max Boot.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 7:35am
Will called Obama an adolescent President.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-barack-obama-the-adolescent-president/2014/04/23/a835f872-ca3e-11e3-a75e-463587891b57_story.html?utm_term=.2316e49a8842
Faced with the reality of Trump, Will talks about the studied elegance of Trump.
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2019/01/06/george-f-will-todays/
Will is more palatable now.
We laugh at Hugh Hewitt, etc.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 9:30am
Can't access either, but i'm sure you can find something to be outraged as usual
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 10:19am
No outrage, simply stating a fact. Will et.al. were considered wingnuts until they realized that Trump was a danger. Now after creating outlets for Republican obstructionism, they whine about the end product under Trump. Liberals/ Progressives read them, but it was to solidify why you believed what you believed and document the insanity on the Republican side of the aisle. Their space is now filled by people like Hugh Hewitt in the WaPo and Rick Santorum on CNN.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 11:47am
It's not a fact just as your claim that " We all are likely to pick stories that reflect our POV," is not a fact. Will, Brooks, etc. have always been considered respectable conservative journalists. For decades, long before the Trump election. They have always been in a different class than Limbaugh, Coulter, Yiannopoulous, Alex Jones types. It's no surprise to me that you only read stories the reflect your point of view but I stand by my opinion that most readers of the news pick stories from a more diverse spectrum. At the very least it's clear most people here read much more widely from many sources across the political spectrum.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 12:10pm
I think I’ve read more George Will then you have. Will used his columns to deny climate science. I don’t consider that something that a well-respected person would do.
https://foe.org/2009-02-george-will-uses-washington-post-column-to-lie-about/
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 12:45pm
Jeez what a fucking idiot you are. My point was not that I agree with conservative writers but that your claim that, " We all pick are likely to pick stories that reflect our POV, " is nonsense. As is your claim that " Will et.al. were considered wingnuts until they realized that Trump was a danger." Worse yet in your complete and total descent into ignorant babble you claim these opinions are, " simply stating a fact."
I think I’ve read more George Will then you have.
Then what was your point when you posted, "We all pick are likely to pick stories that reflect our POV." you condescending asshole? Everyone but you is likely to pick stories that reflect our POV? You need to educate yourself on the proper meaning and use of the pronouns "we" and "our."
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 1:16pm
The expected response. You said that George Will was “well respected”. I provided a link to his climate science denial. You follow with a personal attack rant.
When Will was quoted by Progressives prior to his more recent anti-Trump stance, it was specifically to criticize him for climate science denial and other issues. Now he gets quoted as a voice of reason.
When I say that I’ve read more George Will than you have, it was based on things like climate denial, I would not have given him the label “well respected”.
Will also “whitewashed” the racism of the Strom Thurmond and George Wallace campaigns in his WaPo column.
https://www.mediamatters.org/blog/2013/10/24/george-will-whitewashes-racism-from-pro-segrega/196578
I don’t consider George Will “well respected “.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 2:02pm
Respect & agreement are different areas.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 2:22pm
I don’t consider George Will “well respected “.
In addition to educating yourself on the proper definition and use of pronouns like "we" and "our" you also need to educate yourself on reading comprehension and the proper use of quotation marks since I never posted that Will was "well respected." I feel like I'm a high school teacher dealing with a slow tenth grader.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 2:52pm
Will, Brooks, etc. have always been considered respectable conservative journalists.
Webster Dictionary
Respectable(adj)
worthy of respect; fitted to awaken esteem; deserving regard;
2. esteemed
(adjective)
You use esteemed to describe someone who you greatly admire and respect.
Again this is just a diversion from your comment about the steamed George Will
before anti-Trump, Will was just another wingnut
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 3:20pm
You've discovered how to use a dictionary. That's a step in the right direction. You can use it to learn the definition of "we" and "our" and learn how to properly use them in sentences. You also need to understand that forming an opinion and summarizing what a person said is not a quote and quotation marks should not be used. Quotation marks are not used even if you believe you can defend your summary with a dictionary. It's a shame you didn't learn this in high school but the quality of public education isn't what one would hope it would be.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 4:23pm
Will at his core his still a wingnut. Right now, he is anti-Trump, so he is useful in that he can do a small bit to help Democrats. In his latest book, he makes clear that he is a Conservative, but can’t stand Trump.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 4:38pm
So you basically are saying you don't like the WaPo, NYTimes and CNN model of offering mixed opinion. You like all your own partisan leaning info. all the time. How very tribal. Might as well move to China, they've got your ideal news gathering situation all figured out already.
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 2:25pm
Cut the crap. When Will got quoted before his transformation, it was to criticize things like his columns on climate change.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 2:56pm
P.S. I admit I do wonder about how someone like you deals with the cognitive dissonance when you see photos like this, as you have so much invested in keeping the political kabuki hate show going:
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 2:46pm
The cognitive problem is on your end. Will was criticized for his political positions. He is now positively quoted because of his anti-Trump stance.
Edit to add:
You do realize that picture has nothing do do with the core of the topic of discussion, don’t you?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 3:23pm
Will, like everyone, like you, is critiqued for some of his views and supported for others. As a never-Trumper he's gotten a bit more support among liberals than before. But he is still critiqued for other views such as for his climate change views. Just as he was supported by liberals long before Trump for advocating against the death penalty and for the legalization of drugs. I mostly agree with his views on the SAT adversity index. You may not. Your dividing every one into friends and enemies is false and counter productive imo. But then, it seems to me you lump everyone that disagrees with you into the same category and label them all wingnuts. A simplistic view from a simple mind that ignores the diversity of views that thinking people hold on the many different issues we consider.
But none of this has anything to do with your nonsensical claim that " We all pick are likely to pick stories that reflect our POV." Nor does it negate the fact that, agree or disagree with their opinions, Will has been a respected conservative voice for decades in the MSM as a columnist for the Washington Post and a pundit on NBC. As has Brooks with his column in the NYT and regular slots with Mark Shields on PBS news hour. Both, and several other conservative columnists, occupy a different sphere than the others you erroneously link them to. Such as Limbaugh, Coulter, Yianopoulous who are not considered journalists but provocateurs.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 4:14pm
Again with the slurs.
Will was one of the pied pipers that made the GOP open to elect Donald Trump.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/yes-todays-republican-par_b_10700436
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 4:32pm
If you have read this much of George Will, who you disagree with and does not tell stories that reflect you POV, then your claim that, "We all pick are likely to pick stories that reflect our POV, " was clearly a stupid lie contradicted by many of your subsequent posts.
You want to make this into a strawman debate over each opinion of Will instead of addressing the fact that you're a stupid liar as I pointed out in my first post.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 4:54pm
When I post about Will, it is to criticize him. That reflects my POV. You find positive articles post about Will.
I pick stories that reflect my POV. The stories criticize Will. I link to a story pointing out his climate science denial. I point to another story about his role in creating the current GOP.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 4:52pm
This is just a known side effect of partisanship uber alles.
If I can take it back to topic, this is a reason why NYTimes is trying to be more selective about what TV news their reporters appear on. While some of the decisions might have been a bit wack, I laud the general impulse for this exact reason. The dumbing down of news to make it all a fun partisan team game is how we got where we are now. This is also why I tend to be very interested and post on it when one of the masters of demagogic tribal punditry break kayfabe and seem to be saying something real. It's a start, any little glint of genuine opinion is a start....something is better than nothin'...eternal optimist,
c'est moi
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 5:46pm
WRONG WRONG WRONG!Whoops, lost it there for a moment. AA, you are mistaken again. I distinctly, explicitly, carefully, repeatedly, said that I do not think the wire services "control" what gets covered. Your use of "in charge" is obviously synonymous with control. I have said, in other words, that they have a non-zero affect and I think it is still a fairly significant one but also clearly acknowledged that you are correct that there are other significant influences too. I actually can see that the world is changing in many ways.I’m not sure what you mean but I’ll say that if wire services affect what is in the news then when we talk about the news here, or anywhere, we have been affected by what they put out.
Maybe, but I think we can go a bit beyond the experience of last week when figuring what to expect for the near future.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 06/09/2019 - 9:37pm
We're working on the experience since mid-1800's (when agencies were formed) when figuring out what to expect for the near and long-term future.
What made you panic just now? someone wrote an article?
Me, I'm less worried about what AP/AFP/Reuters (who are fact-checked) say and less worried that you can go on a paranoia/apologist site & repeat 2-month-old disproved propaganda about Russia.
I'm more worried that a CNN announcer (who is watched by 10's or 100's of millions) can take a short blunt Mueller speech that explicitly stated that Russian interference in the election occurred, and instead announce that "Mueller found that no collusion occurred" or however they put it. These main news outlets normally get it right, but at key points they *unfairly* enable the White House/GOP lies in ways that make me wonder if there's a sneaky agenda - just enough fake news to keep people confused, to keep them from drawing a factual conclusion, even though CNN & NYTimes are obviously not Fox News.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 3:01am
More worried about those MEK & IRA (Russian) news agencies:
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 4:08am
More on the MEK troll gang debacle:
P.S,. A reminder that Guiliani is a big fan
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 5:40am
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 4:48am
I am struck that this is all another example of how news moves now. Check out what I have added. It's also an example of how Putin's government can't control things as much as it would like in this new media world. There's nobody controlling anything, rather, it's chaos. Ironic that it seems that The Guardian reporter in Moscow used the wire services help to file his story more quickly....teamwork...and right now with this, I would also call it: activism, this is rapid response activism, not just journalism, between simpatico parties. Which can be used for both good and ill! Just so happens most people agree that a free press is for good. We've all just got to get used to this. And still, even with the good intent, be skeptical.
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 6:38am
[note: this should also be a caveat re: claims over Facebook's media share - we likely just don't know]
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 6:46am
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/11/2019 - 7:01am
Maybe you'll see the new media situation if The Intercept explains it for you as regards one of your favorite topics:
It's not just about Russia anymore. Anyone can do it, they just showed the way.
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 2:32pm
and
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 7:04pm
Is this how you think it is? Disinformation moves from social media to news out lets and that has a big affect. I agree totally. Pause and take that in. I agree. Is it inconceivable to you though that the world is complicated enough that disinformation planted in the reporting of newsfeeds that reach 1300 newspapers which go out to publications reaching many millions of people also have a big affect. Is it your conviction that both cannot be true at the same time? And how desperate are you to use The Intercept as a source? You have been putting it down and using it as a bad example type since before its first publication.
By the way, when you were there did you notice some damned gutsy reporting on Brazil by Greenwald and associates?
by A Guy Called LULU on Tue, 06/11/2019 - 12:07am
Of course Glenn can do some good and even factual reporting if he cares to. It's just been 15 years since that was his daily habit. Between his casual life in Brazil and his love for all things Putin, he's grown a bit soft and self-absorbed. Maybe he should *only* write about social issues in Brazil and return to relevancy.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/11/2019 - 2:59am
All the bad stuff we are experiencing due to internet connected cell phones with cameras empowering everyone to be a propagandist is forgotten with one video like this gone viral. There's lots of good sides to the empowerment of every Tom Dick Harry and Jill too:
by artappraiser on Mon, 06/10/2019 - 6:05pm
Being on your knees that long w hands behind head ain't exactly easy. Meanwhile 20 police men and wonen draw a paycheck for holding guns and looking painfully useless and (deadly) incompetent.
Then there was the black guy picking up trash in his own yard, defying some asshole policeman to put down his trash picker rod "weapon".
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 06/11/2019 - 2:39am
Some journo buzz about subtraction rather than multiplication:
by artappraiser on Fri, 06/14/2019 - 9:15pm
If they consistently hit the right stories, whatever that means. There is an danger that shedding stories on X and Y topics might lower some potential audience, but the resulting work may be more hard-hitting.
Also, is Brexit and continual Parliament votes interest driving this? The Trump visit? And how much is The Guardian's new frequent Live section on some key event of the day driving this interest.
Important not to walk away with misleading interpretations of optimistic data.
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 06/15/2019 - 3:28am
China's on board with you: Who needs AFP in Beijing anyways? They already got the truth. AFP: just propaganda!
by artappraiser on Wed, 06/19/2019 - 11:51pm
How does China's denial of a visa to a French journalist put them "on board" with me?
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 06/20/2019 - 8:57am
I thought AFP was 1 of the Deep State news triumverate, spinning news to control the masses, the propaganda glue that holds all MSM together, waiting for the Consortium to set us free. Prolly China had a Faux News detector at the border and spotted this guy a mile away.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 06/20/2019 - 11:13am