oleeb's picture

    Never Again!

    By oleeb on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 7:07pm |

    I clearly recall the jubilation of Nixon leaving office.  For most of us it was a long awaited moment of relief and perhaps the country would recover from the mean-spirited nastiness of the Nixon White House and the pall it cast over our great country.  I figured that the nation had learned it's lesson and as a people we would never let another tyrant like Nixon ascend to the Presidency and surely even if we did the Congress, with it's newfound strength, would not take so long to remove one if they emerged on the scene.

    After a short respite of nontoxic leadership came the Reagan White House that was popular but not far underneath the surface there lurked the same penchant for criminality, the same disdain for the Constitution, the same belief that those in the executive branch new better than the Congress and besides, "If the President does it, it's legal."  Some skirmishes occured during the Reagan years but by and large the forces of lawlessness and criminality took the meaning of those encounters to be encouragement and not discouragement.  During the reign of Bush the first it seemed clear that such activities had been toned down to some degree and there was never any open clash between the executive and congress.

    When the GOP lost control of the executive branch in 92 they quickly and with nearly manic determination decided to shift their abuses of power toward attempting to run Bill Clinton out of office.  They put everything they had in to this unethical and abusive attempt to undo the election of 1992 but ultimately their effort failed.

    The GOP lost the race for the Presidency in 2000 but instantly used extralegal means to claim the Presidency for their party and install an imposter using their majority on the Supreme Court in an unprecdented and clearly illegal violation of the State of Florida's clear and unquestionable right to be the arbiter of its own elections.  The victorious Democrats, weary from years of outrageous fighting over the sex life of a the President demured and allowed the Republican theft of the election.

    From the moment he took office, George Bush acted like a man who knew he had no right to the power he assumed and the same was true for an army of Republican operatives.  Understanding full well their power was illegitimate, they began instantly acting like the lawless rogues they are.  They ran roughshod over the congress, over our existing laws, asserted powers on behalf of the President that clearly have no constitutional basis and otherwise bullied and cajoled their way along.  This approach was keeping Bush's popularity dead in the water and gaining no traction on the hill when the attacks of 9/11 occured.  The only people in the country who had knowledge of the possibility of this kind of attack failed utterly in their duty to keep this nation safe.  The incompetence of our political and military leadership on that day was horrifying.  The obviously fearful President Bush, in a humiliating moment, finally went on tv after the attack and told the nation that we must now embark on a "war on terror" to get our vengeance for the dastardly attacks of that day.

    The criminal minds of the Bush regime then proceeded to use the attacks they did nothing to prevent as the excuse for ratcheting up a series of illegal measures at home and abroad in the name of this mythical "war on terror."  Out of pure political fear, and in complete failure to do their duty in protecting our Constitution, the opposition Democrats not only didn't question but enthusiastically approved every bad idea the tyrant and his henchmen came up with.  Many of us commoners were howling and shouting and we were out in the streets trying to get the attention of our leaders to warn them this was a pack of lies, but it wasn't terribly popular so we were marginalized or ignored.  Our patriotism was attacked for daring to question the foolish, reckless and illegal war of agression carried out against the people of Iraq.

    On the domestic front, with a closely divided and then GOP controlled Congress, Bush and his gang of criminals ran just as roughshod over the domestic affairs of the nation.  Actively and purposefully infesting ever federal agency with a hackery not seen since the days of Tammany Hall, corruption like we have not seen in the modern age was the order of the day.  The rich were given a huge and totally irresponsible tax cutting program while expenditures for all categories of spending spun out of control.  The deficits that resulted were so reckless it was breathtaking.  The national debt grew exponentially with each Republican budget's passage.  No department, no program was exempt from the moral corruption or the traditional financial corruption schemes that generally had not characterized the federal government for many decades.  Scandals of major proportion erupted in the Department of Defense as war profiteering experienced a heyday unknown since the Spanish War a hundred years earlier.  Even high ranking CIA officials were indicted by the time all was said and done.  The once world renowned US Justice Department and the widely respected office of Federal District Attorney were dragged through the mud of scandal and abuse unlike anything every previously seen since establishment of the Republic.  Even the judiciary was packed with right wing extremist hacks at every opportunity by the regime as they did their best to literally destroy everything the nation had built up over the past centure in terms of policy and personnel.  Every regulatory agency and department was used by Bush's gang to rape and pillage the enviornment and to dismantle every regulation out of pure ideological dogma.  Economic regulation in particular was either given up or loosened to the point of nonexistence.

    The illegal war quickly came to be viewed as the stupid idea it was all along and drug down the reputation of the once popular imposter so that his real tyrannical character came into much sharper focus.  His hacks completely blew the Katrina response and helped to nearly drive beatiful New Orleans out of existence.  The entire gulf coast continues to lay in tatters to this day.  The people now began to see the tyrant for the ill-meaning dunce that he is and was.  Despite this, the tyranny continued unabated, the arrogance also continued apace while a pliant media and a pusilanimous opposition party did little to oppose his every outrageous and/or illegal whim.  Despite the failure of the media and the opposition all this time, the people saw through it all and had turned on Bush long before the media or Democrats found their confidence and began standing up to them.

    Now, finally, after 8 long years of the darkest tyrrany comes the light of new and law-abiding leadership.  The people, the media, and the Congress must never forget what this was like and how close we came to losing our republic entirely because we were not far from it.  We cannot allow the criminal behavior of the past 8 years to go unchecked, uninvestigated and unprosecuted.  But whatever officialdom does, if ever another usurper arises and claims executive power illegally as did this one the people must not make the same mistake they did in 2000 by staying home and watching tv.  Next time, every citizen who loves the Constitution and liberty must hit the streets and literally demonstrate that we will never, ever allow that to happen again.  NEVER!

    If we fail to do our duty and to be vigilant against the rise of another tyrant like Bush it could be fatal to our republic and that is simply unacceptable to every patrior or ought to be regardless of the circumstances.  My ancestors fought in the revolution so we could have our libertty unhindered by the arbitrary whimsy of any despot forever.  Look what happened when the Nixon gang went unpunished and when we did nothing to make clear to the lawless element in government that their lawbreaking will not go unpunished!  We got more and worse lawbreaking culminating in 8 years of lawlessness that makes the Nixon gang look like choir boys.  Never again America.  Never, never again!!!

    Comments

    Never again!!!!! This is a great post and fits in with Gregor's post today.

    Hope for the future and wariness for the past.


    by dickday (not verified) on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 10:21pm

    Yours is a prophetic voice, oleeb, whether you realize it or not!

    What I love about TPM is that we're like a tag-team. When one tires, another rises and takes the baton a little further. Your eloquence certaintly describes the times I've lived through.

    Thank you for your focused, irate and righteous eloquence!


    by TheraP (not verified) on Tue, 01/20/2009 - 10:26pm

    This time 'round we have tools we never had before. I'm talking about the internet, the lightening fast communication, the ability to zoom back into the past and gather historical information, legal information, who said what and when they said it and are they lying now.

    I'm talking about the blogs and the flow of information, the ideas, the ability to say, hey! Hold up there...that ain't what you said you were gonna do, bud.

    No one is alone anymore. Before this blogging thing who knew there were so many that were of a like mind? I sure didn't.

    Knowledge is power. There is strength in numbers. Cliche's? Yes. But, that doesn't make them any less true.

    Never, never again. Werks fer me.


    by ~flowerchild~ (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 1:48am

    Very good post! I agree w/ every word. NEVER again...

    Rec'd


    by stillidealistic (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 4:31am

    My ancestors fought in the revolution so we could have our liberty unhindered by the arbitrary whimsy of any despot forever.
    I hate to be the one voice that disagrees (again) but I fear I must before liberals lather themselves up into a torch-waving mob.

    This seems a mythological world where Nixon was the first man to violate the Constitution and remain unpunished. This is such a one-sided view of historical truths that I find myself in defense of someone I just spent the last eight years bad-mouthing. Not in defense of Baby Bush and Cheney, exactly, but in defense of reality and probity as we embark on this new chapter of American history. Our destiny with Baby Bush was created long before Nixon and we need to look at the entire picture before we come to hasty conclusions based on incomplete evidence.

    The man who served in the years before Nixon was both villain and saint, using a "false flag" event to lie this country into war. A bloody and fierce war filled with war crimes and atrocities with only the thinnest of Constitutional arguments to make the case. Yet because he also signed the Civil Rights Act, he is hailed as a hero and not a demagogue. The greatest democratic president in history was responsible for internment camps of American citizens and for outlining the path that led to nuclear bombs being dropped on Japan.

    Politicians of all political persuasions have been doing the Texas Two-step on our rights as far back as the Alien and Sedition Act under John Adams. The very next president, one of greatest, usurped Congressional authority as he extended the country via the Louisiana Purchase and proceeded to push Manifest Destiny despite the Native Americans standing in the way.

    Clinton was responsible for the deaths of American men, women and children on American soil for having the temerity of praying to a strange God. He also allowed 800,000 Rwandans to die because he failed to act. Not to mention the legions of young men and women who fell victim to his Omnibus Crime Bill and a stepped-up War on Drugs to prove he was a man. That doesn't make what the republicans did under Reagan or Gingrich any less egregious, but it was hardly unprecedented or unforeseen given a more historical context.

    If we truly want to make sure this never happens again, then a more holistic and realistic view of history is required. We must be willing to hold every player accountable for the flubbed lines and piss-poor performance - from Pelosi to Reid to Boener to McConnell - then we will never reach the standard of Never Again. Never Again requires much more clarity than this blog accounts on the list of offenses to our dignity, our morality and our Constitution.

    We need just as much introspection as condemnation to create a truly sustainable change to way we have conducted ourselves for the last 230 years.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 1:21pm

    As usual, you just don't get it pal.

    Nobody said Nixon was the first other than you. Furthermore, who said we should only go after the bad actors who are Republicans? The post was a look at a related chain of events that have occured in our lifetimes.

    Your reference to Clinton and Waco is, no disrespect, false, absurd and not worthy of any further comment other than to say lunatics in a cult that is armed to the teeth, abusing women and children and then acting like total maniacs when the government attempts to seize their illegal arsenal is not simply praying to a "strange God". Were they worshiping gun powder? Your other points are equally unrelated on Rwanda and drug convictions. Those items have nothing to do with what this post is about.

    Back to the main point, it just happens to be all the major and most minor bad actors in the events described in the post have been Republicans. I don't have any problem punishing the lilly-livered Democrats who aided and abetted the crimes that occured via dereliction of duty. I would think that implicit in what I've written.

    It's annoying that you consistently misread and misinterpret the things you critique attempting to position yourself as somehow more reasonable and fair when in fact, it appears to me, you have trouble facing facts and the reality of the political world head on.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 1:35pm

    As usual, you miss the point of what I wrote in your rush to defend what you wrote rather than perhaps looking at where you failed to communicate your theory properly. You blame "republicans" for everything under the sun and then wonder why I come away with the impression of you being an apologist for democratic crimes.

    Your understanding of history is about a millimeter thick.

    You forgive Clinton his crimes because he was made to be a villain by Congressional republicans. The fact remains that the FBI killed men, women and children at Waco with nary an explanation or an apology. Period. That is not a negotiable opinion. Clinton's Justice department used scant and faulty justification for that crime. The Branch Davidians - though I find them to be odd and strange and a few sandwiches short of a picnic - did nothing to bring death and destruction upon themselves in that manner and that you would defend the FBI's actions only shows the depth of your partisan nature and your inability to take half-set back before you charge forward with illogical and immoral arguments.

    You are obviously willing to democrats get away things that you would never let republicans live down. I am not. I am also not willing to disregard all the other immoral and illogical things done throughout history as a way to assuage my own complicity in these most recent crimes by baby Bush. All of our complicity in those crimes. In a representative democracy, the people are responsible for what their leaders do in their name. You seem to want to disregard that responsibility.

    I didn't miss the point of anything. Your post is about burning the guilty. Punishing the wicked. All without a complete understanding of what that really means and how we got to this place.

    A witch hunt is not the best place to seek justice or truth.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 2:20pm

    PS: It is annoying that "liberals" such as yourself are so busy being "right" that you never get anything done.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 2:22pm

    Great post Oleeb. Two points:

    I remember thinking just the opposite of you when I saw Bush in office in the beginning. He seemed to me that he felt completely entitled to the office. He was haughty and began that wide-armed strut that Karl Rove probably told him to do. (It is how alpha male gorillas make themselves look bigger and tougher.) I remember wondering how he could act so confident when he actually lost the election.

    Second -- I heard a great quote this morning on the Diane Rehm show. The context was a discussion about Ronald Reagan pretending to be a conservative but doubled the national debt for self-serving reasons, all the while making everyone "feel good" about everything, especially being American. This is the quote:

    Ronald Reagan promised that you could get to heaven without dying, and now we are paying the price for that lie.



    by CVille Dem (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 2:43pm

    I was thinking the same thing about Bush's perceptions of his own legitimacy. I remember Alexander Cockburn, years ago, writing of Bush I that he was suffering the indignity of running for positions that in the past he would have simply inherited.


    by Skybolt (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 2:49pm

    We typically can't get anything done because folks like you stand in the way posing as reasonable but in reality you don't know what you're doing or talking about.

    What's most annoying, however, is when you Republicans get things done you do so in such an assinine and unworkable way that nothing works that needs to and everything in America gets worse. I can see how you people arrive at such bad decisions by reading the posts you put up that are so off the mark. Garbage in. Garbage out.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 2:52pm

    oleeb, I've put up a call for Justice:

    http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/therap/2009/01/simple-justice---not-a-witch-h.php

    I'd appreciate your comments. :)


    by TheraP (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 2:54pm

    Just another distorted Marxist view of modern history.


    by spric (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 2:57pm

    Dude, I joined the republican party in August, so don't blame their mistakes on me.

    Further, at least I am willing to acknowledge that mistakes were made by everyone involved. You seem willing to forgive anyone with a "D" after their name while burning the rest of the country at the stake for having the temerity to come to different conclusions than you.

    Arrogance and conceit fairly drip from each and every word you write. Condemnation and sublimation in equal measure. Quite the contortion act you have going on there to avoid history and entreat us not to repeat it in the same breath. You should take that one on the road or at least to Vegas.

    You are liberal reflection of the neocon nightmare we have just survived. Forgive me if I don't cede the conversation to people such as yourself who would have us never move forward if it means showing an ounce of forgiveness or empathy or even understanding for our political opposites. If your side does it, then it is is perfectly justified. If the other side does it, they are evil. Must be a nice, neat little world you live in where things are always so black and white.

    My understanding of history is a little more complex.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 3:04pm

    Jason, I happen to agree with you, though there is an undeniable argument to be made for examining the Bush presidency.

    Like you, I worry about the form this examination would take, as there is no conceivable way to fully insulate an investigation of the presidency from political influence and its attendant consequences.

    In fact, the consequences of political division would fall disproportionately on the shoulders of the very liberals who cried "foul" the loudest while the Bush administration went blithely about its business of shredding the Constitution with Congressional approval. Those who cry out now for justice unwittingly cry out for faction and for distracting the nation from the important work of preserving a viable future for ourselves and the world.

    Justice, in this case, may not be achievable without creating a body count in the tens of millions.


    by Ripper McCord (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 4:18pm

    I agree completely, Ripper. It also illustrates the painful irony of winning.

    We need to conduct investigations, pursue the evidence dispassionately and let the chips fall where they may. I suspect this explains Barack's tone toward republicans during the transition. He can't be accused of a witch hunt should it become necessary to seek indictments based on what his Justice Department may dig up.

    At the end of the day, though, we may all need to suck it up and choose a bitter medicine that is nonetheless our best available option. There has to be a reason why most administrations, despite long histories of shady dealings, are rarely taken to task upon exiting the national stage.

    I suspect they have gotten very good at hiding the bodies to the point that digging them up causes more harm than good.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 4:30pm

    Tell Congress to support HR 104 and investigate wrongdoing by the Bush administration. If we let Bush escape accountability, then we invite similar abuses of power by future administrations. GreenChange.org makes it easy to tell your representatives in Congress to support an investigation; just go to http://tinyurl.com/85zrq4


    by greenferret (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 4:48pm

    In a sense I suppose both perceptions are correct. But my take was and remains that the destructive nature of what he was doing from day one was because of the recognition that this wasn't going to last, that they might be found out or otherwise deposed. He and his gang of henchmen have spent the past 8 years literally wrecking as much as possible about our government, the economy, etc... in the way a thief might trash a home he is burglarizing.

    He certainly felt that the office was his by right as a result of who he was, but like everything else in his life, because it was truly unearned and undeserved he knew it wasn't legit. His swagger and macho appearance to me, were the same sort of behavior we see from Republicans all the time---acting like the big, mean men in order to cover up the fact that they're really terrified wimps overcompensating for their astounding shortcomings. Someone who is really powerful and who feels entitled doesn't have any need to act like that. W's entire life is a phony overcompensation for his incompetence and the fact that he never earned anything he's got. On top of that, he has the reverse Midas touch. Everything he touches is turned to crap. Every business enterprise he has been involved in was a failure and he was the worst President in history. The only exception was when he made a lot of loot by stealing money from the public to build a new stadium for his ball team and then selling it.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 6:49pm

    Now that I've picked my jaw up off the floor and stopped laughing I'll respond point by point. I'll put my responses in caps not to flame but just so you can see them more easily.

    Dude, I joined the republican party in August, so don't blame their mistakes on me.

    YOU'RE KIDDING RIGHT? YOU MUST BE THE ONLY PERSON WHO CHOSE TO BECOME A REPUBILCAN IN THE PAST SIX MONTHS. I'M AMAZED YOU WOULD ADMIT SOMETHING LIKE THAT AFTER THE LAST 8 YEARS. THERE MIGHT BE SOME EXCUSE IF YOU HAD BEEN A LIFELONG REPUBLICAN. OBVIOUSLY, YOU HAVE SOME WORK TO DO ON ALL THIS POLITICAL STUFF. I GAVE YOU MORE CREDIT THAN TO BE THAT GULLIBLE AND EASILY HOODWINKED.

    Further, at least I am willing to acknowledge that mistakes were made by everyone involved. You seem willing to forgive anyone with a "D" after their name while burning the rest of the country at the stake for having the temerity to come to different conclusions than you. WHERE DOES THIS COME FROM? DO YOU ACTUALLY READ WHAT I'VE WRITTEN? IF YOU DO, IT'S HARD TO TELL WHEN YOU WRITE SUCH SILLY THINGS. THIS IS THE TYPICAL SORT OF REPUBLICAN REJOINDER WHEN THEY ARE OUTMATCHED AND IT IS DEMONSTRABLY FALSE.

    Arrogance and conceit fairly drip from each and every word you write. Condemnation and sublimation in equal measure. Quite the contortion act you have going on there to avoid history and entreat us not to repeat it in the same breath. You should take that one on the road or at least to Vegas. TYPICAL RIGHT WING REPUBLICAN BLATHER. RUSH DOES THIS ACT EVERY DAY FOR FOUR HOURS ON THE AM BAND. YOU NEED TO COME UP WITH SOMETHING NEW.

    You are liberal reflection of the neocon nightmare we have just survived. Forgive me if I don't cede the conversation to people such as yourself who would have us never move forward if it means showing an ounce of forgiveness or empathy or even understanding for our political opposites. If your side does it, then it is is perfectly justified. If the other side does it, they are evil. Must be a nice, neat little world you live in where things are always so black and white. WHICH OF US JOINED THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN AUGUST? AND YOU SAY THIS ABOUT THE THINGS I WRITE? AGAIN, HAVE YOU ACTUALLY READ ANYTHING I'VE WRITTEN OR IS IT THAT IT'S TOO DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO GRASP OR ARE YOU JUST ON AUTOEMOTE? YOU'RE VERY DEFENSIVE ABOUT YOUR NAIVE AND INACCURATE COMMENTS. PERHAPS IN THE FUTURE YOU SHOULD ACTUALLY READ WHAT I AND OTHERS WRITE HERE, TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT, AND THEN COMMENT.

    My understanding of history is a little more complex. PLEASE STOP! YOU'RE KILLIN ME WITH THIS ONE! REALLY, I'M DYIN OVER HERE! WHAT'S ESPECIALLY FUNNY IS THAT YOU'RE ACTUALLY SERIOUS ABOUT THIS. LET'S SEE, AFTER TWO TERMS OF BUSH YOU JOIN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HISTORY MUST BE SUPER COMPLEX INDEED. LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 7:44pm

    The more you write, the more clearly you make my point. Putting your inane scribbling in all caps doesn't make it right.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 7:47pm

    Did ya read it at all junior? Geeez! Just try reading it once before you comment. That way ya won't look so dumb. I had to use caps because I'm not able to use tags where I am right now.

    Have you noticed the others telling you in different ways the very same thing I'm telling you? Is it a conspiracy against you?

    I used to think you just weren't very bright and very naive. I'm concluding now you're nothing but a troll.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 7:55pm

    Dude. I read it. I read all the crap you write. You assume because I don't agree with what you wrote that I must not have understood. What kind of arrogant and conceited bullshit is that?


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 7:58pm

    Watch your tongue, JEM! Puh...leez! I like nice civil language on my blogs.


    by TheraP (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 8:00pm

    oopss. not my blog... well, watch your tongue anyway, please!


    by TheraP (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 8:01pm

    Sure, the guy using all caps isn't told to be civil. Makes sense to me.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 8:04pm

    I saw no profanity in oleeb's words, did you?


    by TheraP (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 8:12pm

    More proof you don't read the stuff. I explained that I was not in a place where I could use the tags so used caps not to flame but so it would be easy to discern where your words stopped and mine began. Too complicated for ya? Oy!


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 9:40pm

    I don't have a problem with disagreement but it seems to me from reading what you write and considering the way you appear to reason, you don't understand the subject matter or what you're talking about. If you did, you wouldn't write some of the things you write. That is the problem I have with your comments.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 9:44pm

    Utter and complete balderdash. Look it up.

    There's no correlation at all between Waco and an illegal war. Only a true wingnut would make such an assertion. But then, you did join the Republican Party in August. Must have been Palin was an inspiration to ya.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 9:46pm

    It's the tone that prompts a profane response. A scolding, intransigent refusal to let someone disagree without using ad hominem attacks as response. I am sorry for the profanity, but I hardly start off there.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 10:31pm

    Dude, I read what you said. It doesn't explain using all caps as some sort of pointed response. If you have something to say, say it in a tone that facilitates understanding and respect.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 10:56pm

    Once again, because I disagree with what you wrote I didn't understand what was written. Perhaps you missed it, but many people agree with my comments. In fact, more people agree with me than disagree with me most times. Perhaps it isn't me who needs to work on communicating ideas more effectively?


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 10:57pm

    It's a matter of degree only. Attacking a group of Americans with over whelming force and no proof of anything is simply a different expression of the same arrogance. That you can have the moral flexibility to defend one and condemn the other only proves that you are not truly progressive.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 11:01pm

    You simply are out of your league and quite clearly do not know what you are talking about. To think that you could characterize the difference between the mass murder that has taken place in Iraq and the unique and regretable circumstances of Waco as only a matter of degree is incredible. Simply incredible. It's beyond belief. Your descent into more and more ridiculous assertions is breathtaking (albeit not for a Republican). That you can do so with a straight face and not feel the embarassment you ought to feel for making such a sophomoric argument is amazing.

    Just for the record: there is no comparison between Waco and the crime against humanity known as the Iraq War. None. Zip. Zero. Nada. This is the sort of childish argument one expects from a middle schooler or a slow 9th grader.

    It is without question not a matter of degree as you so ignorantly assert. It is an entirely different matter. Indeed, the differences are so vast that your assertion is laughable. You need to hook up with Senator DeMint of South Carolina. He seems just your brand of small mind and hard head.

    The only commonality at all betwixt the two is that people died. Your apparent inability to discern the gargantuan difference demonstrates that when you decided this past August to become a Republican you certainly picked the right party for yourself. Lots of other right wing extremists in that "conservative" organization agree wholeheartedly with you.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 11:18pm

    You just like arguing for the sake of it and because you apparently aren't clever enough to realize how off the mark you are, you must think you're fooling others. Please, please, please go do your trolling elsewhere. Either that or start paying enough attention to make intelligent arguments instead of just vomiting up all this substandard Republican foolishness. I suppose you are like the rest of the Republicans out there: impervious to the truth. You create and live in your own reality. Pathetic.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 11:23pm

    Dude, the War on Drugs, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Rwanda, Welfare "Reform" etc, etc are all examples of the same arrogance and conceit and flexible morality that is the very embodiment of what Bush has done. It is indeed a matter of degrees, your inability to see and understand that fact notwithstanding.

    You are out of your league when it comes to discussing these items because you are an ideologue. You don't make rational or logical arguments based on the available information. You are all or nothing. The left equivalent of what you have been protesting all these years. Your view of reality is the narrowest slice possible.

    Thankfully Obama has a whole legion of moderates, left and right, to help get his very progressive agenda passed.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 11:23pm

    Ad hominem attacks. Again. You prove my point. Again. Doesn't this get tiring, old (wo)man?


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 11:24pm

    Look out, oleeb. You're about to get the ol' "Libruls ain't done nuttin' in 40 years. It's going to take the new librul Republicans like me, Cornyn, and McConnell and the rest of the 'friends of the workingman' to finally gain a Progressive Renaissance" line of bs.

    That seems to happen about the time you cut too close to the bone, and you have pretty well nailed it here.


    by SleepinJeezus (not verified) on Wed, 01/21/2009 - 11:31pm

    OMG! You are almost as funny as my favorite comedian Rush Limbaugh! Keep em comin Junior!

    I want to thank you for revealing yourself for all to see as the creepy, trolling, rightwingnut that you are. Bless you Mr. Miller for holding the banner of the Party of Stupid high and doing so with such knuckleheaded pride! I know it is painful for you to try and absorb the world as it is, but just keep living in your fantasy world and all the scary stuff (like rational thought) will go away. Nighty nite little boy.

    And while you get your needed rest I will continue to think of the slop you've writtn and be seriously laughin my ass off for at least an hour or two. Wow! Just... wow!


    by oleeb (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 2:55am

    You sure nailed it! thanks for the warnin!

    I must say he's a remarkable specimen isn't he?


    by oleeb (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 2:56am

    Do you really understand what an ad hominem attack is or is it just a phrase Hannity or Rush used and you liked the sound of it? Bosh little boy! Your head is filled with cornpone.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 2:58am

    I am quite comfortable with the many eyes on TPM judging our interaction and not finding my wanting. I am likewise sure that none would describe me as you have. Delusions of persecution keeps you from rational thought. As hominem attacks show you to be a rude, sarcastic child as well, despite your obviously advanced years.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 10:39am

    Ad hominem means attack the man, not the argument. It's that moment you find yourself comparing me to Rush Limbaugh or calling me a troll instead of responding to what I actually wrote. It is your normal method of debate, as this entire thread ably demonstrates.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 10:40am

    Your "argument" is an embarassment to you pal. You are arguing the straight right wing line which is nonsense. Anyone who does that is not operating with all cylinders firing see? All that hooey has been thoroughly discredited. But then, you decided after the 8 most corrupt years in our history to join the party responsible for it so I don't guess we can expect too much from ya though personally I'd like to see you disappear, quit embarassing yourself with this right wing crap, and go find your kind so you can all exchange conspiracy theories about Waco and Ruby Ridge.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 1:44pm

    Actually, I am doing no such thing, though I hardly expect a partisan warrior such as yourself to understand where I am coming from.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 2:10pm

    I'm a partisan warrior. That's pure Rush garbage. What I've had to say isn't partisan at all. But you cannot even grasp why that is the case. That's why it's so exasperating to deal with sophomoric people like yourself.

    And if I'm a partisan warrior you are what? Oh yeah, so thick you became a Republican in August. I almost forgot.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 9:21pm

    Solidarity, oleeb!

    We're never giving up!


    by TheraP (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 9:53pm

    oleeb, in case you missed the links, there is a lot of evidence out now that what we've been experiencing here at TPM is nothing different from what Conyers is being attacked for, or Glenn Greenwald or others. And the whole method of attack, every single time, is to accuse people of being part of a lynch mob or witch hunt. Not only that, they view the "messengers" - you and I as more problematic than our message! Which is both amusing and empowering in my view!

    So, keep up the action! They're apparently scared of us - little us - is scaring the repubs.

    Peace and solidarity, my friend!


    by TheraP (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 9:57pm

    It is your scolding tone and inability to see any side of an issue other than your own that makes you partisan. I have no problem with what I write as I do so under my own name. Ad hominem is all you have left.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Thu, 01/22/2009 - 10:08pm

    It's your ignorance, sanctimony and your sophistry that I don't like. It isn't that you don't agree.

    You don't know what you're talking about and it is quite apparent. You are sophomoric in your arguments. I'm not the only one that has pointed this out to you but you blithely continue on with your hooey as though it's just me. It isn't. You are naive and grossly uninformed. That's not an attack it is an observation made from reading the absurd things you've written here the demonstrate this.

    I really do think you are in the right party. It is a hallmark of Republicans to pride themselves in their boneheaded wrongness and after having made a particular stupid remark to get even more puffed up about how they "showed em" and that is precisely what you've done here as revealed in your Ruby Ridge/Waco (and wacko) rant. My suggestion is that you go and be with those over at Town Hall who are of like mind.


    by oleeb (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 5:12am

    It's your scolding tone and haughty, superiority that keeps you from hearing and understanding those opinions that you don't already hold. You tag anything you don't understand or don't agree with as sophistry (you're favorite word!) or ignorant, troll blather.

    I am not surprised you have a complete inability to see the very clear correlation between killing men, women and children on American soil and doing the same thing, only a thousand times worse, in Iraq. Both choices by president required an arrogance of character and a disrespect for the rule of law.

    You call my position a "wacky rant" and "Republican nonsense" without ever once simply stating why you think I am wrong. It is the classic ad hominem attack and because I don't whither before your illogical scorn, I am attacked more forcefully and with great fury.

    The only sad thing here is that you represent the vast majority of the Raging Left. The mirror image of the Rapture Right who have been in control for so long. Thank God the moderates are here to mitigate your influence as well.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 10:49am

    My reply here.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 10:50am

    Jason, I value your viewpoint and generally really like your writing. As such, I really hope that you'll reflect on your participation in this argument.

    It's your tone I find scolding and haughty. Thera wrote a heartfelt blog and received a lecture from you in response. It's only been downhill from there. I realize there are two sides to any argument and that this one has been heated. But your accusations are beyond hypocritical. You've been in the muck as much as anyone in this one.


    by Orlando (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 10:56am

    I appreciate qualifier, but it doesn't make your feedback any less slanted.

    I didn't lecture, though I certainly found it necessary to defend. It wasn't until the ad hominem attacks started flying that any of my comments responded in like manner as that is the only way one can respond to such an attack. Go back and reread the comment I made to what TheraP said.

    I agreed with the need for investigations and simply reminded people that probity and logic and reason must prevail if this isn't to appear as a witch hunt to the other side. We have a history of this happening as recently as a decade ago with Clinton.

    That wasn't sophistry or talking points or being haughty or scolding. (By the way, repeating back my charges is hardly a winning way to debate. "I know you are but what am I?" is how it comes across.) It was an honest and reasonable read on the available evidence.

    It also highlighted things that most writers are unaware of on their own, myself included. It wasn't until she explained that she would be perfectly happy to accept the outcome of investigations, even if she didn't agree. Her tone certainly didn't imply that from the beginning.

    The fact that I would even imply that "liberals" would take prosecutions too far brought out all the "big guns" in defense of a process that has yet to be waged. That entire blog reads like a text-book example of what I was speaking about happening: ganging up on "the enemy" when there is a little blood in the water. I find it highly ironic that so many self-proclaimed liberals would have such a rigid and ideological stance in direct contrast to the example our new president has shown.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 12:35pm

    "I find it highly ironic that so many self-proclaimed liberals would have such a rigid and ideological stance in direct contrast to the example our new president has shown.

    Yup, sounds kinda' scolding and haughty to me, too.

    You will notice that I withdrew from the discussions yesterday once they devolved into the "victimization and crucifixion of Christ, as represented by jason."

    I'm somewhat saddened to see it continuing today for I, too, enjoy your writing and would appreciate a reasoned discussion that includes a few, more salient points and a little less righteous indignation.

    But that's just me.


    by SleepinJeezus (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 12:56pm

    "If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen." Seems someone took that tone with me when I objected to the caricature everyone was painting of my opinion. You started in almost immediately when you saw some "republican" blood in the water.

    I love how everyone involved chooses to dismiss their own part in the drama, looking to place blame elsewhere. If you choose not to acknowledge your own hyper-partisanship, stand by for much more of this sort of thing around here because I am not the only person who doesn't.

    If pointing out that our president serves as a better example of liberal politics than the Raging Left around here is haughty and scolding, then I suggest you guys grow some thicker skin and spend some time in front of the mirror.

    But that's just me.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 1:17pm

    Just like old times! (Oh wait. That was just yesterday.)
    ;)


    by Hilarym99 (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 2:26pm

    It's deja vu all over again. :O)


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 2:39pm

    Would you say this response contains a salient point or righteous indignation?

    Case closed.


    by SleepinJeezus (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 4:09pm

    If you can't see the salient points (hypocrisy masquerading as commentary, failing to live up to the democratic president's fine example, specific examples of your hyper-partisan nature) then there is very little I can do to help you achieve understanding. I suggest seeing your doctor to help with the early onset of dementia, because you are clearly incapable of grasping very simple arguments, despite the simplistic nature of your screeds.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 4:22pm

    Salient points? Or righteous indignation? Take another look above and then you decide.

    Main Entry: SALIENT
    Part of Speech: adjective
    Definition: noticeable, important
    Synonyms: arresting, arrestive, conspicuous, famous, impressive, intrusive, jutting, marked, moving, notable, obtrusive, obvious, outstanding, pertinent, projecting, prominent, pronounced, protruding, remarkable, signal, significant, striking, weighty
    Antonyms: inconspicuous, unimportant, unnoticeable (My emphasis)
    *********************
    Main Entry: INDIGNATION
    Part of Speech: noun
    Definition: anger
    Synonyms: animus, boiling point, danger, displeasure, exasperation, fury, huff*, ire, mad, miff*, pique, rage, resentment, rise, scorn, slow burn, umbrage, wrath
    Antonyms: glee, happiness, joy (Again, my emphasis)
    ******************

    Maybe look up "scolding" and "haughty" too! That is after all where this whole drama started.

    Also, "Excuse me mister, but your ad hominem is showing!"


    by SleepinJeezus (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 5:05pm

    You are obviously quite incapable of having a serious discussion about anything. Further, you take a simple disagreement and turn it into a personal vendetta. I think you offer way too much protest to be entirely innocent of the very things you accuse me of doing. You are the mirror image of that which you profess to hate.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 5:09pm

    Case closed.


    by SleepinJeezus (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 5:10pm

    PS: Perhaps this explain why only a select few "ditto heads" seem to agree with your characterization of me.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 5:11pm

    If this is your "negotiation" style from all those years on the progressive front lines, no wonder nothing big has been accomplished by the left the last forty years.


    by Jason Everett Miller (not verified) on Fri, 01/23/2009 - 5:14pm

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