MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Pressure building for UN to declare Palestine a Sovereign State in September
By we are stardust on Mon, 04/04/2011 - 10:41pm |"JERUSALEM — With revolutionary fervor sweeping the Middle East, Israel is under mounting pressure to make a far-reaching offer to the Palestinians or face a United Nations vote welcoming the State of Palestine as a member whose territory includes all of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem."
[snip]
"Israel, seeing the prospect of even more hostile governments as its neighbors, is insisting on caution and time before taking any significant steps. It also wants to build in extensive long-term security guarantees in any two-state solution, but those inevitably infringe the sovereignty of a Palestinian state.
The international community tends to draw the opposite conclusion. Foreign Secretary William Hague of Britain, for example, said last week that one of the most important lessons to be learned from the Arab Spring was that “legitimate aspirations cannot be ignored and must be addressed.” He added, referring to Israeli-Palestinian talks, “It cannot be in anyone’s interests if the new order of the region is determined at a time of minimum hope in the peace process.”
URL:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/world/middleeast/03mideast.html?_r=1
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Comments
That article is too sunnily optimistic - and misses a crucial bit of information.
They do have the votes in the General Assembly, but they haven't got the votes in the Security Council: the US will likely veto the required resolution letting the accession process go forward. The GA may still have a vote, but the Palestinian Authority would then remain in a form of legal limbo regarding its sovereignty status, because the requisite procedures stipulated in the UN Charter haven't been followed. States are admitted to membership in the United Nations by decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council. That recommendation is not just optional.
This has been a longstanding campaign on the part of the PA, and I don't know why they suddenly think they can get past the US this time, nor why the rest of the UNGA doesn't care whether they receive the requisite Security Council recommendation. I obviously haven't been keeping up, but that NYT piece doesn't really shed much light on what has happened here either. Bizarre.
by Obey on Tue, 04/05/2011 - 10:08am
Thanks for reminding me of the mechanics; if the White House and Cameron, et.al., are taking it so seriously, can we assume something's afoot?
by we are stardust on Tue, 04/05/2011 - 10:43am
Sure, something's afoot. But that article is attrocious. I'd like to know why and where this newfound momentum came from. Is the PA suddenly not afraid of embarrassing the US by forcing them to pull out another veto card? Did the world community suddenly realize that the Palestinians deserved sovereignty? Did the world community suddenly decide the US wasn't so much an intermediary as an Israeli lackey in the peace negotiations, and so their judgment should no longer be defered to?
The article answers none of those questions, and offers no on-the-record nor off-the-record speculation about why this is suddenly on the table, other than some gibberish about the Arab Spring. I.e. who exactly has broken ranks with the US because of the Arab Spring? The NYT offers no indication, instead just spouting some irrelevant Israel government tough talk about how Israel won't back down...
Dunno.
by Obey on Tue, 04/05/2011 - 11:01am
I googled for more; this kept freezing my browser, and I don't have time to read it; i'm working on something else:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-threatens-unilateral-st...
by we are stardust on Tue, 04/05/2011 - 11:40am
I read into it that the Arab Spring has convinced Prime Minister Salam Fayyad and President Mahmoud Abbas that Palestinians won't put up with more extemporizing over a "peace process" that is simply smoke and mirrors. And if the PA is going to fall, it might as well appear to do so on a matter of principle.
The move would prove the necessity of the move. If Israel can't bring itself to come to the table with this threat looming, it has no intention to negotiate. International intervention will clearly be the only possible remedy. In the General Assembly, countries will have to stand up and be counted. The U.S. will no doubt use its Security Council veto again, but that will pretty much destroy its claim to be an arbiter between the parties. Its time for adults to step in.
by acanuck on Tue, 04/05/2011 - 6:12pm
Good thoughts. El Baradei and I think one other candidate in Egypt said they would declare war on Israel if they attack Gaza again.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2700062/posts
And Turkey and others have scheduled another aid flotilla for May; of course Bibi is trying to get the UN to declare it illegal ahead of time....
I'd imagine the White House via Gates is on the phone a lot with Egypt still over the Israel-Egyptian treaty.
by we are stardust on Tue, 04/05/2011 - 6:34pm
What are you doing hanging around Free Republic, stardust? You'll rot your brain. I can see why ElBaradei might be talking tough on Israel. Like Amr Moussa, he's well-known in the West but lacks street cred in his home country. Most observers give him no chance of winning a presidential election.
Still, "declare war" is pretty reckless, off-the-wall language. I've got to wonder if the original Al-Watan interview had him saying that in direct quotes. Because the same translation quotes him saying: "In case of any future Israeli attack on Gaza -- as the next president of Egypt – I will open the Rafah border crossing and will consider different ways to implement the joint Arab defense agreement."
That's a lot different from "declare war."
by acanuck on Tue, 04/05/2011 - 8:24pm
'Rot my brain'? LOL! That ship may have already sailed. Seriously, I just banged out a google search since I couldn't remember where I'd read it originally. I think you're right that he's posing for the electorate (binding Israel hate), but shekissesfrogs (fantastic screen name) at my.fdl says that what Egypt will change in the peace treaty is the either gas or oil deal (forget which), and that while the pipeline was down it cost Israel a million a day.
Wish they would open the border. The May flotilla will be dicey.
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 8:22am
Okay; here it is at Ynet. It sure could be read that El Baradei was speaking more metaphorically:
"Former International Atomic Energy Agency chief Mohamed ElBaradei, who had previously announced his intetions to run for the presidency of Egypt, said Monday that “if Israel attacked Gaza we would declare war against the Zionist regime.""
War with the zionist regime as opposed to war on Israel.
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 8:39am
So they'll invade the regime, not the country?
Riiiiight. Got it.
WTF is with the wierd parsing around this place these days...?! El Baradei is a pandering politician. woopdeedoo. He's like the Mitt Romney of Egypt. Kinda refreshing to see democracy in action, even if it looks kinda clownish.
by Obey on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 8:58am
Uh...not my translation, there, Pug. I was going for 'here's what he said' vs. 'here's what Ynet said he said'. Metaphorical pandering, IOW. And Ynet would find his remarks helpfully inflammatory. Just looked at juan cole's site; nothing, but he at least reads Arabic.
Kinda hard to read for yourself: .'http://alwatan.kuwait.tt/
And by da by, I finally got what you meant, speaking of parsing. I was calling AD 'Mr. Logic', not you. ;o)
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 9:54am
Yeah, kinda hard to read the original. wierd font, eh...?
And why can't I also be Mr. Logic...?!?!
by Obey on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 10:17am
No satisfying you, is there, dear?
I poked around; the 'El Baradei Threatens' google got 167,000 hits or so. I checked about a dozen, and the pundits and bloggers either offer no source at all or quote Ynet. This was the most interesting-looking site that had it. Like a secret decoder ring...
But yes; the font is lovely; it runs along the page like water......
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 10:36am
Um, stardust, look at the byline: Newsmax. Secondary site, not a source. And I knew Ynet supplied the translation everybody else is relying on; I was trying to pin down what ElBaradei actually said to Al-Watan. I asked an Arabic-speaking buddy to track the original story down. No reply yet; one problem is there's more than one paper calling itself Al-Watan. Oddly, if ElBaradei did say what he's quoted as saying, it's created no stir in Egypt.
by acanuck on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 4:22pm
I assumed they were all different desks of the main paper; dunno. I also assume by now that some folks had some reason to gin the quote up a bit. You wouln't be thinking that the NYT is engaging in a little selective yellow journalism, would you?
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 5:52pm
I didn't see this picked up by the Times, stardust. Just by right-wing blogs. Got a link?
Anyway, I finally found what Al-Watan posted on their website. Scroll to the bottom of this thread for the thrilling conclusion.
by acanuck on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 7:50pm
I am Mr. Logic? Obey, before asking if you, too, can be Mr. Logic, I think we should ask stardust if she means that as compliment? A criticism? An observation implying limited emotional facility/right brain underdevelopment? Something else entirely?...
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 10:47am
What are ya saying, AD? That I'm like this guy...?
by Obey on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 10:53am
Good one.
No, au contraire. Your comment suggested to me that both hemispheres of your brain are working wonderfully...with the confusion, ambiguity, or per your comment just caution, that can sometimes generate in a person!
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:03am
Shoot; note that that was free sunshine up your kilt. Love the big brass pin, by the way...And note also, Mr. Magic-Logic only asked you questions on my blog. Yep; we got it there, son.
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:10am
LOL! Stardust gives no opinions here without you paying her usual $3.99 fee. You didn't' so YOU LOSE. So i'll let Uncle Albert speak to it:
And, yes; the poster is still on the wall down-cellar; both my kids had learning disablilities, and he was dyslexic...so...there is that informing his opinion.
Okay, okay...you can both be Mr. Magics as long as ya don't pimp me too very much for my forced dependence on right brain functions.
(Man; the birds are in Radical Courtship mode here...crashin' into the windows in their haste to mate...)
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:08am
Yes, I believe I just saw a couple of colleagues crash into my office window a moment ago...happening all over the place about this time it seems, and on a multi-species level.
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:14am
What sorta people do you work with?? I thought that's what office parties were for! And dag-nabbit; how'm I s'posed to get the taxes done with all this goofin' around and jocularity??
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:38am
Errr...the human kind
?
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:49am
Remember "Ghostbusters"? This exchange brought to mind the Bill Murray line from that movie wherein he is trying to articulate the true dimensions of the threat posed by the ghosts: "...dogs and cats, living together...mass hysteria!"
I think the judges have now officially ruled me so far OT from I-P that I will be suspended from the thread indefinitely if I do not cease and desist at once. Or maybe that's just me internalizing what I imagine they might think. Although...the conflicts between the Ghostbusters and the ghosts, on the one hand, and the Israelis and the Palestinians, on the other, might be seen as bearing some striking similarities to one another...
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:38am
I would have to remember more of Ghostbusters to grab onto the similarities, but I can almost imagine that, given the now generational history of the I/P conflict, that having some Ghostbusters involved might help the road to peace. ;o)
Now go smash into some windows with gusto, AD. It's spriiiiiiiing!
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 12:21pm
When I was working closely with the disability advocacy community many moons ago on the Americans with Disabilities Act, it was amazing the stuff I'd learn about which politician or which famous person had which disabilities, or had family members with disabilities, etc. I think the idea was to take that 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon thing and turn everyone into a disability rights advocate. They were really good at it.
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:17am
El Baradei is a pandering politician. woopdeedoo. He's like the Mitt Romney of Egypt.
hah.
He's also out of the loop.
That said I dunno how much anti-Israeli pandering would do for a pol in Egypt right now. I suspect from my reading that most Egyptians don't give a shit about Gazans right now just like they don't care much about Libya or Libyans. They got their own serious problems right now and aren't used to dealing with them without a dictator. As far as politicians trying to distract them by riling up emotions about outside enemies attacking neighbors: been there done that, it grew tiresome. I've read that many, including the military, don't want to be involved in Libya much precisely because there's still hundreds of thousands of Egyptian workers there and they want them to stay there, safely of course, but not come back and add to the unemployment. Likewise, I don't think Palestinians bringing their problems to Egypt, whatever they happen to be at the time, would find much support.
by artappraiser on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 5:29pm
OK, I finally tracked down the Al-Watan Donya story, or at least what they posted on their website. I then used Google's auto-translate function. As I suspected, "I'd declare war" is what the sensationalist headline-writer decided the interview needed. The bit of ElBaradei they actually quote just talks about opening the Rafah border crossing and consulting other Arab states about a joint reaction. Unless there's more red meat in the print version of the interview, ElBaradei didn't say what he's been quoted as saying. Which made no sense for a would-be presidential candidate, even one who was trying to pander.
http://www.alwatanvoice.com/arabic/news/2011/04/01/172451.html
You then have to click the Translate button.
by acanuck on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 7:46pm
'Universal translator', ay yi yi. Please let me emote about your question upthread:
BECAUSE THE ORIGINAL LINK WAS FROM THE FREAKING NEW YORK TIMES!!!!
Pardon me for yelling. I am under extreme duress, and have been alternately shaking my head in incredulity at our collective fuqued-up-edness, and banging it into walls. I did need that release.
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 9:07pm
I'm happy you got your release, stardust. When you asked whether I thought NYT was engaging in selective editing, I assumed you were still talking about the alleged ElBaradei quote, which was all we'd been discussing at that point. No, I've got no serious problems with the article you cited to kick off the thread.
by acanuck on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 9:34pm
My fault I got the questions confused. It's hard sometimes when I've been reading, blogging and commenting elsewhere to keep these threads straight.
I will continue to kick my own arse until it's time for bed; it's been one of those days when everything I touched I messed up. Some days are like that, but as the I Ching sometimes says: No Blame.
Thanks for letting me scream. ;o)
by we are stardust on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 9:43pm
Thanks for tracking it down, AC. Much appreciated.
by Obey on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 9:55pm
Glad you also thought it was worth straightening out. Right-wing blogs are all irate over ElBaradei's supposed threat, and it's just smoke and mirrors. Al-Watan didn't even interview the guy; they just cribbed something off an Egyptian TV show and stuck a tabloid-style head on it. Ynet ran with it, conservative bloggers elaborated on it, and before we know it some Tea Party congressman will be demanding that ElBaradei be put on the terrorist no-fly list. Ah journalism, I hardly knew ya.
by acanuck on Wed, 04/06/2011 - 11:33pm