MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Merkel the latest to rebuke Washington over NSA spying while US relationships in the Middle East are also unravelling
By Dan Roberts and Paul Lewis in Washington, theguardian.com, 24 Oct., 2013
International anger over US government surveillance has combined with a backlash against its current Middle East policy to leave President Obama increasingly isolated from many of his key foreign allies, according to diplomats in Washington [....]
Also see:
NSA monitored calls of 35 world leaders after US official handed over contacts
By James Ball, theguardian.com, 24 Oct., 2013
• Agency given more than 200 numbers by government official
• NSA encourages departments to share their 'Rolodexes'
• Surveillance produced 'little intelligence', memo acknowledges
Comments
The Lede, Oct. 24, 10:10 am
Read more…
by artappraiser on Thu, 10/24/2013 - 6:42pm
If this was the worst thing the U.S. government did, I'd be very happy.
by Aaron Carine on Thu, 10/24/2013 - 9:43pm
When Snowden gave the NSA files to the media, the idea was to let the American public know what the NSA was doing to spy on them. The most recent releases have been about actions against foreign governments, not US citizens. The reaction of most US citizens is not to criticize Obama because US citizens suspect that foreign governments spy on them. The US public is having the focus taken off a personal sense of invasion, the privacy invasion is " mostly" going on overseas.
Some of the reaction of foreign governments is probably theater for play overseas. The foreign leaders probably know that Obama can document that foreign governments spy on the US. The WaPo reported that Pakistani officials played a direct role in drone target selection in Pakistan. I'm not sure that any party has clean hands.
Foreign governments spy on the Us as we learned during the summer when the first reports of US spying on Europe occurred. A Middle Eastern government aids the US in using drones.US citizens may still be having their privacy invaded, but that is no longer the main topic of discussion.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 12:24am
As someone who lives in a foreign country, I have trouble explaining to my neighbors why we should be able to do economic espionage on them at will just because we're America.
Chanting "9/11! 9/11!" goes only so far - they had their own atrocities and pushed off rampant government surveillance. "Trust us, we're the good guys - we're protecting you!" also doesn't get a lot of nods.
A "they do it too" excuse is pretty pitiful - US espionage is in a completely different league, using the resources of the by-far largest world defense org at $700 billion a year and our several other secret orgs.
by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 12:40am
Is your position that other countries can do economic espionage on the a United States and that should be considered just the routine course of business? Should the US be able to take any counter-measures if foreign governments are conducting espionage?
I would suspect that the United States is interested in what Israel plans via Iran, for example. Should there be no espionage against Israel, an ally with a head of state who openly declared that he wanted Romney to win? Should there be no espionage against Iran even though the new head of state appears more moderate?
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:24am
I always thought the releases were about surveillance run amok not just about abuses against Americans. The rational for the unprecedented surveillance is that it is needed to track terrorists. I fail to see how tapping Merkel's phone protects us against terrorists. I'd be furious if Germany was listening in on Obama's phone and as PP pointed out, I doubt that any other country has that capability.
By the way, I do care about the rights and freedoms of citizens of other countries, both democratic allies and those citizens of repressive regimes. I thought that was what it meant by American exceptionalism. I'm a kinda funny guy, I'm not black but I care about the rights of black people, I'm not gay but I care about the rights of gays, I'm not a woman but I care about the rights of women, and I'm not German or French etc but I care about the rights of Germans etc. What about you? Do you care about freedom and civil liberties for everyone or just for your little in group?
So far every document Snowden has released has been in the public interest imo, and none have damaged the US except in ways it needed to be damaged.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 1:04am
The best way to curtail the invasion of privacy by the NSA and other organizations is to start at home. When the ACLU and the Electronic Freedom Foundation learned internet services like Verizon had been providing data to the NSA, they could now formulate lawsuits directed at attacking the abuse of surveillance power. Prior to the knowledge of Internet services being involved with the NSA. The ACLU and the EFF had no legal standing to file a lawsuit. The only way things will change is through the courts.
NSA wings will have to be clipped by legal action. To put it in perspective,I can be upset about Stop and Frisk in NYC. Stop and Frisk only came under more limits with court action. I could posture and say that the US should not be spying on US citizens or on foreign countries, but only legal action will change things.Once a court case begins, there is the possibility of addressing how US citizens are monitored overseas as well as in the US. NSA can be paired back, but it will not happen in the political arena.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:16am
Stop and frisk had to be stopped by the court because Bloomberg liked it and wanted it and the NYC legislature didn't stop him. Do you support Bloomberg?
NSA abuse may have to be stopped by the courts because Obama likes it. Its possible that congress will reign it in i.e. stop Obama. Just as Bloomberg could have ended stop and frisk anytime he wanted, Obama could reign in the NSA anytime he decides to. He doesn't have to be forced to do it by congress or the courts. He likes it, he wants it, he's not going to stop unless forced to. I don't support Obama in this area just as I didn't support Bloomberg's stop and frisk program.
Your refrain about needing the courts to stop NSA abuse has two possible explanations. You don't see this unprecedented surveillance as abuse or because you're a partisan hack you're unwilling to place the blame where it lies, with Obama.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 3:06am
I don't recall Bloomberg ordering an external review of his program. Obama such reviews in place. The external review includes an advisor to the ACLU. We expect the internal review to be weak. The external review may be more potent. The court is required to hopefully put teeth in restraints required by force of legal action.
Your bias hides the differences from you.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 10:40am
There are three cases pending in district courts. Another case dealing with the FISA court was filed with SCOTUS.
The courts have to be involved.If Obama said that he was going to fully implement changes suggested by either review we would still need legally defined limits to have some means of enforcing any limits that were set.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 12:07pm
I'm not happy if every major world leader is pissed at our leader, but I'm not sure yet if it's all mostly kabuki or not. I suspect it isn't now with Saudi Arabia, for one example.
Everyone was still basically willing to talk and meet with George Bush, even in the worst days.
by artappraiser on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 7:59am
Does everyone know the '35 leaders memo' cited by The Guardian is from 2006?
AA's link says:
I would assume that the 2009 encryption step was taken due to Bush administration bugs, and that the Germans have apparently been OK since the 2009.
Why is Snowden releasing stuff from the Bush administration, and why is Obama being blamed for Bush/Cheney admin actions ?
We don't need Snowden to know Bush also lied us into a bloody war, ignored warnings pre-9/11, blathered on about drones of death, took CIPRO before the first anthrax letter was mailed, tortured Iraqi's and lied about that too. The 2006 Bush memo is probably the least of his crimes, and if there was a system set up to do this stuff, it wasn't the Obama administration that started it, it was Bush.
by NCD on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 12:59am
I don't care who started it. I care about if and when it stopped. If the WH can issue a statement, "The United States is not monitoring and will not monitor the communications of Chancellor Merkel." without damaging national security they can certainly declassify and release the memo that stopped the monitoring. There'd be a date on that memo too. Then we'd see if it was All Bush's Fault.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 1:15am
The Obama administration has already affirmed they are not monitoring communications of Chancellor Merkel.
It does kinda make a difference who was President when the memo was written.
by ANON.NCD (not verified) on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 1:37am
You believe Obama was aware of or condoned every policy, memo or action initiated during the 8 years of the catastrophic Bush administration? Give me a break. It is not a wild assumption that the 2006 memo cited above was never seen or brought to the attention of the Oval Office until it went public this week.
I suppose you believe unless Obama produces, from Jan. 21, 2009, a 'stop the 2006 35 leader phone tapping Bush policy' memo you will assume Obama has been holding secret sessions discussing Merkel's phone conversations?
I would say you are either nuts or are underestimating what was and still is on his plate as far as priorities since taking office. The incompetence, intransigence partisanship and failure to do it's own duty of oversight that Congress has been guilty of, primarily from the GOP, but with Democratic help, is really the main institution to blame.
by NCD on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 12:27pm
This is really a bullshit post, nothing but an ignorant rant. Of course I don't believe any of those asinine things. Ordinarily I don't even bother to respond to such crap.
Of course Obama didn't see every memo of the Bush era. Like most ordinary citizens or low ranking members of congress he had no idea. As a newly elected president I'm sure he got a top secret briefing paper detailing the activities of the NSA. If he didn't read it maybe he should watch less TV. He's reported to spend at least 3 hours a day with his eyes glued to the boob tube, mostly sports. You know what? I wouldn't even consider dating a woman who wasted more than 3 hours everyday watching the idiot box.
I expected Obama to do a re-evaluation of many of the Bush policies when he took office. Something as big as listening in on the phones of 35 country's leaders, many of whom are allies, definitely would have come up in that evaluation as would many of the other NSA abuses. Since running against Bush policies weas a big part of his campaign if he didn't bother to do any re-evaluation of those policies he certainly can't claim innocence. I do blame him for continuing Bush policies. Best case scenario, incompetence.
Of course I don't believe anything as stupid as Obama sitting around discussing Merkel's phone conversations. No one but an brainless idiot would suggest such a thing and I'm not a brainless idiot. Virtually nothing that happens in government is without some sort of paper trail. Its clear that at one point at least 35 leaders were spied on so if its stopped as Obama claimed he could easily find out when it ended.
That he chose such a limited denial is telling. "Is not monitoring, will not monitor." Merkel did what any reasonably intelligent person would, She asked, "have you monitored." He refused to answer that question, likely because if he did the next question would be, "When did you stop?" My guess, when it became an international issue a few days ago.
The president has almost unlimited authority to do less spying than the law allows. Instead Obama is streching the limits. Obama doesn't need oversight to reign in the NSA, just as he didn't need congress to stop Bush era torture. What's his excuse? Please stop me, I hate it but I just can't help myself? So yes I blame him.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 7:56pm
Benghaaaaazi has made it very clear that any Kenyan Usurper 'terror coddling executive order' markedly clamping down on NSA information gathering would be grist for the right to attack, hoping, of course, for another dead body somewhere to investigate.
I have no doubt, however, that if aware of it, which we are unsure of as to a when, Obama would, on his own, at least stop phone monitoring of Merkel or other foreign leaders.
Giving what date it 'stopped', would do nothing to quell the controversy, whether from foreign leaders, TV News or internet bloggers. Even if he said it stopped on Jan 21, 2009 there would be complaints he didn't, couldn't prove it, or that he is just trying to blame Bush. The conference AA mentions that is being discussed would hopefully serve to resolve the issues.
And phone number monitoring by nerds in Utah, and torture, are a totally overblown analogy. If you think they are 'similar' maybe you should try out both on yourself.
by NCD on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:44pm
Benghaaaaazi? It seems you're saying Obama has done nothing about NSA abuse because of politics. That might be true. I've been saying Obama is spineless since the primary in 2007.
Knowing the date might not stop the controversy but it would at least stop the constant Obamabot chant of All Bush's Fault. That sycophantic refrain has gotten a bit annoying after all these years.
I never claimed that torture and NSA abuse are similar in practice or severity. But NSA abuse and torture are similar to the extent that both are within the president's control and don't need congressional approval to be limited by Obama. Just as Obama came into office and immediately claimed to stop all US torture without consulting congress so he could have reigned in NSA abuse without consulting congress if he wanted to. One of the main jobs of a chief executive is to chose cabinet level executives and officers who share his vision and to direct and monitor their work to ensure they do their job as he wants.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 2:28am
Thanks for pointing that out. Guess I'm becoming a sloppy reader.
Still, Germany and France just in the last few days appear to have gotten real pissed about something, enough to act on it:
And it was only a few weeks ago that Hollande was talking like Obama's best buddy.
by artappraiser on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:02am
Thanks for the link, as I say above, I feel Congress is mostly to blame for not doing it's job on policy over reach by the NSA.
Since changes to intelligence policy may affect the lives, safety and/or privacy of the American public, changes to these policies need to be bipartisan. There has been none of that, and also zero accountability as to oversight from Congress. Since 2010 the sole GOP goal has been purely to 'stop' Obama.
by NCD on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 12:47pm
If programs are hidden from Congress, if the administration refuses to hand over requested doc, if administration officials directly lied to congress, if congress is not briefed - what ar congress' options? Wyden et Al have been complaining about this for years. These are executive branch programs being abused but you blame congress. Shouldn't the exec branch police itself first? Isnt Obama the constitutional lawyer? Or do we blame the police for crimes not criminals because they didn't catch them?
by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 4:56am
Thanks for pointing out the date, it puts a totally different light on things.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:48am
by artappraiser on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:52am
There are two reviews of NSA actions underway.One is an in-house NSA project, the other is an outside commission that includes Richard Clarke. The administration was reluctance to dig a no-spying pact with Germany for fear that other European nations would make changes. Bottom line, I do think that Obama is working towards changing how the NSA operates.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 9:48am
The administration was reluctance to dig a no-spying pact with Germany for fear that other European nations would make changes.
The NYTimes article from late yesterday by Sanger & Mazzetti basically says he basically preferred to ignore the problem but now may be forced:
Allegation of U.S. Spying on Merkel Puts Obama at Crossroads
and this new piece filed today by Smale from Berlin is confirmation:
Germany and France Propose Talks With U.S. to Rein In Spying
My concern with this thread was the specific one of deteriorating relations with U.S. allies.Yes that happened because of NSA-related concerns. While they may be an answer to folks concerned about the civil liberties issues, planned investigations into NSA programs aren't really an answer here. He's got trust problems to fix with other leaders, pronto, that's the story I am looking at here. NSA investigations aren't a fix for that
It was one thing when it was basically one country, Brazil, screaming bloody murder and deciding to cancel meetings, but now it's far more than just one.
by artappraiser on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 6:05pm
I share your concern about the state of relationships with foreign leaders. I do not understand the glee some are showing about the deterioration in the relationship.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 7:39pm
So who of any importance is enjoying that we can't get along with Germany? The country we once dropped raisins in to kids in to show our good will....
by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:45pm
The Banana Republics.
by Oxy Mora on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:54pm
Obviously no one of any importance is gleeful.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 8:56pm
Included the photo illustration because it was obviously meant to add elaboration to the author's message.
by artappraiser on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 9:06pm
Deustche Welle English trying to figure the U.S. out and basically concluding from several interviews that we don't give a shit about their outrage & think it's childish, among other things:
by artappraiser on Fri, 10/25/2013 - 9:14pm
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 2:10pm
If the leaks mean that some Middle Easter countries, for example, are providing information on threats to the US, I'm not sure why Snowden thought that this was an abuse by US intelligence services. That sort of leak would be damaging to US security
Of course, there may be some other type of leak that they are expecting. The recent revelation about Pakistan and drone attacks may just be the tip of a much larger iceberg.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 2:29pm
I must admit that it's certainly enticing to wonder about who we are talking about here, and what secret agreements that would be embarassing to the parties involved.
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 3:06pm
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 2:20pm
For those interested, the official State Dept. response is summed up their Friday press briefing; Spokesperson Paki opened it pointing to the op-ed they put in U.S.A. Today by Lisa Monaco and Paki elaborated this way before opening up to questions:
Basically, I take that as "mum's the word" for public consumption unless they feel forced to talk about something. We aren't going to hear anything straightforward (along the lines of denial or affirmation or apology) until the official reviews are in, nor are we going to hear about meetings with allies unless the allies decide to talk about it. So it will all be reading tea leaves from leakers and attempting to judge responses and appearances of allies and such.
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 3:01pm
Der Spiegel claims proof Merkel's cell phone may have been tapped since 2002 through this last June:
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 8:21pm
Bad P.R about Obama coming out of Germany. (ironic the Tea Partiers won't believe it, because if it was about a GOP president, they'd like it, along the lines of "Freedom Fries"):
Frenemies: Spying on Allies Fits Obama's Standoffish Profile
by Gregor Peter Schmitz, Spiegel Online International, Oct. 24
by artappraiser on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 8:24pm
This aspect of Obama is the most surprising to me. Back in 07 when I was criticizing him and supporting Hillary I'd have guessed that Obama would be much more liked by both the dems in congress and leaders abroad. Before the election I considered one of Obama's primary skills was getting people to like him, even those who disagreed with him.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/26/2013 - 11:51pm
I suspected it after reading The Audacity of Hope, but then the worldwide Obama-mania made me second guess myself for quite some time. But then I saw an extensive interview with him on TV that hit me like a load of bricks this way: "this guy is really Michael Dukakis reincarnated" and the speeches are just highly prepared and rehearsed performances that are not natural for him. Because he was droning on and on with each answer, as if the interviewer wasn't even there, pretty self-involved and also emotionless, so much so that it was really hard for me to even pay attention, and I'm someone quite tolerant of policy wonkishness. I remember mentioning it in a discussion on TPMCafe because it really hit me (though I hid it at the end of a long thread where Hillary supporters were congregating, reluctant to have to incur the wrath of Obama lovers.) And when the Ryan Lizza article on his Chicago years came out, it just confirmed it for me, that he was a loner, that while he's a good writer and thinker, he's really lacking true charismatic qualities. And I thought, well, he's gonna be a Woodrow Wilson type...maybe that's what we need right now. Suffice it to say, no more mulligans for Wilson/Dukakis types coming from me. I now think that being a people person to the extreme is pretty much a job requirement with the presidency.
by artappraiser on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 1:28am
If the spying has been going on since 2002, I doubt that the headlines would be different if Bush got caught.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 1:36am
I disagree, I think they would be playing up the crass, tacky and reckless 'mercan cowboy picture they had already started to draw from experience.
by artappraiser on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 1:48am
Here is the standoff-ish guy at Sandy Hook. A prior post noted how Obama and Hollander were getting along well before these revelations. I'm not buying the characterization of Obama by the journalist.
Obama should have ended the surveillance,
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 11:14am
None of us here have any personal experience with Obama so how can we know. We have to read journalists and attempt to gain info from these biased sources. Yet the story of Obama standoffishness is so well know and common that it crosses the political spectrum. Left, right, and centrist journalist all report his lack of relationships with dems and republicans in congress, and now, foreign leaders. The story you're disputing here is not just one journalist nor some right wing crusade.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 2:42pm
Obama will have to do a great deal of fence mending because surveillance was not ended. If he were an extrovert, the complaints would be that he was a fraud hiding an evil personality. Clinton would have caught heat and Bush would have caught heat.
Even if Snowden leaks include information on the activities of foreign governments spying on US citizens, the US has to apologize and demonstrate that the surveillance on European citizens has ended.
There would be a personality analysis of any President who was at the wheel when the NSA abuse was discovered. I think a characteristic of the offending President is found and used as a part of the reason foreign leaders were upset.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 4:54pm
I'm a bit amazed by that - Jon Stewart described him as a bit like a "dickish boyfriend" after his "likeable enough" comment, the "sweetie" rejoinder was rather tonedeaf, and overall he seemed to be pretty churlish when countered.
Meanwhile Hillary had that "women make lists" thing going where she'd get back to people she promised in keeping up relationships, and her time in the Senate seemed much about playing a low-key backbencher and building bridges. It's more in the press & Fox news cycle where she attracts venom, not people she knows.
by Anonymous PP (not verified) on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 6:34am
I'm amazed that you attach importance to an off hand throw away comment during a fierce no holds barred fight for the nomination. "You're likable enough" meant nothing to me.
In case you didn't realize, Jon Stewart is a comedian. As he stated many times his main goal is to make people laugh. At times his satire is spot on. At other times he uses all the comedic tricks, exaggeration, caricature, shock, etc. He's also not always right even when he's doing "straight" satire.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 3:33pm
Didnt attach such importance, thanks, but then again, i'm not the one surprised by obama's lack of people skills 5 years later.
PS - I don't take Stewart as gospel either - just used an example that folks might remember. Perhaps Obama's attempted joke wasn't dickish and Stewart was having a bad day.
by Anonymous pp (not verified) on Mon, 10/28/2013 - 2:30am
In this day and age, I tend to think that the problem for Merkel is more that the spying was made public. AFAIK, everyone is spying on everyone else without regard to their being allies...assuming they have the capability. For all we know, Germany is spying on the US and tapping Obama's phone calls.
I assume that all these leaders assume or know they are being spied upon. But of course once it's made public, they have to act shocked and outraged. This became a big deal around Israel spying on the U.S. Since no one is a perfect ally, it behooves other imperfect allies to spy on everyone, enemies, frenemies, and friends alike.
A little hard to see how this helps Snowden's cause, however. Unless his goal is to undo ALL snooping.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 4:22pm
People are not the same. "They" aren't just like "us." There are historical experiences and cultural differences between countries that led to differences in views and policies. A large portion of Germany's population lived under the Stazi and privacy rights are much more important to them than they seems to be here. I haven't lived in Germany but the consensus I've taken away from my reading is that Germany has some of the most comprehensive and strict privacy rights of any country. Merkel grew up in East Germany under communism and its secret police so its likely that her outrage is real.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 4:40pm
Perhaps...
Or her experience with the brutality of East Germany might endow her with a certain cynicism as regards what friends and enemies do.
In any event, as the head of a country, I would think she'd be savier about how countries treat other countries.
And then there are all the other "shocked" heads of state...
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 10/27/2013 - 4:50pm
NYTimes' government sources say NSA stopped eavesdropping on Merkl only after Snowden's theft made it clear that it might be discovered, not because the president had anything to do with stopping it. And there is admission that her phone calls were recorded basically because there's no American law against it. And Dennis Blair, Obama's first director of national intelligence, was willing to be quoted as saying he has no sympathy for the complaints.
Excerpt from Obama May Ban Spying on Heads of Allied States
by Mark Landler and David E. Sanger, New York Times, Oct. 29, 2013:
Elsewhere in the article are quotes from Peter Schaar, the German federal data protection commissioner. He makes clear the attitude of those like Dennis Blair is what is angering Germany, because the NSA has broken U.S. promises to follow German law when operating in Germany.
Also of interest in the article is that Senator Feinstein and the administration are not exactly on the same page:
Overall, Feinstein seems quite willing to show anger at NSA about this, while the Obama administration curiously still does not seem to want to project a "heads will roll" attitude on this even while entertaining a law against continuing to do it.
by artappraiser on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 1:07pm
NSA tells the House Committee that they did not spy on the European people, that European leaders did and gave them the info. And then Alexander and Clapper strongly defended spying on European leaders:
by artappraiser on Tue, 10/29/2013 - 7:58pm