MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
By Jordan Fabian @ TheHill.com, July 16, 12:12 pm
[....] In an extraordinary scene broadcast live to a worldwide audience, Trump refused when asked to condemn Russia’s meddling in the election and complained instead that the allegations have created doubts about the legitimacy of his win over Democrat Hillary Clinton.
“He just said it’s not Russia,” repeating Putin’s denials of involvement in the U.S. election. “I will say this, I don’t see any reason why it would be.”
Trump emphasized there had been no evidence of collusion and complained the FBI had not examined servers belonging to the Clinton campaign and brought up emails belonging to Clinton [....]
Comments
Cross link to my previous related news thread
TRUMP OPENS HIS ARMS TO RUSSIA. HIS ADMINISTRATION CLOSES ITS FIST.
where in the main article, the NYTimes reported this
and which includes this Sec. of State spin from last night:
And to an earlier thread
GOP GROWING NERVOUS TRUMP’S POLICIES WILL PLUNGE PARTY INTO PERIL
which includes this
And to my thread on the NATO meeting:
AFTER TIRADE AGAINST ALLIES, TRUMP BACKS NATO AGENDA ON RUSSIA
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 12:57pm
A cross-link to PP's news thread also is useful here:
MORE DETAILS ON THOSE RUSSIAN HACK INDICTMENTS
at it includes tidbits like this from Sunday
and all of John McCain's July 13 tweets on the matter HERE
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 1:42pm
Film at Eleven:
by moat on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 1:44pm
Yeah. Speaking of history, thinking like a historian, big picture. What strikes me now is how he consistently and flagrantly counters the actions of his own cabinet. Exactly like a dictator, keeps them scrambling, or like with Kristjen Nielsen, in fear and trembling. (The way she looked at the press conference of the signing of the executive order about the detained kids was actually shocking to me.) Up until now, a lot of this just gets dimissed as "oh it's just Trump being Trump", don't take it seriously, the real guys are running the country. But do the real guys have any real spine, while they may not respect him, are they doing nothing blatant out of fear and respect of the office he holds? It really shouldn't go on. What the heck is big shot tough guy Mattis doing being quiet in deference to the office of the president? Does he want to go down as a wimpy enabler of all time?
Is this a Constitutional flaw with an Executive branch as big as ours is now? Are they really all there, all those employees, all that expense to be obedient loyal servants to one elected person?
We have to rely on complaining leakers to the press?
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 2:01pm
What strikes me now is how he consistently and flagrantly counters the actions of his own cabinet. Exactly like a dictator, [...]
Bingo.
by barefooted on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 2:30pm
This administration is less a "team of rivals" and more a "confederacy of dunces." Ackerman at the Beast has already asked the Intel chiefs whether they are going to resign since Trump just stuffed all their work on Russian election interference into a babushka doll and set it on fire. It remains to be seen how much the conflicts within the Executive will play out.
In terms of the Constitutional separation of powers, it is the collusion between House and Senate Republicans with the POTUS that is the greatest challenge to the republic articulated by Madison and Hamilton in the Federalist papers. They did not foresee a circumstance where all the ambitions in each of those agencies would align like Three Lemons on a slot machine in Atlantic City.
That is why the third part of the separation of power pie is so important now. Breathing from an aqualung is not a long term solution but may give the diver a chance to reach the surface.
by moat on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 4:01pm
It was hard to tell the difference between Trey Gowdy and Louie Gohmert during the joint intelligence committee hearing last week.Neither man asked reasonable questions during the hearing. The intelligence community realize neither the President or Congress want accurate analysis of the Russia hack.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 4:54pm
Good observation. Gowdy has been trying to separate himself from the Ever Trumpers but keeps ending up down in the trenches they have dug. Because of his part of the oversight role, Gowdy has seen much more evidence than his comrades. The guy's brain must be exploding in real time.
by moat on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 5:19pm
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 1:44pm
Here's the current WaPo and NYTimes headlines for the record:
Trump offers little pushback to Putin’s denial of interference
Trump casts doubt on U.S. intelligence findings that Russia interfered in 2016 election
President Trump called the ongoing probe into the interference a “disaster for our country.” He added, after his summit with Vladimir Putin, that the autocrat gave him a “very powerful” denial. “I don’t see any reason why” Russia would have interfered, he said.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Trump, at Putin’s Side, Questions U.S. Intelligence on 2016 Election
Says Putin Was ‘Powerful in His Denial’ of Meddling
By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS 33 minutes ago
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 2:11pm
Current top of FoxNews.com, copied without alteration
How Breitbart is spinning it:
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 2:19pm
P.S. FWIW Fox is using this photo at the top:
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 2:25pm
Fox News hosts take Trump to task after Putin summit
By Jason Schwartz @ Politico.com, Updated 07/16/2018 04:00 PM EDT
more
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 11:18pm
Michael Cohen:
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 11:22pm
James Comey:
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 11:25pm
More from Comey tonight, recounted @ TheHill.com
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 12:58am
Preet Bharara replying to Sen. Jeff Flake:
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 11:28pm
Former Congressperson Joe Walsh does conservative talk show now, says he will always be a Tea Partier, but today calls Trump a traitor, instructs Twitter followers to speak out:
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 11:35pm
John McCain pinned his Tweet to the top of his page:
Mitt Romney:
Newt Gingrich:
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 11:44pm
Hillary Clinton:
by artappraiser on Mon, 07/16/2018 - 11:45pm
On Dan Coats:
Michael Steele:
Gov. John Kasich:
Fmr. Gov. Christie Whitman:
Gen. Barry McCaffrey:
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 12:44am
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 12:45am
Helpful transcript of Trump's answer on whether he believes Putin or U.S. Intelligence in an image tweeted by Canadian reporter Daniel Dale.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 1:13am
Some tabloid covers:
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 1:58am
Thanks - looking at RealClearPolitics they keep the pro-/anti-Trump ratio balanced, so it's hard to see if there was a direct hit. In this case, it looks like Trump's ship is taking on water. Of course that's New York - how's it playing around the country, especially them flyover bits?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 2:22am
I would think Fox News is key, and Hannity is not the same thing as Fox News, I'm talking day time. Because it's blaring in a lot of bank waiting lines and dentist and physical therapist offices and the like allover the country, exactly the kind of places where people who don't often pay attention to news actually stop for a few minutes and take in some news.
To be honest about my own interests, one thing I'm thinking: why would any news junkie care what the garden variety Democratic politicians or pundits are opining about it? (I am tempted to use Basquiat's famous graffiti tag: SAMO. It's not news unless one of them switched to supporting him, and I'm interested in news.) For something, anything to happen, except SAMO, there's got to be some movement on the right side of the aisle.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 2:39am
So it's suicide watch - not to stop, just to chronicle...
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 5:14am
lasted less than 12 hrs. NATCH. Another NEVERMIND.
AS ALWAYS when are we going to learn: grown ups back in charge forced him back on the podium with notes, backtrack, flipflop, something anything....
20 min ago
Trump says he misspoke during press conference: "I said the word would instead of wouldn’t" ETC.
From CNN's Kevin Liptak LIVE UPDATES
I think it's important for all to see this: when he does this flip-flop thing, when the staff gets their way to make him temper himself, this gives the Congressional GOP who might be forced by circumstance or whatever to actually act, this gives them another grace period. All they want is enough grace periods to get through to November elections. Then they will feel free to be more open in disagreement or even some to impeachment. I don't think so many are that turned off by the idea of a President Pence, that's the thing.
It also gives any wavering Trump fans the ability to say this back to Fox News complainers and John McCain types: what's the big deal? was much ado about nothing, we get him, the "take him seriously but not literally" thing.
We are back to this: waiting for Mueller.
In the meantime, as long as the economy continues okay (which admittedly, that is iffy with the tariff situation), outrage will remain with the majority of voters that voice disapproval of his performance as president with the large minority that are ok with it.
I see it like this: little has changed except that fewer Congressional GOP trust him. They will wait for Mueller and worry about November in the meantime. Every time the grownups at the White House get him to temper himself, it gives them another grace period. It's almost August, after all. Just a few months to go.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 3:41pm
good point by Abramson, reinforces that of course the primary underlying problem is still there and "they" are going to have to keep a tight rein on him, no more real commander-in-chief stuff:
and if "they" do that, he will undoubtedly get squirrely and troublesome even if he is not still indeed up to nasty things with enemies...
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 5:34pm
It's the same as it ever was ...
Clearly Trump says what he needs to say with Putin in close proximity, then when home adjusts his tone accordingly - to a point. Does anyone doubt that Putin understood that it may be a necessary domestic adjustment and gave his approval? Trump's words today changed nothing about everything he both said outright and clearly implied during his press conference in Helsinki, though you're right that Republicans are hoping for borrowed time.
by barefooted on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 12:07am
But what was the point of this summit? - Putin got Trump to grovel, which seems like endgame to Trump's usefulness. Why was it so important to meet in private? Who gains by this? Yes, Trump's translator can now testify - though if I'm Mueller I'm wary about calling someone i've no background on who can be a setup. But still - was this summit supposed to be a win? Aside from a fleeting PR lap promo for a guy who got 90%+ in his rrcent election with the opposition all banned, there's no upside and lits of downside. It may kill Brrxit, the EU will unite more, and it futzes with the magical mysterious Russian Mideast deals. So was Putin just too cocky, he decided to wring the last juice from his gambit, or there's a benefit I'm missing?
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 12:34am
Putin may believe any of the following: (1) Trump would surely not be dumb enough to perform in the craven way he did, which could only diminish Trump's usefulness to Putin. Wrong. (2) Putin actually doesn't mind or may even want Trump to self-destruct sooner, as he may feel he has the goods on Pence as well, and Trump is just much less reliable right now. (3) Putin might even be contemplating finding a way to try to force Trump out prior to the November elections, so as to attempt to reduce the energy behind electing a Democratic Congress. Just blackmail him into resigning before the elections if Trump has become more of a liability than an asset to him. This might increase the chance of retaining the current supine, treasonous Republican Congress, which can be counted on not to lift a finger to deal with election integrity, and may well be useful to Putin in other ways as well, certainly more useful than a Democratic Congress would be.
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 1:48pm
People who support Democrats crave revenge. They also sense blood in the water. Republicans have to go. If Trump is gone and Pence is in office, the push to elect Democrats will still be there. The Russians may be able to alter votes cast electronically, so states need paparazzi ballots as backups.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 2:01pm
BTW, I picked up a copy of Dyson's What Truth Sounds Like, which I recall you mentioning. Have you read it yet?
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 2:44pm
I have skimmed through a lot, but will do serious reading this weekend.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 2:53pm
Several thoughts ...
First, Putin is not nearly as confident as he needs people to believe, especially Russians, but more importantly world-wide. A summit with Trump after sanctions and global condemnation puts him where he wants to be (think Kim Jong-un with pecks).
Secondly, no, the translator will not be called to testify. At the very least, Trump will use Executive Privilege to prevent it; and how definitive would it really be? A translator's job is not to digest and infer meaning from the words they translate, after all. Not to mention the fact that they likely don't even remember everything that was said. Ain't gonna happen.
Finally, I think it might have been you who originally wrote somewhere around here that what Putin really wants is to find out not only what our intelligence community already knows but how they're going about finding their information. The "offer" from him to Trump to help, the idea of Russian and American investigators working together - that's the pay-off, and was likely the underlying purpose of the one-on-one. And it appears our president might be considering it; stay tuned.
by barefooted on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 7:56pm
To be clear, on the breaking: NYTimes:Trump Backtracks on Russian Meddling, Under Fire, He Says He Accepts U.S. Intelligence Reports
By EILEEN SULLIVAN and MARK LANDLER 2:42 PM ET
WaPo: BREAKING NEWS
Trump says he accepts intelligence findings on Russian interference in 2016
Seeking to quell mounting criticism after the Helsinki summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin, President Trump said he accepts the U.S. intelligence community’s conclusion that Russia sought to influence the 2016 election.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 3:45pm
http://time.com/5339848/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-summit-transcript/
Trump’s correction makes no sense
Edit to add:
None of the 140 servers involved are missing. The DNC turned over all the data
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-missing-dnc-server-is-neither-missing-nor-a-server
2nd Edit to add:
A panel on CNN address Trump’s nonsense today
https://www.thedailybeast.com/cnn-dismantles-trumps-absurd-double-negative-defense-points-for-being-creative?ref=scroll
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 5:13pm
Absolutely nothing new about him not making sense, it's de rigeur, expected. He stays in place by not being taken literally because he doesn't actually accomplish much of anything except causing chaos. The grownups at the White House always drag back from the brink. Go back a few days to how we were separating parents from children, what happened then? (Remember when he was going to build a wall? Reform health care, and then who knew it was so complicated? Etc.)
One thing is sure now: he has no credibility as commander-in-chief. I think everyone at the Pentagon and the Senate feels that now. Remember, Congress has sanctioned Russia. And both the House and the Senate had votes in support of NATO while he was causing chaos at NATO.
This is probably how it's going to continue until November unless Mueller comes out with a report before then. Especially if the economy stays good, there's no big crash.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 4:02pm
The only hope is to energize the Democratic base by doing outreach to diverse communities.
Farmers are already being impacted by tariffs on China and immigration limiting the workforce
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/farmers-hit-hard-by-trump-policies-on-trade-immigration/
It is unlikely that Trump supporters in that group will bolt from the GOP
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 4:17pm
After this breaking, seems to me those thinking smart politically would, rather than hoping about getting Trump out of office or some kind of GOP mutiny:
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 3:53pm
P.S. That said, here's what I see as the result of all the reaction from everyone from late night comics to Fox to various GOP to Schwarzenegger: it made it easier for White House grownups to force him back from going rogue. Because he cares about people who are not on the left ridiculing him as an idiot or a loser or a puppet. If you are outraged about something where he actually has the power to do something, and treat him like he can do something, that just feeds the narcissist and the troll, he loves that kind of attention. Ridicule as not-the-genius-he-likes-to-think-he-is, not outrage, is what makes him back down. Seeing him as a strong enemy, conversely, he likes that.
Edit to add: comes to mind the whole "miserable failure" movement against Bush would work much better on Trump that it did on Bush. Calling him something like "dangerous", on the other hand, is a sort of compliment.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 4:19pm
The Trump baby balloon may be coming to the US
http://abc7chicago.com/politics/trump-baby-balloon-may-be-coming-to-the-us/3776198/
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 4:33pm
Ahnuld:
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 2:03am
more ridicule, from the late night comics: Colbert, Jimmy Kimmel, Jimmy Fallon, Trevor Noah and Seth Meyers:
Late-night hosts skewer Trump’s news conference @ WashingtonPost.com, July 17, 2 am
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 3:21am
Another "FWIW" but I do think it's good for big picture to have this input again:
A Russian newspaper editor explains how Putin made Trump his puppet
“They consider him a stupid, unstrategic politician.”
By Sean Illing @ Vox.com, July 16
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 3:00am
Vox has published a summary of the Hannity/Trump interview:
The 6 most bizarre moments from Trump’s post-Putin interview with Sean Hannity
The president claims that the Mueller investigation is driving a “wedge” between US-Russia relations.
By Jen Kirby, Jul 16, 2018, 11:52pm EDT
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 3:03am
Surprising and interesting after today's developments noted upthread:
Edit to add: certainly it would be wise for people to help with that bandwagon by contacting their reps and requesting the same for the same reason, that all this new questionable Russia stuff makes you think it is imperative now
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 5:47pm
the worry among intel people is not going away after today's developments:
Makes me wonder about the heavy duty "Deep State" conspiracy folks, how they reacted to what they saw when Pootie and The Donald got together. But I don't wonder enough to dig into that.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 5:43pm
George Will, with the #1 most popular article @ WaPo right now:
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 8:30pm
I see a lot of sites using that picture, no doubt many consciously or unconsciously recognizing the famous sad clown iconography or maybe even the ancient tragedy mask itself.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 8:40pm
How Trump retreats: Grudging apologies, plus a wink and a nod to the original insult
As the president pulled back on his statement in Helsinki, his unscripted aside and what appeared to be his handwritten addition on his script were reminiscent of other signals that he has inserted into apologies to remind his followers that he will never be the kind of politician who is managed by staffers.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 10:27pm
Guest Op-ed By William Webster @ NYTimes.com, July 17: Let Robert Mueller Do His Job
Faith in the justice system and in our intelligence agencies cannot be collateral damage in a partisan grudge match.
Mr. Webster is a former director of the F.B.I. and the C.I.A.
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 10:32pm
Trump Voters Mostly Stand by Him, but Cracks Open
Mr. Trump has said his admirers will support him through anything. His remarks on Russia have put them to the test.
By MATT FLEGENHEIMER @ NYTimes.com, 42 minutes ago
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 10:42pm
Current headline story @ TheAtlantic.com:
The White House Transcript Is Missing the Most Explosive Part of the Trump-Putin Press Conference
It’s not clear whether the omission was intended, but the meaning of a key exchange is dramatically altered as a result.
July 17, 4:32 pm
by artappraiser on Tue, 07/17/2018 - 11:05pm
WHOA! As Jolly Roger used to say "precious blood of sweet baby jesus!"
Kelly lobbied Republicans to rebuke Trump after Putin press conference: report
BY EMILY BIRNBAUM @ TheHill.com - 07/17/18 07:45 PM EDT
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 12:28am
Aside: given his pseudonym, it is apropos I thought of Jolly Roger when posting this story, as he would know a thing or two about mutiny. Mr. Christian!?
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 12:34am
Since when do elected lawmakers need a "green light" from the WH chief of staff?
by barefooted on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 12:33am
I'm with ya, but then I'm one that doesn't like that we have these political parties much less party loyalty.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 12:37am
Parties and loyalty have nothing to do with it. I've long thought that the position of chief of staff holds far too much power, but the idea that the he or she can dictate to our elected representatives how to respond to anything, much less the president, is absurd.
by barefooted on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 12:43am
intriguing nuance as usual:
How Putin and Trump Each Lied in Helsinki by Masha Gessen @ NewYorker.com, July 17, 2018
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 3:28am
Frum @ The Atlantic:The president understands the stakes of the Russia story more clearly than most of his followers/ Trump’s Crisis of Legitimacy, July 17
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 4:04am
Frum makes a good point that Trump could not afford to accept even a little bit of the investigation into Russian influence without agreeing to undercut the legitimacy of his electoral victory. But it is only a good point if Trump actually had not used the influence to his advantage.
Lady Macbeth didn't have to keep washing her hands incessantly.
Check out those strange trees.
by moat on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 6:24pm
"Trump's actions in Helsinki don't have to be treasonous to be impeachable", Ron Fein, WaPo online op ed piece, this morning (He is described as legal director of Free Speech For People and a co-author of the forthcoming book "The Constitution Demands It: The Case for the Impeachment of Donald Trump," which will be published by Melville House in August 2018.): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/made-by-history/wp/2018/07/18/donald...
by AmericanDreamer on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 2:55pm
Trump today said that he does not believe that Russia is still hacking election apparatus
https://www.vox.com/2018/7/18/17586956/trump-russia-putin-intelligence-no-coats
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 3:32pm
Yeah the flipping and flopping seems to be on a faster turnaround. Politico headline right now: Trump again defiant after rare mea culpa on Russia The president appears to be walking back his walk-back on Russia interference. It's almost like pretty soon we'll have a Trump tweet totally contradict a Trump tweet of only a few minutes earlier.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 4:21pm
Cause for impeachment is whatever congress decides it is. I personally think Trump's comb over is "criminal" and if congress agreed they could decide it's a High Crime or a Misdemeanor. In the end impeachment is political. Only if enough republicans and democrats believe it's justified will it happen. Democrats are already there but republican voters do not as yet see a sufficient cause. If Mueller comes up with a shocking revelation directly connected to Trump, not just his campaign workers, then we'll see enough republicans turn against him and impeachment will be possible. We're not there yet.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 4:26pm
I'd like to point out here that "we're not there yet" is sort of what barefooted and I were talking about upthread in saying the GOP congresscritters are buying time until the November elections. Those that have decided not to run again because they are fed up with everything are the ones who speak out against him, of course. But I try to pay attention to the current Republican incumbent situation.. Somewhere is the last couple days I read something that really hit the spot on why incumbents up for re-election have not--that the ones in districts that voted for Trump are terrified and don't know what to do because he is more popular in their districts than they are.
But I also pay attention to all the things they do do to stymie him in actual votes, like the recent votes in support of NATO, and sanctions on Russia, etc. etc. And the free-traders, what they are trying to do to offset the tariffs. Etc.I make no mistake, they don't want for this country what most of us on the left want, they wanted to smash Obamacare, get real tough on immigrants, get tough on abortion etc. And they dearly want another conservative on the Supreme Court, which would also make their backers happy.
But I think it's a mistake to presume that a lot of them wouldn't be happy to get rid of Trump and have President Pence instead. Rather, I suspect many would love to have President Pence instead! They just can't do it now while running for re-election. Because he's so damn popular with that 1/3 of the country fan base.
UNLESS, that is, this latest pro-Russia vision of Trump finally hits some of the fans in a bad way, as in "a bridge too far". This is does not fit the "MAGA" theme, not at all. That's the main reason I am following the story on the right side so closely.
If it turns out before the election that voting for censure and/or impeachment would help certain GOP congresscritters get re-elected, I think it's a sure thing they would jump right in to get themselves a President Pence.They are all watching polls in those districts closely, every step Trump makes, I am sure. And they surely don't trust that he has their backs, only a tiny handful of them probably trusts him. Even some on the House Intel panel are probably doing supportive things for a cynical reason not to do with them believing keeping Trump in office was important, more like red meat for Trump's base....
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 6:53pm
The viability of Pence is wrapped up in the unknown parts of the ongoing investigation. It is a terrible necessary thing. It tortures those of us who are pretty darn sure that something bad happened but it also tortures those who decided their best chance in the present political environment was to support a libertine gangster from New York City.
There are many supporters of Trump who would prefer Pence because he is just like them. But there is no chance in hell Pence could win a general election.
by moat on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 7:20pm
What we need to remember is that Pence has never been an innocent bystander, much as he'd like us to believe. Going back to Flynn, while Pence was in charge of the transition, and going forward from there in fits and starts it's not at all clear that Pence is a viable alternative to Trump. We'd end up with him, of course (barring not only unforeseen but unprecedented circumstances), but would we weirdly also end up in the same place trying to eject yet another unfit pilot?
eta: There was also no chance in hell Trump would win this far out ...
by barefooted on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 8:13pm
That is why it comes down to what unfolds in the investigation.
Trump appealed to a larger audience. There has been a lot of debate about what that means. He won the election with slim margins. But that part is not very odd. The odd part is that winning that office meant little to the winner. It was smaller than him.
by moat on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 8:28pm
He won the office.
That part is not very odd.
Not even a bit ...
What's odd is that winning it
Was all that really mattered.
That's why he can't let go of the winning part; the piece that put him on top of Hillary Clinton, and by extension, Obama. That's what his ego required - the job itself is an annoyance.
As for Pence (whose very visage is enough to make me literally turn away), do you see him being possibly impeached alongside Trump? I don't see that. Though a friend has said that there is a possible Constitutional clause (?) to remove the VP prior to the president ... I don't see it. So we land after all this - best case with Trump impeached - with Pence??
by barefooted on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 9:13pm
The party of Presidents who faced impeachment proceedings, or resigned before the proceedings, have to date been replaced in the White House by the opposition party in the following election ( see Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton). Note that this even happened when there were acquittals in the Senate. Let Pence be a space holder.
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 10:00pm
If threatened with impeachment, Trump will probably resign. So that gives Pence a lot of juice unless he is clearly shown to be a part of the Trump thing.
The G.O.P. will go with whatever gives them a margin in Congress.
They are open minded in that regard.
by moat on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 10:08pm
No, he did not win. He stole votes and illegally denied voters - dropping them off voter rolls (besides using illegal foreign money and foreign support and undeclared domestic money). This will come out. It is already being verified. The fact that we don't have vote auditing has compounded this problem immensely, but it will come out - 2 years late, but hopefully relatively fully before November.
This was the theft of the millennium, and it's just started.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 07/19/2018 - 4:49am
Yes, I agree with all of that. I wouldn't be surprised if Pence hates Trump and thinks god made him president so he could be impeached and make Pence president. Pence knows he couldn't be elected on his own and probably thinks it's all god's plan.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 7:22pm
Heaven help us - that makes sense.
by barefooted on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 8:04pm
Real world wake up call: Forget definitions, discussions from 1787 etc...
But....what about Nixon..? Watergate! Didn't Republicans stand on... principles...? The principal was likely the same, advance the right wing agenda.
Chomsky called Nixon "the last liberal President." (EPA, OSHA, SS indexed to inflation after 10% across the board SS +bump, federal minority hiring quotas..etc)"
See Time magazine, 1971, pre-Watergate, The Right Wing vs Nixon.
by NCD on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 5:12pm
Chock up another point for the "idiot/moron" version of the Trump saga:
Trump somehow still doesn’t understand NATO
He doesn’t seem to grasp the importance of collective defense or even how it works.
By Alex Ward @ Vox.com, Jul 18, 2018, 2:40pm EDT
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 4:03pm
P.S. I find myself wishing sometimes Rex Tillerson, as bad as he was for the State Dept., would do a tell-all book, which of course he probably won't. Thought of that again when I caught this piece where a writer over at The Weekly Standard makes a convincing point that when Tillerson said "the president speaks for himself", he wasn't talking about Charlottesville, he was saying that the president really does speak for himself and not for America... So ironic that "MAGA" is the theme that got him there. More like "Make America Over as a Mirror for Narcissus"?
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 4:14pm
Or “MAGA” Morons Are Governing America
by rmrd0000 on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 4:39pm
Take 25, with CBS this evening:Trump says he holds Putin personally responsible for election meddling And if this one doesn't play well, not a hit, he can come up with a million more, can play it any way you want.
Comes to mind, Mueller may not exactly like the idea of interviewing him.
I didn't listen. So don't know if he remembered to say "no collusion!"
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 8:25pm
Okay, finally getting to the immediately serious stuff now. New headline @ WaPo:
As Russians describe ‘verbal agreements’ at summit, U.S. officials scramble for clarity
Officials at the most senior levels across the U.S. military, attempting since Monday to determine what President Trump may have agreed to on national security issues at his private meeting in Helsinki with Russian President Vladimir Putin, had little to no information on Wednesday. The administration has offered few specifics on meetings that the president described as a “tremendous success.”
I notice it rocketed to #1 most read story pretty quickly, no doubt because of the nature of the paid readership.
by artappraiser on Wed, 07/18/2018 - 11:21pm
Jackson Diehl, Deputy Editorial Page editor, WaPo, op ed this afternoon, "Putin is probably still smirking about Helskinki. He shouldn't be." https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/putin-should-wip...
Excerpts:
by AmericanDreamer on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 3:49pm
this is an especially good point
in his ignorance and naive zeal to strike deals with strongmen, he is making actual accords impossible
except that I think it is also important to add "to the point of frustration of his own staff". He turns our whole system upside down by making all things wide-open non-ideological whims of personality of one person. I.E., if John Bolton were running things, we would know what the ideology and mindset is and see the reasoning, and others can argue and work against the policies. But we don't really even know what this administration wants to do in the world because all the leader seems to want to do is shake things up and see what happens. And in the rare instance that a reasoning and policy is given, like with his tariffs, results are coming in counter-productive to ideology. In all of that Trump is more of a "chaos" creator than Putin?
by artappraiser on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 4:02pm
That was the sentence that jumped out at me as well. But...I cut and paste, you (plural) decide.
by AmericanDreamer on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 4:35pm
In terms of the meeting blowing back upon Putin, the ignorance component may be the deadliest.
It is all going your way. You have the ear of the U.S. President without anybody from his administration present to interfere with the conversation. But it soon becomes apparent that all the agreements being made involve circumstances and relationships the President does not actually understand and the details of which will not be remembered by any but Putin.
The most brilliant intelligence coup of our generation foiled by the paradox of solipsism.
by moat on Fri, 07/20/2018 - 8:07pm