MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
By Matthew Continetti @ Washington Free Beacon, Aug. 18
[....] When political scientist Lee Drutman analyzed voter data from last year's election, he found that the Republican Party is divided by ideology: "By making questions of national identity more salient, Donald Trump succeeded in winning over ‘populists' (socially conservative, economically liberal voters) who had previously voted for Democrats."
Trump's emphasis on social issues broadly construed—on abortion, guns, judges, crime, drugs, immigration, terrorism—and his rejection of orthodox GOP support for free trade and entitlement reform transformed the Republican makeup. What Drutman describes as a "split in the Republican Party between populists and conservatives" can also be interpreted as a division between the party of Trump and the Grand Old Party. The two parties may agree on some issues, but they differ in tone and outlook and on crucial policy questions. It is difficult for them to function as a coalition government. Trump's health care reform is stalled in Congress, his tax reform is inchoate, and his infrastructure plan is nonexistent. The two parties are able to unite against the left, but have trouble finding common legislative ground.
Making things more complicated is the fact that there are more than these two parties. Drutman also found divisions within the Democrats. "To the extent that the Democratic Party is divided, these divisions are more about faith in the political system and general disaffection than they are about issue positions." The Democratic Party of Barack Obama and Bill and Hillary Clinton is satisfied with the status quo, and uses identity politics as a veneer for economic policies that benefit Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, and multinational corporations. What we might call the party of Bernie Sanders, on the other hand, is both more radical on questions of political correctness and identity and hostile to the established order. The party of Sanders wants radical change. Beginning with Medicare for all.
Recent events have brought to light the distinction between the party of Trump and the GOP. But it would be foolish for Democrats to believe that they are out of the woods, that America has settled, for the moment, on a three-party system. What we have are four parties: The mainstream Republicans, the party of Trump, the mainstream Democrats, and the party of Sanders. White House chief strategist Steve Bannon's bizarre call to the editor of the liberal American Prospect magazine can be seen as a clumsy attempt to forge a new majority by rejecting the mainstream Republicans and aligning with the party of Sanders on trade, entitlements, and infrastructure spending. But the effort is doomed to fail. In twenty-first century America culture and identity take precedence over economics, and it is in regards to culture and identity that the true break between left and right is found. [....]
Comments
Found this recommended by David Frum, he retweeted political scientist Lee Drutman's tweet of a link to the author's article.
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/20/2017 - 6:54pm
I'm sure they lump me in with the "satisfied with the status quo" bunch, and it pisses me off over and over. I'm far from satisfied, but I never thought Bernie was the one to effectively voice, much less fix that dissatisfaction. I get the feeling of pollsters intentionally framing this question in a leading, false way that heightens the Democratic split even as we continually try to lessen it. Obama wasn't my candidate - Hillary was. I got 8 years of grinding non-confrontation in the face of unruly Huns, but supposedly Obama was my good-enough candidate so we get to change from what I never wanted under the theory that we tried it my/Hillary's way already and it failed, when much of this was a watered down porridge of what she'd expressed, *not* her program nor style.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 08/20/2017 - 11:45pm
If so, you may also be thrown in with the liberal limo Hamptons set, see below.
But you should hold your horses, my gut tells me all this analysis will be blown upside down when Hillary's book comes out Sept. 12, for a while at least.
FWIW cheat sheet notes on related class issues: Chappaqua is more Hampton-ish than Bedminster, but Chappaqua is more like Bedminster than it is like the Hamptons. MEANWHILE, where Bannon spent more than a few hours this Weds. nite (3 hrs. according to Breitbart's version, 5 hrs. according to Axios) was at Robert Mercer's huge north shore Long Island estate in Head of Harbor certainly equally exclusive and expensive as the Hamptons, but less chi-chi as the Hamptons which are 35 miles away on the south shore. Where it also just so happens there were protests in late March telling Mr. Mercer start paying more of his fair share of taxes
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 1:04am
You fail to appreciate my Old Worldishness, just returned from where Chopin and George Sands would summer. The closest I got to Hamptons was where my father was placed, wrong end of the compass, more Hamstrung than Hamptons to be honest. Chappaqua has those Indian pretensions, whether lives up to them I don't know. Bedminster? Bedsheets and Broomsticks.
I would love for H to write something unexpected. Can we hope? A little - so many have been dashed already, but she does have an uncredited mischievous sense. A little Last Hurrah/Prometheus Unvound is warranted. Let's see.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 8:43am
I am thinking many more will now feel they'd like to have a beer with Hillary but alas it's too late, she may have given up shape shifting for public consumption:
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 1:35pm
Where's the Satanic rune around her neck? and eyes should be hot-red glowing; really needs better Photoshop. But kudos for the Guinness - it's all dark in there.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 2:53pm
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 4:59pm
She drinks Guinness?? Well now of course I would have a beer with her.
by Obey on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 6:54am
Looks to me like Bannon's still trying to reach across to the Bernie wing. Atop Breitbart just now:
Wouldn't be surprised if there is favorable coverage from Breitbart of the Good Jobs Nation rust belt tour that goes through Labor Day and includes Bernie though it might be that Breitbart version is to blame Congress and Cohn and Mnuchin as opposed to blaming Trump?
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 12:31am
McConnell undercuts Trump's claim: 'Most news is not fake' and promises no govt. default:
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 6:13pm
and this is how Breitbart is currently covering the above, headlining it
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 6:12pm
Breitbart is also playing up how Goldman Sachs CEO is regularly "trolling" Trump on twitter including a quip today related to the eclipse
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 6:19pm
Hillary, Thy sweet name no more shall dwell,
On Briebart's every page, to do it wrong,
Not haply of more investigations can we tell,
Wherefore now Blankfein tweets spiteful songs,
For Trump, ne’er love him, over whom all dost hate.
by NCD on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 7:05pm
Fwiw, this 4-way schism is bigger than Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, bigger than the Hamptons and Appalachia, bigger than our whole screwed up, self-obsessed country. A number European countries literally have four (or more) parties, and the left-wing and right-wing coalitions threaten to eclipse the centrists. It's not some temporary aberration that will subside in a couple years. These divisions have been growing across the Western world for decades and show no signs of abating.
by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 11:05pm
I so agree. This is why I am rather dismissive about the whole "Dems gotta have a message" thing. To cling to the two big tent parties strikes me as a ridiculous waste of time, fighting over a dying paradigm. No, it's centrists that have to have a message, leftists have to have a message, conservatives have to have a message, etc.
There are already these tribes on the political internet. We participate in one of them. To try to grow a bigger tent from them is hard enough, making it into a humongous tent strikes me as ridiculous.
Not only that, voters will not be faithful to party anymore because crossover voting for the individual personality and "resume" is also going to continue to grow.
Add that our world in general is changing radically and quickly in leaps and bounds, old problematic issues that caused huge arguments are going to disappear like the wink of an eye, all sturm and drang over nothing, and all kinds of new problems not addressed. (Not the far future, now and the very near future. I.E., robot workers are here now, all kinds of jobs and professions being made obsolete, all kinds of practices being made obsolete. In ten years, Walmart's zeppelin warehouse in the sky could crash and "oh the humanity" Cleveland could be gone, like that.) And people still waste a lot of time talking about things like what party white males will vote for and how Afro-Americans will withhold their vote if they don't get attention and where will the white suprematicists go when it's clear they've been decimated in a fortnight. Meanwhile the next census will have tons of colors of people that can't pick any of the categories but "other". Gerrymander that by race! No way can you, it's going to be class.
I think people should be woke to this: radical change like we have not seen in our lifetimes. Only thing I am sure of: economic class is going to be important, not race or ethnicity. Time for the smart to stop wasting so much time on old culture wars just because a troll riles them up.
P.S. As far as our country, the millenial generation cannot be joked about anymore, they just surpassed the boomers in numbers, and the educated ones don't think about history or culture like we do. It's seriously a new world, it's here. The old grievances are kaput.
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/21/2017 - 11:49pm
I vehemently disagree. There was no substantive difference between the competing wings of the Democrats - it was largely a fight over speed of change and pragmatics and personalities. The right wing has a problem - we don't, except for learning how to sift propaganda and figuring out how not to commit sappukko at every turn, how not to let the media throw more false food into our tent. All this "DNC tilted the scales against Bernie" stuff? Russian/GOP propaganda combined with typical paranoia/hysteria on the left - mountain out of molehill and we got soaked. Shawn Rich was assassinated? More spook stuff to stoke the discontent. A 30-year senator/congressman doesn't represent the establishment? ROFLMAO or however that acronym goes. The 2 biggest complaints of the election were that damn email server and whether Clinton Foundation was doing influence, while tthe real issue was the slow plodding pace of recovery and crappy position in state elections that we keep getting bombed in. The right has gerrymandered and bankrolled its position to permanent control while we keep arguing about messages. Try this - "they're stealing, we're getting suckered" - if we can't change that message, we're permanently screwed.
PS - I don't think the "millennial" bit is that significant either - again, more marketing.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 2:33am
To state the obvious, Hillary did what every candidate is supposed to *try* to do - got 95% of the endorsements of existing representatives and leaders of core interest groups. The *only* angle to work against this was to denounce the whole system as rigged and corrupt - a strategy that suited the more discontent and more minority left, the GOP, the Russians and the very hungry largely GOP-controlled media. (include Sinclair, Comcast, Fox, Breitbart, and then look at CNN that hired Lewandowski, and similar examples among other media outlets. MSNBC hired Greta with Rachel piling on plaudits? Feel the resolve and principle and dedication to unbiased news).
Millennials got their 1968 Chicago protests 2.0 - as typical, a bit less impressive than 1.0 and wholly commercialized and media-packaged. But millennials are running on different time scales - the iPhone is what, 12 years old? Facebook 15? 3 years = generation in tech. Trial software comes and goes. 1 year to oblivion is the norm for most tweets and fads, while anything more is a sign of staying power and effectiveness. Trump won't make it to year 1 (is already discarded like an unused app).
The one curious thing is how to map our 2- 4- 6-year political system to this faster design-test-release industrial cycle, along with the greater social interaction and feedback loops that bypass the sausage of politics.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 3:24am
PP, your comments miss the point. Even if Hillary had won, the macro-trends that propelled Trump and Sanders and Le Pen and Corbyn and Brexit and Siriza and Golden Dawn and Podemos and the Freedom Party (the list goes on but I'll stop) would still be macro-trending, though they might be less obvious to us if the president of the U.S. weren't a right-wing demagogue.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 7:24am
To put it another way, even if Hillary had become president in 2016, the fact that a man like Trump could win the Republican nomination--blowing the other folks away--and come so close to the White House would be historically earth-shattering. That he actually became President just makes the earthquake more spectacular.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 7:50am
The fact that a man like Trump could become President using illegal collusion and a whole lot of illegally tunneled money and corporate-sponsored media propagnada and bought Supreme Court decisions on campaign finanance makes me want to fight harder for the more honest principles I felt I was supporting.
If you think Hillary ran a bad campaign, Corbyn's for Brexit was downright shitty. If it had been a referendum for his future, he'd be out on his ass. He then ran a slightly better campaign in May when Theresa May bollocksed it up by calling a snap election, and fortunately for Corbyn, the anti-arrogance sentiment gave him a decent victory (or good enough loss actually - something Hillary is regularly shellacked for) where his campaigning was still a bit middling to piss poor. (he almost skipped the debates, and only showed up to badger May for not showing up. Fortunately for him, the passion for protest had worn off, so the Lib Dems also lost, as did Scotland's SNP, much like both the far left and Le Pen in France).
I don't doubt there's a lot of unrest about jobs of the future, immigration, etc., and I lay much of the dissatisfaction at the feet of no drama Obama, and still don't see why Hillary having to dig through a mile of tired-of-establishment shit is quite her fault (fur fuck's sake, Debbie Wasserman Schultz was *OBama's* shitty appointment) when 9 years ago everyone felt the responsible thing to do was first to fuck off & not block the hopes and dreams of the new multiethnic (non-white) generation, and then in defeat to support the charismatic new nominee. And then last year, the only decent thing for her to do was to fuck off and let the supposedly more charismatic septagenarian have his say to not block the hopes and dreams of the new (not-Hillary, stop the identity politics support-the-female thing) millennial up-and-coming minority.
Yes, as Michael Moore said, it was a huge FU. People don't do that every day, though if it's perceived that no one listened, they just might revolt. But when the revolt was fomented by outright lies that are being exposed more and more, where the party of the supposed savior who had all the easy "yup, I'm a businessman, I'll just snap my fingers and fix it" solutions that turned out to be absolute shit and huckesterism and 180 degrees backwards from his true intents, maybe part of that earthquake was from people falling for a huge pyramid scheme, and like the fallout in Greece and a generation ago in Albania, they face consequences rather than cash in their expected chips.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 9:31am
PP, you're not listening to me. You keep bringing up Hillary, but I'm not talking about her. Trump dominated the Republican primary--and with far less corporate money than some of his opponents. No one like him has ever won the nomination of a major party in American history. Even if you ignore the general election, that is remarkable.
But more to the point, the reason I listed 10+ examples of populist developments is because if you're talking about global trends, the individual specifics fall out. Every case is idiosyncratic, and you can argue to death about why Corbyn or Trump or whomever managed to win some election. But taken as a whole, you can't ignore that there is lot of very funky politics going on across the western world. This is not business as usual. History is reaching an inflection point.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 12:50pm
Yes, that's the point. It's not just that liberal politics are losing, it's losing to things well outside the norm of conservative politics. Trump is the clearest example of that. We hope it's the death throes of a dying beast but I worry " what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?"
by ocean-kat on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 1:45pm
Corbyn didn't win. He lost, but less bad than predicted. And mostly not because of him, but because May was a real incompetent arrogant priss. How'd those independents and extremists do in France? oh, not very well. How about Holland? the establishment center held. Merkel looked like German challenges might shove her out of office just 6 months ago - now she's got the opposition on the run. All of these "trends" people like pointing at can just as well be one-offs, especially when encouraged by a lot of under-the-table money and media cheerleading. Everybody wants pie. Give them a candidate who promises pie and one who doesn't, they're likely to vote for the one that offers pie. Eventually someone notices there wasn't any pie. What was it the Tories promised, 300m quid a month from NHS savings? oops, seems Boris pulled those numbers out of his arse. Well, he's not the most popular politician right now, but at least he's not out on his bum like half the Brexit generals. Live by revolution, die by revolution - record keeps on turning.
By the way, Nate Silver cited a study of TV political pundits. Turns out most did worse than a 50-50 coin toss - they had more to gain and little to lose by consistently promoting exciting but doubtful outcomes. A lot of shite political wisdom out there, and the more we lap it up, the dumber we get (reminds me of driving & Repo Man). We know this of Fox, but do we realize it with the other news outlets as well?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:17pm
Notice one thing: You didn't mention a single political party in this comment except for the Tories, only individuals and how they appealed on the political spectrum. And as for the Tories. Can't you see that Pro-Brexit and anti-Breixit were much bigger and more passionate parties than the existing ones?
If we had had Breixit in the post-Citizens-United U.S., all of the political money would have flooded there one side or another rather than to either party.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:30pm
anti-Brexit wasn't passionate - that's why Labor floundered. Holland I don't know the names of the parties, nor Germany exactly (CDU, Social Democrats I think is Merkel, etc. etc.)
As for parties, I saw parties here that were based around people dissolve and then re-form around the same old lines, different faces controlled by the same cash. *THE 2 MAJOR PARTIES LOST THEIR PLACE, REPLACED BY 2 'NEW' ONES" - oh, but somehow the 2 new ones act like the old ones. Quaint.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:38pm
Every trend is a series of one-offs. Some people see a line, others just a collection of dots. But recognizing patterns is necessary to understand history. Each of the revolutions of 1848 was a one-off, but together, they formed a pattern: monarchism is dying. The progressives parties that emerged around the world in the early 1900s formed another pattern: labor is rising. The waves of fascism and communism were also historical trends, though shorter lived.
So you can sit here and try to pick apart example after example, insisting that there is no pattern to be found, just a bunch of one-offs. You can say that we've reached the end of history. But in another 10 to 20 years, we'll look back on this moment with the benefit of hindsight, and the pattern will be unmistakable.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 8:19am
What do you mean? I'm following the real trends, like the end of Hooters. If you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. Even Dark Data can stand up now and be counted. But with the rise of microtrends, we can't fall into patterns of yore without suffering whiplash. Hey, today Nate's talking about Trump support falling off in the Midwest - oops, do we go back & rejigger that post-election strategy? And then there are those fake polls - except fake polls can have knock-on effects by attracting more moths to the fake light, until hey, what's all the excitement?
I remember the McGovern campaign and I remember the Sanders campaign. Sure, there was some real stuff, but also there was a lot of "where the action is", what's cool, what's not. Very few in my class could articulate why McGovern was the real deal, but we flocked to that side of the gym. Not everyone was as clueless as me, but certainly a lot, likely the majority.
But then again, how do you want us to react to fake memes? "Obamacare's failing" - a total bullshit proposition, even if there were some issues that needed to be dealt with (no, I'm not a huge fan, but whatever). But Bernie popped out with "singlepayer now", while Trump hammered on repeal repeal repeal. Both reactions to a fake non-event or heavily twisted pseudo-analysis. So are people really upset about their Obamacare, or they upset because they're told they should be upset about their Obamacare? Are we trying to fix a people-facing policy problem, or a fake news messaging problem, or somehow both? Should we bother telling/reminding people why singlepayer won't work very well in the US, or are we just amplifying an intentional misperception?
I get that there's lots to be pissed about, but as usual, I'm well aware that people often aren't pissed about the same things I'm pissed about, and are often raving about things that I think are irrelevant. If those ravings are stirred up by professional shit disturbers who've been stoking those same fires for 20 years, do we start drinking their particular brand of koolaid to fit the zeitgeist and be more popular, or find a better way to stop the Pied Piper from leadng everyone off to the Mountain?
Joking aside, I get that millennials see things differently for very good reasons, and I've been hit by some of the same economic forces that make their lives difficult. I'm rather adaptable to change and discomfort zones et al, but I also still have a functional bullshit detector. And in these LinkedIn/Facebook times, everyone's a small business/sole properietor/free agent hawking some bullshit or other. Just cause someone's selling it doesn't make it true. Nor false.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 9:02am
It's really not that hard to tell the difference between a historical trend and a fake meme. Since WWII, most liberal democracies have been governed by two centrist parties. Third parties existed, but they played a relatively small role. In the last few years, however, the old centrist parties have been rocked by chaos. Some have been supplanted or seriously threatened by third parties of various stripes (Greece, Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Austria). Others are suffering internal attacks from fringe factions and populists (US, UK). Meanwhile, there has been a surge of separatism (Catalonia, Scotland, Quebec, Flemish) and less stable democracies are taking an autocratic turn (Poland, Hungary, Turkey).
Now I don't know why voters are "angry" of even if they're angry. Maybe they're all just brainwashed, as you say (though that's way too facile an explanation). But you don't need to know the cause to recognize the trend. Whatever is driving it, there is a clear pattern of political instability across the Western world not seen since the 1930s.
PS My condolences for Hooters
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 11:55am
What trend? Hey, Scotland and Catalonia and Quebec want more independence - this is ancient by US standards, completely irrelevant to say Le Pen. Turkey? it's a conservative Muslim revival stage managed by Erdogan - how this has anything to do with Hungary or Poland, I don't know. Closer would be Meciar 25 years ago managing the Czechoslovak breakup. Populist bastard. So is *he* part of this trend? And Hungary's getting Russian backing. But are Romania and Bulgaria similarly encumbered? Montenegro turned down its Russian connection. Serbia seems iffy. Greece's irresponsibility and corrruption is an outlier for every attempt to make it a bellweather.
For every"trend" you note, I can note 2 countertrends. And to be honest, I focus much more on the US - I'm sure it's less trendable for those who follow. Again, we were worried about Holland and Germnay, butit's been a great 8 months of reversal.
Yes, there are some growing pains for the EU, but there were growing pains on 1998 withthe intro of the Euro and in 2003 with rapid expansion, and last year withconcerns of disintwgration that fortunately never emerged. Just Brexit, and that's been a quite muddied diluted response ever since. There's a point to make in all that shit, but we're still not sure what it is, and it seems less and less about Brussels all the time.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 12:49pm
No, you haven't offered serious counter trends. You just keep quibbling with the examples. This is clearly as far as we're going to get. I see a forest. You see trees.
by Michael Wolraich on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 2:33pm
Sigh. Holland was a case where your new trends would prevail. But they didn't. France? Nope, Macron tamped down both the far right and far left (though having teoubles now). Germany? Merkel's no longer in danger. Counter trends? I never promised you those. I just said there's no trend yet worth noting - aside from Russian influnced elections. And normal East European populism. And bored media trying to play fantasy football with everything to stir shit up.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 3:17pm
Michael, I see you arguing here on my point that you disagreed with above.
A man who basically ran as an Independent, against the GOP establishment is our President. Precisely because he targeted demographics that are way unhappy with the two parties.
He even paid for a lot of it outside the established route. If anyone wants to bring in Russia at this point, that's fine, I got a rhetorical for that: don't you think Russian intel has a good bead on where western politics is going? They get it, they get the whole thing, the independents, the internest in charismatic leaders over party. They had party loyalty shoved in their faces for 80 years, they get that too.
I still strongly believe both parties are dying and we are going to a more parliamentary system. Perot was the first gasp a lot of people were incredibly energized by that. Bill Clinton himself was actually a member of "not the old Dem party, this is the DLC"
If someone like Bloomberg ran, do you think he'd be so stupid as to run inside one of the parties? (I imagine him swearing a blue streak every time he sess Trump on TV.) If someone like Schwarzenegger could run? Why do you think Schwarzenegger is interested in undoing gerrymandering? To help the Dem party? I doubt that very much. He'd like to see more Independent voting. Speaking of CA politicians, look the the current governor of the 5th largest economy in the world. You think he thinks the big tent Dem or GOP party is a useful tool?
Or for another exmaples Do you really think Koch Bros. are about sticking faithfully to the GOP?
I am looking at it historically, over my lifetime. I now see: Reagan Democrats as the first death knell of the two-party system and the beginning of charismatic leaders building Independent coaltions.
With the tribalism of the internet, it becomes ever clearer that the idea of two big tent parties is obsolete. No one is going to be faithful to them, no one can get all passionate about either of them precisely because they cannot get such a disparate large number of people to respond to any slogans or issues or programs or "message". There is no one message that can appeal to such a large group anymore. There will be individuals or smaller parties that people trust to be interested in some of the same things they are, and have similar world view to theirs, that is all there is going to be. No great big parties anymore. More parliamentary, that is the way we are going.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 3:29pm
Much of America is more atheistic, less defined by region, family, religion, employer, union, school, or even specific trade. Our communities are more and more virtual, i.e. ad hoc. It's not too surprising that political allegiance would seek a more Chinese menu or spattering of whatevers approach as well. Though the GOP continues to focus on the still significant constituency that defies these trends.
I don't know how we convert to a parliamentary system - it's largely a winner-take-all spoils system - how to migrate when there are no mechanisms to convert it? (and the forces that be better support the crooked gerrymandering/bench stuffing/rules abusing/money stuffing approaches that self-affirm that spoils system)
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 4:20pm
While I agree there is discontent with the current parties and an increase in tribalism I think you exaggerate the likelihood of third parties and their appeal. To some extent Perot and to a larger extent Nader struck fear in the hearts of republican and democratic voters. Each group realized the danger of a third party dividing their vote and allowing an even worse candidate to win. Conservatives still blame Perot for Bush's loss and liberals blame Nader for Gore's. Nader is virtually a pariah even among the left.
Even with such an outlandish figure as Trump Republicans who hated him tried to get a third party going and failed completely. In the end the vast majority of republicans voted for Trump and in spite of Sanders most democrats rallied behind Hillary. I'm sure the Koch brothers hated Trump but they made no attempt to support the never Trumpers attempt to run a third party candidate. They are aware that dividing the republican/conservative vote will simply allow the democrat/liberals to win.
If there was ranked or instant run off voting I think we'd see many third parties forming and some winning. But until then I think most people will choose to be a faction/tribe within a larger tribe, democrat or republican. Even if that larger tribe doesn't quite fit.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 4:23pm
I think this:
. To some extent Perot and to a larger extent Nader struck fear in the hearts of republican and democratic voters. Each group realized the danger of a third party dividing their vote and allowing an even worse candidate to win. Conservatives still blame Perot for Bush's loss and liberals blame Nader for Gore's. Nader is virtually a pariah even among the left.
Is old people's memories. Long time ago! Many boomers who remember these things are going to die soon, most of the others will also be retired and maybe after this Trump presidency just throw up their hands and not care anymore about politics. (It's been a very hard personal realization to me that--there is no future and younger people do not care about the past-- the last couple years as many colleagues and more than a few loved ones have died and others retire, I could just make up my resume and few could challenge it! And maybe I should, because most of my knowledge and experience is growning obsolete.)
We who remember these things are increasingly irrelevant. Did you listen to your parents' tales of the past when you voted? Are history lessons very popular now? How many young people are passionate about the Dem or GOP Party? I know ones passionate about Sanders, and passionate about Bretbart or Black Lives Matter, etc. I saw a ton of them become passionate about getting Barack Obama elected the first time but they didn't give a damn about a party, to this day they don't.
Let's look at one wealthy powerful educated couple: Jared & Ivanka Kushner? Flipped from registered Democrats to GOP when daddy ran on the ticket, just for daddy. Funny, Jared's running a lot of our foreign policy now. Ivanka's probably hedging bets that China will be her career after this is all over, Americans won't like her. The parties are irrelevant to them.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 4:58pm
P.S. One of my favorite canaries in a coal mine on this all: Purportedly bluest of blue NYC elected a Republican & Republican-leaning mayor for 16 years. To check the Democratic party's control of the city. Nobody thinks that's worth noticiing or discussing. That NYC doesn't really like either party, not faithful at all to the Democratic party, just to liberal national candidates to oppose conservative ones. There's not been loyalty or fondness for either party in NYC for two decades at least. Much of Calilfornia the same! For maybe even longer.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:07pm
Nader/Gore might be increasingly irrelevant as the years go by but it's not yet irrelevant. It was only 16 years ago. The people who didn't live through it haven't even voted yet. They say everyone remembers where they were when Kennedy was killed. I was born in 57 and I knew and was affected by the Kennedy assassination even though I was too young to remember where I was when it happened. Memory extends backward a bit more than we're aware of. We're affected by the discussions of events in the near past that we didn't or barely lived through.
The democratic primary was a relatively brutal affair and Sanders refusal to accept his loss spread discontent to his supporters. But still according to the statisticians the vast majority of Sanders supporters voted for Hillary not Jill Stein.
Kids supporting their parents despite who they are is common. I don't accept that as a convincing argument for your theory. Jared and Ivanka may have followed their father to the republican side but those who liked Ivanka and bought her clothes, books and other products didn't go with them. They dumped her and her products immediately and didn't even give her a break due to familia loyalty.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:57pm
"Kids supporting their parents despite who they are is common." - reminds me of Scotland PA (Macbeth modernized). "You had an antagonistic relationship with your father" "No, those are your words. I had a sucky relationship with my father. But not enough to put his face in a deep fryer.".
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 6:03pm
What's the difference between Hillary & Gore? pretty similar in policies, approaches, reputation attacks (including stiffness, not being authentic, etc.), and those non-scandal scandals. Why do people care about Nader and not about Jill Stein/Gary Johnson when the resulting president was even worse?
Again, the money in politics isn't to persuade anyone - it's to discourage people. In 2000, it was "both sides are the same", so Gore supporters stayed home - either candidate was good enough, forget the successes of the 90's. As Roger Stone said, it's to get your 51%. As OceanKat said, you can't get enough small donations to get out the vote for a whole string of candidates across the ballot. But it's not that hard to disgust people with the whole thing or other times scare the bejeezus out of them with some trumped up scandal or scare or whatever. The GOP goes for the visceral touch - the belly, the spleen. The Democrats go for the mind or that good samaritan spirit that's just in too short of supply to make a strong movement. Did pretty well, but hate & venom play better to the TV & internet audience.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:05pm
The GOP goes for the visceral touch - the belly, the spleen. The Democrats go for the mind or that good samaritan spirit that's just in too short of supply to make a strong movement.
And increasingly a majority votes neither of the above and votes for the individual they like best.
You are describing what I described elsewhere, that which people don't like about the big parties, their artificial manchiean spin vs. spin war. Those that are interested get into more detailed spin. They watch Fox News if they have some conservative beliefs because they don't want to waste time listening to the Dem. vs. GOP big picture game spin, they want to hear different factions of the GOP fight it out. Likewise MSNBC for the flip side.
These types lead the others now through social media. The ones we think as the dummies that don't know who can't answer the question "who is the Vice President?" They read the stuff their relatives and friends who are the leader types post on Facebook. They certainly don't care what the Republican party or the Democratic party thinks. In the past there was party line voting by these types because their parents and their grandparents were one or the other. Now they read what those they like and trust informed by the internet post and vote accordingly. Again, both parties increasingly irrelevant.
Bannon does not say he is fighting for the heart and soul of the Republican party. He could care less, playing by those rules too old fashioned.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:20pm
Yes, it's a new breed of "outsiders" who act in lockstep like former insiders. I don't see the revolution quite yet. And I've been reading enough Kahneman and Silver to believe that these decisions won't be based on logic so much, and that passed on social recommendations will be gamed by various marketing/fake news/spambots run through microtargeting scams. How does that square with "Independents"? sounds almost like extensions to the corporate zeitgeist, just unwittingly so.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:49pm
Gore lost Fl by 500 votes and Nader got nearly 100,000. That made it easier and more reasonable to blame him. The close vote in the state and the recount debacle kept it in the news so everyone knew about it.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 6:20pm
True, but Nader at least had a valid purpose. Voter disenfranchisement, not so much. And yet 16 years later it's become an artform rather than taboo, part of one party's platform and not too forcefully reprimanded by the Supreme Court (they can say it's naughty, but they won't institute any actual punishments for past behavior, just a stern "don't do this again" while leaving fraudulent results in place)
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 6:27pm
AA, unlike European parliamentary systems, the US political system generally confines third parties to irrelevance. That means these battles have to take place within the major parties. The right-wing has been successfully battling for control of the GOP for decades, and they've largely succeeded. The left-wing's fight for control of the Democratic Party is much more recent and so far, less aggressive. The calls for better messaging tend to come from the left and usually focus on developing class-based economic appeals. In other words, messaging is part of the internal fight.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 7:38am
A propos Democratic party messaging and fundraising strategy that could be improved, I thought this piece by a Sanders advisor interesting.
by Obey on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 9:06am
Me too! I put it in the news links a couple weeks ago, but no one commented.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 9:19am
Here it is - a shitty DWS appointment by Obama combined with a year of demonizing by the left & the supposed rising star reformer (who abandoned the party as soon as he'd had his 15 minutes of fame and a shake up at the Democratic convention) makes for really shitty party establishment fundraising. Yes, we should have had Howard Dean once again pushing the 50-state policy to rebuild enthusiasm at the grass roots. Oh yes, supposedly the Democratic nominee had a DNC fundraiser killed in order to hush up a leak to Wikileaks. Where, oh where do you think the DNC would be raking in the bucks this year? Oh yes, then the fight over Keith Ellison - think he would have any better luck pulling this battered carcass off the floor? I wouldn't count on that many $27/person donations - that only works once - most people who think that's a good idea aren't giving to 10 different groups. It's a big dollar business, as Ocean Kat's noted over and over.
THe DCCC? well, the average person can't distinguish the DCCC from the DNC, so of course the DCCC will suffer from the same shitty PR as the DNC.
[I'm still not sure what happened to Hillary's efforts to do that 50-state-campaigning, but I'd guess - still a guess - that after a tougher-and-much-longer-lasting-than-predicted primary she found the heavy slog against Russian-GOP-Koch Brothers-Mercer-paid propaganda to take up more of her resources and concentration than she could justify diverting, and even then she was pounded for not going to states she thought she'd win easily, and instead focusing on important swing states in the must-have category, some of which she still lost.]
Oh, BTW, do we know yet whether the GOP and/or Russians used those hacked voter rolls to contribute untracked $27 donations to Sanders early on? Pretty amazing early fundraising there - most people have to work for that kind of popularity, but Sanders' seemed to come right out of the blue for an unknown guy who announced way late. (we already know that the GOP was running Sanders-friendly ads based on Rove's group, et al, along with Facebook message targeting).
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 9:43am
I think Sanders already had pretty good face and name recognition long ago precisely because he became an Independent long ago.
I think people are looking for Independents to vote for and have been for quite some time. Remember that a majority of the registered voters don't like either party, also for quite some time. They don't like the whole set up, they don't like the party loyalty in Congress, they want their Congressperson to vote their conscience, not be whipped into voting for this or that because they will get pork elsewhere.
I dare say Hillary would have done even better had she somehow being able to run as an Independent and not be tethered by right wing to the Pelosi type identity. Because then her centrism on many levels would have been clearer to voters who saw her as a limo liberal. At the same time, far left could also have found more things to like. She was tethered to one of two big tent parties that the electorate doesn't much like. She even complained about being stuck with the Dem party in that one recent interview, I wouldn't be surprised if this is a big part of the content of her book.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 3:05pm
Sanders polled as poor name recognition early on. Of course he could beat Iowa to death over a year, and New Hampshire next door would recognize him, but the rest of the country was a tough sell (and like with Obama, that relative new-to-the-scene was a plus in a country where media uses familiarity as a riding crop).
Check out early electability before the media full court press started - she was in fine shape.
Hillary would have done better if able to run as the non-favorite. Being #1 meant both in 2008 & 2016 the media would try to second guess and create a horse race out of it. How many times did we hear Joe Biden blah blah blah, Michael Bloomberg blah blah blah, some other savior of a candidate was going to come in and spice things up (some ridiculous character I can't remember right now.... They couldn't be bothered to actually analyze any policy presentations - instead they just acted bored and looked around for an alternative to pay their bar bills. It was much like 2000 except George Bush was moderately warm and likeable in a fratboy kind of way when not a snippy asshole, while Trump was an obnoxious dirtbag, but still he knew how to suck up all the oxygen out of the room while all the other GOP candidates were seriously boring along with occasionally full bullgoose loony.
And yes, she could abandon Obama but then she'd be the ungrateful traitor and lose the black vote among other, or lash her line to his sails and ride out the iffy establishment/go-it-slow reputation. While Bernie didn't have to run on any record or much defend any past behavior. He could have a kid out of wedlock and that makes him cool. She could keep quiet about women who slept or said they slept with her husband 20 years before, and that just made her a conniving bitch who tried to destroy them - thus Trump parading around Bill's mistresses at the debates. Really amazing to consider this fuckwad pulled such a trailer trash move among so many and still got elected President. Independents? fuck people - how many independent morons deos it take to elect a trainwreck of a President? who knew we had such a surplus of congenital idiots, many of whom still maintain that somehow HIllary would have been worse, based on what, I still can't grok.
And no, we can't discount billions spent building up Fox & Breitbart over 20 years along with whatever Mercer & Koch Brothers spending known and unknown - Hillary spending a half billion over a year doesn't make up for year after year after year of irrepressible propaganda. Consider that the right basically recovered its position about 3-4 months after Bush crashed the economy, while BIll Clinton took more blame for 9/11 under W's watch than W did. Very effective propaganda. Guess they're all cowboys, independents out there following those pipers in their head, but when we talk about a parliamentarian system, we have to differentiate European ones where candidates and supporters are still largely sane, while the US political system has jumped the shark. Happy Days it ain't.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 4:47pm
The Dem party cannot be a Sanders because they cannot be seen as Independent. What someone might buy coming out of Sanders mouth, they will not believe coming out of the Dem party's "mouth", there is the taint of party loyalty and therefore agitprop.
When the war rooms of the spinners were first broadcast on TV during the 92 campaign, that was the beginning of the end. That's when everyone found out what spin was, that was the start of death of the two big parties.First came the talk radio spinners according to tribal beliefs, then the cable TV pundits. After that the bloggers, all trying to prove they can do spin better than any of those pros.
Our current political parties really are: MSNBC and Fox News and Bloomberg View, TPM and FourChan, Consortium News and Breitbart, Instapundit, etc. etc.Why would anyone bother to be loyal to Democrats or Republicans in a day an age when the can find a group of like minded activists and also find out all kinds of things about an individual politician's background and true beliefs and passions by Googling? The parties have to be much smaller to even gather a "faithful" in number, and have to work out issues individually after election, that is more parliamentary process. When that eventually starts to happens, Congress's approval rating will finally rise out of the dumps. Unitl then big party loyalty based on nothing much but party name and position on either side of the aisle will continue to decline.
Exact example: people who are anti-immigrant or pro-immigrant have no party to get passionate about right now. They will not mind the horse trading after electing someone they believe agrees with their point of view if they believe that person is on the same page as them, they will accept any horse trading away on policy is in their interest. What they will not be interested in is a Dem or Repub party which dishonestly spins on their most important issue in order to get their vote where their own passionate interest has unbeknownst to them, already been horse traded away to make a big milquetoast party, that all on the ballot have already traded all kinds of stuff away.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 4:03pm
You're arguing against your own point elsewhere,Michael. That worldwide, this sort of factionalization is happening.
You argue as if the two-party system is in the Constitution or something. It's not. You see the history of third parties failing in the 20th century. I think you are not looking far back enough, not big picture enough, especially in context of a global revolution and a nutty independent catalyst as president.
We weren't set up to have any political parties at all. The two big parties grew in an unsophisticated manner as the population boomed and we went through two world wars, not much time to get nuance or planning into it.
The population is too big and too diverse now and there is also a incredible global revolution going equal to the Industrial Revolution and with technology to advance individualism and small passionate ideological communities. I see the opposite from what you say: I think it is becoming ever clearer that a two party system can no longer be sustained in this country, that the artificial growth of them that happened over 100 years is finally over.
Easier for me to see: over the lifetime of our country and even in the Colonial period, the one thing that really unifies us and has never gone away is a belief in protecting individualism or the individualist nature of small communities first and foremost, not big and supposedly powerful coalitions.
More parliamentary is the way we are headed. It is probably going to be starting early next month, actually: Freedom Caucus & Breitbart vs. the GOP establishment on the budget and taxes.
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 4:38pm
It is written into the Constitution, just not explicitly. Because we lack proportional representation, it's practically impossible for a third party to survive for long as major political organization. In nearly 250 years, no third party has placed candidates in more than a few consecutive federal elections.
It is possible for a third party to replace a major party, but that has only happened three times in American history--the Democrats replaced the Anti-Federalists, the Whigs replaced the Federalists, and the Republicans replaced the Whigs. I don't rule that out, but it's highly unlikely.
More commonly, new factions emerge and take control of existing parties. That's what the progressives did to Andrew Jackson's Democratic Party and what conservatives did to Abraham Lincoln's Republican Party.
So while I agree with you that the major parties are divided and that the old ideological battle lines are becoming obsolete, our history suggests that we will eventually reach a new two-party equilibrium. Those parties may look quite different from the Democrats and Republicans of the 20th century, however.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:05pm
We agree on a lot! Certainly enough for me. I just get aggravated when people don't wake up to how revolutionary this time is, when they get stuck in old arguments that don't matter any more. Want to shake them and say: stop wasting your time on that, that's over.
(Should we form a party ?)
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 5:34pm
Well it's not like an asteroid has suddenly bombed us into some Mad Max dystopia. Change is a process. The ideological battles of the 20th century won't be obliterated; they'll gradually morph into whatever comes next. And that "next" will come in fits and starts. The chaos of the moment may well give way to a backlash that temporarily restores the old norms, much like what happened to the progressive movement in the 1920s. Our next president will probably be an anti-Trump--centrist and sedate (Obama third term? ;)
What keeps me up is that I can't figure out what the "next" is. Bannon-esque fascism? Sanders-ish democratic socialism? None of it seems likely. But maybe I too am stuck in the past.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 08/22/2017 - 6:26pm
That's kind of the point, isn't it? Nothing seems likely but anything is possible. The Overton window is now as wide as a barn door, people are expressing opinions that seemed wildly politically implausible last year and pushing policies no one would have thought worth considering. Trump is horribly unpopular, but I have yet to see the Democrats looking inclined to promote anyone any less unpopular. There is no reason to expect a recession before the mid-terms so given gerrymandered districting I wouldn't expect any change in the short term.
Contra what you say in your first paragraph, I think the only thing that is predictable is that there will be surprises: First of all it's still not unlikely Trump will get reelected. Gallup puts his approvals at 39% now after Charlottesville. Back at election time 2016 his favorables were 39.5%. If he doesn't upset his base any further, he will have a decent chance. Depending on how badly the Democrats screw up who they nominate next time around. Not sure his reelection would count as a surprise, but everyone seems to be assuming it won't happen.
Also, the idea that people are looking to a sedate centrist to bring everyone together sounds wildly wrong to me. There is no center, in the sense of economically conservative but socially liberal. The idea tha that anyone wants more free-trade agreements, more corporate subsidies, concentrated markets, and entitlement cuts is nuts.
The left is slowly getting organized and will challenge the Democratic party establishment making the primaries more interesting than before. The nationalist right is looking energized and the corporate establishment has lost its credibility. Candidates can come out of nowhere, with little preparation of the terrain. Trump set up his small-donor network in no time. No need to schmooze the establishment elders for four years. No one cares what they think anymore. Endorsements are worthless.
by Obey on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 12:44pm
yo, Obey, you pegged it so well here:
The Overton window is now as wide as a barn door
This is the forest I see (second hat tip to Wolraich for bringing up the forest/trees thing.)
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 2:38pm
p.s. this is great, too: No need to schmooze the establishment elders for four years. No one cares what they think anymore. Endorsements are worthless.
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 2:42pm
Perhaps we've become too accustomed to boredom, or simply no one exciting has raised their standard.
by PeraclesPlease on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 5:07pm
On the current and local to the U.S. level, and Hillary specific:
I note with interest that Hillary and her publisher have decided to give first excerpts of her book to "Morning Joe" on MSNBC. "Morning Joe" is anti-Trump centrist central, GOP as well as Dem. And surprise, surprise, the first exclusive excerpt/meme is anti-Trump.
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/23/2017 - 2:21pm
It's like we basically have at least two political parties running the executive branch right now:
from
Trump’s Insubordination Problem
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/31/2017 - 2:31am
A thread worth revisiting after a year has past.
by artappraiser on Mon, 09/10/2018 - 10:16pm