MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
IT HAS been amusing to see how warmly the establishment media welcomed Steven Pinker’s 2011 tome, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined.
Comments
It is strange to see us back in 2011, ignoring ISIS and refugees and Russian hacking, et al. Did Petraeus lead a "hearts and minds" tour attacking the equivalent of "gooks"? Must have missed it. A socialist rag downplaying socialist atrocities? Unremarkable. BTW, what's current death toll from wars?
ETA - we have another 8 years of data, and who's causing wars and disruptions? Oh, Saudis in Yemen, Syrians wiping out civilians, and those Russian quasi-Communist/oligarchs in Donbas. But Lulu can't even mention chemical weapons use - cuz if the Americans didn't do it, it doesn't count. Forget Skripal and the Salisbury deaths.
Whatcha think of that multi-country effort the US led to kick out those ISIS butchers? Without the obligatory "the US created them in some insane cinspiracy", was it good to destroy ISIS or not, even if the US led it?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/06/2018 - 12:43am
What is the point of your response? Why bother? You do not even pretend to address anything in the article. The closest you come is to make an ad hominem dismissal of the "socialist rag " which is the source. Not really surprised anymore that you are buying into the re-demonization of the word "socialist" which makes it a broad-brush slur. And, ironically, you suggest that I am not blaming several of the recent and current wars on the right entities, as if my personal views or knowing objectively the right level of fault of each participant would provide the correct answer to the totally different category question the article addresses.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 10/06/2018 - 3:00am
What is the point of your 7 year old piece? "Lulu wants to rehash old shit" is as close as I can make it.
You don't say. " you suggest that I am not blaming several of the recent and current wars..." - no, I suggest you're a coward who won't address anything reasonably recent and difficult to explain away vs. sucking up to any pro-Soviet/anti-American news source. Sorry for being too subtle for you.
You don't give "personal views" - you give views straight out of the Spartacus Youth League or similarly compromised source. And yes, the article is a piece of shit for the same glaring cherry-picking fact-denying reasons I've trashed dozens of your poorly thought out references. When will you ever step up your game?
[yes, there are good reasons to attack US foreign policy, and intelligent ways to discuss these - you for some reason avoid these in favor of the hackneyed]
So who you gonna believe, the Socialists? or my lying eyes?
by PeraclesPlease on Sat, 10/06/2018 - 3:33am
Synopsis: An academic psychologist writes a controversial but widely acclaimed book which relies heavily on historical references and statistical evaluations to support a counter-intuitive thesis. Then actual historians and statisticians dispute many key aspects of his methodology and thus his conclusion. A jerk who has used the conclusion of that book to support some argument in the past is so thin skinned and so knee-jerk reactive that he attacks criticism of the book as if it is heretical to question anything that the jerk has decreed, even when done so with good supporting evidence, and he suggests that the criticism of the book by experts in the pertinent fields of study used by the book's author to reach and support his conclusion is garbage because it is seven years old, as is the book itself. This as if anything from that distance past cannot be relevant today. The jerk then goes on to defend his position by shouting invectives but without touching on any of the criticisms leveled by actual experts who have higher academic standing in the particular fields of history and statistics than that of the book’s author. Included in the jerks self-revealing diatribe is the ironically cowardly [chickenshit] slander that the very act of posting the criticism at a discussion site reveals the poster as a coward.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sun, 10/07/2018 - 10:49am
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/07/2018 - 1:36pm
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/07/2018 - 1:40pm
The "jerk" notes absolute numbers & graphs in disputing the idea that violence continues unabated. There are no large scale wars in Latin America. There are none in Asia outside of 4 Mideast Muslim countries. There's 1 minor mostly stagnant conflict in Donbas - otherwise nothing in Europe.
Said "academic psychologist" writes stupid shit like " Following the US lead, Europe is moving from “cradle-to-grave nurturance” back to “military prowess”—exactly the opposite direction from the one Pinker believes they have taken." Except that Germany recently had to recuse itself from a ship-building tender because it no longer has the prowess to build state-of-the-art military ships. NATO countries had a moderate role in the Libya attack, and much less in Syria. Western involvement in Ukraine was near nil. Flashpoints like Catalonia and Greece did not descend into military actions. Donbas did not spin out of control; Kiev did not introduce fascist methods; Russia's occupation of Crimea did not lead to full-out war. How much non-violence can we take before we admit that our global diplomacy is trending less violent?
"Pinker provides no evidence that US soldiers don’t refer to Iraqis with derogatory terms, or that civilian atrocities are investigated more aggressively (he never mentions Fallujah or Haditha), or that this “new code of honor” is “indoctrinated,” let alone taken seriously." Well you can't prove a negative, but again, Petraeus initiated a "hearts-and-minds" tour designed to project soft power. Whether it succeeded or not, the soldiers simply did not run around insulting the locals as policy are unrestrained practice, and the whole effort was predicated on training and letting them relieve us.
"He never mentions Falluah" - let's compare Fallujah (" residents' accusations that the US forces fired indiscriminately at the crowd with no provocation. 17 people were killed " - and a 2nd event where 2 people were killed; 24 civilians were killed in Haditha) with My Lai ( Between 347 and 504 unarmed people were massacred by the U.S. Army soldiers ...Victims included men, women, children, and infants. Some of the women were gang-raped and their bodies mutilated. Twenty-six soldiers were charged with criminal offenses." So a casualty difference of 20:1 or 30:1, combined with a sheer inhumane brutality/atrocity level not present in the Iraqi event, plus My Lai was reputed to be just 1 of many such events. You might note that the greater access of media, the fact that the Mideast wars are in desert rather than covered jungles, and the improved reporting & communications & handheld video have greatly decreased the chance of hiding stuff. Blackwater's killings were fairly quickly posted on the internet, whereas My Lai's killings were hidden for a couple years (with Colin Powell leading the coverup).
But as "the jerk" noted as well, we're 7 years into horrible atrocities of ISIS - beheadings by slow sawing people's heads off, women held as rape concubines, and a variety of other unspeakable events. We've credible reports of Syria & Russian using chemical weapons and heavy munitions on civilians, as well as setting up US planes to bomb a refugee building to create an incident. We have deliberate use of over a million refugees to cause chaos in European countries. But because it's easier to look for the keys under the streetlight, we're going to sit here & re-discuss the Iraq and Syrian conflicts pre-2011, and ignore what's been happening the last 8 years.
So Lulu, whatcha think about Putin using chemical weapons on civilians? Now that the US has backed away from Syria & ISIS-held regions, whatcha think of Syria's continuing military operations? Do you disagree with the contention that still seems to hold that most of the world's current military actions are confined to a few Mideast Muslim countries? Is the US responsible for Saudi Arabia bombing Yemen civilians? (not that supplying weapons doesn't contribute, but the guys actually carrying out the attacks would carry more guilt, no?)
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/07/2018 - 2:20pm
I will try to be clear about what I am saying because what you are saying jumps all over the place in response to what I have already said. Peace is more than the absence of war. The subtitle of Pinker’s book, “The Better Angels of Our Nature”, is “Why Violence Has Declined”. Violence takes many forms. One criticism of that book which neither of us have read is that Pinker uses selective statistics as well as using them incorrectly. The graph you supplied shows a spike of 500,000 in 1994. It doesn’t show a spike for the 500,000 children under five in Iraq that died but didn’t get purple hearts for combat. Or, what must have been many thousands six and older. There have been bitter disputes about the accuracy of that 500,000 dead children figure as well as other estimates of deaths from various causes related to that one conflict which then spread to other conflicts which are ongoing. Pinker, according to reports, places great confidence in figures going back to ancient history and beyond.
Absolute numbers that your first paragraph refer to do not exist.
In paragraph two you say: “Said "academic psychologist" writes stupid shit like " Following the US lead, Europe is moving from “cradle-to-grave nurturance” back to “military prowess”—exactly the opposite direction from the one Pinker believes they have taken." Note that the psychologist I referred to is Pinker.
Your third paragraph compares a single incident in Vietnam to a single incident in Iraq to establish a solid trend line. That is a worse error in the use of evidence than what is claimed of Pinker’s book.
In your next paragraph describing ongoing atrocities you begin by saying, “But as “the jerk” noted as well, we're 7 years into horrible atrocities of ISIS - beheadings by slow sawing people's heads off, women held as rape concubines, and a variety of other unspeakable events” . After describing more incidents of death and destruction you finish with, “ But because it's easier to look for the keys under the streetlight, we're going to sit here & re-discuss the Iraq and Syrian conflicts pre-2011, and ignore what's been happening the last 8 years”. I am specifically and exactly ‘not’ ignoring the strong evidence, some of which you supply right here, that our [that is, humanity’s] nature has not been taken over by better angels either in the last eight years, or the last 60 or so, or the millennia before that.
Your final paragraph begins, as has become your norm, by asking me accusatory rhetorical questions not related at all to the subject and which therefore deserve being ignored as troll-ish. But, as to the one asking if the US is responsible for Saudi Arabia bombing Yemen civilians I will answer saying, as I have said before, yes, absolutely. Saudi Arabia could not continue that bombing without the U.S. supplying weapons, material, intelligence and targeting data, refueling of their aircraft, etc. We could cut off the bombing by cutting off the bombs or by simply telling our close ally to stop. If discussions of morality has a place in a discussion about “better angels” guiding our actions then the person sitting where the buck stops is most culpable, that culpability having now been passed from Obama to Trump, but every American who directly or implicitly supports our actions re Yemen, or just ignore those actions in the comfort of their privileged positions, share responsibility in what is described as the greatest humanitarian crisis in the world.
Here is another short essay on Pinker and his book. Steven Pinker's book is a comfort blanket for the smug.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 10/08/2018 - 9:39am
Well that's that, you've finally convinced me that he U.S. needs to be just like neutral Switzerland and not presume to tell other countries what to do and instead neutrally launder money for whoever wants to launder, none of our business if they are ripping off or killing their own citizens or whatever. All will be wonderful, no conflict will bother us. Until the ocean gets too high, that is....
by artappraiser on Mon, 10/08/2018 - 9:54am
So you point to articles that jump all over the place and then complain I jump all over the place. Brilliant strategy.
To briefly dispatch your 2nd op-ed, by the time we got into Vietnam, it was post-colonial, so a fight between 2 recognized states. Perhaps a few dreamed of a permanent presence, but not a serious argument. Nor were the Iraq wars colonialist - they were to counter Iraq's actions against neighbors and internal - Iran, Kuwait, Kurds, Saudi Arabia. Not consistent, but a 10 year flyover regime is hardly the act of an implacable colonialist.
You note the 500,000 children under 5 is disputed (aka nonsense, constantly bandied about though). The figures I introduced were a relative handful to a 20-30x bigger, along with a huge difference in cruelty in response to incidents YOUR ARTICLE BROUGHT UP. Violence is not just # of dead - it's how cruelly they die or are tortured.
Congratulations for going pedantic re: the psych bit while ignoring the important point that Europe is not moving back to a military footing by *any* measure, a contention of article #1.
Congratulations for passing the buck from Saudi Arabia to the US -it highlights what an unserious tool of your rhetoric you are. You manage to fault the US on what a barbaric Mideast country does, and let them unmentioned. Same with Putin/Syria - you've been frothing over US caused deaths there, but have 0 to say about a very difficult & needed but noble effort to remove ISIS, but again you excuse/ignore Syria and Putin for chemical weapons use and bombing of civilians - a lot fucking bigger deal than Fallujah, I might note.
But in any case, the #'s of war dead have fallen decade by decade, however you want to then shift from war deaths to civilian deaths and then civilian deaths to other problems - stay 1 step ahead of admitting something concrete, easier to wail against the man, those capitalists and wish for that communist workers utopia. Do we ever get to talk about Stalin's civilians killed, say Siberia and the Holodomor, Mao's tens of millions of civilians killed in the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolutin if this iasue is so important to you. Of course it's not - because you can't spin it into US responsibility.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/08/2018 - 11:29am
The author queries, "What conqueror has ever pronounced a goal other than self-defense and the protection of life and limb?"
Genghis Khan, Alexander the Great, dozens of rulers that created the Roman Empire. My knowledge of history is not so comprehensive but I'd bet the Egyptian empire and many other invaders could be included on the list. They all unabashedly declared their intent to conquer territory to loot, rape, take slaves, and rule those foreign lands.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/06/2018 - 1:29am
Kat, glad you read the article. I agree with the point you make. I know you are a critical reader so your only finding one mistake raises my confidence that it made, on balance with its many allegations of fact, a good argument.
by A Guy Called LULU on Sat, 10/06/2018 - 3:05am
There are several points I agree with and disagree with in the article. Pinker's idea of the "ethical marine warrior" is ridiculous. War is about killing and that brutalizes people. People dehumanize those they have to kill and that they fear might kill them. I've heard border patrol agents talk about "rag heads" crossing the border. I'm sure the soldiers in the ME do the same. That dehumanization inevitably leads to atrocities. We're just as likely to avoid investigating them now as in Viet Nam or earlier. I've seen many articles about the problems of the new system of embedding reporters with military units. The system makes it easier to control reporters access and I think it's likely that there is less reporting of atrocities than in Viet Nam.
There's a lot of bigotry and Islamophobia out there. Liberals don't want to be affiliated with bigots so they often temper legitimate criticism of the Muslim religion to avoid that. Liberals have no trouble criticizing Christianity while defending or ignoring the much more harmful influences of Islam. Your link blames it all on foreign meddling in ME affairs when I think fundamentalist Islam is at least as large a problem.
Pinker exaggerates the changes in the last 100 years while your link ignores the changes that have occurred over centuries. Just a few thoughts on the article. I've never read an article I've agreed or disagreed with 100%. But I do think this one makes many very good points.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 10/06/2018 - 6:27pm