MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Hits of the Day
Trump administration recognizes Venezuela's opposition leader as rightful president
By artappraiser on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 1:58pm |By Tracy Wilkinson @ LATimes.com, Jan. 23
The Trump administration took the unusual and provocative step Wednesday of recognizing the leader of the political opposition in Venezuela as the country's legitimate president.
The move comes as the Trump administration has sought ways to ramp up pressure on the socialist government of President Nicolas Maduro, which it accuses of widespread human rights abuse, drug trafficking and a host of other crimes. Already, Washington has blacklisted several senior Venezuelan officials and put sanctions on some of its export industries, including mining.
In a statement, President Trump said he was recognizing Juan Guaido as the interim president of Venezuela because he is the head of “the only legitimate branch of government duly elected by the Venezuelan people,” a reference to the country’s National Assembly, Venezuela's legislative body that Maduro has sidelined and replaced with his own legislature stacked with his supporters [....]
URL:
https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-fg-trump-venezuela-20190123-story.html
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Comments
Here is a description of the situation as seen from the moon along with a prediction of how it will play out in the near future.
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 2:28pm
Do you too support the Bolivarian Revolution led by Presedente Nicolas Maduro?
And his right to that $550 million of Venezuelan gold in London?
Everybody knows he would surely use it for the people? Right..?
by NCD on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 7:33pm
You go first. Start with: Do you think that the U.S. has the right to overrule the democratically voter ratified wishes of the Venezuelan people in choosing their government leaders?
by A Guy Called LULU on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 7:51pm
Message from OAS Secretary General on Elections in Venezuela
May 21, 2018
The Day after the Farce
Yesterday was an infamous day for democracy in the Americas. Faced with the strength of democracy in the regional consciousness, the dictator Maduro tried – without success – to give a democratic veneer to his totalitarian regime.
And that is impossible. Totalitarianism and democracy cannot coexist. The elections of yesterday in Venezuela were an exercise without the minimum guarantees for the people. They were held with a generalized lack of public freedoms, with outlawed candidates and parties and with electoral authorities lacking any credibility, subject to the executive power. The elections were held with more than 300 political prisoners behind bars and with the State using all the resources at its disposal for the farce.
------------------------
Who you gonna believe, Moon of Alabama, or OAS? Maduro is a despot.
by NCD on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 9:31pm
I don't know about Moon of Alabama, but I bet there's a Counterpunch article somewhere that *proves* the OAS is thoroughly infiltrated by the CIA, that is if you would just open your closed mind, NCD.
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 10:17pm
Oh, and now it appears the CIA also has leverage over Argentina, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, Paraguay and Peru, who now also seek to overrule the democratically voter ratified wishes of the Venezuelan people in choosing their government leaders. That was quick!
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 10:33pm
Well, only because you asked. I did recall reading a story about the U.S. putting pressure on the OAS when the Honduras coup was an issue and it was inconvenient to have it called it a coup by every country in the OAS. The story doesn't ’t involve the CIA though. It has to do with the State Department. And no, it wasn’t in Counterpunch. You can read about it here if you want. While you may disagree that anything from as far in the past as the last administration has anything to do with today, I believe it is a part of history that clearly demonstrates what Faulkner said: “The past isn’t dead. It’s not even past.”
It is funny to see you and NCD even willing to endorse a Trump action if that’s what it takes to get a circle jerk going.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 3:10am
An interesting book on the subject. Draw your own conclusions.
https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Good_Coup.html
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 7:19am
PP: link doesn't work (which is odd, looks like it should)
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 7:59am
Try this one & hit "View Sample" (brings up maybe 50 pages of a 250-page book)
https://books.google.com/books?id=cI46nBjfUcEC
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 10:20am
Yes, The Good Coup, to the extent I read, is interesting if interested in the particular coup in Honduras and I have drawn my own conclusion. There certainly could be a coup with good results. I do not think, from my perspective as a U.S. citizen, that the Honduran coup can be justified as a good one or that it had good results .
Off [your] topic: Has anyone seen any coverage of this on the telly tube?
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 10:29am
I did not endorse this administration's action anywhere. I don't know enough yet on whether I would or not, I'm merely watching and trying to figure out what's happening.
I will say this: that so many neighboring countries ditto'ed right away without flinching is a good sign that the policy move might have been a good one.
But for the life of me, I can't understand why you care about my opinion, as an pseudonymous person on the internet, about what should be done, if anything. Why you think that would be important for you to figure out makes me think you yourself are into passing propaganda.
Re; Circle jerk. NCD and I actually disagree about interpretations often enough. You just don't seem to see it because you never seem to have much interest in domestic policy. All that seems to interest you is convincing everyone on the internet that U.S. is a warmongering nation interested in meddling with other countries through many administrations.
I loathe simplistic interpretations like that. Where I am simpatico with NCD is in ridiculing the notion that Venezuela since Chavez was a hunky dory democratic situation and that the meddling of the U.S. hegemon was the cause of all the troubles.
It's absurd on its face to claim people have self agency and are happy with the leader when there is a huge exodus from the country. U.S. wanted that to happen? Ridiculous.
I am against passing disinformation. If I think I see it, that's where I am going to offer opinion and even ridicule.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 7:50am
But you did not make any reference to disinformation. No claim of misinformation. No argument, correction, or alternate view. No 'nuanced opinion. Scroll up and notice that your first contribution went straight to ridicule. Do you see something in the Moon article that is disinformation? Just say so and we will talk about it because believe it or not, I would like to know. Then go to your next comment. Nothing of substance, nothing about the topic, just more dismissive ridicule. Is that in the search of nuanced conversation leading to a better understanding?
What makes you think that I care any more about your opinion than you care about mine? It aint peronal, It aint all about you.
The author of the link I supplied did not say everything in Venezuela is hunky dory since Chavez, and I am quite sure I have never said anything close to that because I have never believed that. Since Chavez, I have been pointing out how the U.S. has been working to make life tougher in Venezuela and how successful they have been. The U.S. of course is not the cause of all Venezuela's problems but it has had a dedicated, well funded program intended to make them worse.
Absurd on its face maybe if that is as far as you can see but I think it It's absurd on its face to decide that that is proof of where the root problem lies and use it as an excuse for our country, which has deliberately been part of creating the problem, to decide based on its politics of that day, or the brain fart of Trump, what or who is the solution and then claim the moral/ethical/ high ground from which to solve the problem through crippling sanctions, military action, or whatever else might work.
by A Guy Called LULU on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 7:26pm
But you did not make any reference to disinformation.
Sorry my sarcasm in replying to NCD's OAS rebuttal to Moon of Alabama misinformation apparently went over your head.
I think yoi are not too naive to know, though, that you basically post one world view on foreign policy over and over and over, applies to all situations. Rather than look for news, you read for bias confirmation and when you see something you agree with, you post it. Which is fine. More should share the pieces they like, mho.
The not fine part: then if someone posts a counterpoint you want to argue it over and over and over, the same arguments over and over and over. Rather than letting the reader just decide which point they find more valid, or like thinking about the contract. Nope, you want to harangue it to death over and over, the same argument. For years, decades even. As if people who are not in favor of seeing all news developments in terms of a single ideological explanation, could just finally be made to see if you argued the point til they screamed "UNCLE I can't stand saying the same thing anymore". I think you know you do this. You do it because you enjoy the challenge. I hate doing that, it depresses me and I find it a waste of precious time when I could be learning new complexities.
Other than that, all I have to say is: AAARGH. I refuse to play. Especially now that you have facetiously picked up on the world "nuance" as if you have always done it instead of being the one scoffing at it.
One final thing: want to make it clear that it's not your left opinions that do it., nope. Member Jolly Roger is quite left, and I enjoy interacting with him just fine, find it very stimulating, we are actually pals that have met.
Rather, it's that the single one world conspiracy that I refuse to play with. It's not challenging to me, just irritating after so many years. To me, it only deserves ridicule, sorry. No nuance on that. On foreign policy, you actually think like a lot of conservatives think, just a mirror of them. It's MAGA either way, a powerful U.S. entity/being in charge of everything. They think it's god, you think it's the devil. Maddening. The wold is so much more complex than a single explanation for everything that goes on.
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 8:42pm
Did anyone here endorse the Trump action?
Odds are anything Trump does anywhere likely makes things worse. That doesn't make Maduro the reincarnation of Simon Bolivar.
We contested your "Maduro is the golden fruit of a thriving popular democracy threatened by nefarious forces in the US", and therefore Putie is the honorable, faithful friend of democracy as he is a supporter of Maduro.
Wraps up your usual US is evil, Putin is a saint meme.
by NCD on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 8:18am
An action is good or bad irrespective of who else agrees or disagrees. Though I do tend to hope that Trump won't take action I agree with because I don't trust him to proceed in a consistent and reasonable manner. For example I think China needs to be held to account for it's theft of intellectual property and tariffs might be a necessary incentive to negotiate but I don't trust Trump to do it.
There are very credible allegations of voter irregularities that lead one to legitimate questions over whether Maduro won the election. He has jailed and threatened hundreds of opposition candidates and leaders. Maduro has attempted to dissolve the National Assembly and has at least successfully neutered it's power. Would it be acceptable if Trump dissolved congress? He has set up a hand picked group to rewrite the Venezuelan constitution. Would it be acceptable for Trump to rewrite the American constitution?
I think it's clear that Maduro is moving in an increasingly authoritarian direction. He's shutting down democracy in the country and moving toward a left wing dictatorship. If Maduro was a right wing dictator you would advocate the US end the relationship and push for democratic reforms. If he were a right wing dictator you would likely support the actions taken if a progressive president you supported took them. But since he's a left wing dictator you advocate for, what?
by ocean-kat on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 2:55pm
Ditto.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 3:01pm
Mostly ditto too but for a couple things.
Your first sentence is half right. I would support maintaining diplomatic relations and push for democratic reforms. Your second sentence is wrong. If he were a right wing dictator of Venezuela I would still not try to change the situation by bankrupting the people and starving them in the hopes they would rise up against him. Third sentence: I was against our treatment of Venezuela all thru Obama"s term but then I would hardly call Obama a progressive on foreign policy. Starting with Chavez I would have tried to make Venezuela a friend as they were in the past and an ally.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 10:05am
I'll admit I haven't been following the story in Venezuela comprehensively and deeply. But to the degree I've been following the story I see no crippling sanctions during the Obama administration that would in any way bankrupt the people or starve them. There were no economic sanctions on the country's ability to trade in particular no sanctions on the sale of oil. All I read about was sanctions against some government officials accused of human rights violations.
It's seems very clear to me that there were serious violations of human and civil rights in Venezuela and these government officials likely responsible. What response do you think the US should make? Nothing? Sanctions against some individuals is about the most benign response our government could make. What so called crippling sanctions are you talking about that perhaps I missed? In what way did the Obama administration attempt to change the situation by bankrupting and starving the people? Sanctions on several government officials would in no way seriously affect the economy of the country or the health and welfare of the mass of the people.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 4:44pm
I think I see your problem in our 'failure to communicate'. From the middle of my comment you are responding to, my words. Direct quote:
In first sentence I am saying how, in principle, I would not use sanctions if they are aimed at changing the leadership through the main pain being laid on the population. In the next sentence, after a break that clearly marks the change in subject, I am responding to your claim that I would change my mind on this other subject one way or the other depending on whether I liked the President. I did not accuse Obama 0f crippling sanctions in this case, I think he mostly just carried on with established policy and ratcheted it up just a bit. But I think I can see why you went wrong..
Obama was mostly a placeholder in this area of policy as far as I can see. He never backed of off the aggressive anti-Venezuela policies of the Shrub administration as I recall. I am confident that you have heard of the ratchet theory. I think that broadly speaking that this is an example .
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 9:19pm
Jeez you are such an ass. Ok, what crippling sanctions did Bush put in place that attempted "to change the situation by bankrupting the people and starving them in the hopes they would rise up against him?" The only reason the socialist revolution of Chavez lasted so long was because the price of oil was high and the US did nothing to impede Venezuela from selling it. It's thick heavy crude and the US has almost all the refineries capable of handling it. If Bush had sanctioned Venezuela like it did Iran and Iraq the US alone could have destroyed the economy. But it didn't. You are fucking clueless. Or explain how I'm wrong. List the sanctions put in place by Bush. Explain how the collapse of the economy and the lack of food was caused by the US and not by the failure of socialism when faced with lower oil prices.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 9:55pm
I didn't endorse the Trump action:
Did anyone here endorse the Trump action?
Odds are anything Trump does anywhere likely makes things worse.
by NCD on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 11:45am
No one specifically endorsed Trumps action. I saw plenty of justification of his action and quick pushback on any objection to his action and nobody who would say they thought it wrong.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 12:10pm
There is justification for action to get Venezuela back on it's feet, no one here except you know how to even begin that, your solution, let Maduro be Maduro.
by NCD on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 12:19pm
Venezuela is in the bottom 4 coutries of the world (forget actual measure) despite massive oil reserves. Maduro's making Haiti look good. Democracy is not a suicide pact.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 12:25pm
Who you gonna believe, Moon of Alabama, or OAS?
I believe MOA gave a pretty dispassionate account of the situation. He has a pretty good record. I am sure you can google around and find something he has been wrong about. I have not seen that he puts out deliberate distortions or bullshit I believe the OAS action is important to note and I do not dismiss it but the OAS is a political organization. I intend “political” in this instance as an adjective with incriminating connotation. So, I don’t think the OAS stand is the word of god on the legitimacy of Trump regarding Venezuela. When the leadership in those countries was more left or liberal or whatever, so was the OAS. Every member state voted to condemn the coup in Honduras. They have moved right as the leadership of the member states has. I cannot know, but I would be willing to bet, that every OAS representative in every member state got a call from the State Department or through some other channel saying what was expected of them. Does that sound reasonable or does it sound too conspiracy ish?
Maduro is a despot? As if that answered all questions.
From below
That characterization of my position is complete bullshit but I guess I won't expect you to quit responding like a wise-ass punk kid who thinks Rush Limbaugh type dialogue sounds clever as long as you get props for being cute.
by A Guy Called LULU on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 9:27am
I don't see any mention there of the masses that protested with their feet and those that would still like to, one poll said a majority would like to!
Edit to add: I would like to note that the Wikipedia entry, unlike many on controversial topics, has no editor's note on it about having "issues". That's because it is a non-biased scholarly and thorough piece that is extremely well sourced. The exodus of biblical proportions is real, it is a fact.
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 8:29pm
Came to mind: will the diplomats care? Because: are they getting paychecks, maybe they already went home? So I googled and I found this: The State Department Just Told U.S. Diplomats to Return to Work With Pay, Jan. 17 @ Time.com.
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 5:00pm
Marco sez:
More surprisingly, Never Trumper Ana Navarro sez:
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 5:13pm
It will be interesting ti see how the neighborhood reacts, given there's a lot of this tension going on:
Ecuador to tighten controls on Venezuelan immigrants after murder
Reuters-Jan 20, 2019
Ecuador to tighten controls on Venezuelan immigrants after murder ... though most continue to Peru, fleeing a hyperinflationary collapse back ...
Peru enforces tough measures for Venezuela migrants
Aljazeera.com-Dec 26, 2018
In Peru, immigration officials are cracking down those working without a ... for those fleeing the economic and political crisis in Venezuela....
2018 Year in Review: The Year of Venezuelan Migration
Caracas Chronicles-Dec 30, 2018
A Viral Video Of A Venezuelan Stabbing His Girlfriend Led To Attacks On Refugees
BuzzFeed News-Jan 22, 2019
When a Venezuelan immigrant stabbed his young girlfriend to death on the streets of Ecuador, the police stood by watching. Hours later, mobs attacked other Venezuelan refugees.
The response to Saturday’s attack underscored growing tensions in the region over an unprecedented Venezuelan exodus across South and Central America. The United Nations estimates that 220,000 Venezuelans are living in Ecuador, where the government declared a state of emergency in three provinces in August after a spike in arrivals.
After the attack, Ecuador’s President Lenín Moreno tightened rules for Venezuelans in the country and deployed special police units to patrol the streets. “We have opened the door for them but we will not sacrifice anyone’s safety,” Moreno tweeted shortly after L.G. was taken into custody.
Hyperinflation and widespread shortages have forced Venezuelans to flee in staggering numbers: Colombia is currently hosting over 1 million, Peru about half a million, and Panama some 94,000, according to the UN. The crisis there is unlikely to abate anytime soon: President Nicolás Maduro won reelection in May amid allegations of electoral fraud....
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 8:42pm
On the neighbors from A.P. Latest Updates @ Miami Herald (also Pompeo says they are not gonna pull out!):
by artappraiser on Wed, 01/23/2019 - 10:25pm
Interesting Latino writer I have just started following on Twitter, opines in response to newly elected U.S. Rep Ilhan Omar:
(BTW know nothing about his bestseller nor much else about him, he says Writer at
@WIRED. Author of NYT bestseller 'Chaos Monkeys'. Formerly@Facebook,@YCombinator,@GoldmanSachs. Yes, I live on a boat and in a yurt. I was just attracted to the way he words his thoughts)by artappraiser on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 9:40pm
quotes from an expert on the Venezuelan military that caught my eye
from U.S. orders all non-emergency diplomatic staff out of Venezuela, advises visiting Americans to leave
"U.S. citizens residing or traveling in Venezuela should strongly consider departing," the State Department alert said
By Carmen Sesin & Gorky Siemaszko @ NBCnews.com, Jan. 24, 7:16 pm
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/24/2019 - 11:34pm
by artappraiser on Fri, 01/25/2019 - 12:56pm
Little Marco doing a Trump thing with his base?
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/26/2019 - 2:03am
Here's more from Marco, his spin on the situation:
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/26/2019 - 2:08am
Official convicted over Iran-Contra scandal appointed to help 'restore democracy' in Venezuela
Elliott Abrams withheld information from Congress over secret funding of paramilitaries
By Andrew Buncombe @ TheIndependent.co.uk, 4 hours ago
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/26/2019 - 2:06am
at UN Security Council meeting Saturday Britain, Germany, France and Spain all said on Saturday they would recognize Guaido if Maduro failed to call fresh elections within eight days, an ultimatum Russia said was “absurd” and the Venezuelan foreign minister called “childlike" and Russia warned against any military intervention,
more here @ Reuters "U.S. calls on world to 'pick a side' on Venezuela; Europeans set to recognize Guaido"
page also has video showing Venezuelan Defense Attache to U.S.has broken with Maduro Sat. afternoon, an important defection from support of Maduro
by artappraiser on Sat, 01/26/2019 - 9:54pm
Venezuela suspends deadline for U.S. diplomats
By ASSOCIATED PRESS 01/26/2019 06:09 PM EST
by artappraiser on Sun, 01/27/2019 - 11:27am
Maduro Turns to Special Police Force to Crush Dissent
@ NYTimes.com, Jan.30 from Caracas
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/31/2019 - 3:12am
Marco Rubio sees an Erdogan problem here!
by artappraiser on Thu, 01/31/2019 - 7:46pm