Blacks and the Swimming Myth

    It's summer, and families are enjoying pools and beaches. It is also the time of year that concerns turn to the large number of black youth who don't know how to swim. Black children aged 5 to 19 are 3-5 times more likely to drown compared to their white counterparts. For years, racists have had a field day using bogus studies to describe changes in bone density and buoyancy in blacks to explain the differences in swimming ability. Racists need something to latch onto to feel superior.

    The most likely cause for the lack of black swimmers in the United States is lack of access to swimming pools. Lack of swimmers makes the most sense given the history of segregation in other sports. Blacks were felt to be incapable of possessing the mental skill to play thinking positions in football like quarterback and middle linebacker. When blacks were given the chance they excelled. Similar lack of access to tennis courts and hockey rinks created a lag in participation in those sports. Blacks have entered the arena of Grand Prix racing and won championships there as well. In the ranks of coaching football and managing baseball, blacks have proven their mettle once they were given a chance.

    Swimming is different than other sports because knowing how to swim can save your life and the life of someone else. There are programs that target black youth to encourage learning how to swim. The children have a host of role models that can serve as inspiration. Black Olympic champions and top caliber swimming teens put the lie to the racist meme of abnormal black bodies accounting for the low level of swimming ability in the black community.

    The history of access to swimming in the United States is tainted by racism and segregation. Prior to slavery, West Africans often were better swimmers than whites. In fact many sailors could not swim. During slavery, a slave who could swim was an escape threat. Swimming was forbidden. After slavery there were attempts to regain swimming skills. A century ago, there were black beachfront areas from the Chesapeake to Mississippi. This is documented in "The Land Was Ours: African American Beaches from Jim Crow to the Sunbelt South" by Andrew W. Kahrl. As the land became more valuable, Jim Crow laws and racist businessmen and politicians schemed to take the beachfront property from blacks. Opportunities for swimming were limited. The story of first the creation of municipal pools, the segregation of those pools, and the abandonment of the pools when blacks moved in is told in  "Contested Waters: A Social History of Swimming Pools in America" by Jeff Wiltse.

    Efforts continue to encourage black parents to teach their children to swim. We have witnessed black men and women win medals in the Olympics and other competitions. The racist nonscientific bilge about black buoyancy is a much of a relic as the other racist memes that floats around. We continue to work to save lives.


    RM, you said,

    "For years, racists have had a field day using bogus studies to describe changes in bone density and buoyancy in blacks to explain the differences in swimming ability. Racists need something to latch onto to feel superior."

    And you're absolutely right. If you'll notice, the fanatical preoccupation with the abilities of Black people is a fixation that seems to be exclusively dwelled upon by bigots.  There's a very simple reason for that, and you touched on it in your article. They're insecure, and when they come across the many Black people who are superior to themselves in life's various endeavors, they see it as a direct assault on their personal self-esteem.  That's why I asked you not to intervene on my behalf with the trolls on my wall.  Soaking up the agony of their insecurities is one of  the great joys of my life, and when you refocus their thinking in a way that forces them to try to justify their ridiculous propositions, it dilutes the purity of their agony, and thus, my joy, because it sends them into deception mode.  I enjoy feeling the full furry of their angst, because I know that for a bigot, suffering a sense of intellectual inadequacy in the face of a Black man is more painful than if I shot him.  In addition, he's denied the luxury death. It's something that he has to live with for the rest of his life.  So in their racist mentality, they've created their own Hell.
    Racists tend to be the mediocrity of White society, so they try to use the fact that they were born White to define themselves and to compensate for their lack of personal value. Their entire sense of self-esteem is based more upon group association than individual value and accomplishment, and their entire claim to personal significance is, "Well, at least I'm better than them." 
    That's what's driving radical conservatives so crazy about President Obama - he's walking, breathing, evidence that they cannot claim superiority by virtue of the color T-shirt they were born in, and that simple fact alone is causing them to suffer a severe attack of cognitive dissonance before the eyes of the entire world. That's also why they're so determined not to allow President Obama to be successful, even if it means destroying the country - and international corporatists are using the social division inherent in those sentiments to lower the standard of living of the American middle class.  
    Thus, this entire nation, and the future of our children, is being threatened by the desperate attempt of a handful of insecure bigots to maintain their delusions of superiority, and as far as they’re concerned, if the country has to be sacrificed for that cause, so be it.

    I understand how you gain  your entertainment and joy. Thanks for reading and responding 

    This topic came to mind because of swimming classes going on in an effort to save lives. There is a new focus on the history of blacks and swimming that challenge what racists imply about the reason for lack of swimming skills in the black community.


    I was raised in New Mexico where there was a similar preoccupation with the ability of Native American long distance runners.  Might there be genetic factors that give people of meso-American heritage greater running abilities?  Sure.  Anything's possible.  Or, look around a southwestern native american reservation and tell me what's the most likely sport to pursue? There is lots of open land for running but not so many weight rooms and swimming pools...


    There is a similar phenomenon in African countries. All you need to be a runner is a functioning pair of legs. No need for pools requiring care and sanitization of water resources that may be scarce.

    I don't know about racism and swimming but I remember reading Pat Conroy's  "The Water is Wide" and learning that the Gullah children living on or near the islands where he taught in South Carolina could not swim.  I remember that he was astonished by that fact, because the kids rode back and forth to school on boats.  They were afraid of the water and resisted any attempts to get them to learn for their own safety.  (alligators, maybe?)

    A few years ago, there was a drowning tragedy near Myrtle Beach at Sandy Island, an island only accessible to the mainland by boat.  One of the Gullah families was traveling in a small boat that capsized and four of them drowned.  I remember at the time there were discussions about the fact that many of the island residents didn't swim, even though they were surrounded by water and were only a few miles from the ocean.  The discussions weren't in any way racist;  it just seemed a curiosity.

    Ramona, please spend a little time reading the history of swimming in the United States. Many white US navy sailors could not swim at the time of the Civil War.

    In 1904, German American women and children died in a boating accident in NYC because they couldn't swim

    The popularity of swimming is relatively new. Black faced multiple barriers in learning to swim because of racism.

    Not chastising, just noting little attention was paid to swimming for a long time

    The Sea Islands where the Gullah reside do have alligators


    I may have found the whole thing more interesting than someone else might have because. . .I can't swim!

    And I've always lived around water.

    Oh this is silly Ramona. But I recall this old song:


    Okay, I just got chills, Richard.  When I was young we used to sing this song around our driftwood campfires on the shore of Lake Superior.  This is the one I remember.  We were good at harmony and this was a good one to harmonize to.  

    Thanks for the memory!  Wow. I had completely forgotten that.

    Income is also a huge factor. 67 percent of children raised in families with < $50K are poor swimmers. I haven't seen a study, but I'm willing to bet that education and healthy lifestyle are also strongly correlated. So inability to swim may be one more side-effect of poverty that disproportionately affects disproportionately poor African-Americans.

    That said, it looks like there is an additional racial/cultural factor even after discounting income. Latinos earn only marginally more than than Blacks, but they are stronger swimmers--42 percent vs 31 percent. 58 percent of white children, by contrast, are strong swimmers. 

    Actually, the biggest outlier is the Asian American community. Though Asian-Americans lead the country in income and education, only 34 percent are strong swimmers, just slightly higher than Blacks. Go figure.

    Unfortunately, there aren't nearly as many public swimming pools as you might think, and the numbers are dwindling. Community pools are in trouble, and that affects people of all ages and races - but kids most importantly. Learning to swim is a life saving tool most effectively taught in a controlled body of water; without free access to a swimming pool it likely won't be achieved. The "free" aspect is essential for inner-city and low income kids, and that does create a racial disparity.

    From the above link:

    And finally, perhaps the greatest reason saving community pools matters so much to so many is they teach a vital skill. As opposed to say, public tennis courts, a public pool provides the setting for learning a potentially life-saving skill. As the well-known African-American swimmer Sabir Muhammad once told an ESPN reporter, "No one dies from not being able to play basketball."

    I hereby render unto rmrd the Dayly couplet award for this here Dagblog Site, given to all or rmrd from all of me for this wonderful line:

    Black Buoyancy

    I have never seen those two words together as far as I can recall.

    The entire metaphor just grabbed me!

    Maybe you are quoting someone, but then I would give you the quote of the day.

    On the one hand, the poorer casts have problems finding swimming holes, unless they live in Wisconsin or Minnesota. These sister States have thirty thousand lakes after all between them.

    I picture this 'race' struggling in an attempt not to drown.

    Then I think about the authorities guilty of water-boarding.

    I can go on and on.

    Black Buoyancy.

    I will remember this. 

    Thanks DDsmiley

    Since Minnesota is the land of ten thousand lakes, does that mean Wisconsin has twenty thousand lakes?

    About that 10,000 lakes business.  Here in Michigan we challenge that nonsense.  (Our competition with Wisconsin is about which state has the worse governor.  Ours is bad but theirs is badder.)

    Actually Minnesota has around twenty thousand lakes.

    Wisconsin has around ten thousand but objects telling all who will listen that most of our lakes are really ponds. ha

    This is a wonderful post - thank you rmrd!  Not only swimming pools but tennis courts too. Has anyone read this recent article by David Zirin about Serena Williams?




    Thx. That Nation article was powerful.Serena is a phenomenon. 

    Swimming pools, tennis courts, golf courses, fencing, auto racing, ice skating, etc. have not made access easy, but we still see champions shine through. Swimming is the one activity that can save your life.

    Eadweard Muybridge, groundbreaking photograpic & kaleidiscopic studies of the human body as well as animals in motion, 1887 and thereabouts.


    Here are "Racists" at Howard University using "bogus studies" to back the "myth" that blacks don't have the right bodies for swimming (but do for other sports - I was watching marathon runners yesterday & horn-of-Africa runners seem quite different from usual American body types) - even as USA Swimming explores other cultural & demographic factors:

    Scientists Theorize Why Black Athletes Run Fastest

    by Karen Rowan, Health Editor   |   July 13, 2010 10:04am ET

    Twenty-eight of the last 38 world record holders in the men's 100-meter dash have been black athletes, and researchers at two universities think they know why.

    A new study by researchers at Howard University, a historically black school in Washington D.C., and Duke University in North Carolina suggests why black athletes may outperform athletes of other races in running events. Physical differences in the length of the limbs and the structure of the body mean the center of gravity tends to be higher in the bodies of black people, the researchers say.

    Since 1968, the world record holders in the men's 100-meter dash have been black athletes. And since 1912, when the International Association of Athletics Federations started keeping track of the record holders in that event, only 10 non-black athletes out of 38 individuals have held the title.

    "There is a whole body of evidence showing that there are distinct differences in body types among blacks and whites," said researcher Edward Jones, who researches adolescent obesity, nutrition and body composition at Howard University. "These are real patterns being described here. Whether the fastest sprinters are Jamaican, African or Canadian, most of them can be traced back generally to Western Africa."

    Why center of gravity matters

    Although there are also cultural factors at work, it all comes down to body makeup, Jones said.

    "Blacks tend to have longer limbs with smaller circumferences, meaning that their centers of gravity are higher compared to whites of the same height," said Adrian Bejan, Jones' co-author, an engineering professor at Duke University. "Asians and whites tend to have longer torsos, so their centers of gravity are lower."

    "These differences are small, and we don't really see them when we look at someone," Bejan told Life's Little Mysteries. "We are only rarely struck by how long someone's legs are."

    But these small differences certainly matter in races lasting less than 10 seconds, Bejan said.

    The height of a person's center of gravity affects how fast his feet are moving when they hit the ground, Bejan said. Each step a runner takes is like falling except the athlete breaks the fall with his foot. So the feet of a person with a higher center of gravity will hit the ground faster than someone with a lower center of gravity.

    Torsos and legs

    In the study, the scientists gathered data available from the militaries of 17 nations. Militaries measure their recruits for uniform fittings and are a reliable source of data, Bejan said. To approximate torso length, the scientists compared the average height of the military men with their sitting height – the distance from a chair to the top of the head.

    Results showed the average sitting height of blacks was about 1.5 inches (3 cm) shorter than that of whites who were the same height. This means that, among blacks and whites of the same height, the legs of blacks were longer (think of a high-waisted person), while the torsos of whites were longer.

    This physical difference gives a black athlete an advantage, even against an athlete of another race is who is taller and has a higher center of gravity, said Bejan. From a physics perspective, Bejan said, the legs do the work of running and the torso of the body is just extra weight that the legs must carry, so the race goes to the runners with longer legs and shorter torsos.

    By contrast, whites tend to have the advantage in swimming, where a longer torso allows for faster speeds.

    "Swimming actually generates a wave. The sport is the art of surfacing on that wave. When the wave is bigger – because the torso is longer – they go faster," Bejan said.

    The study was published online this week in the International Journal of Design and Nature and Ecodynamics.

    Bonus: The Ideal Swimmer's Body, Ideal Body Types for Different Sports, Your "Ape Index" and How It Affects Your Swimming (ratio of arms to body length) from SwimSmooth. "It's [sports success] about 55:45, genes to environment," says Mike Rennie, professor of clinical physiology at the University of Nottingham Medical School in Derby, as he notes"In swimming, only 5-10% of the propulsive force comes from the legs, so technique is vital." To illustrate his point, he cites triathletes, who are all extraordinarily fit, yet who may fail to reach competition standard if their swimming technique is poor. "


    The Scientific Theory [note: the first half goes into the Cultural Theory - fear, access to pools, peer habits, etc.] Here is original Duke University article on joint Duke/Cornell study.

    The human body is amazing.  Despite all of our cultural differences, us humans are roughly the same.  Studies show that intergenic DNA, (around 70% of our DNA) has no apparent function.  Genes are around 5%.  Around 99.8% of the DNA sequence in all humans is identical.  That leaves a small margin for major differences.

    But certain studies claim that that small margin has a large affect.  Prior to writing this, my father showed me a study that he had stumbled across that clearly explained concept of the centre of gravity of the human body.  The centre of gravity, believe it or not, is found in the length of the torso.  Duke’s Pratt School of Engineering’s Professor Adrian Bejan has formulated a theory that may be of great aid to solving the conundrum.

    Professor Bejan, along with Ph.D. candidate Edward Jones, Jordan Charles believe in a theory states that athletic success–and failure–lies in the center of gravity.  The longer the torso, the lower the center of gravity.  The lower the center of gravity, the larger wave one makes.  Read what Jones had to say:

    There is a whole body of evidence showing that there are distinct differences in body types among blacks and whites.  These are real patterns being described here — whether the fastest sprinters are Jamaican, African or Canadian — most of them can be traced back generally to Western Africa.  Swimmers tend to come from Europe, and therefore tend to be white.

    Jones and Bejan agreed that it is not necessarily linked directly to race, rather, it is linked to anatomy.  They said:

    Blacks tend to have longer limbs with smaller circumferences, meaning that their centers of gravity are higher compared to whites of the same height.  Asians and whites tend to have longer torsos, so their centers of gravity are lower.

    The centre of gravity is three percent higher in blacks than in whites.  As a matter of fact, many measurements show that a black men have a higher centre of gravity than white men of the same height.

    According to Bejan,

    “Locomotion is essentially a continual process of falling forward. Body mass falls forward, then rises again. Mass that falls from a higher altitude falls faster. In running, the altitude is set by the location of the center of gravity. For the fastest swimmers, longer torsos allow the body to fall forward farther, riding the larger and faster wave.”

    Still, there have been numerous studies about the bone densities and buoyancy of either race.  According to the American Journal of Human Human Biology, an experiment was conducted studying the buoyancy of thirteen black males and thirteen white males.  They were matched for age, weight, and height.  In a swimming pool, they were tested for vertical and horizontal buoyancy.  Similarities were found in the breathing patterns of both races, eliminating the notion that the black swimmers were afraid of sinking, thus affecting the ability to float.

    The main difference was this: the whites had significantly higher fat distribution; the more fat, the more buoyancy.

    As for the bone densities, Edward Jones stated something that should ring a bell: black women have a lower incidence of osteoporosis than white women because of the increased density of their bones.  The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism stated that at certain skeletal areas, bone density is 4.5–16.1% higher for black than for white men and was 1.2–7.3% higher for black women than for white women.


    Pure densitist nonsense. As a Non-Buoyant American, I certainly appreciate that density affects flotation ability. The difference is easily confirmed by a simple scientific experiment in which I am placed in the deep end of the pool and instructed to remain motionless and exhale. I will sink straight to the bottom and remain there until I either kick myself up or drown, at which point the chemical decomposition process will reduce my body density, and I will return to the surface. By contrast, the average American will bob on the surface while alive and motionless.

    This physical difference has led to much discrimination against me and my kind. In order to pass a densitist swim test in my youth, I was forced to perform the aptly named  "Dead Man's float" for three minutes. My Buoyant instructor, demonstrating a wilfull ignorance of basic physics, chastised and penalized me for wiggling too much, refusing to admit that without the wiggle, I would have performed a true dead man's float.

    Yet, aside from the Dead Man and certain varieties of backstroke, we Non-Buoyants can actually swim quite well, thank you very much, and I strongly resent your bigoted densitist insinuation that above average density prevents us from learning to swim. We are human beings, not lead weights.

    Mike, you have attacked my prose from time to time.

    I took the time to look up 'densitist' at three different sources and even the spelling software present here has no idea what 'densitist' means. hahahahhah

    At first I considered the possibility that the term had something to do with molars. hahahaahah

    Anyway you got me laughing whilst I am engaged in other activities. hahahah

    The pro-buoyancy power structure is anxious to pretend that densitism does not exist.


    That's all I got.

    You should write for the repub debates. hahahahah

    I confess, I'm discriminating against you because you're black, you buouy weight balloon you...


    This illustrates the problem when layman try to talk science. They don't understand scientific protocols necessary to produce verifiable and repeatable results. The first problem with your so called "scientific" experiment is it was not double blind. You knew you were in water and affected the outcome by "swimming." An actual experiment would place you in water without your knowledge. Would you then sink, "swim"  without conscious choice, or would you do a dead man's float? Proper protocol would find some way to cause you to not be aware of the presence of water, for example bashing you a half dozen times on the side of the head with a tire iron. My initial hypothesis is that in this experiment you would do the most absolutely true "true dead man's float." Of course to verify the results we'd have to perform the same experiment on most if not all so called Non-buoyants.

    It's science.

    Unbelievable. This guy wants to bash me over the head and drown me for some twisted science experiment, and then he shows me a video of a witch getting burnt to death for density-related issues. If I were black or gay or Muslim, everyone would be up and arms, and he'd be banned from the site. But because I happen to be dense, everyone is like whatever, another dead Non-Buoyant.

    We feel your pain


    Lol.  We do?


    This is pretty gooooooooooood. hahahaha

    he shows me a video of a witch

    People just don't understand science. But I'm gratified that you at least have enough respect for science that you can admit that the women in the video was a witch, proven by logic and the scientific method.

    But Ocean, I wonder which witch?

    I am so confused.

    But then again, I am always confused.



    Simply present a peer-reviewed study on swimmers that supports that your race-based theory applies to swimming. Nothing you present has been directly proven to impact swimming.

    If you had research funding that was limited, would you spent it seeing if blacks could be taught to swim, or would you test black buoyancy to prove that they could not swim?


    Using bone density, black females should be just as able to swim as white males

    There you have it. I think it's likely that one can measure small physical differences that might marginally effect ability in some sport. Just as shaving all body hair marginally affects swimming speed and endurance. While statistically significant individual intra-racial differences are likely as great  as inter-racial differences. I've yet to see any evidence that those small differences would affect a person's ability to swim in any meaningful way.

    I'm not your peer review batch. If you care, look it up. AFAIK this is standard University research - even by a black college in part, which should give you goosebumps, no?. You of course will have some vague problem with it.

    See ocean-kats's comment above on scientific research.

    Wow, it took you long enough. I saw you do drive-bys with Rush Limbaugh style comments and knew you couldn't help yourself. I put black buoyancy out there especially for you. You finally found the study. I knew that you would draw the wrong and biased conclusion. I knew you were too busy watching Amos N' Andy to see if there was an editorial accompanying the article or if the papers' authors had made any public comment. They had a conversation on radio station WNYC.

    The authors noted that they studied specific body types. They point out that race is a social not scientific construct. The author from Howard University pointed out that there are runners from Canada, the Caribbean, and parts of Europe with identical body types to the blacks studied and noted successful runners from these regions.

    The authors also point out that  given athletes like the Williams sisters and Tiger Woods, social scientists should investigate possible barriers to entry for blacks in sports with a history of exclusion

    I didn't get goosebumps because the authors did nothing dramatic when you get away from the hype and go to the details of the papers and the authors comments. The only people who would expect goosebumps are those with white sheets and hoods in their closets, especially those who repeated cite one study as proof of a belief that they hold. They should really find a good community college course teaching the scientific method.

    Thanks for playing.

    The Ape Index was a nice touch.


    They are all nice touches -even with the Ape Index there are common terms they don't switch just because of your ethnic group - that's not racism, it's colorblind science (we're all descended from Apes, no? at least that supremacist Darwin said so). There are scientists - including black ones - studying sports performance to see how body types and other factors affect, and in the case of swimming where blacks are underrepresented they're also looking at social/cultural factors. In the end there may or may not be any significant physical differences in the equations - like I should give a shit whether blacks or Peruvians or Eskimos can swim - but you present this as some kind of racism to even toss out a theory. Sports are a multi-trillion dollar business - they're putting wireless sensors on athletes to assess every technique and physiological aspect ofbwhat they do - it's how we squeeze every extra microsecond out of performance. You act like it's eugenics.

    You continue to embarrass yourself. The Ape index has had mixed results when applied to actual sports activities. Whether a given study will show that the Ape Index has significance is like a coin flip. One study will show a positive influence, the next will show no effect,

    The buoyancy study is a single study. The authors point out that sociological studies would produce real science. Most scientific studies actually end end up having zero impact on actually advancing science. Many results can't be reproduced, like the Ape Index. Many trace a marker that has no real clinical impact. C-reactive protein is a marker of inflammation. There is an inflammatory component to coronary artery disease. Use a drug to decrease CRP levels and you have some studies that decrease the risk of blocked coronary vessels others show no impact. Similar finding for apo-lipoprotein, You need reproducibility to demonstrate that a drug or other therapy actually has a positive effect on the majority of patients.

    You have no scientific background. You repeated select single studies and quote them as scientific gospel. Your bias you to reject other explanations for a finding including that it was a fluke. You made the race- based pleas for attention with your hashtag crap. You thought that a black guy participating in a study that you extrapolated to mean that all blacks can swim would give me goosebumps. You have a bias when it comes to issues of race, you keep verifying that fact.

    There are now Olympic level black swimmers.non-buoyant blacks exposed to swimming are setting records.There are ongoing efforts to overcome historical reasons for blacks not knowing how to swim. This has been going on for years.

    You cannot internalize new information. You were told about the scientific method and the hierarchy of study types required to be considered truly acceptable. You were too busy watching a racist TV show to try to improve. Thus here we are with you clinging to faulty data in one case and data that does not prove that blacks cannot become championship swimmers in the other. Your TV viewing has you rejecting the presence of black swimmers.

    I'm not the one looking for eugenics, you are. I'm not the one rejecting societal impact on why blacks have a low percentage of swimmers, you are. You even gloss over what the authors of your buoyancy paper actually said about societal issues and race as a societal construct.

    I know who you are and what you are.

    Peracles, there have been barriers to swimming for blacks in the U.S. Lack of swimming pools in urban areas is a large factor.

    Black participation in baseball has declined. MLB focuses current recruiting on college campuses. Two-percent of college baseball players are black, the number of professional black baseball players decreased by half. To increase black participation, MLB will have to look elsewhere for black players. Blacks did not have a sudden physiologic change that makes them incapable of playing baseball.

    Black swimmers will increase as more have access to pools

    BTW, Jamaicans and folks from Trinidad, Bahamas, Bermuda, et al have easy access to water and many are gifted runners - there is no big racism these days limiting their swimming opportunities, and I doubt they're worried about their hair. If they wanted to and/or could they would be leading Olympics swimmers. They're not. Nature or nurture or both? Who knows, who really cares. Hindus aren't leading the pack either and they have a whole ocean to work with. One of life's little mysteries.

    Thanks for the KKK and Rush Limbaugh insults - I of course realize this was the only reason you posted this diary was to find a chance to call me a racist, and you and your Blomance buddy must be having quite the laugh. But more significant is it helps me cut my addiction to discussing things with absolutely no importance. Perhaps using my 12-step program analogy I really have hit bottom, and you in your peculiar way have driven that point home. Maybe it will stick this time. Best of luck.


    "You seem to be betraying the assumption that I think like you and share the flaws in your character."

    "So all of the dark recesses in the caverns of your mind are your own, and you need to work on them."

    Mr. Wattree paid attention to me - rmrd barely noticed you.

    " I put black buoyancy out there especially for you...The only people who would expect goosebumps are those with white sheets and hoods in their closets,..."  - different kind of ribbing, but we've both been taken down a peg by the local übermenschen. The pain, it burns...

    Maybe we can skip off together to work on our "flaws".

    We're shutting down the comments. Enough. Rmrd, this is a ToS warning. The next time you pick a personal fight with PP, it will mean a suspension.

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