Yeah I was just going through Aquinas again. When are we responsible?

We release our dogs into the night and an unsuspecting wanderer is killed. Are we responsible?

Tens of thousands die at an internment camp ten miles from our village. Are we responsible?

Where does culpability lie?

Cheney said that while he voted against Congressional Resolution to free Neson Mandella, it was because of things attached to the resolution and that he knew that everyone wished to free Mandella, he must vote against the resolution?

I digress. But where is culpability?

Surely the one who releases the dogs? Would you not think?

Great post Oleeb. Not necessarily covered real well in the mass media.

Maybe we need more posts like this. Not maybe. Always.

This fits right in with the rhetoric of violence that has been building among the rightwing crowd, and leading to actual violence.

We had Bachman's "armed and dangerous" and subsequent assassinations of police officers.

We have Glenn Beck telling his rightwing gunnut homicidal fans that "Obama is coming for your guns".

We have wingers get arrested every few weeks for making death threats to the president.

Now anti-abortion terrorism.

We must put an end to domestic terrorists and their enablers and propagandists/apologists. Before we have another Atlanta Olympic bomber, or another Timothy McVeigh.

Jesus H. Christ. (blesses himself) I am beside myself.

We all are beside ourselves.

Do you not think?

When will people recognize that so many issues are tied to religion (including Christianity, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddha, etc.) and therefore it is religion that is the problem?

You will never have a "liberal" Catholic group denounce this act because at the base core, a true Catholic -- who follows the religion -- doesn't believe in abortion.

It's time for people to recognize that there are no shades of gray when it comes to matters of faith, it's either one way or the other.

Now, if you want to found a *new* religion and pick and choose tenets of your choice, that's another matter. But you can't backpatch your traditional religion today. Despite the fact that few, if any, religions will condone this killing, you will also find that few, if any, religions that believe abortion is wrong will actively crusade against these people either.

Deal with the root problem.

Holy Crap! Cy this is too much.

Isn't this group the complete definition of a terrorist organization? Where the hell is homeland security? The killing of innocent Americans for religious fanatical reasons is the reason that "Homeland security" was created right?

Where the hell is the FBI and CIA on this one? Or is it only foreign religious terrorists they are interested in?

I am not a Christian, but in the days of my youth I studied the History of Religions, and am familiar with the scriptures and the history of western philosophy. All of you religious fanatics out there would do well to contemplate this one phrase from the old testament:

"Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord."

Think of the end of violence that would occur if every person convinced they had a monopoly on the absolute truth would commit to and abide by that one little phrase. Who does vengeance belong to, again? Not you or you or you, or me. Don't forget it, you true believer whackos!

As I wrote elsewhere many times today, it’s terrorism and it will continue I guess until someone shoots Bill O’Reilly, Randall Terry, and James Dobson in both arms (1993 attack on Tiller), bombs their offices and burns them to the ground (1986), blockades their offices (1991), cuts the wires to their office security systems, chops holes in their roofs and plugs up the drainage system, (last month), mounts protests at their churches, homes, and offices (repeatedly) and finally walks into the vestibules of their respective churches while they’re serving as ushers handing out church bulletins, with their wives upstairs singing in the choir, and shoots them to death, evidently in the face so that witnesses will have to tell the police who the victims are, just like Tiller.

Then maybe, just maybe, the kind of disgusting violent rhetoric these goons use to incite their unhinged followers against doctors like Tiller who perform legal abortions will cease.

Today I read a related article at Huffington Post and an undoubtedly sincere commenter asked, "Why did he stay in Kansas if he had been hounded and harassed there? Didn't he know it was dangerous?"

I couldn't believe the blame-the-victim rhetoric that has already begun.

He lived in Kansas. Kansas is a red state. So?
He should be killed for that?

And women should be raped for being outside their homes after dark, too, I suppose.

Absolutely! The "Army of God" is the very definition of a terrorist cell.

I escorted my friend through the maniacs outside a clinic several years ago. She needed an escort to even make it through the insane people yelling at us and blocking our path.

If Obama and the DOJ really believe in womens freedom of choice, under the law, now is the time to tell it like it is and uphold the law. Operation Rescue should be held accountable along with the others who spew the hatred on TV and the internet and at clinics.

Dr. Tiller was killed in his church.
I feel so sad for his loved ones tonight.

How desperate are the conservatives? The Supreme Court nominee is not getting them the funds they need, but maybe, if we do turn the killer into a martyr the money will flow again from those dumb sheep who abandoned the GOP this past election and stayed home.. Maybe now they will open up their wallets once again, for the unborn. It's the last fund raising topic they have left.

Good commentary.

Since Roeder has been arrested before, I want to know the story about the gun he used to shoot Dr. Tiller.

Instead, they are mostly stepping up their agitation, such as refusing to give communion to Democratic politicians.

I think you wanted to say "another Scott Roeder" -- the "alleged" murderer of Dr. Tiller.

The world could use more Dr. Tillers, men and women who stand up for people who cannot stand for themselves.

So who is Catholic Democrats? I see no specific church mentioned here. There are groups like "Jews for Jesus" which do not represent your typical Jew. I see this group, despite their laudable comments, in the same type bin.

Catholic Democrats is a "liberal" Catholic group. Just like the kind you said that we'd never hear "denounce this act because at the base core, a true Catholic -- who follows the religion -- doesn't believe in abortion."

Catholic Democrats is a liberal Catholic group and they are denouncing the act. Instead of trying to spin it so that you don't have to admit being wrong, why don't you just admit being wrong? Takes less energy.

And the logical outcome of the rhetoric and dogma they use.

An absolutely excellent commentary Cville. Thanks for the link! I highly recommend it to all.

Damn, right to the personal attacks, Orlando, eh?

Please go read Oleeb's comment. He not only understood my point, but was willing to discuss it like an adult.

When I see a group of liberal priests go on the record (as a group) then I'll believe we have heard from a Catholic group. Otherwise, all you are hearing from are concerned citizens.

Apparently in your zeal to work out your emotional issues with me, you missed my entire point.

You're so funny.

I can't talk right now. I'm crying.

Our homegrown Taliban even have their own version of Sharia Law, just like Mullah Omar has (Maybe our Catholic Bishops could be called Mullahs too as they like to have wars and want to control women):

Roeder, who in the 1990s was a manufacturing assemblyman, also was involved in the "Freemen" movement.

"Freemen" was a term adopted by those who claimed sovereignty from government jurisdiction and operated under their own legal system, which they called common-law courts. Adherents declared themselves exempt from laws, regulations and taxes and often filed liens against judges, prosecutors and others, claiming that money was owed to them as compensation.

McClatchy News Link

Great post. Thanks.

Which is exactly my point. Most people are "religious" because they were born into one or another. Following actual tenets -- or even knowing what your religion is about specifically -- isn't required. If it were, you'd see religion shrink and fade, and then we wouldn't have these problems.

Dude, I didn't miss anything in TF's post. His tone was flamingly obvious. But as my comment stated, he always uses this sign-off phrase - "Enjoy" - and he appends it with no italics or other separation (which you may get at other sites), to all his posts, no matter the subject matter. So sometimes his choice of subject matter (like "Military Raping Children") and then his sign-off "Enjoy" feels pretty self-indulgent. He could adapt his sign-off numerous ways (a dotted line, italics like at dKos, etc.), but his quirks seem to override any respect for the subject matter. Today's post had the same problem, being titled "Terrorist Onslaught In Kansas." Enjoy.

Oh yeah. Murder is sometimes ok. And religion is not "the" problem. That's a flagrantly ridiculous thing to say, for any of us coming out the back end of the 20th Century. Totalistic, black/white and hatred-filled forms of thinking have found plenty of non-religious soil to root themselves in. See: Stalin.

It's like debating an 11 year old.

See, when I say "Stalin," that's shorthand for a long line of non-religious people who do bad things. But it upset you, so I'll say... Pol Pot. The point was, YOU need to explain BOTH the fact of these monstrous non-religious people AND your view that religion is the problem. See how that works, CT? It's not "misdirection," it's called, attempting to get CT to explain his own dumb-ass statement that religion was THEproblem. I've given you an example where it isn't. Now YOU have to disprove that.

Go on, make Stalin sparkle!
Let's see Pol Pot dance!
You can do it!

For all our amusement - perhaps even yours, assuming you have a sense of humor - try this. Most or many TPM readers would likely be classified as non-religious. Now, you have made clear that you consider these people to be lower than dirt and impossible to reason with. So why should I believe that religion is THE problem, when these irreligious people are so clearly, in your view, substandard. ;-)

And yes, yawn, murder is sometimes ok. I regard wars as involving murder, but also - sometimes - I do think they're probably necessary. i.e. As a lowly individual sitting in Europe in 1941, faced with the reality on the ground, I might have had to support killing people. Sorry if this strikes you as a remarkable position. And THANKS for immediately going to the obvious next step, which is to find me supportive of torture. Wow! Pleasant lad, as always!

After living through yet another round of oh-so-enlightening debate with CT, it's clear you're not just supportive of torture, your comments are intended to take it to new heights. Well done.

My God. Is that... yam... dripping out of your ear?

Wow.

I yam what I yam.

Oleeb, I'm not sure you got my point here. I didn't say if people "understood" religion (because there is no way to "understand" voodoo fairy tales and belief) but rather they had to actually practice the religion.

In other words, if someone held them to their so called belief structure.

Your Protestant example is fantastic in this way. As you can see, as soon as you disagree, you split off and go to another church. Which means that the religion is totally arbitrary to begin with. See, for example, this explanation.

That most people are simply the religion they were born into proves that they haven't thought much about the issue. So why put any weight into arguments backed by religion?

It's mostly convention that we do. But religion can't survive without a rigorous dogma (don't forget that the Catholic Church is something like 1800 years old -- far older than any nation on earth) and it's the rigorous dogma that always gets in the way. And let's be honest: you can't prove to me that worshiping the sun is any less civilized that worshiping one of the gods we currently have. The indoctrination gets done early so it's hard to see around it, but there is no more evidence that god exists than that the sun (or moon or...) is god.

The killing of any human person is a sad thing and as a pro life supporter I feel deeply for Mrs Tiller who has now lost children in an earlier plane crash and suffered the horror of having her husband killed as she sat with him in church but your article is not logical John Brown was a violent man who laid seige to Harper's Ferry He was a keen abolitionist that did not mean that those who fought to make slavery illegal were the reason John Brown took violent action nor did it mean that they should have stopped campaigning against slavery.
Prayer, letter writing, supporting pregnant women are the peaceful means most pro lifers use because we love the human family and know that like slavery abortion is a gross abuse of human rights and in time I believe fairminded people will come to realise the sense in our position and begin voting in pro life candidates so that, as the British did in regard to slavery, we will achieve a peaceful transition to pro life legislation.

I don't think you are harsh oleeb and you have a right to your opinion like Ghandi I believe in peaceful protest by prayer and support for pregnant women and standing outside abortion clinics to give some women a chance to withdraw from a decision which is irrevocable because abortion is never a choice it is always a death sentence.
As to inaccurate sanctimony what is inaccurate or unscientific about the pro life position? You and I were both once a tiny collection of cells in a womb we are both alive and able to participate in this discussion because we were not aborted.Given the rhetoric of the pro abortion forces my mother would have been counselled to have me aborted Her health was frail, there was no money to support another child and a neighbour said in dismay but where are you going to put the baby?
When someone uses a pregnancy test kit from a chemist and it registers a positive reading they don't think I have a zygote inside me they know a new little person has begun the journey of life.
I believe every pregnant woman deserves support

It is a slippery slope to discuss these things, because 1-you never know who has a personal experience informing their opinion and who doesn't, and 2-you never know how much a woman goes through before ever considering an abortion.

What I wish we could all be agreed upon is that 1-shaming or harassing a woman into not going inside a planned parenthood is pathetic, wrong, and to me overstepping your bounds by far, and 2-that it is not murder in the sense that we charge someone with murder--as though someone can break into your home and give you an abortion.
It is death of a fetus, and as horrible as that is to me, I get angry when someone tries to force their moral issues on another private citizen making their own decisions about their own body.