Danny Cardwell's picture

    Lil Duval, Non Binary Genders & Questions About Rape

    Fact: there are transgendered people who live in a constant state of physical and sexual terror. In the last few years there’s been an increase in gang rapes, sexualized torture, and murders of transgendered women and men. Paradoxically, all of this violence is happening at a time when more and more people are fighting to affirm the rights of the LGBTQIA community. Much of the violence and fear transgendered people are experiencing is a last-ditch effort to push them back into the closet. This violence has no place in our society.


    Last Friday, as a guest on “The Breakfast Club”, Lil Duval opened himself up to the full wrath of the LGBTQIA community and their allies when he said, “This might sound messed up, but I don’t care, she dying,”. His response was to a question about a hypothetical sexual encounter with a woman who turned out to be a transgendered man. By Saturday, people who’ve never heard his name had an opinion about him and his comedy. By Sunday, there were calls to boycott “The Breakfast Club” for giving him a platform. 

    Washington Post / The Breakfast Club / YouTube


    This controversy is playing out on social media- that’s good and bad. Social media is a great snapshot of what people are thinking at any given moment, but the caustic environment found on many platforms make civil discussions almost impossible. There are hundreds of articles and blog posts attacking Lil Duval’s words, but what’s lacking is a serious dialogue about consent and what rights a man has in a sexual encounter of this nature.


    Disclaimer: I’m not attempting to defend Lil Duval or his statements.  


    Central to this discussion is the question of how much information about a potential sex partner is needed in order to give consent? If someone had a history of sexually transmitted diseases do you have the right to know? If someone is married or has a significant other do you have the right to know? If someone is addicted to alcohol or drugs would that have an effect on your decision to have sex with them? If someone was born the same gender as you do you have a right to know?


    Our society has no problem identifying a sex crime when the victim is a woman or child, but what rights, if any, do men have when it comes to sexual disclosure of a partner with a non-binary gender identity? I know I’ll be accused of centering the rights of men, but it was a man’s answer to this question that started the conversation. It’s possible for a CIS gendered male to hold no animosity towards the LGBTQIA community, and be upset if they were deceived into a sexual relationship they didn’t consent to. I don’t know if this factored into Lil Duval’s answer, but we can’t be so shocked by his response that we ignore what prompted it. People have a right to choose their sexual partners. This isn’t a controversial position to hold. When women aren’t given a choice, it’s rape. Children can’t consent so it’s rape, and a man who isn’t given enough information to consent is raped.


    With all of the work that’s been done to educate people about sexual assault it’s reasonable to expect adults to know what constitutes consent and what’s considered rape. Sex without consent is rape. It doesn’t matter what someone is wearing, what kind of reputation they have, or if you’ve had past sexual encounters with them. Every sex act should be consented to. This isn’t complicated; unless the sex act in question is between a man and a member of the transgender community.


    Lil Duval’s comments were seen as crude, crass, and offensive by a large segment of our society, but they also resonated with many of his core supporters. Transgendered people are under attack. They face threats many of us don’t see or have to worry about. Their fight is as existentially important to them as any fight anyone faces. I won’t disconnect their terror from this conversation, but we can’t allow that terror to usurp another person’s right to choose.  



    It’s possible for a CIS gendered male to hold no animosity towards the LGBTQIA community, and be upset if they were deceived into a sexual relationship they didn’t consent to. I don’t know if this factored into Lil Duval’s answer, but we can’t be so shocked by his response that we ignore what prompted it. People have a right to choose their sexual partners.

    We never know even our most intimate partners 100% and here we're just talking about a single sexual encounter. I mean, I daresay that most people who are Boomers and younger have had fleeting sexual encounters that we might not have had (or might have!) were we given full transparency into their pasts. Is a transgender woman a woman or is she some sort of woman with a asterisk? If a transgender woman is a woman, then how she became a woman doesn't make her a rapist for having sex with you without fully explaining it.

    Does Lil Duval consistently assure his sexual partners that he was a "man from woman born" before the clothes come off? If not, how do they know?  Does Lil Duval need people to ve "certified organic" to feel secure out there in the sex world?  Also... seriously... what are the chances? I doubt that anyone who goes through the trials of living so authentically that they'll embrace transgender identity is really out to fool people.

    I think this is the wrong jill to fight on. Yes, I noticed the typo. I'm leaving it.

    I think this is the wrong jill to fight on.

    I was going to agree with you but then I had this second thought: Danny writes for "Faithfully Yours", is a Deacon at his church, and has other positions which run along the lines of religious, and/or sociological and/or psychological and/or moral advisor.

    So if someone like him doesn't talk about these kind of issues, whose job is it?

    What I see from my own initial reaction: the problem in that he writes too much here like he is making a political argument! I.E.: Lil Duval’s comments were seen as crude, crass, and offensive by a large segment of our society, but they also resonated with many of his core supporters.  I wasn't aware that a comic had such things as "core supporters" and was in a leadership position. Wouldn't it be better to talk about Lil Duval's fans that might agree with Lil Duval on this, have the same feelings?

    I think the problem is that the style of writing should be more "advice column" and not political opinion. I.E.: people, you should think about this when you think that or say that or agree with that or do you realize what you are really doing when you are a celeb and use language like "she dying" to express in pop culture media that a certain sexual persona is a big turnoff to you? isn't there a better way to express that which won't feed hate?

    If one expresses sexual preferences in a more acceptable way, it should be no different than saying you like or dislike other things (blonds, food, movie, literature, big mamas, Danny's writing, Michael's scripts.....) No one but teh stoopids tries to debate someone into liking something that they don't like.

    Yes, but... he equates the unlikely event of somebody unknowingly having sex with a transgender person with rape. There's a better way of reaching people who are irrationally worried about this, right?

    OIC! Clear now. On that I am 100% with ya! Screwy analogy, is like the opposite of rape! Lil's scenario presumes he has been sexually attracted to the person, hooked up and then is turned off only when he finds out verbally that the chromosomes are different than the appearance.  Or perhaps not all body parts inside the clothing are not exactly what he expected. That says to me: Lil has some sexual desire issues to work out with a shrink, else some day he may want to "kill" someone for wearing a padded bra or having dyed hair. An oldie but goodie geek acronym : WYSIWYG wink.

    P.S. Happens all the time without transgender involved: one night stand, means:this person was not what I expected, therefore, no second time, but no need to "kill", no need to get all upset about it for crissakes. As a matter of fact one can even just say no once naked, it's rape when you ignore such a no, not when you say no.

    That says to me: Lil has some sexual desire issues to work out with a shrink...

    Or should go ahead and go as it grows...

    I'd guess that this type of deception is extremely rare. The question is asked as a passive aggressive way to get people to slam transgendered. That being said, Citizens do not have the right to take the law into their own hands. Killing the person that deceived you is not self defense, it's murder and should and likely would be prosecuted. If a crime has been committed the appropriate response is reporting it to the police. There is no death penalty for any of the numerous crimes of deception. The legal system, at least in England, has decided that the appropriate punishment for deception of this nature is jail time.

    Woman who pretended to be man to trick friend into sex jailed for eight years

    The hosts of the show got the controversial response they desired. There have been at least 14 transgendered women murdered in 2017. Many of the cases have not been solved. I seriously doubt that there is a high number of transgendered women killed because they deceived an unsuspecting man. Transgendered women of color are at the highest risk of murder. Poverty and lack of access to jobs probably plays an important role in risk.Deception  of straight males by transgendered women probably is at the same level of risk of encountering a transgender woman in a public bathroom. It is a non-issue.

    Surprisingly, Sessions says he will investigate transgender murders.


    Lil Duval says that he is not homophobic or transphobic. His problem is with a person not being honest about being transgender. Duval frames the argument as taking away his power of choice. He has a very credible argument. His argument is lost because he brought up murder as the method to deal with the situation.


    There have been 17 murders of transgender women in 2017. 14 of the 17 were women of color. 


    Edit to add:

    Condom use is advised. If you used a condom and then found out that your partner actually had HIV, you would likely be upset because you were not told the truth. Duval would feel betrayed if he found out his partner was transgender. Truth is important.

    If you used a condom and then found out that your partner actually had HIV, you would likely be upset because you were not told the truth. Duval would feel betrayed if he found out his partner was transgender. Truth is important.

    A bit of a false equivalence as there are no health risks associated with hooking up with somebody who is transgender. And, again, I still don't know what he's afraid of. In the unlikely event he takes a girl home only to find out she's biologically male, he can... you know... not have sex with her.

    If she has had successful gender reassignment surgery and is now phenotypically female, then what's the issue? Is somebody who has had surgeries and therapies to live as a woman allowed to actually live as a woman, or do they have to constantly disclose their previous gender?

      Truth is important. If you have sex with a woman who did not tell you she is married, you would be upset. Duval requires that he has sex with an XX female. That is his criteria. You don't get to set his criteria. 

      Nah, while I respect what you are trying to say, I don't agree that your catchphrase "the truth is important" applies in this situation in the least. 

      As a woman, I think everything about hooking up is a fucking lie, you get all tarted up to look as sexy as possible, like you don't 24/7, and you act your best self. Those firsts that end up in a continuing relationship, they are willing to accept faults and some reality BUT EVEN THEN:

      Is Lying Part of Loving? How distortion of the truth may help maintain harmony in intimate relationships @ Psychology Today

      Back to hooking up: While I believe Lil's intent that this is just about who he wants to have sex with and who he doesn't, and not that he doesn't  think of such persons as lesser human beings, I agree with Michael. Michael is trying to say hello, that's not reality, that's in theory. That it's entirely possible that he could hookup with a  transgender, could appear, even in bed, as his most lusted after "10", and he would never know. Sex is all in the head.

      He just makes himself look ridiculous by talking as if he could know, is all.  We are all actually at certain points along a male/female continuum, not totally one or the other. We use tools like clothes and behavior to appear on opposite ends, and to attract partners. Then we do different things, adjustments to please them in order to keep them if we want them.  And in many cases, with monogamy, once you age together, you get more alike, the man esmasculated, the woman less feminine. What me and Michael are saying: his admitting this makes him look silly. Which is fine, actually, because sometimes comics looking silly is good.


      Lil Duval does not have to the agree with your standard or Michael's standard. His mistake was threatening violence. He has free will to set his own criteria for having sex. I don't get why you think that he has to agree with you on this personal issue.

      Edit to add: 

      A gay male might have the same sense of betrayal if the guy they encountered turned out to be a female to male transgender.

      Sure... one might feel betrayed by later revelations about a lover. But is that really a big deal, particularly if we're talking about a hook up? Forget our comic's rhetorical threat of violence, Danny considers it rape by deceit, which seems silly to me.

      Yes, it does appear that sex a very very very serious thing to Danny. I've been feeling real sorry for myself the last few days, but in a way this thread been good for me, makes me grateful for one thing: I don't feel the need to take sex so seriously. wink

      Sounds like you didn't fully read or understand my comment.

      I don't see anywhere where I and Michael said anything about changing his mind or approach We asked this question: how would he even know? It's absurd to think he could know.

      But there is one thing he has to do if he wants fans and therefore make money: sell a persona, a brand.

      (Just like we all do when we are looking for partners. Persona's like: femme, ultra masculine, teddy bear...)

      Everybody needs to keep in mind that this is a comic, your first comment is the one that makes the most sense.

      He's being silly, and it's appropriate for his line of work.

      P.S. There was only one place I was disagreeing with something and it wasn't something Danny nor Lil said, it was with something you said,  "truth is important" as regards matters of love and sex. Ever hear of the word "romance"? It's not truth.

      Hey, buddy - one of my favorite movies for whatever reason (I hate the actors inin pretty much everything else) is True Romance. True. Romance. And that's a movie. When/if Hollywood starts lying to us, we're in trouble.

      way too late to worry about that


      Can't resist throwing this one in;

      1962 (author was LBJ's biographer no less):

      Ooh, those fleshtones and scratchmarks! Cue up some "Stray Cat Blues". From "That Woman" to "Cat Woman".

      It was a friggin' hypothetical question. Duval responded to nonsense.

      I read your post stating your position. You questioned why Duval took his position. Latent homosexuality was implied. You went over the top, suggesting the need for psychiatric intervention. Requesting a psychiatrist suggests that you want Duval to address his issues and change his mind. My reading comprehension is intact.

      Latent homosexuality was implied.

      Not by me. Was just pointing out everyone has visual triggers for lust. And that a transgender would have went out and bought some of those triggers. One can't know who some of them are without a lab test. He asks for lab tests to make sure what looks female is chromosonally female? Must be tough to get laid that way.

      I don't think it strange that a woman would feel violated if she had sex with a man who she didn't know was married. Similarly, I don't see it strange that Duval would feel violated by having sex with an XY woman. Both the woman and Duval would feel victimized. Implied violence is not the solution to betrayal.

      There are probably a dozen or more ways that lack of full disclosure before sex hurts another person. Most people have likely not disclosed something at one time or another that would cause another pain or psychological distress if discovered. Most men would likely find all of them forgivable, they'd forgive themselves and justify and rationalize what they've done as well as forgive others for what was done to them, except one. Undisclosed transgendered sex. The reason that is unforgivable for some men is extreme homophobia. That's why Lil Duval said he'd kill her and Cardwell equates it with rape.

      Lil Duval made himself a punching bag by suggesting violence. I do not for a second believe that if a female relative said she had been tricked into having sex with a married man, people would not be empathetic. Duval feels that taking sex with a transgender woman equates to having sex with a man. Is that homophobia?If that qualifies as homophobia? Duval comes from a culture, the United States, that stigmatizes men who date transgender women more than transgender women are stigmatized. 


      ​Duval picked the messages send by our culture. Duval States a sexual preference and is called a homophobe. Is he also a homophobe if he rejects advances from a phenotypic gay male? Duval suggests honesty is important in a sexual encounter. Others seem to have less rigid criteria. Many heterosexual males probably have the same feelings about sex with a transgender woman as Duval. Duval is taking the punches for a significant subset of men.

      People feel violated when a lie is revealed. Take the case of Rachel Dolezal, a white woman who presented herself as black. Dolezal rose to lead an NAACP  chapter. There was a huge sense of betrayal when her true ethnicity was exposed. Many still can't forgive her.


      Duval may be responding to a sense of betrayal more than indicting homophobia.Awoman who had  sex with a married man who hid his marital status, may not have been raped, but she was violated.


      I do not for a second believe that if a female relative said she had been tricked into having sex with a married man, people would not be empathetic.

      Sure, but I don't think I'd react more strongly than, "well, she shouldn't sleep with him again."

      The women in my family would show more empathy. The men would be blowing off steam by debating which of the guy's body parts should be broken. It would be all talk with no action, but we would not be as dismissive as you.

      Edit to add:

      Is a man reluctant to have sex with a transgender woman a homophobe?

      Is a man reluctant to have sex with a transgender woman a homophobe?

      No, but if a man is oddly preoccupied with the possibility, I have questions.

        The hosts of the show posed a question to Duval. Duval fumbled the answer by suggesting violence. 

        Well I guess he's never stuck his wanger in a glory hole taking whatever comes next. What a wuss. Life's full of surprises, like when the guy says "I'm a doctor" when he's really a broke married TV repairman or "no, I didn't cum" when out pops a baby for her to take care of (or an abortion to pay for) in a culture that celebrates having 3 bitchez with another couple on the side?. I don't frankly care what Lil what the fuck has to say, and I'd guess he's an overdressing smack talking poser from the word go, so WTF, we care about him caring about someone fakung it? It's the year of the fakes - we elected a fake based on fake news. Get used to it, hwre's our future.

        That does it, I know what you are, you're one of those nasty "cosmopolitans".

        Puh-leeze, metrosexual.

        Trump is the reason that the season of fakes needs to end.

        We can only hope. I'll even add an atheistic prayer if it'll help. "O indifferent nonexistent non-creator, we beseech thee..."

        Duval wants honesty in sexual encounters. Trump lies about receiving phones from Boy Scout leadership praising his speech at the Jamboree. I think Duval has the higher moral ground. Given Trump, that may not be saying much,

        Except in almost every sexual entreaty, we're luring and baiting and placing ourselves behind the mist attractive veil under the most attractive light. I've made love to girls with a broken past and sometimes before sometimes after they would tell their hurt secrets. Love and affection are a transaction of sorts we parlay into some kind of mutually accomodating union. But no one lays all their cards on the table and then calls it a game, much less a mystery or mystique. Every ugly boy or girl aims for the fences and ends up as far as can be; every shy wallflower musters courage for either permanent or a moment's blossom that might then turn into a shrew or varmint for good. There are few guarantees in this dance, and yet we should condemn one breed to ever disclose said secrets in advance, while the other be content to shroud idleness or deceit or unfaithfulness or illness of mind or whatever other frailties of body and spirit we suffer.

        In short, I was fine with the boy kissing me at the camp, kind of even liked it, but then it really pissed me off when I found out he was gay.

        I really think parts of this discussion has been disingenuous. Duval equates sex with transgender women as equaling sex with a man. I do not believe that he represents a minority opinion. I provided a link to an article noting that there is a stigma attached to a man dating a transgender woman. I don't think Duval is operating in a vacuum and I don't believe that the United States as a whole is as open-minded as many dagblog users claim to be. Duval sees deception in the sexual encounter that differs from other situations. He is labeled a homophobe. Psychiatric intervention is suggested because if he rejects a transgender woman, he will next attack woman who wear padded bras and wigs. 

        There was pushback on dagblog because Democrats supported the LGBTQ community on the issue of transgender bathroom rights. Some argued that support crossed into "identity politics". Now the argument is that not having sex with a transgender woman makes one a homophobe.

        nice, very eloquent comment, PP (still cosmpolitan, though! laugh)

        Sigh, you caught me. I still remember the dawning of the Cosmo Girl. Now it's turnabout unfair play.

        I second artappraiser's appraisal (both parts).


        Dayum. Busted.

        It's not often I write something that makes me feel like I should apologize, but it happens. The blog I wrote about the Lil Duval "Breakfast Club" interview was seen as victim blaming by some people. I apologize for my intentions and words not aligning. 

        The constant state of terror many members of the LBTQIA community live in isn't a trivial matter. This isn't an issue we should banalize. 

        I fully understand how my words could be interpreted. I can and will do better!

        As an ordained member of the clergy at a very progressive black church in the south I've come face to face with some of the worst behavior humans are capable of. The LGBTQIA community are some of the most fierce and sophisticated defenders of black humanity, yet there are large portions of their community who still shun them!



        Danny, I don't think anybody here is criticizing you for citing a post that others consider "victim blaming."  To me, the issues are you that you seem to be validating Duval's absurd fear that he will accidentally have sex with a transsexual woman and that you think it'd be rape were such a thing to happen.

        As for the status of gays in the black community, I'll withhold comment until I can prove to you that the white community is uniformly enlightened and forward thinking on the topic.

        Here's a good very short 2009 interview at The Guardian with a trans woman that I think makes clear the basic human decency issues you were trying to address.. With photo, in which one can see one would not necessarily know that this person used to be a man:

        I used to be a man

        I'd just like to point out two things to you without adding my own pecadilloes, as I am not someone who is trying to advise a community about the proper approach.

        She says at the start

        As a boy, my perception of transsexuals was of burly men in dresses; unfortunate people who didn't fit into society and were a source of ridicule. So when I realised that I wanted to be a girl, I was appalled and deeply ashamed.

        So seems to me when trans activists are all upset about things like Lil's statements, what it is about is trying to break the culture of ridiculing them. They feel the that the ridicule, that people feel uncomfortable with them, does a lot of damage, from making trans ashamed of themselves to encouraging nuts to feel free to perpetrate violence against them.

        On the other hand, edgy comics have always traded in ridicule, one of the things they do is play with the nervous boundaries of what is acceptable..

        And at the end she says

        There's no need to announce my past to everyone I meet, but it's not a secret. When people find out and are shocked, that's the greatest compliment they could pay me.

        My underlining. So it's not like one has to walk on eggshells about it all, either. And it's not like she is trying to hide something. She's actually done trying to hide something! I'd venture a guess that she didn't try to fool that fiance about anything.

        Yes, seems far more likely. People are just trying to live openly.

        And, again, we're talking about degrees here. Nobody who hasn't undergone extensive surgery and therapy to have their gender reassigned is likely fooling anybody about anything.  And once somebody has? Well, a born man who becomes a woman is a woman, not a woman*. Frankly, I don't know how they can afford it making 75 cents on the dollar, but that's another issue.


        * Used to be a man.

        OH SO "ME TOO!" on this Frankly, I don't know how they can afford it making 75 cents on the dollar, but that's another issue.

        Back in the old days before trans celebs with money started to go public, I would read stories and exactly this would drive me nuts, because it would be some minimum wage person and I would go: how the fuck did they come up with the $30K or whatever it was. Because I had things I very much want to get treated about myself, not plastic surgery, but things like eye problems, things that would improve my quality of life but weren't covered by insurance. And it was like; if only if only I had the money to pay a good doctor, I wanted to know: how do they do it?

        I figured Priscilla Queen of the Desert had everything there was to be known - a tranny/conversion therapy, a flamer, and a closet/semi-straight type, all on a bus across the outback. Okay, then there are lesbians in various state of existence or transition. It's been 23 years since that amazing film came out, not that I didn't have enough gay/lesbian friends & neighbors prior to that, but it was one of the main markers to me that all this had gone mainstream with both humor and understanding (and Versace).

        And like Bob who had a wicked attractive Vietnamese wife falls for Bernadette, I think you get the jixt of the puzzle - if it works, it works; if it doesn't, it doesn't. And no, sleeping with a transsexual unknown but aroused doesn't come close to "rape" -  it's more like Katy Perry's "kissed a girl" - well, you got some mixed gender feelings in there, congrats - you're like most of the human race to some partial degree. No violence, no threat = no rape.

        ToS warnings to oceankat & rmrd for personal attacks. The comments have been removed.

        I took the time to read every comment. I'm not surprised by some of the responses. For the record, I don't concern myself with who anyone is sleeping with. I'm not one of the culture warriors. I have very strong beliefs about the black family. I think the best situation for a child is a loving home with a mother and father who validates their humanity. I know this makes me an odd ball, but I believe in fathers taking care of their family.


        I know first hand that there are no more traditional gender roles. My wife painted and laid carpet in our home when we first bought it. I do laundry and cook when I'm home. I don't presuppose to know what's inside someone's heart. Sexual identity and gender identity are complicated. No one would voluntarily endure the hardships members of the LGBTQIA community face if there was a choice. I didn't set out to add to that burden.


        This is an emotionally charged issue. I don't apologize for treading into unfamiliar waters. Part of the problem with diversity in America is an unwillingnessto be uncomfortable. I see insecure heterosexuals willing to address issues of importance to the LGBTQIA community from the safety of cyber space, but not when their physical presence is needed. I've been assured by my white allies that they are actively working to destroy white supremacy from the the comfort of their suburban enclave. 


        I'm more than comfortable admitting my inability to understand all of the nuances that come with the specific challenges this segment of our population face. It's a chore just building the vocabulary necessary to have an intelligent conversation about gender and the role identity plays in our society. 


        If someone thinks I'm homophobic, so be it. I know me. I know how hard I've worked to address the societal norms and cultural conditioning that's part of living in a society predicated on a value system that creates artificial hierarchies.


        Thanks for engaging this post. 



        Thanks for the post. Duval made himself an easy target because he said that he would kill a transgender woman. If you read his comments, Duval was concerned about being lied to. The transgender woman had taken away his choice to have sex with what Duval considered to be a man, He felt that transgender sex made him gay. Duval did note that he was not going to kill anybody because he realized that it was a hypothetical situation, Unfortunately in follow up interviews Duval sticks by his statement about violence. Several of his standup comedy gigs have been canceled.

        There is strong condemnation of Duval as bloggers standup for transgender rights and safety. It is interesting that after the election, there was criticism of the Democratic Party for engaging in "identity politics". Transgender bathroom rights were among the reasons given for Democrats losing the white working class. Blacks were obviously going to be thrown under the bus. I think blacks will have to consider themselves on their own in upcoming elections, as connections to white allies is tenuous.

        Thanks again for treading into this territory.. 

        What's so tenuous? We're all supporting black voting rights, stopping police violence, anti-poverty, health care for poor, etc. A tranny gives Lil Duval a woody, maybe he should just accept it or get over it (as seems to not be about stimulating conversation and companionship). If he didn't notice befor or during, it's probably fine.

        The discussion about identity politics suggests everyone is not on board. Going back to the Bernie Sanders example, he never found the time since the election to show up in a black community. 

        If you read his comments, Duval was concerned about being lied to. The transgender woman had taken away his choice to have sex with what Duval considered to be a man, He felt that transgender sex made him gay.

        This does not put Duval in a better light.

        If somebody goes through a sex change procedure to become a woman, then they are a woman, not whatever gender Duval thinks they are.

        Foreplay is sex as the word is being used. Usually a large and significant part of a sexual encounter happens before intercourse. What if that 'somebody' has gone partway, through medical procedures, towards being  anatomically correct as a woman, but only springs that fact, so to speak, on the man well into the sexual event? Some would find it a fantasy come true but some others would go ballistic. Victims of the latter reaction might have avoided it with honesty earlier on.  This subject does not have a universal "right" answer. 

        Seems too unlikely to worry about, really.

        I like your honesty here, Lulu. But as an older woman who (yes!) finally wants to be honest about the whole game, I feel compelled to say this: do you realize that this attitude is what makes a lot of women shy about sex? That once they get naked and take off all the bells and whistles that they used to attract, you will reject the real them? When women hear men say such things, that is what they think.

        P.S. All guys would have to do to know this is to read women's magazines. That story has been a monthly feature in all of them one way or another for 50 years. I.E., But What Happens if I Take Off My Girdle/Spanx and He Sees How Fat I Really Am?

        For men, especially younger men, it is about proving your manhood. As Lulu notes finding unexpected body parts could lead to a physical response. It is not the proper response, but it could happen.When you posted about Duval finding unexpected body parts or subsequently learning about the XY partner, I immediately thought about Duval being concerned about latent homosexuality. The sexual encounter destroyed his concept of himself as a man. In the original interview, he said that the transgender woman made him Gay. She stole his heterosexualityu.

        The lady-boys in Patpong come to mind. I went to high school in south east asia, and there were always classmates coming back from Bangkok with stories of hilariously embarrassing first sexual experiences. Not sure anyone saw it as rape though. 

        Honestly though, when you say "Victims of the latter reaction might have avoided it with honesty earlier on", that sounds like its strating to inch towards victim blaming. If someone is going to "go ballistic" and get violent if they find someone is transgender or transitioning, then that is pretty much the definition of transphobic. Isn't it? 

        What is wrong with the following analogy: Imagine a racist woman who has sex with a man who unbeknownst to her at the time is mixed race. Should he have said something to her beforehand? Sure, it might be prudent if he suspects she is a rabid racist. And maybe if he suspects that he won't be too tempted anyway. But is it anywhere close to rape if he doesn't mention it? What if the girl would freak out if you tell her you're an atheist or jewish?

        People have all kinds of weird hangups. But somehow the only one where people feel justified in comparing not being appraised of f the relevant facts to rape is when we are talking about someone's gender history. 

        Sure, some people are grossed out by the idea of a trans partner, and I would probably be personally a bit uncomfortable if I'm being very honest about it. But that is because I have issues, in this case some transphobia, that I have to work on. (full disclosure: that particular scenario hasn't come up so far, but I will keep you posted). 

        Re: (full disclosure: that particular scenario hasn't come up so far, but I will keep you posted). 

        Oh, does that mean that Obey is "fancy free"? Because you write real hot! But I'd have to see what you look like, of course. laugh

        Hah! Just imagine an asian Kevin Bacon all footloose and fancy free bringing Kpop and Jpop to this repressed calvinist town

        You have no idea how much I get what you are saying, Obey. In my dotage I have found totally new excitement in turning on old set-in-their ways WASP's. It's a new thing for me, outside of my lifelong culture. Calvinist, oooh, sounds even more exciting.

        Not only that: I like Kevin Bacon a lot as a sexual persona, even though not as much as an actor (comes to mind that perhaps the Kevin Bacon thing is that he is attractive precisely because he's not such a good actor.)

        Calvinism IS pretty wild. Produced Rousseau the red cross and private banking. Very little dancing. ;)

        Makes me wanna teach one to dance in private where nobody else can see and no one else would ever know Yes this is me: devil

        Comes to mind: Where is Camille Paglia now that Duval needs some education on sexual personae? She could have him flabbergasted and questioning his whole life and world within seconds...

        And bringing up Camille inspires me to say that the show should have move on from tired old topics like sex change operations. Enquiring minds want to know: How does Duval feel about sex dolls and sex robots?

        Brings to mind "Lars and the Real Girl"

        Yes but it's not just in the movies, it truly is really happening in real life!

        I caught this video on CNN recently

        Inside a Sexbot Factory

        And then this NYPost feature from late June about older guys in Japan, with lots of photos, who are really in love with their sophisticated sex dolls

        My sex doll is so much better than my real wife

        There's plenty more if you just google. It's real, it's happening and you're talking under $50K, not millions. Which got me thinking that soon retirement homes will have something better than bingo to keep the residents occupied.

        Edit to add: it's kind of scary that this is getting popular in Japan, where the purported millennial fear of real human relationships started long ago because of their earlier adoption of cell phone and text culture over face to face. It's like extinction behavior!

        I spent two years in Japan in the 80's and was astonished at how hierachical and patriarchical it was. it was at least 20 years behind America in the fight for equal rights for women. I wonder how much of the sex doll obsession is tied to Japanese feminism and women's agitation for equal rights. If there had been sex dolls of the quality we see today in the 60's when American feminism began making substantial changes in the male female relationship it's possible that some American men unable to deal with it might have latched onto sex dolls as a substitute.

        With a loving sex doll by your side you can cruise the HOV lane smugly showing her how clever you are. There is more than sex to a satisfying relationship.

        LOL. Mainly because: HOV envy, I have to look into this now. People who haven't experienced traffic in the NYC tri-state area lately have no idea of the nightmare it has become the last few years...

        HOV, eh? Like the old "why is Marianne Faithful like Berlin? Many armies have been through both" ages ago. Wasn't that funny then either.

        comes to mind that, eventually, since the new sex dolls & robots are not exactly throwaway price, one could see them on Ebay after being sanitized and with hard drive swiped clean. Follows that users would have to be reminded to keep a backup of their own constantly changing sexual persona for the occasional crashes.

        Would we then see a fight against slut shaming of the robots that have changed hands too many times?

        eta: Seems likely that all the robots would collect data on the user to be sold to advertisers etc.

        lol again...we do indeed seem to be subjected to the ancient curse of may you live in interesting times

        good point, thanks, it could indeed be "retro" and a  kickback to change rather than futuristic

        True, I once bought a cupie doll on Sunset, and it had been *altered*, if you know what I mean. I felt so *violated*.

        see above, high tech is trying to fix that for you, where your doll will fulfill all your needs and desires, you will never ever feel violated again much less be violated. in any way shape or form, she will "get" you and affirm you and the changing you and.....

        after they get sex down they will start working on friendship, a tougher problem, more complex coding needed...

        after that an even tougher problem: the bots on internet forums trying to win elections won't act like trolls but will be nice to the real people and convince them that way. wink

        I kind of liked being violated, if I must admit. Maybe I have an "Eating Raoul" personality? I've always tried to deny it, but facts is facts.

        Paglia might agree with Duval that transgender sex is not sex with a woman 

        The cold biological truth is that sex changes are impossible. Every single cell of the human body remains coded with one's birth gender for life. Intersex ambiguities can occur, but they are developmental anomalies that represent a tiny proportion of all human births.

        In a democracy, everyone, no matter how nonconformist or eccentric, should be free from harassment and abuse. But at the same time, no one deserves special rights, protections, or privileges on the basis of their eccentricity. The categories "trans-man" and "trans-woman" are highly accurate and deserving of respect. But like Germaine Greer and Sheila Jeffreys, I reject state-sponsored coercion to call someone a "woman" or a "man" simply on the basis of his or her subjective feeling about it. We may well take the path of good will and defer to courtesy on such occasions, but it is our choice alone.


        Warning that Paglia is someone with whom you cannot do ala carte pick and chose, read more deeply and she will eventually force the entire menu on you, that's all I have to say on your quote.

        Please provide an example.

        No thanks. I don't do art history iconography for free, gives me a headache. It's up to you if you want to educate yourself, read the whole book, Sexual Personae. Not something from her picked by a conservative site to support their agenda.

        I don't find it enjoyable discussing such things with you. I read your comments and I do use them as worthwhile input but discussing them with you at length is not something I want to do. Because I find that the strawman argument thing always comes in, that's happened too many times before when I've tried to interact.

        Whoever is moderating this thread, feel free to delete this comment without any complaint from me.

        More from Paglia

        Okay, Shmoop devotee, you probably already know how I feel about political correctness, Democrats, civil rights, feminists, and academics. I just want to make sure you know where I stand on the transgender issue, because this one's a biggie, and I don't want anyone to assume I've got this whole "free to be you and me" attitude. I don't.

        So here's the deal: I know feminists don't like that I don't think men are pigs. Well, I don't want to throw everyone for a loop, but I'm actually against the idea of being transgender when it comes to the whole surgical thing. I'm a woman who loves women. I also love men, and I think that feminists could benefit from giving up the witch-hunt against men. I love all things gay-related. But that doesn't mean I'm for switching genders. (And I also have a beef against what I call "gay Stalinists"—that is, people who turn queerness into an ax to grind, thereby becoming as dogmatic as the homophobes.) 

        I was horrified—horrified—by Chastity Bono's sex change. I just don't think we should mutilate our bodies like that. Here's my take: "My point is that the transgender movement's focus on manipulating the physical, through surgery, is too often a way of avoiding introspection. We have an obligation as human beings to engage in self-examination—to seek self-understanding, apart from the social and the physical" (source). 

        I say great—get out there and explore your identity and sexuality—but don't go under the knife to do it.




        I actually find you humorous.

        My "strawmen" comments are a quote from Paglia and a post by Paglia.

        sure, so far. Have decided: not taking the bait any more, always end up being made a strawman when interacting with you.

        That is pathetic. You constantly attack me. I have been called a lair and stupid. If I respond in kind to those attacks, I get a TOS warning. You referred me to a book which in all likelihood doesn't support your advice to have Paglia educate Duval. Duval and Paglia appear to be on the same page.

        Edit to add:

        I saw Duval being afraid of being labeled a homosexual in one post describing his fear of unexpected body parts or a transgender encounter. You said that image was not what you intended. I stated the message I got from your words. We disagree, and I'm charged with being illiterate.

        2nd Edit to add:

        Regarding the question of is a man who doesn't want to have sex with a transgender woman a homophobe. It seems to me if the man was attracted to the woman and is turned off by the transgender aspect, and you say that a transgender woman is a woman, followed by the statement that he should just get over it if he did have sex with a transgender woman, you are coming very close to saying that only a homophobe would reject the sexual encounter.

        I'll bite. Who cares what Paglia thinks about somebody else's gender after a sex change?

        I did not bring up Paglia. I don't consider Paglia a shining light. Paglia was presented as a person who could educate Duval. I linked to a quote from Paglia that noted she believed that a transgender woman was a man. That post was ridiculed. I then posted an article by Paglia giving more detail about her true feelings about transgender issues. I come under attack for correcting the record on Paglia by the person who made the original post and now by an administrator. Have a good day.

        How Paglialithic.

        It seems as though we're butting up against limits in the English language.  The media now periodically reports on men becoming pregnant.  If being a woman physiologically means anything at all, it means having the ability or, failing that, the organs including a uterus, ovaries, etc., that permit one, to conceive and ultimately give birth.  Individuals who maintain that ability and moreover have the desire to and choose to become pregnant are not physiologically male and would appear, based on their choice, not to be cognitively or emotionally male either. 

        Meanings certainly do evolve over time but I'm not prepared to accept Humpty Dumpty's formulation that words "mean[] just what I choose [them] to mean—neither more nor less.”  So, I would argue that we need new words to describe people who, by virtue of their aggregate physical, emotional, and cognitive state, do not fit into any of the boxes that our current lexicon defines.

        Honestly though, when you say "Victims of the latter reaction might have avoided it with honesty earlier on", that sounds like its strating to inch towards victim blaming. If someone is going to "go ballistic" and get violent if they find someone is transgender or transitioning, then that is pretty much the definition of transphobic. Isn't it? 

        The most I would be "blaming" the victim for would be for unnecessarily putting themselves in a potentially bad situation. And yes, I would think that the term "transphobic would be appropriate to call someone who went ballistic but just because I believe that reacting violently in such a situation would be completely wrong it  wouldn't lead me to pretend that such people are not out there. 

        I know one story similar to your high school experience. A friend came back from Pattaya and told of meeting a girl in a bar who appeared just perfect for him. They talked a long time and he really liked her. He paid the house fee to take her out for the night and as they hailed a cab she broke to him "the rest of the story", as Paul Harvey might have said.. My friend said it was really disappointing and so he got in the cab alone and watched her head back inside. He said he thought she should have told him before he paid the big fee to the bar to release her for the evening. 



        Ah, lady boys - I danced with a dozen or so onstage, but *didn't count* cause I *didn't know* (at least not the first time). No harm, no foul...

        A transgender woman is not a woman in Duval's perspective. He would not voluntarily have sex with a transgender woman. In the discussion that led up to the outrage. Duval noted that he wasn't going to kill anybody. This is because he realized that he was never going to be in a situation where he would be in a sexual encounter with a transgender woman. Transgender women have enough common sense that they would not approach someone like Duval. Duval is no threat, but he refuses to apologize for suggesting he would resolve the hypothetical situation with murder. Duval is not very bright.

        Duval does not see a transgender woman as a woman. I doubt that he is alone in his point of view, This takes back to the question that led to meting attacked as being stupid or a liar, Duval sees transgendered women as men. Duval would not knowingly have sex with a transgender woman. Sex is part of the discussion, Duval refuses sex with transgender women. It is not an obsession. Duval responded to a question. Does his inability to see transgender women as women make him a homophobe?

        Duval fears that he will magically become Gay if he has sex with a transgender woman. Does that make Duval a homophobe? 

        Duval does not see a transgender woman as a woman.

        Not sure he gets a vote here.

        Duval is not alone. He is operating under a definition of manhood that views a transgender sexual encounter as an assault on his body. He says that the experience would cause psychological trauma. The idea that his manhood was being stolen came through in all his statements. He is just the tip of the iceberg.

        A professional hacker just provided me full access to my children's phone calls, text messages and their social media accounts which means i can now monitor their daily activities and also be able to know when they are being misled by anyone. I am happy about this because my kids mean the world to me and ever since the death of their mother, i promised  to always be there for them not only as a father but also as a mother so as to secure a bright future for them...You can contact the brain behind the hack at spystealth.org at gmail dot com for any problems you have that relates to hacking.

        This service is also useful if you're afraid you might accidentally have sex with a transgendered women. By having a hacker check out all your contacts beforehand you avoid the legal hassles of explaining to the police why you had to kill her afterwards.


        I was gonna delete it, but you two have already ridiculed it into harmlessness.

        You can delete it. I kinda expected you to. I'm not one that thinks everything I write, down to the most off hand quip, needs to be saved for posterity.

        Oh great, let's all start scaramooching our comment histories just in case we get drafted for a 10 minute stint as WH comms director. 

        Woo hoo. You get to be the WH communication director! You get to be the WH communication director! Everybody gets to be the White House communication director!


        Oprah's right that joy is all there is, though I'd quibble with how she instigates it.

        I also like the army of pink-sweatered "elves."

        Obey, went to look to see if your very clever new usage had popped up in some online dictionary yet, instead I found this, that he has a most appropriate family name for the job, it's almost incredible

        Lol! How did I not know that! That is hilarious. Whoever is coding this particular simulation world is clearly on some pretty good drugs. 

        It's an honor to have you compliment our ridicule.

        "Ask a Hacker" - the new Dear Abby

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