MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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Amid the Kale and Corn, Fears of White Supremacy at the Farmers’ Market
By artappraiser on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 2:51pm |By Jack Healy @ NYTimes.com, Aug. 18
BLOOMINGTON, Ind. — [....]
It has been a summer of fear, protest and tension in this crunchy college town ever since the popular Saturday morning farmers’ market was jolted by allegations that a husband and wife who had been longtime sellers of organic tomatoes and kale were also white nationalists.
The accusations exploded into public view after activists and online sleuths used federal court records and the leaked archives of a far-right message board to uncover a digital trail they say connects the couple who own Schooner Creek Farm to an organization that promotes white nationalism and “white American identity." [....]
URL:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/18/us/indiana-farmers-market-white-supremacy.html
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Comments
Struck me from the article, I think this lady has pegged it, here is the real damage he's done: irrational fear and loathing of "the other", scary monsters everywhere:
said the uproar has turned
the market into a “Trump tweet.”
Credit: Mark Felix
for The New York Times
Reminds me of this parody of BBQ Becky over @ TheRoot.com
Back to the NYTimes article. The last line here is just absurd, even if they are hardcore white supremacists, they come there to sell their vegetables like everyone else for chrissake:
Does anyone else see the equivalance I see here to this:
The problem is that we have as a Tweeter-in-Chief a man who was mentored by Roy Cohn, after all.
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 3:15pm
I think you're making a false equivalency here. The farm owners were simply selling produce in a legally correct manner. What ever posts might have been uncovered or how ever racist they might have been their business at the market more than complied with all legal requirements.
BBQ Becky was reporting illegal activity. One may hold the opinion it was trivial illegal activity that didn't merit a report to the police but never the less it was illegal activity. Or one might claim that Becky only reported the illegal activity because the perpetrators were black and wouldn't have called the police on whites. But still at the foundation it was illegal. One of the biggest problems I have as caretaker of this ghost town tourist site is people starting fires on what we call the beach. It is clearly stated that this is against the rules. This is private not public space so the rules are private not public rules that regulate the use of the commons. Most of the people who visit Ruby and break the rules have the opinion that the rules are stupid, silly, or trivial so it doesn't matter that they disregard them. But these are important rules for the owners and for me as I agree with the rules the owners hired me to enforce. I also tend to support rules like these regulating the use of the commons and would have been upset to see people breaking them whether those people are black or white.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 4:38pm
For the record, the police dispatcher thought BBQ Becky was nuts
https://www.newsweek.com/bbq-becky-white-woman-who-called-cops-black-bbq-911-audio-released-im-really-1103057
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 5:20pm
Most people think that. And that's why most public spaces are shit holes. The regulations to protect the commons are regularly flouted and no government officials enforce them. Why do you think there are regulations designating certain areas for BBQ and other areas not? Why do you think the owners have the same rules here? Are the rules there just because the government and the owners of this tourist site want to fuck with people? The only difference is in this private space someone is paid to enforce the rules. I am paid to protect areas where tourists gather and I can see how quickly the area can be degraded if rules are disregarded. If you were tasked to protect the quality of the commons you'd quickly understand why rules allowing BBQ in only certain areas are necessary and you would either enforce them or allow the commons to be destroyed. But there is no funding to protect the commons and the police are over whelmed with more serious crime to do it. Of course the police think it's "nuts" to think anyone should care about the quality of the commons when they're dealing with rape, theft and murder. And so public spaces become shit holes.
It is nuts to go into any public space and try to do any thing to protect it. Public spaces are shit holes, they will always be shit holes, rules to protect them will never be enforced because there is no funds to do it. It's nuts to think that will change.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 6:13pm
What evidence do you have that the site is a shithole?
There was no forest fire because of the BBQ. No conflagration despite the fact that it took two hours for police to respond. The question becomes the risk of damage because of the BBQ versus the risk of police interacting with police. We have seen harm befall black people when police arrive. Fortunately, some jurisdictions are thinking about crafting laws to make calling police for Living While Black more difficult.
https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-living-while-black-police-20190527-story.html
Here is just a partial list of police calls for Living While Black
https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/20/us/living-while-black-police-calls-trnd/index.html
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 6:13pm
There are regulations in that park to protect the commons. Do you think those regulations should be obeyed or ignored? Can you list the laws that you think should be ignored?
It has little or nothing to do with the chance of fires spreading. Rules regulating BBQ are in place because people dump the left over coals and ashes on the ground when they leave. The coals are often hot enough to burn children and dogs. This creates a dangerous situation for those who come a few hours after. It doesn't take long for the ground to be covered by a layer of charcoal. That is aesthetically unpleasing to some people. Most BBQ use fatty meat. The melted fat drips on to the charcoal and ash and much of it isn't burned. The fat saturated charcoal and ash that is dumped on the ground attracts ants, flies, and other insects. It also attracts mice and rats. This is a health hazard. In some areas it also attracts wild animals. Wild animals will eat charcoal if it's saturated with fat. Even herbivores will eat animal fat. Wild animals often shit where they eat.
Most people in urban areas are so separated from nature they don't realize how degraded the park is. They go into an area strewn with fat saturated charcoal and don't even notice it. The massive quantities of rat feces and other animal feces is mostly invisible to their eyes. They think dealing with ants and insects is a normal part of the experience never realizing it's mostly the result of the filth in the area. When a certain number of children get sick from rolling around in the fly spread disease ridden charcoal and the rat feces they don't associate it with the BBQ in the park. Kids get sick all the time.
But government officials who study these things know what's happening. So they create regulations to protect the quality of the commons. And people flout the regulations and there is no funding to enforce them. I don't specifically know that particular park is a shit hole. I've never been there. But I know what happens when these basic health regulations are ignored. The park becomes a shit hole.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 7:22pm
Were charges filed against the people barbecuing? If the regulations were in place, why no charges? Even a bystander criticized BBQ Becky for harassing the black people. Do you believe that all government regulations are rational?
Edit to add:
I can think of many reasons to protest unjust laws Read a United States history book.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 7:33pm
No charges were filed. They never are. Nothing is ever done to protect the quality of the commons. The regulations are never enforced. These are common sense and necessary regulations that people don't understand. " If the regulations were in place" If you had seriously read the story you would know the regulations were in place and the people were breaking them. But you only care that you can use this story to complain about racism
I had a friend who did volunteer work in a poor community in Mexico. She was astonished that people would walk a few dozen yards from their dwelling and shit on the ground. She couldn't understand why they didn't dig an outhouse. Are you shocked? Do you understand the health hazard of uncovered shit? Well they didn't. You don't understand the health hazard of dumping fat saturated charcoal on the ground. Even when it's clearly and rationally explained to you. My explanation was so clear that to any thinking person it was obvious. Some people here are probably wondering why they didn't see it them selves. You want to see racism so you will never consider there might be rational reasons for these regulations. Thinking doesn't support your agenda. Perhaps you can explain exactly why almost all cities have these regulations and why it is an injustice to regulate BBQ in common spaces.
I enforce these rules on BBQ all the time at this tourist site. Mostly for white people, occasionally for Hispanics. I enforce them because they are common sense rules. I don't do it because I hate wetbacks. It's possible that Becky hates blacks. It's also possible she knew the reasons behind the regulations. Now if I went to that park I wouldn't call the police on either the whites or the blacks. Because it's nuts to think any thing can ever be done to enforce the rules that protect the quality of the commons and keep a public park from turning into a shit hole.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 8:14pm
I’m glad that you wouldn’t call police. Police can exacerbate an otherwise peaceful endeavor. You are too stupid to realize that police maim and kill black people and are almost never prosecuted despite outward lies captured on camera. But hey, who cares if black people are maimed or killed, they should have just just followed the rules. Turns out that no one follows the rules.
https://heavy.com/news/2018/05/jennifer-schulte-bbq-becky/
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 8:49pm
One should be aware of that but some how you use that excuse to justify black people flaunting the law with impunity. What other health laws are black people allowed to ignore if they do it peacefully? Public defecation?
by ocean-kat on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 8:56pm
Your stupidity hurts.
There was a BBQing While Black event at Merritt Lake this year. It drew a big crowd. The area does not appear to have devolved into a shithole.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/07/21/oaklands-second-bbqing-while-black-party-draws-big-crowds/
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 9:04pm
But it has. These people are rallying against racism by creating a health hazard. Any study done in the area will show increased rodent population and increased disease especially in children playing in that park. Rats mostly come out at night, germs are microscopic, disease vectors mostly can't be seem, and the prevalence of disease in an area is discovered by a statistical analysis. They may not be apparent with a casual glance but thinking people look beyond appearance to understand the world. Sometimes you do that to but mostly your agenda gets in the way of thoughtful analysis.
If the people in that community were educated on the issue they might say they believe Becky was a racist and shouldn't have called the police but that the health concerns from people dumping used charcoal on the ground creates a dangerous situation and should be dealt with. But too many people are ignorant and don't have the time for study or research. You are worse in that in this thread you now have the information you need to make an informed choice. But your agenda gets in the way of rational thought.
7 Serious Illnesses Carried by Rats and Mice
by ocean-kat on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 10:07pm
CUT THE CRAP
BBQ Becky seems to have issues. The dispatcher asked about mental illness. The police consider all hold based on mental instability. A bystander said BBQ Becky was harassing the black people. Becky collapse s when the police arrive and cries crocodile tears.
No charges for the people barbecuing. Park officials say that this was not a police matter. One of the people barbecuing was put on a park board. They hold annual barbecues marking the event. Everyone is happy, except you. You big mad. Seems like a good outcome to me.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 10:13pm
Sometimes public officials decide to ignore problems because the expense and difficulty is to great to deal with them. That doesn't mean they aren't problems. I'm confident anyone reading this thread who didn't bother thinking it through now realizes the reason charcoal grills are regulated in almost all public parks in several countries. If their rational thought processes aren't clouded by a partisan agenda. I'm confident thinking people see it because it's obvious and uncomplicated. The only reason you can't is it interferes with your agenda. You will always choose to push your agenda over thoughtful rational analysis.
Once again why do you think most public parks regulate the use of charcoal grills? In some cities these regulations are strictly enforced. Why are regulations on the use of charcoal grills unjust laws?
by ocean-kat on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 10:46pm
um, this comment doesn't exactly support your other point that police take people like "Becky" seriously and that is the reason there is danger inherent for blacks. just sayin'
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 9:45pm
Sigh
You can’t be certain which police officer will show up. It could be someone like the barrel roll guy who body slammed a teenage girl wearing a bathing suit. The offense, she had been swimming in a pool.
You can’t be this dense.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 10:17pm
I did not intend an equivalence with the real "Becky BBQ" incident. I was referring to the parody of it on The Root. I should have chosen better, some truly unquestionably ridiculous incident of someone calling police for someone living while black. Which I think would be quite equivalent to those freaking out at this farmer's market.
One never knows, in the old days it could have been be Ed Gein selling you those tomatoes with a smile.
by artappraiser on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 7:54pm
Well, as long as he's not selling sausage.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 08/18/2019 - 8:03pm
I'm vegetarian, but I'll keep your BBQ and long pork advisements in mind - not a big rodent fan either, and me mum gets raccoons - cute in small quantities, but...
I remember finding this beautiful camping spot by some pond, truly stellar, thinking how lucky I was., maybe in the Ozarks, don't quite remember. About dusk some white trash family showed up in a camper, hopped out, proceeded to bathe in it, soap and wrappers and containers everywhere. Left after half an hour or so. Came back in the morning too. Wasn't quite so attractive after that. But they seemed to have fun in their enthisiastic yokel in-bred kind of way. Don't recall if there was a sign with rules - I'm sure that woulda helped.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 1:38am
BTW, these rules of order and perceived appropriate public manners are often the flash points between incoming minorities who may not respect those rules the way the established majority expects - whether blacks, Hispanics, gypsies, Muslims, etc. How people act on the bus/metro, in the market, etc., how loud they are, whether they laugh different,...
Yesterday one of these minorities - white, btw - overreacted to how a customer did her groceries on the conveyor belt, and yelled at the customer rather inappropriately for 5 mins (her family was waiting, she just rolled her eyes). Someone couldve called security, but it wouldnt help solve different worldviews in three secs. In this case she was an emplyee - say the equiv of a Korean or Arabic shop owner like one who shot a customer yesterday, tho this was just an employee in a larger chain - often the minorities with different views and behavior are in position of customers. I remember a smartass store security guy threatening to call police on me because I put some salsa in the wrong place when I saw the cashier line way too long.
I live in a building in an area that's getting more and more AirBnBs, along with a usual amt of homeless. Last week someone got in and shit on the stairs. The fault of an AirBnB'er? Hard to tell. Ubers dont pick up fares at taxi stands - they pick ppl up in the middle of the street, blocking off traffic. Lime electric scooters now go in areas where my bike was banned a year ago, ride on sidewalks and streets, hurtling towards pedestrians crossing the street and damn tough for drivers to see at 30km/hr. But quite fun, til someone falls or gets hit. Who pays in the end for all this rule breaking, who accepts the increased real costs of liability, the steady degradation of some kinds of life? There's a small family business of 40-50 years that lost a stand it'd been using all this time - perhaps not appropriately, but they hired people (20?), paid taxes, were a convenient car service in the center of town vs the rest that move to 20 mins away - a pain with a damaged car. But the new freeloaders who don't pay taxes or hire more than a few min wage kidakids will get their profit and conveniences, scooters will be left lying on the sidewalk, the commons will be treated as more of a hipster shithole for the convenience of people who don't live here, and locals will just be complaining BBQ Beckys afraid of progress.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 2:09am
yeah, some of these things are just cultural differences. I lived with a Jewish women for a few years, immigrant from Israel. She told me she always had to watch herself in public places in America especially if she was with other Israelis. She always felt like she was the loudest person in the airport and everyone was annoyed with her. But sometimes there are real public health issues to be concerned about.
It's possible Becky was just a racist looking for some reason to fuck with a black person. But it may be she recently moved there from a liberal middle class area with environmentally conscious people. There might have been a low crime rate and the cops had time to enforce park rules. She could have been shocked to see the filth in this park and knew it was because of the rule breaking. These rules are created by civil servants and public health officials with college degrees, masters, and sometimes even doctorates who have studied the subject before getting hired. The most the elected politician might do is take their recommendations and pass them into law.
We all have different areas of interest. I used to go to the museums with a friend who studied art. She would point to a painting and say do you see what the artist did here. Well I didn't but now that you pointed it out I do. Some of us have the study and experience with the natural world and we see more too. If you've spent a lot of time in nature from wilderness areas, national forests, state forests, state parks, and local city parks you can see the differences. the local urban dwellers might not have the experience to see it but I could walk through that park, point to something, tell you what it is, when it happened, what else in the area happened because of it, and what's going to happen in the future. And it's often not a good story.
I'm annoyed by the immediate jump to accusations of racism when Becky was right. The regulations are there for good reasons and should be enforced. She may have handled it the wrong way and she may be a racist. But the regulations are good, right, reasonable, and in place for very real public health reasons.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 3:42am
Yeah, the story on calling the police on black AirBNB guests is more complex than given -
we rely on people, normal citizens, in neighborhoods to be on the watch for things out of order. The police can't be everywhere by any means, and advanced recognition video surveillance is a highly intrusive solution as we see in China.
AirBNB is a major disruptor of that informal home/neighbors system - a house that didn't see any daytime traffic for 20 years now has people moving about at 10am or 2pm (good times for burglaries, especially in the burbs) or 2am (a good time for drunken disorder).
That we notice people unlike ourselves makes the issue worse, the transition more difficult. I'm pretty sure a white couple walking in a black or Hispanic neighborhood will bring notice as well - not that minorities will be as likely to call the police due to historic poor results of that move. But the leap to "racism" is a bit too quick - we notice differences, things out of place, which has often been a plus for survival - but not always.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 4:14am
The core issue is that you don’t get to de ide what is racist and what is not. The people on the receiving end make the determination. This is why tribes are important. BBQ Becky was obviously one example of white people calling police on people Living While Black. The tribe responded and communities are developing strategies to deal with the problem. Some are considering crafting legislation. These episodes are happening all over the country. You feel that racism is brought up too frequently. People on the receiving end have a different opinion. The Tribe acts to protect their rights while you remain on the sidelines.
AA dismisses concerns about encounters with police. The Tribe acts to protest police abuse. The Tribe also works to elect new DAs who address their concerns about police abuse. Given a choice between waiting for outsiders to consider a problem worthy of action, the tribe acts swiftly. The Tribe is a better option than waiting for a dismissive public to consider a problem worthy of attention.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 2:49pm
Actually who decides what's racist is a much more complex arrangement than that, but you know all this.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 3:51pm
At any rate the tribe influenced the Governor of California to sign a bill placing restrictions on when law enforcement can use deadly force.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/newsom-california-police-use-force_n_5d265843e4b0cfb596002431
Again, this one of the benefits of having tribes as opposed to bystanders.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 4:21pm
I think you're misunderstanding rmrd's post. The Tribe™ is an organization founded by rmrd. I haven't seen a membership list but one assumes that The Tribe™ has many members. The Tribe™ has an ambitious set of goals as laid out in their mission statement printed here. Mainly The Tribe™ makes pronouncements declaring certain actions racist. The Tribe™ feels it's the duty of the people fall in line. At the moment though The Tribe™ is mainly focused on commenting on dagblog. The Tribe™ is experiencing some small difficulties in that the people aren't falling in line as is their duty to The Tribe™. The Tribe™ feels that small problem will be solved shortly and then The Tribe™ will make it's pronouncements on a national level and all will be right with the world.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 4:48pm
Diversion. Given the progress made by identity politics activists, why would they trade it for the nonsense that you propose?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 4:59pm
Thank you for the best analysis yet on Dagblog to date! Keeps me coming back!
I was waiting on what The Tribe™ had ruled on Jay-Z, Colin, and the NFL but it's been crickets so far, but then I got an inkling of what the problem might be: I saw The Tribe™ gave a temporary mulligan to Loretta Ross because she self-described as both having black skin and having been a long-time warrior for social justice. So it must be a difficult decision about ex-communication or not for Jay-Z, because though a sell out, he has darker skin than Colin, so it's a kind of a wash?
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 5:13pm
Again the tribe offers better solutions compared to your pity olympics.
Had you ever heard of Loretta Ross?
The Tribe has always had internal debates
Booker T Washington and WEB DuBois
Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X
Reverend Al Sharpton and Black Lives Matter.
Tribal Councils.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 5:23pm
I'm confused - I thought The Tribe were the Cleveland Indians.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 5:40pm
you so naughty
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 5:46pm
Identity politics has resulted in measurable changes. It got people to the polls ousting DAs and other politicians. It has created movements to challenge police abuse and voter suppression. What has the crap you offer accomplished? It seems to me your side boils down to do what the white folks say.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 5:48pm
"my side"? is that like "you peeple"?
"crap i offer" - not even sure what I "offer" aside from opinions & links to facts/opinion
"do what the white folks say" - well, we did invent the atom bomb & still have the most - might pay to follow that advice
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 6:54pm
Correct, you finally figured it out, that you evil white male patriarchs are supposed to sit down and shuddup now and listen. It's the The Tribe™'s turn. BTW, seems like that's the main pitch, supposed to get you to vote for The Tribe™. Clever, eh?
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 10:43pm
You realize that this is insanity that comes across as a threat
Also, like NASA, black scientists worked on the Manhattan Project.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 1:44am
AA dismisses concerns about encounters with police
I did not and anyone with reading comprehension can see that. I merely pointed out that your link was quite the ammunition for those who do so.
by artappraiser on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 5:16pm
Your comprehension is sorely lacking, but at any rate politicians like Gavin Newsom are working to curtail police abuse via legislation. This would not be needed if there was not a persistent risk of police abuse. The fact that the officer in the BBQ Becky situation did not kill the family does not mean the situation could not have been different with another officer on the scene.
Looks like NYP finally fired the officer who killed Eric Garner
We are still wait to hear more info on the Dallas officer who killed a black man for being in his own apartment.
You are really dense.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 08/19/2019 - 5:29pm
I seems this competition for road side and sidewalk space is a growing problem.
Curbing roadside chaos
by ocean-kat on Fri, 08/23/2019 - 4:54pm
Americans Are More Worried About White Nationalism After El Paso
But partisans remain far apart.
@ FiveThirtyEight.com, Aug. 16
includes this graph:
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/20/2019 - 2:00pm
This is an echo chamber. AA uses the term pity olympics for black protests and thinks that black people weren’t killed by the police officer in the BBQ Becky case could be used to argue that police abuse didn’t exist. She makes zero sense. Police killings are the sixth leading cause of death in young black men.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/police-killings-are-sixth-leading-ca...
How could any rational brain think that a wingnut would make such an argument? Only a person who uses the term pity olympics could have neural synapses fire in a manner to conceive of such an argument. Outside of this echo chamber, pity olympics would get AA kicked out of the room.
A black journalist detailed his fear after being stopped by police in Arizona in the NYT.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/20/opinion/eric-garner-pantaleo.html
I don’t think that a person who uses pity olympics repeated created the theoretical wingnut excuse out of thin air. I think part of you finds it rational.
We next come to ocean-kat who strongly objects to the solution in the BBQ Becky Case. After noting the BBQ wasn’t a police matter, he opines:
He goes totally insane. Fortunately, ocean-kat only has authority over a ghost town. Blacks are free from his authority everywhere else in the United States.
Why would anyone want pity olympics AA and ocean-kat to have any real authority?
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 1:55am
Here's something to lighten up with, have some hope, everything is not Armageddon, everyone in a tribe is not the same. (When was the last time you went outside and looked around? If you did, hope yo didn't get on a soap box and start preaching and fearmongering at bystanders. Apologies only if you're house bound.)
You're the only echo chamber here, a one-man echo chamber, same stuff over and over and over and over and over. We are not your enemy, and we've given so many mulligans. PLEASE QUIT THE STRAW MAN STUFF When will you stop preaching at us and just talk? When will you show interest in anything else except one topic? If you have some desire to debate enemies, please go where there are some or wait until Peter Unverified posts again. Please just cut it out, cut out the game you're playing and be real with us.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 2:19am
AA, you have no problem using the term pity olympics. That is arrogant and dismissive. Thankfully, you have no control over my life. Your response to the BBQ Becky episode was to create a technique that a wingnut could use to deny that police abuse existed. Now you link to break dancing police officers. You are blind to the fact that police are the sixth leading cause of death in young black men. What is wrong with you?
Activists are getting results. The Governor of California signed legislation changing criteria for police use of force. Organizations are getting Progressive district attorneys elected. You sit on the sidelines. You are irrelevant.
You have not done a deep intellectual dive on Roxane Gay. You have not read either.of Ibram Kendi’s books. You skim and cherry pick from articles. You have no clue that Loretta Ross works on reproductive justice. You praise an article about her because you agree with her argument against call out culture. I disagree with her, but await her book to read how she justifies her stance. I see elections that have been won specifically because racism was called out. You will not read her book.
You are in an echo chamber. I have pointed out that their are differences of opinion within tribes. I pointed to Washington and DuBois, King and Malcolm, Sharpton and BLM. Heck, there was even Obama and Cornel West. I repeated pointed this out, and it repeated does not sink in because you only hear the echoes.
People in the real world are taking action while you just repeat what you already believe.
You list Camille Paglia as an icon, yet you knew nothing on Paglia’s stance on transgenders.
You praise Roxane Gay. Yet you have no understanding of her work. Here is Gay responding on Twitter to a Queer Eye star who praised Sean Spicer. Spicer is slated to appear on Dancing With The Stars.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/michaelblackmon/karamo-brown-sean-s...
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 10:59am
I wonder why you come here. I come here to discuss politics. I read the news and I know much more about what's happening in the world than my friends. I can't talk about it with them so I come here to have nuanced discussion with other people who also read as much news as I do. I also like Game of Thrones but I'm not much interested in discussing the foreign relations of the fictional countries of Westeros. I like to talk about the reality I live in.
This isn't a formal debate for me. No one is keeping score. There's no winner and no reward for winning. I'm not looking for the gotcha moment to score points. I don't care about winning. I attempt to make a good faith argument against the best of your arguments. I don't look for your weakest arguments or try to distort your arguments to produce a win.
It seems to me you come here to rail against racism and to win and you don't care how you do it. You ignore the strongest arguments other's make here. You reinterpret their arguments to create a false story line, a strawman argument, that you can more easily defeat in argument.
The simple fact is that this park, and most parks in several countries, have regulations restricting charcoal grills to certain areas. You need to address why you think by far the vast majority of parks have these regulations. Frankly I don't think you know and you're unwilling to even consider my explanations because it disputes the racist accusation you want to spread. But honest dialog requires you to address that question that I've asked several times.
You pointed out that protesting unjust laws is a valuable American tradition. But you have not explained why you think regulation of charcoal grills is an unjust law. We all agree that some laws are unjust but when you claim a law is unjust you need to make the case why and how they are unjust.
You've made the point that the laws were not enforced. That doesn't prove the law is wrong. I often go to Rainbow Gatherings. Quite often the sanitation systems set up at the gathering are overwhelmed by the number of people. No citations are issued. No arrests are made. Does that mean the health regulations in National Forests are unjust or unnecessary? No, what it means is that there are so many people, some thousands, that the Forest personnel decides that it's impossible or counter productive to enforce the law in this particular situation.
That appears to be what's happening in this park. The sheer numbers of people disobeying the law make it difficult or impossible to enforce the law. That doesn't mean the law is wrong. I think I've made a convincing case why the regulations restricting charcoal grills in common areas are good and rational public health regulations. You have not even attempted to dispute those arguments.
There is a sort of classism relevant here. These regulations exist in most public parks. In upscale white neighborhoods restrictions on use of charcoal grills are more likely to be enforced. Either the police enforce them or there are park personnel that enforce them. In poor neighborhoods, either black or white, the police are often to overwhelmed by more serious crime to enforce park regulations. There is no funds to hire park personnel to enforce the regulations. If you truly understood the story you would be railing against the classism that protects the quality of the commons in upscale white areas and allows public parks to be degraded in poor black neighborhoods.
But you're not here to have a serious nuanced discussion of any issue. You're here to rail against racism. And when you do it your goal is to win the debate by any means. It's not interesting or fun for the people you're dialoging with.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 3:08pm
I am here to have a serious discussion. You launch personal attacks. I am not scoring points, I’m offering a different opinion.You attack my education and intelligence. You use profanity and then whine that I am the problem. In the BBQ Becky case, there are legitimate issues of police being called on black people for minor issues. You connected that discussion to public deflation. I make a benign statement. You make a personal attack.
I addressed your issue about the barbecue by noting that the park services did not consider the matter a police issue. The park service put one of the people involved in the barbecue on one of the park’s board. The directors of the park disagree with you. You cannot accept their decision. The park allows an annual event to mark the occasion. You are the one missing the point.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 3:28pm
I addressed your issue about the barbecue by noting that the park services did not consider the matter a police issue.
These regulations exist in most public parks. In upscale white neighborhoods restrictions on use of charcoal grills are more likely to be enforced. Either the police enforce them or there are park personnel that enforce them. In poor neighborhoods, either black or white, the police are often to overwhelmed by more serious crime to enforce park regulations. There is no funds to hire park personnel to enforce the regulations
The park service put one of the people involved in the barbecue on one of the park’s board.
Some times politicians make political decisions to defuse tensions. In this case the sheer numbers of people disobeying the law make it difficult or impossible to enforce the law. That doesn't mean the law is wrong. I think I've made a convincing case why the regulations restricting charcoal grills in common areas are good and rational public health regulations. You have not even attempted to dispute those arguments.
The simple fact is that this park, and most parks in several countries, have regulations restricting charcoal grills to certain areas. You need to address why you think by far the vast majority of parks have these regulations. Frankly I don't think you know and you're unwilling to even consider my explanations because it disputes the racism accusation you want to spread. But honest dialog requires you to address that question that I've asked several times.
You pointed out that protesting unjust laws is a valuable American tradition. But you have not explained why you think regulation of charcoal grills is an unjust law. We all agree that some laws are unjust but when you claim a law is unjust you need to make the case why and how they are unjust.
You are the one missing the point.
For you the only point is racism and accusations of racism. For me the issue is about more than racism. It's also about the Tragedy of the Commons and the degradation of public parks. It's a more complex story that requires a more nuanced discussion. It's always and only about racism for you.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 4:53pm
I'd like to just add my own perspective to what you said on I wonder why you come here.
On much bigger websites like TPMCafe was, or the one I was at before that, I would never rail or interfere with other groups of people who liked focusing on one thing or constantly doing vigorous nasty politic debate on things of no interest to me. It was live and let live, the more type of groups the merrier. though I also always reserved the ability to criticize elsewhere in another section or my own post, what they were doing ad not my cup of tea. Just the opposite with the first website, I was asked to help with meta issues, to grow the sections to get different audiences. Heck Israel Palestine is one where there are people who aren't interested in anything else but talking about that and that only, and fighting nasty too.
The problem here is not just that rmrd takes every other topic, on a thread someone else started, and hijacks it to his favorite memes. That would be one aggravating thing I could deal with.
The extra aggravation is what takes it over the top.
He wants to preach about his stuff, but if he makes his own posts on it, no one shows any interest in interaction.
So he comes to other threads and hijacks them. Then one thinks one is doing a favor by engaging in his hijacking instead of ignoring it. BUT NOOOO that's not good enough for him. He doesn't want nuance interaction that complicates the dialectic, he wants enemies to argue with. So since they are not here, he makes us into strawmen to represent the people he'd like to yell at, WHO ARE NOT HERE.
I refuse to go that far, I am real tired of serving as a stand-in for rmrd's perceived enemies over and over and over for several years.. It's one bridge too far. It's an insult, it's like he's saying: I don't care what you think, not interested in understanding what you think, I am going to make you into the enemy I wish was here. He could at least do that on his own threads. But he doesn't, because the imagined adversaries are not here to respond. He has to come over on other thread and make us into strawmen. The mystery is: why not debate the real McCoy?
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 3:53pm
Yes, and some how some people here don't see it. That's why I've persisted in this trivial discussion on the regulation of charcoal grills in public parks. By having such a discussion on such a simple subject others might see the game rmrd is playing. Otherwise I would have made my point and dropped out long ago leaving him to have the last word he almost always demands as proof to him that he won the debate.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 4:24pm
ocean-kat you are having an echo chamber discussion with AA. A white woman who witnessed and videotaped the exchange said BBQ Becky was harassing the black family for over 90 minutes. The situation is resolved. Their is no evidence of damage to the park. There hasn’t been any public defecation. The park service allows an annual barbecue at the spot. The park service apparently doesn’t think the rule is that important. Your argument is that your assessment of the situation is better than that of the local authorities.
Do you have direct data on the rates of following barbecue rules in parks in wealthier neighborhoods versus poor neighborhoods, or did you just make up that observation? If there is a difference in conditions of the parks, can it be explained by maintenance of the facility by the local park services?
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 4:56pm
Their is no evidence of damage to the park.
Rats mostly come out at night, germs are microscopic, disease vectors mostly can't be seem, and the prevalence of disease in an area is discovered by a statistical analysis. They may not be apparent with a casual glance but thinking people look beyond appearance to understand the world. Sometimes you do that to but mostly your agenda gets in the way of thoughtful analysis.
" Between 1589–92,[1] the Italian scientist Galileo Galilei (then professor of mathematics at the University of Pisa) is said to have dropped two spheres of different masses from the Leaning Tower of Pisa to demonstrate that their time of descent was independent of their mass" No one does that experiment anymore because the experiment has been done so often the result has been undisputedly proven. No one tests whether mice and rats carry disease. The studies have been done so often we know. No one tests whether increasing the rodent population increases disease. No one tests whether and increase in the food supply increases the rodent population. No one does those studies anymore because the the results are know. Any study done in the area will show increased rodent population and increased disease especially in children playing in that park. No one pays to collect that evidence because the studies have been done so often we already know.
The park service allows an annual barbecue at the spot.
Some times politicians make political decisions to defuse tensions. In this case the sheer numbers of people disobeying the law make it difficult or impossible to enforce the law. That doesn't mean the law is wrong. I think I've made a convincing case why the regulations restricting charcoal grills in common areas are good and rational public health regulations. You have not even attempted to dispute those arguments.
The park service apparently doesn’t think the rule is that important.
There is no doubt the public health officials explained to the politicians decades ago why the regulations restricting charcoal grills were important. That's why the regulations were in effect. You will see signs in most parks clearly stating the regulations concerning charcoal grills. Those signs aren't cheap. Politicians passed budgets that allocated money to buy those signs based on public health officials recommendations. I'm sure the public health officials hired now explained to the politicians once again why the regulations were important. The politicians today decided the issue was too wrought with political difficulties to take the health officials recommendations.
The simple fact is that this park, and most parks in several countries, have regulations restricting charcoal grills to certain areas. You need to address why you think by far the vast majority of parks have these regulations. Frankly I don't think you know and you're unwilling to even consider my explanations because it disputes the racism accusation you want to spread. But honest dialog requires you to address that question that I've asked several times.
You pointed out that protesting unjust laws is a valuable American tradition. But you have not explained why you think regulation of charcoal grills is an unjust law. We all agree that some laws are unjust but when you claim a law is unjust you need to make the case why and how they are unjust.
This is clearly not an echo chamber discussion as the bulk of the discussion is a disagreement with you. Arta has not weighed in on most of my arguments.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 6:47pm
Sigh
ocean-kat, the underlying issue in the BBQ Becky has always been the involvement of the police. The concern is that police can escalate the situation. The risk of escalation is not a factor for you because you do not feel at risk. I provided a link to a black journalist detailing the anxiety he felt at being stopped by police.
You and AA cannot be as well-read as you claim if you are unfamiliar with harassment blacks feel at the hands of police. You focus on what you perceive as the rules. You feel that the black people at the barbecue are destroying the planet. Your concern is insane given that the Amazon is on fire.
You don’t care about the risk to the black family as long as the rules are obeyed. I repeatedly point out to you that the park services did not consider this a police matter. The dispatcher and the officer felt that Becky was the problem. You truly sound like an idiot.
Calling the police was not the appropriate action. You instinct would have been to call the police despite the risk. The result is the rest of your complaint sounds like gibberish.
Multiple jurisdictions are trying to work to get white people to stop making nonsense call. The BBQ Becky case is used as a prime example.
BTW, your complaint about my talking about race is a common one. However, if you are well-read and keep up with the news, not a day goes by without an incident involving race. The NYT has an excellent series, the 1619 Project, that deals with how slavery impacts our lives today. This serious discussion is driving Conservatives batshit crazy. Conservatives hate talking about race. Democrats running for the Presidency know that racism is an issue that has to be faced head on. Race is an issue that should be discussed frequently.
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 7:06pm
the underlying issue in the BBQ Becky has always been the involvement of the police.
For you the only point is racism and accusations of racism. For me the issue is about more than racism. It's also about the Tragedy of the Commons and the degradation of public parks. It's a more complex story that requires a more nuanced discussion. It's always and only about racism for you.
I repeatedly point out to you that the park services did not consider this a police matter.
These regulations exist in most public parks. In upscale white neighborhoods restrictions on use of charcoal grills are more likely to be enforced. Either the police enforce them or there are park personnel that enforce them. In poor neighborhoods, either black or white, the police are often to overwhelmed by more serious crime to enforce park regulations. There is no funds to hire park personnel to enforce the regulations
Some times politicians make political decisions to defuse tensions. In this case the sheer numbers of people disobeying the law make it difficult or impossible to enforce the law. That doesn't mean the law is wrong. I think I've made a convincing case why the regulations restricting charcoal grills in common areas are good and rational public health regulations. You have not even attempted to dispute those arguments.
The simple fact is that this park, and most parks in several countries, have regulations restricting charcoal grills to certain areas. You need to address why you think by far the vast majority of parks have these regulations. Frankly I don't think you know and you're unwilling to even consider my explanations because it disputes the racism accusation you want to spread. But honest dialog requires you to address that question that I've asked several times. You have still not answered.
You pointed out that protesting unjust laws is a valuable American tradition. But you have not explained why you think regulation of charcoal grills is an unjust law. We all agree that some laws are unjust but when you claim a law is unjust you need to make the case why and how they are unjust. You brought up the subject of unjust laws yet you have still not explained why regulation of charcoal grills is unjust. Understandable because they are not unjust and you only made that nonsense argument to try to get a "win."
The result is the rest of your complaint sounds like gibberish.
If my arguments were gibberish you could easily debunk them. But you haven't even attempted to address them.
Any honest dialog requires you to address these questions. But you're incapable of addressing them and you're uninterested in honest dialog.
You feel that the black people at the barbecue are destroying the planet.
That is a lie. You often lie because all you care about is winning the debate.
Your concern is insane given that the Amazon is on fire.
Is your argument that the only time we should discuss the Tragedy of the Commons and environment degradation is when it gets as bad as the fires in the Amazon? This has been a subject of conversation since 1833. By your standard it should never have been brought up. But then the Tragedy of the Commons has nothing to do with racism so of course you have no interest in the subject. Likely you have no idea what it is and you didn't bother to educate yourself by looking at my link.
not a day goes by without an incident involving race.
Many important things happen every day. Things that are important may not happen every day yet they are never the less important. I realize that the only thing that interests you are what you can claim are racist incidents but you're not the only one here. Some of us have other interests.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 7:52pm
I'm well enough read about the "BBQ Becky" story that it was not about police harassment of blacks, as no citations or arrests were made that day.also that the 911 dispatcher was rather dismissive about "Becky's" concerns.
It may or may not have been about Becky's irrational fear of people with black skin as a tribe of cultural otherness.To me, she probably was judging people with black skin almost like rmrd seems to fear people with white skin. Maybe she wasn't, though, there are also indications that she may have just been batshit crazy and color of skin had nothing to do with what she did.
And I think the Smith family was doing the right thing in using the buzz about what happened to hold a "stop the hate" event inclusive for all a year later. And I think you are doing the wrong thing by using the buzz to promote the idea of fear and loathing of the other and to beat the drum about police abuse of which there was none in this particular case (except maybe perhaps in being dismissive of crazy citizen "Becky".)
Furthermore, I have read that the area where the bbq happened was a designed area for bbq-ing, so I think oceankat was going a little over the top here, too. But later he admitted he was doing that to show you up as spinning and abusing the story.
Let's not forget that the "Becky" story actually had little to do with the thread until I used a parody from The Root of "Becky's" paranoid call to 911 to compare to farmer's market vendors researching one of their fellow vendors and finding out that they showed interest in white supremacist websites and then absurdly fearing that this couple was really there to bomb them or something rather than sell their vegetables.
So in neither of these stories does fear and loathing of the police tribe come in BUT SURE ENOUGH YOU'VE GOT TO BRING IT UP for the 1,000th time
Since it got so off thread because of you taking my use of a parody from The Root, I think one interesting result is oceankat's mention that the "Becky" story may be a class issue about different segregated neighborhood behavior styles and culture is a very interesting one. Especially as Republican suburban women's votes helped the Democrats win Congress in November and I imagine these neighborhoods as the type where they BBQ only in their own back yards and not in common shared spaces and some of those very same women might not like the idea of being called racist for not liking the idea of BBQ parties in public parks. Though they may not call 911 about such a gathering, they might be in favor of their local park authorities removing designated cooking areas in public parks but would not like that preference to mean they are for race war.
The more I read your obsessions, on the other hand, the more I think you are a fucking crazed segregationist full of fear of the other and a desire to fight rather than promote ways to get along with other people. Do you realize that you come off exactly like "Becky" here quite often? Yoiu can't ever even seem to be friendly with anyone on Dagblog. It's coming off more and more like you think we are all racists and need your preaching. If you don't intend that, the quality of your communication sucks.
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 8:08pm
I have read that the area where the bbq happened was a designed area for bbq-ing, so I think oceankat was going a little over the top here, too. But later he admitted he was doing that to show you up as spinning and abusing the story.
https://heavy.com/news/2018/05/jennifer-schulte-bbq-becky/
It was an area where non-charcoal grills can be used to BBQ, not charcoal grills. There's a reason for that differentiation. Non-charcoal grills use propane and stone or stone like materials that the owner doesn't dump on the ground. People dump used charcoal on the ground so they can take their grill home to use again. I continued the discussion on this trivial subject to show rmrd as spinning etc. But I always try to be as accurate as possible. From your link, " After cops made contact with the group of people barbecuing and advised them of what had occurred and the applicable violation for using the charcoal, the men agreed to pack up and leave and the incident was closed."
I imagine these neighborhoods as the type where they BBQ only in their own back yards and not in common shared spaces
That's probably mostly true. When they have a large group and want to BBQ in parks they probably use the stationary grills. That doesn't create problems since, again, you can't dump the charcoal on the ground. A better funded park might have more of these stationary grills or more likely poorer areas might have a greater number of people wanting to use them. If these suburban women think about it at all I think they likely like the regulations against charcoal grills. They may not realize it's a health hazard but you can see the used charcoal on the ground and no one wants their children playing in it.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 8:50pm
Sigh
From ABC News
From 'BBQ Becky' to 'Golfcart Gail,' list of unnecessary 911 calls made on blacks continues to grow
https://abcnews.go.com/US/bbq-becky-golfcart-gail-list-unnecessary-911-c...
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 8:56pm
That you can find a pundit who wrote an article that agrees with you is meaningless. I come here for serious discussion. I don't come here to simply post a few links to pundits that agree with me while you post a few who agree with you. What this means is that you are in fact incapable of answering any of my questions or making any serious arguments to challenge my arguments.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 9:10pm
Tip: you don't make news buddy friends by continually sighing at them like they are stupid and need some blacksplainin'
by artappraiser on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 8:04pm
You don’t make friends by using the term pity olympics and suggesting people with opposing views are uneducated and not well-read
by rmrd0000 on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 8:58pm
Any way the idea that we might become friends or even view each other with mutual respect disappeared years ago. While I find your constant focus on nothing but racism tedious I could deal with it if you engaged in serious dialog and didn't turn my arguments into strawmen.
by ocean-kat on Sat, 08/24/2019 - 9:39pm