MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
In front of 4,000 in Chicago.Forget 1%'er (he earned $1 million in 2016) Bernie bragged about the most progressive Democratic Platform in history just months ago. He is on his high horse again to stir up anger, fragment and purity test the opposition Party. The only roadblock to the policies of Trump and the GOP. Which would cut housing, health care, education, food stamps and federal programs for the poor and working class. Forget that the Democrats, have been successful and united in doing that. They DO NOT need purity testing for candidates and rants about "Wall Street" and "failure". They need candidates who appeal locally, they need unity, money and they need Bernie to pipe down and attack the GOP.
Comments
NYT:
by NCD on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 10:02am
Bernie? A two-edged sword ...
You can either learn that he's disruptive or constructive... or both.
It's ones choice how one uses him...
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 12:02pm
Do you believe that Bernie's financial success in 2016 has lessened his commitment to poor, working, and middle-class Americans? Why? What has he done or said that suggests this to you?
I understand that you believe that all non-Republicans must unite against Trump. Do you believe that if Bernie Sanders began to train all of his fire against Trump and the Republicans that would cause the voters who have abandoned the Democratic Party in recent years to return? Why?
Thomas B. Edsall in today's NYT writes:
Doesn't this suggest to you that Bernie's criticisms of the Democratic Party are well-founded even if one's only concern is to win elections regardless of the morality of the Party's positions?
by HSG on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 12:04pm
Are there specific policies that Bernie is calling for the Democratic Party to embrace that you think will alienate voters? Which ones? Are there policies that he is calling for that you think the Party should embrace?
by HSG on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 11:41am
Hal... See my post...
Just above yours...
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 12:06pm
So which do you believe Bernie is and why?
by HSG on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 12:14pm
Hal... He's both . . .
His reason? To drive more folks to the "contribute" button...
go.berniesanders.com
NOTE: In 50 years I've never contributed a dime to any national campaign.
I save it for the popcorn.
~OGD~
by oldenGoldenDecoy on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 9:11pm
The Democratic Party endorsed Bernie's policies in the platform.
As the quote above by the former Dem caucus head notes, those policies must be muted or ignored in some gerrymandered districts, like Sessions/Ossoff's right leaning district in Georgia.
Ossoff is not supportive of single payer or raising taxes...on Pelosi he says he may not support her. It's in the linked article. Bernie's guy lost to a billionaire in Montana. Big government may be a winner some day, not there yet with the electorate and districts and rural dominance in Senate.
Bernie needs to join the Party and stop attacking it.
by NCD on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 12:22pm
Bernie was wrong to say the Democrats endorsed his platform at the Convention. He said that because he was trying to rally his troops to support Hillary but it was an untrue statement.
A) The platform did not call for an expansion of Social Security.
B) The Platform did not repudiate the TPP.
C) The Platform did not repudiate fracking.
D) The Platform did not call for single-payer universal healthcare.
E) The platform did not call for tuition-free public colleges and universities (but it did come close). This is an area where the Democrats have been very good.
F) The platform did not call for legalizing marijuana.
Democratic leaders like Dianne Feinstein, Claire McCaskill, Corey Booker, and Tom Perez speak much louder than the party platform and they have made it increasingly clear that they are happy with the Democratic Party's pro-corporate agenda and are bound and determined to resist Bernie's influence. On the other hand, very few Democrats have truly embraced Bernie's pro-worker/anti-corporate funding agenda, although Senators Elizabeth Warren, Sherrod Brown, and Jeff Merkley have come close. Tulsi in the House is the probably all-around closest to Bernie.
Ossoff's district is a good example of one of the few where a more centrist Democrat might well do better than an economic populist but it is an outlier in terms of its affluence. Indeed, the fact that it's in play shows how the Democratic Party has moved away from pro-working class policies in recent years. When the Party runs pro-corporatist politicians in local races, it may increase the likelihood of success in some districts, however, Democrats do pay a price in the American public's overall perception of its candidates.
by HSG on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 12:35pm
Any candidate can run on those positions, there are primaries.
The GOP ran a witch for the Senate in Delaware.
I would vote for any Dem who ran against the GOP.
by NCD on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 9:53pm
Yawn, in love with fossil fuel, which is why this bonanza of wind & solar energy appeared out of nowhere. Who said this?
Sure, minimum wage boosts could help, but blindly taking them on too fast can also push large companies like Amazon and food chains like Wendy's to just automate faster at the expense of jobs, and small mom-and-pop stores like your local Chinese takeout or flower shop can take a beating. Possible to see an analysis on Bernie/Fight for 15's plans and agreed-on industry expert analysis?
Ironically again, black youth who can't get a job in this tight environment and overly-simplistic solution don't actually exist, since they're just an example of identity politics that needs to be folded into class struggle, and the class struggle is only concerned about the Starbucks/university campus sector along with a few other mostly white allied groups. It's okay, Obama largely ignored them too - they're used to being last to the table/left to hunt scraps.... But if they *could* get a job, it'd be at $15/hour - no compromises accepted. Yay!!!
The original idea of TPP was to level the playing field for the US trading with non-Chinese/Indian Pacific countries, ironically to balance out the unilateral China manufacturing & Indian H1-B/offshoring business that opponents complain about. Ultimately the US stands to receive 1/3 the benefits. Ironically, these other countries are much more transparent than China, and allow more serious enforcement of labor rules, unfair trading & currency practices et al. One of the compromises seems to lower the cursed US pharma patent period down to 5-7 years.
While Vietnam, Malaysia and Singapore aren't the poorest of Asian countries, they do represent the growing Asian Tigers, and it's a nice thought to support Vietnam as it moves from Communist enclave to a more open capitalistic if not fully democratic country, especially after we bombed the hell out of them for a decade. But the left isn't much interested in trade remedies for poverty, instead focusing solely on the US worker during this cycle, with the usual laments over the loss of 1960's manufacturing and coal jobs. World hunger and poverty is an afterthought as we go populist and protective.
It doesn't matter that the US continues to be nearly the most prosperous countries in the world and that the reason it's on austerity life support all the time is 1) voting in a Republican who took us into a horridly expensive 10-year pair of wars while codifying permanent unaffordable tax cuts for the rich, 2) inaction by same president on an obviously growing housing bubble tied to letting the banks & investment sector get away with massive fraud leading to trillion dollar bailouts, 3) permanent opposition to sane government and budget measures by the Republicans, and 4) price gouging by housing, health and education sectors.
Blaming any of our prosperity problems on the relatively minimal differences in trade-caused imports & exports is rather silly but entrenched "received wisdom", especially as ignores the obvious role China would play once it came out of isolation, as well as Eastern Europe & the Soviet Union as the fall of the Wall/CIS occurred, putting another 2 billion or so in the global competitive workplace, roughly a 50% increase in workers of vastly varied wealth. "Hey, Romania - glad you're free. Now starve, you trade-stealing cretins. Same to you, Uzbeks, Kenyans, Guatemalans....). Instead of pleasure that we helped weather that storm (and largely prospered from it), we're in a permanent state of anger, entitlement and embitterment toward the rest of the world.
You'd think that being on the same side as Trump would clue thinking folks into being on the wrong side of history, but dogmatism finds strange allies. Here's some more even-handed analysis. And here.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 12:38pm
in love with fossil fuel
It's crappy attack slogans like this that make Independents go more than yawn. It's like this: politics, what a waste of time, what a bunch of lying liars. Who is going to buy that line about the Dem party? No one, neither for nor agin, except for a very few radical green types. Same old stupid campaign hyperbole propaganda, so much time wasted reacting to lies thrown at each other. Look, you, PP, just now spent all this time defending against an absurd accusation that so few voters would believe in the first place, both knowledgeable ones and ones buying Trump bullshit. Even the people selling fossil fuel are looking to get out of it! If they are donating to a political party, their agenda is a little more complex than pushing fossil fuels.
All it makes me think is that Bernie people are going nowhere fast if they are going to practice that same old agitprop modus operandi that no one buys. It's trolling is what it is.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 1:34pm
Honestly I like to see you fight Sanders on policy instead of the usual defensive crouch stance of the mainstream democrats arguing to the left and to the right only in terms of how they are helpless, for cynical reasons, to adopt any other policy than the very corporate friendly ones they've got.
That said, I don't think Bernie's point was that the Democratic party is in love with the fossil fuel industry. It is that by taking so much of their money, they end up feeling pressured to make bad decisions. Like Hillary's hesitancy on the Keystone pipeline.
by Obey on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 2:02pm
Nixon once said, "the problem with asking people's opinion is eventually you have to take it". And this is going to happen, money or not - our constituencies will force us into stupid positions, like "no fracking" when fracking keeps us from kissing the Saudis' and Putins' ass and frees us from any serious concern about what goes on in the Mideast. Keystone? I don't even care. It's probably stupid and a waste, maybe a boondoggle for Canadian oil/tar sands, and why we need it heading all the way to Texas (someone said another boondoggle for some oil guy in Texas who will process everything). But compared to gulf drilling, health care, an attack on the Constitution, etc. it's way down there for me. Did Hillary dither over money or perception or wooing a particular class of voter? Well, I'll leave it to her professional opinion and priorities to figure it out. I don't see that Keystone was worth half the progressives being AWOL during the 2016 campaign to hang out on Indian lands somewhere up north protesting - again a serious lack of grownupness and priorities, and I want *them* writing our Democratic platform?
Rather than disengage from Wall Street, I want our party to *DEFINE*, *CODIFY* rules of engagement - what kind of interaction reeks of patronage and corruption, what kind is above-level working with a key monied and powerful constituency that we *NEED* to help us pay the bills on important legislation.
But with Hillary's Goldman speeches, despite them being a few out of many to a wide audience, she should have expected especially post-2008 meltdown that it'd be greeted like Interview with the Vampire, and despite me happy to have Wall Street pay for something non-damaging for a change, she should have at least donated all money from this one to charity (not Clinton Foundation).
It's a bit like the Bill Clinton-Lynch tarmac meeting, as I begrudgingly have to admit that even though I disagree with 2+ years of bullshit investigation that started with Benghazi and grew wings (much like Whitewater => Monicagate), that Clinton & Lynch meeting *privately* was improper besides a PR disaster, but that these bastards with their fake scandals have no right to demand that Clinton not meet with his prior colleague *publicly* (whether in front of witnesses in an open setting on a plane, or in another public place).
But the scolds on the left and the attack dogs on the right make everything the Democrats do a problem, and yes, it's killing us, or making our message horrid to get out and implement (and the media loves playing up these mini-scandals and tut-tutting over Democratic "appearances" even as they dumb down/"both sides do it" for the GOP infringements. The Republicans are going to raise a ton more than Democrats considering the number of billionaires like Koch & Mercer & Sheldon Adelson willing to go to extravagant measures to push big money and their conservative vision, and it's gotten much worse with Citizens' United. Yet Bernie's little ploy of being fundraising purity troll (even though the millions of anonymous $27 donations aren't transparent by any means) forces every candidate to go out timid and scared about raising money at all, while someone like Cruz just goes in to the big spenders and they make a deal and no one says boo.
So let's make some rules and guidelines so we can tell Bernie to fuck off with his purity/savior bit and instead focusing on meeting the needs of real people/constituents with the resources and enthusiasm to do it.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 2:12pm
I'm not sure what numbers you are looking at, but I thought the Democrats outraised the GOP in 2016 and are raking in the cash now with the anti-Trump line. Do correct me if that is wrong.
Your reaction makes me realize that we read events very differently and connect very different dots because
- you agree with (many of) the policy outcomes of this corporate filter democratic candidates and democratic ideas and priorities have to go through before they get on the legislative agenda. So of course you don't see it as a primarily corrupting influence, it mostly serves to sharpen policy. So worst case scenario it's harmless, best case it hands over policy making to the grown-ups and takes it out of the hands of immature idiots like those getting their skulls cracked in South Dakota.
- when you say stuff like "I'll leave it to her professional opinion and priorities to figure it out", you basically give her the benefit of the doubt. You trust these establishment Democratic politicians.
- you seem to view Bernie as some malevolent snake-oil salesman endowed with magical charisma to dupe people into finding flaws in the democratic party dependence on corporate money. If only someone would rid you of this turbulent priest, the party would be so popular. That is nuts to me on so many levels. He was raised to his current bully-pulpit because people were already pissed and were just waiting for someone, anyone to convey that message, even some weirdo grumpy grandpa who is so outdated he thinks we still use tokens on the subway. HE isn't the problem. There are a whole mass of people pissed out there who he managed somehow magically to convert into democratic voters. Didn't even more Sanders supporters end up supporting Clinton than Clinton managed to bring to Obama in '08? And that is despite the fact that many of his voters were independents.
- Mainstream democrats keep threatening to take their party and walk away, turning to suburban republicans rather than economic progressives. They treat them with contempt, like you do above. There is no attempt to introspect. Nor is there much of an attempt to go out and argue their case on the merits. They have lost touch with the grassroots, not because the grassroots have moved left, but because all the party infrastructure related to the grassroots has been left to wither and die whereas the corporate-related infrastructure dominates everything else.
All I got for now. Thanks for the thoughts.
by Obey on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 4:56pm
re: view Bernie as some malevolent snake-oil salesman endowed with magical charisma to dupe people into finding flaws in the democratic party dependence on corporate money. If only someone would rid you of this turbulent priest, the party would be so popular. That is nuts to me on so many levels.
I agree. And I don't even like him or his program. If he's got fans, he's got every right to keep ranting his shtick until he starts losing some. And there's a reason I should understand what his fans are like just along the lines of knowledge is power.
I guess I just don't get party loyalty, never did, but I think lots more people are there now. Why the fuck should he have to tow the party line of a party he left long ago? He joined in as a favor, is how I look at it. Trump with the GOP, a whole different story. But same hijack accusations. As if its a duty for all citizens to belong to one of two parties. It's not. Some of the founders didn't think we should have any at all!
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 5:10pm
The founders who didn't want a two-party system lost the argument. There were factions before the Revolutionary War, Independence vs. Pro-British Empire. After the were factions regarding political policy. Yin and Yang appears to be the norm. From a practical standpoint in the Presidential election, the winner will be the Democratic candidate or the Republican. If you voted third-party, thanks for electing Trump.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 10:07pm
1) I see Bernie as basically any other convenient talking head for movement ideas that were dropped on Bill Bradley and other candidates in former years. I don't think he personally built the movement or was responsible for it moving, though he can communicate righteous anger much better than Bradley.
2) I largely trust Hillary, yes, even though she'll make some shockingly poor choices here or there. I think her heart's in the right place and that she's largely devoted to ideals I approve of.
3) I deal with corporations and I deal with individuals, including business development. I see the flaws and benefits in both. In 1998, Celera Genomics stepped into the race to compete with the public Human Genome Project, and decisively won with a much faster, better approach. In 2000, Bill Clinton announced that the human genome could not be patented, which largely killed Celera's stock and much of the bioengineering field. I have several takeaways - where NASA can shine as a government effort and Celera can shine as a private effort, and that in the end there are humanitarian requirements that surpass business. I saw Soros help the Eastern Bloc's transition to democracy when the West felt too tapped out to spend & wanted its "Peace Dividend". But I'm a great admirer of the Marshall Plan (which was really the Truman Plan, but Truman was smart enough to know what the chance of passing something with his name on it rather than a military hero). I admire Elon Musk, even though I know without government grants, subsidies and tax breaks, his ideas would be dead in the water, so it's a combination effort. I recognize the various sides from The Innovator's Dilemma, where the big old incumbents are sometimes able to innovate and sometimes get stymied at important junctures and replaced by young upstarts - how did Google & Twitter & Facebook & Amazon come to dominate the scene? But all of these companies, bright & innovative as they are are happy to avoid taxes through fake offshore branches, and will screw their employees in various ways given the chance, even while justifying a "don't be evil" stance.
I believe in random and non-random acts of human kindness, but don't think it a substitute for coordinated government policy and programs, just something to augment in ways that government can't reach. And I live in a place that sponsors festivals, free museum nights, excellent public transportation, along with government health care, heavily subsidized education, and a number of other services that Americans seem to cringe at - I'm all for, I think it brings society together, but I can't yet imagine to deliver that argument to the US - we seem to have decided John Locke was out of his mind.
4) I don't treat "economic progressives" with contempt - I treat people with glib unthought-out answers with contempt. There are some articles that state that $15 minimum wage can work, some that state it will damage employment and small business. I think the real answer is that it may or may not depending on the care by the politicians and local environments that help implement and receive buy-in. I.e. process matters, not just the lightbulb in someone's head. Those processes sometimes include corporations, like it or not. US health care will always involve some ugly tradeoffs, though I think Obama made too many tradeoffs. Am I a progressive or a conservativish sell-out? I think of myself as largely a practical progressive, though possibly some of my real politik positions in trying to parse foreign relations gets me kicked out of the club. My fandom of Macron over Melenchon was part policy, part simply horserace & personality and who I thought was a Bigger Tent candidate that could bring needed inclusiveness to France & the EU rather than another partisan victory by left or right - hopefully this he does, but early days. In policy if I looked closer, I might be much more iffy. For Corbyn, it was that he simply seemed to lack direction & motivational ability, so was a poor choice around Brexit. He seemed to find his nut in the last 2 months, a bit more direction & energy, and hopefully he'll maintain that posture.
5) There are huge problems to solve - structural problems with the job market and jobs of the future and education and where people live, etc., etc., etc. Yet we keep traipsing to the past for comfort - still debating whether we should have abandoned good ol' manufacturing, coal, unions, etc. The first 2 hit a largely natural dead end, though we might have produced more close substitutes with some effort, but we didn't - we focused on the service & IT & FIRE sectors. And we cleaned up our environment quite a bit in this painfu,wages stalling pivot. Which partly includes our treatment of unions - not always the easiest friends, but friends, and treated poorly, to our detriment - who in the past handled this question of minimum wage better than street protests in general have. But they're down to a pathetic 5% or so in the private sector, so it's debating something historical mostly. Part of our meeting the future will be with channeling tech & other types of business innovations; many of them won't be and will actually work against some of these (such as Uber's basically serving both a societal benefit as well as a vampire freelance model that guarantees no benefits, dropping them on society. How do we cultivate a flexible free market that's still protected around the sidelines and goalposts?)
Grassroots - we're all grassroots - identity politics people, class warfare people, bastard ornery white people like me, folks in flyover country and on the coasts and living abroad... No political party or candidate's ever asked my opinion, but folks in Iowa and New Hampshire have microphones shoved up their butts for months like special exam month in the proctology ward (and if I were an evangelical Christian I'd have so many advocates, and if I were this or that I'd have more). But how did we miss their problems? Flint's water problems were national news, as was that township on Lake Michigan that went bankrupt and made a ward of the state, etc., along with the high profile auto bailouts in 2009/10 - how are these not known situations, heartland needs?
I've been playing Sudoku, and sometimes as I'm jotting in the numbers, it all gets too complex and I can't see any patterns. Sometimes when I write down less, it's much easier for a more important pattern to appear.
We're distracted with all these foreign engagements, security scares, appeals to patriotism/support the troops, economic & job uncertainty, continuous thieving on Wall Street, all these "lifestyle issues" the Republicans keep pushing, and an endless supply of faux scandals. It's a wonder that we can see any solutions, much less take steps to implement, but energy's overall going well, in general war's getting less, etc. But that's only a few squares in the game - there's a lot that's out of whack.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 5:41pm
Great stuff. No time for a longer response now. Just a couple of notes.
Status quo bias seems to me to be out the window, mate. In the UK, Momentum nutcases crafted a hard-left manifesto that won the vote in ... KENSINGTON. What the hell is going on I don't have a clue. But gosh-darn hand wringing about what the good people of Lake Wobegon are going to think seems quaint a this point. Like I was saying on the other thread, that go-to defensive crouch stance doesn't carry much weight, and not just for me, for ANYONE, it seems.
And I'm not necessarily taking lefty 70s classic rock nostalgia as the default breaking of the status quo. Seen the news today about Macron? Le Centrisme est mort, Vive le Centrisme!! What the hell is going on there? That is even more impressive than Corbyn, and shakes all my preconceptions about France.
by Obey on Mon, 06/12/2017 - 5:01am
We are all Jon Snow now.
(This Jon Snow is the much respected bastard prince of Channel 4)
by Obey on Mon, 06/12/2017 - 5:13am
Someone blasted UK media across the board for trying to destroy Corby & being grossly unfair to him over the last year. So maybe much of what I "know" about him is completely wrong.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 06/12/2017 - 6:01am
The title should be "Bernie headlines training event for new democratic party candidates". Sounds like a promising initiative.
Meanwhile, I think Bernie's is a factual claim, The Dem party favourability rating is down to 40% from 45% in November. Way to shoot the messenger there. Hillary is trashing the DNC but that is somehow fine with everyone. Funny how that works.
I think all constructive criticism should be welcome.
Meanwhile Corbyn has increased Labour party membership four-fold and brought the rank and file numbers back to figures comparable with the 70's heyday! No one thought that kind of left-wing organizing success was possible. But all American Democrats can do is piss on his incredible feat of bringing Labour back to competitiveness and single-handedly stopping Hard Brexit in its stride.
But hey, just keep whining about the nasty leftists warning about the open gash in the hull with the water gushing in and keep fiddling while the boat sinks.
by Obey on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 1:14pm
Bleh. Hillary had a specific complaint re: the DNC, whether justified or not. Bernie, that non-member of the Democratic Party who continually trashed it in his short time as member was saying "The Democratic Party is a disaster" on however many fronts, and distorting its history as he did it (oblivious even to the TV hearings we haven't seen since Watergate pointing out the Russian meddling that tilted the elections to a loss). I get it, Bernie's motherfucking Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed all rolled into one. Once he's gone we can deify him and start a new religion. In the meantime, we have real people with divergent interests. Bernie brings up Mississippi, but when Hillary won Mississippi his campaign head said that was useless to even think about the South. Now Bernie rocks the 50-state nation. And he's still pandering his not-quite-fleshed out ideas, as I note above.
And no, I don't think Democrats are pissing on Corbyn - many are very impressed with Corbyn's fast come-from-behind tie/hung parliament that yes, put Brexit floundering in the water.
It's been 2 years - all this "establishment" smear gets boring & tiring. Yeah, the young kool kidz is where it's at. Now can we turn the channel for real?
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 1:48pm
I'm willing to be convinced. but...
Look, I have seen a lot of Blairites to their credit do a 180 and talk about their respective epiphanies. But I haven't heard anyone in the US democratic party say anything after having trashed him over the past year. Their big boy Messina was the mastermind behind May's strategic decision to (try to) finally destroy Labour in their temporary moment of apparent weakness. Democratic establishment power broker if there is any. Any congratulations from the Dem party establishment would look pretty hilariously hypocritical at this point. They tried their best to kill him off. That speaks volumes to me.
by Obey on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 2:04pm
He was speaking not to a Bernie campaign crowd but to a convention of
The People's Summit.
On their website there is a "Partners" tab which gives you a partial list of supporting organizations. On their "About" tab it outlines gives a list of speakers for this convention including not just Bernie but also Naomi Klein, Roseann Demoro and Shaun King.
Obviously this organization stands on its own apart from Bernie and apart from the Dem party. And in The Guardian article it is explained how they are training minority people to run for office
I think that in order to analyze what is happening on the political scene going forward, you Hillary folks have to let go of your bitterness about what Bernie caused to happen with the presidential race. Note these people are not starting with the presidential race. If their candidates should win some offices, they will no doubt vote with Democrats on most things on their city council or state legislature or whatever, just like Bernie does in Congress now.
I think that those who continue to think "this is all about a Dem candidate for president losing in the future" you are losing out on understanding the ramifications.
Both parties are not unified right now, it's just that simple. You are currently seeing lots of movement away from supporting both parties big tents. There may be a new paradigm forming because of the disaster catalyst called Trump.
There's not going to be loyalty to the big parties for the foreseeable future, deal with that, not with what Bernie caused to happen in the presidential election.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 1:54pm
It'd be easier just thinking of them having a meeting of kindred spirits, rather than again the Bernie gang presuming to take over the party rather than productively participate in the rumble-tumble of party squabbles.
I have an easier time with Corbyn now because he *didn't* take his toys and go home, and he *didn't* go full testosterone bonkers to get his way, and he *didn't* take a hard stance on Brexit because his constituency has a rather contradictory and understandable distaste for Brexit.
I have the biggest problem with Brexit, but Corbyn's a Remainer but still, the Brits seem to largely/majority-wise favor an exit with all the caveats, and Corbyn's playing a non-dogmatic role in representing progressive ideals without pushing this as the sine quo non issue of the election - rather smart, I have to admit, and I'm a Yank, so in the end it's really not my call.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 2:24pm
The Guardian article is of particular interest to me because of the candidates the reporter speaks to: two African-Americans and a Latino wanting to better represent their communities. That is directly related to a couple of past interactions I have had on this website with member rmrd. He posted several comments warning that if Dems did not pay more attention to the "Afro-American community" that they are going to stay home and not vote this time. And I basically responded more than once to that: what a stupid threat, to chose not to vote, basically gets you nothing, that if you don't like what a party is doing for you, start your own and run candidates to represent you. That as a supposed monolithic community all with the same aims, they would have no one to blame but themselves. Well, here, this story says rmrd's fears wrong, they are not all going to just helplessly stay home. So those who are Dem party loyalists have to deal with that.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 2:02pm
Maybe translate rmrd's "stay home" as meaning "you ignore us, we'll find some way to a) make you pay and b) make ourselves heard". Yeah, not voting's not terribly productive when it's what the enemy wants more than anything anyway.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 2:26pm
AA, Democrats, including these minority candidates, are going to have to do more than talk. They will have to encourage people who are not feeling the benefits of voting to actually get out and vote. We have political parties competing for votes. If these candidates. Cannot get people to come out and vote in larger numbers than their opponents, they will lose. If the candidates aren't willing to fight for votes, they will lose.
The choice is to yell at people threatening to stay home or to craft a message to tell people that you will address their issues. You seem focused on the losing tactic of yelling. Hopefully, Democrats are capable of doing more than yelling and will do real outreach.
Edit to add:
Marginalizing black voters is one reason Hillary lost.
https://newsone.com/3591572/election-fallout-advice-to-democrats-about-b...
Democrats better do outreach.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 4:52pm
I'm not focused on any party tactic. Why do you presume I care what the Dem party does? I am an Independent. The parties' job is to sell me and others if they want my vote, they lost me long ago. I vote for individuals.
All I was saying is that if you neither want to vote for individuals, nor for a party that exists,.then you are going to have to start your own. Just threatening to sit it out, like a child having a temper tantrum, because you voted party line in the past and expect some gratitude for that is: just plain stupid. Especially if you've been gerrymandered into undesirablity as to courting by the parties.
GOP doesn't have to beg red as red can be districts to get out and vote either. If a lot of those people threaten to stay home, and they are not donors, the GOP gives a flying fuck, they are still going to get the district. It's the swings and the purples that everyone panders to and has to court.
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 5:02pm
You vote for individuals. People who find that Democrats don't address their issues and that Republicans are openly hostile now argue that there is no reason to vote. In the end, the result will be the same.
Edit to add:
The Tea Party was not spontaneous, it was funded by billionaires
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brendan-demelle/study-confirms-tea-party-_...
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 5:42pm
Many more black voters were marginalized by voter obstruction than by indifference, and if there was indifference, I think it was by Democratic institutions themselves or Obama not pushing black-specific* remedies/responses for unemployment or mortgage theft or bank treatment, rather than Hillary & her campaign, as I think she made that effort a lynchpin in her campaign, despite the many efforts to discredit her street cred with blacks. And the turnout was quite high.
I think the biggest problem was progressive women, not conservative women. I talked to 1 young Hispanic female millennial who had bought into the "can't trust Hillary" thing - couldn't verbalize why, just felt flustered, so she didn't vote or voted 3rd party. They got to her. Focusing on the supposed "why blacks didn't show up" is fundamentally misleading. Sure, if Hillary were black, she might have done better, but she did largely as well as could be expected with that community. Others such as Hispanic and various classes of women are much more bewildering. The disinfo that's been shouted into poor white communities in flyover country? Not so surprising.
*There's never a problem creating policy around conservative Christian needs, LGBT needs, policies for children, for retirees, for vets, for immigrants, for AIPAC/Bibi, for neocons, for Wall Street, for anti-abortion proponents, etc. But the mere mention of something to help out the black community sets up wailing and gnashing of teeth. Everyone's down with St. Paddy's Day, Cinco de Mayo, all of this rejoicing in diversity, but "Let's not throw black people in the back of police vans and break their spines Day" seems to be asking too much, never mind cutting down on Giuliani's fav "stop and frisk".
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 5:58pm
There is a subset of voters that will back Trump no matter what. We need outreach to every community. I don't see Bernie's demonization of Democrats as helpful. He probably alienates many people. His initial comments about Ossoff were not helpful. Like Trump, Sanders is too old to change his habits.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 8:18pm
"I talked to 1 young Hispanic female millennial who had bought into the "can't trust Hillary" thing - couldn't verbalize why, just felt flustered . . ."
Odd, the people with whom I correspond who have trouble verbalizing why are those who bought in to the whole "trust Hilary" thing. Those who don't trust her have absolutely no difficulties setting forth precisely why with copious detailed examples.
by HSG on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 8:47pm
Are they happy that they helped elect Trump?
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 10:08pm
This belongs on this thread for big picture perspective
The GOP That Failed
The party didn’t decide. And now Republicans are stuck with Trump.
By Jeff Greenfield @ Politico Magazine, June 10, 2017
by artappraiser on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 4:06pm
Ah, but the Democrats nearly did the same with the DNC and the normal rules of the game - superdelegates didn't matter, popular vote didn't matter, the DNC was corrupt, the party needed to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch & the process was rigged... Coincidence? I think not. You don't fight the system - you destroy or confuse its credibility. Even the media knew it was the year of anti-establishment thinking. And how did they know that? Who told them to push that meme through the wall?
After all this perusing and aggregating different things together, I'm rather aware that a lot of stuff I post thinking it's "original" doesn't have to be original - just forgotten sources, like Winston trying to remember where he'd heard "how many lemons say the Bells of St. Clemens". Now we just Google it. But what if Google changes the answer between the 1st and 2nd time we look it up? 2+2 really can equal 3 and 5 and good ol' familiar 4. I used to live in a flat where someone had stamped "My Art Belongs to Dada" everywhere. Years later, My Memory Belongs to Google. No, Putin. No, Trump. No, Mercer. I love Big Brother. I just wish I could remember what he looks like.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 4:46pm
If we never stop fighting with each other, we won't stand much of a chance in Nov. 2018. Keep your eyes on the prize and ignore the bullshit gossipy stuff that wants the Bernie and Hillary supporters to continue to fight, it is a distraction we just don't need.
by tmccarthy0 on Sun, 06/11/2017 - 5:41pm