MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Don't call it "atheism" - that's tainted. But Trump will be the last (scandalized and hypocritical) hurrah for American religion. They gambled their future on a huckster, and you can't put that genie back in the box, certainly not in the internet age, even if a generation of post-millennials weren't already going to kill it.
But look at the revolt in Iran - same thing. Decades lost trying to revert to medieval times. The kids are pissed - they know how to Google and chat - they can look at history and what's important.
God may not be dead, but he/she's being marginalized and secularized every day. Probably 2/3 of those getting the vote each year don't seriously believe in God, and 90+% of thise dying each year do. God is beeing overtaken by math.
Comments
From your keyboard to god's ears.
by wabby on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 7:10am
thought it was "By God's whiskers..." (which seems a bit sexist at this point)
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 7:52am
Well, I dunno. One of my grandmas had a few on her chin. She used to pluck 'em out with tweezers just before she went to church.
by wabby on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 10:19am
I was worried you were going to bring that up. And let's not mention ear hair.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 12:49pm
Having seen the black church in action during the holidays feeding and clothing the poor, I find no joy in the decline in church membership.. The linked article notes that black evangelicals voted against Trump, so the article really deals with white evangelicals. Reverend William Barber was a leading figure fighting voter ID laws in North Carolina. There is no secular organization of whites that seems ready to fill the gap that will be left as whites leave the church. In fact, secular white organizations often have to be dragged into the fight against voter suppression. There were some coalitions formed between some white and black churches. The gap that will be left with declining church membership is addressed in the article’s last paragraph.
Link to an article noting that black congregation operating under the banner of national black churches are not losing members or black millennials. The exodus of blacks from mainstream churches may be true.
http://religionnews.com/2015/08/13/black-churches-bucking-trend-decline/
Reverend Barber fighting the good fight against a racist Trump Federal Court nominee.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/26/opinion/william-barber-trumps-judge-farr.html?_r=0
Barber considers himself an evangelical.
Another black evangelical, A.R. Bernard bolted from Trump’s Evangelical Advisory Board because he did not find Christianity there.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/19/politics/pastor-bernard-trump-evangelical-advisory-board-don-lemon-cnntv/index.html
The trend towards church membership decline will continue. There is no reason to believe that the results will result in social enlightenment.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 10:20am
Well, what Mama said to do is true whether there's a guy on a cross behind it or some monk meditating under a tree or just old common sense & neighborliness. And you don't have to belong to a church for "Do unto others... " to make sense.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 12:52pm
The article just points out the lack of secular organizations to fill the gap. Humanists are ware of the concern.
https://thehumanist.com/commentary/disaster-relief-can-humanism-fill-gap
The question of charity will be answered since the decline in church attendance will continue.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 1:20pm
I reject the idea that because the government is slow or unable to take meaningful action to deal with our problems that we need to encourage people to believe in the dangerous and immoral lies in the bible or at least accept the harm those lies do because these harmful religions do a tny bit of good social work. The harm mitigated by one small program like Obamacare that affected a small % of the population was far greater than years of charitable giving. SCHIP, that affects a small % of poor children saved or improved the quality of life of more kids than all the food and clothing given by charities. Medicare and social security in the last 50 years probably exceeds all charitable giving since the beginning of the country by several times.
Only single digit percentages of money given to religions organizations goes to services to the poor. Less than they would pay in taxes if the government decided to stop funding religions with tax exemptions. If religions were taxed at normal rates we'd have more money to spend on services to the poor than religious organizations currently spend.
So spare me the argument that these immoral organizations spreading vile lies should be protected or funded by the government because they do tiny amounts of good work for the poor.
eta:
by ocean-kat on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 5:18pm
Are you the same guy who lectures me about not labeling the people who voted for Trump as sympathizers for racists?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 5:03pm
Is this in any way a reasonable rebuttal of my arguments? Does it address any point I made? Diversion and obfuscation is all you ever do here.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 5:10pm
You made a statement and offered links to support your position. You liable church charity as immoral organizations spreading vile lies. You lump all churches together. Church donations can be considered charitable donations. A study of 400 black congregations noted that the churches delivered $400 million dollars of services, or or about $500K per church.
http://www.philanthropy.org/publications/online_publications/african_american_paper.pdf
I don’t include the Megachurches in the defense. Senator Grassley attempted a review of megachurch finances, but had limited cooperation. Pastors like Creflo Dollar and the late Eddie Long failed to cooperate.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/40960871/ns/politics-capitol_hill/t/televangelists-escape-penalty-senate-inquiry/#.WkrDNFNOlvI
I see churches helping the poor without requiring them to sit through a sermon. People pick up food and clothing, are fed in kitchens and are free to leave. I think the people needing food would not want t see the programs disappear.
I found it amazing that you lumped all churches together
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 6:33pm
Please, both of you stop. That isn't what this news item is about in any case.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 6:36pm
I'm just responding to rmrd's comment that claimed the good works for the poor is a justification for spreading these immoral religious fictions. I'll drop it when he does. Since 99% of the time I get into a debate with rmrd I drop out and let him have the last word, in fact most of the time the last word isn't enough for him, usually he has to take the last word 2 or 3 times with multiple posts, that this time I'm determined to get the last word. Ban me if you must.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 6:57pm
So you want to pick and choose what churches are doing enough for the poor to qualify for a tax exemption. Your church, yes, megachurches, no. What percentage of "charitable" donations given to a church should be sufficient to qualify? Charity Navigator (one of the top charity evaluating organizations) says: "We believe that those spending less than 33% of their budget on charitable program expenses are simply not living up to their missions. Charities demonstrating such gross inefficiency receive a 0-star rating" Do you think a minimum of 33% is a fair expectation? What percentage of the "charitable" giving to your church goes to services to the poor? Is it closer to the norm of 5%? Why should the government fund your private social club?
Frankly I don't give a fuck about how much money churches spend on the poor when if they were taxed like any other private membership group in America those taxes would exceed the amount spent on the poor. Those tax benefits are government funding that in virtually every case exceeds the amount they give to the poor.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 7:52pm
Yes, I do separate out some megachurches out from what other churches were doing. Joel Osteen’s Church was an abomination during Hurricane Harvey. Others churches actually responded.
https://psmag.com/news/the-complicated-role-churches-play-in-disaster-relief
You are willing to let people suffer if it a choice between churches providing aid and the church providing aid. I’ll let you make the taxation first argument to people in need of help.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 8:15pm
Black churches played an important role in GOTV in Alabama and they will in other states. Pastors like Reverend Barber realize that voter ID is a modern attempt at voter suppression. Voter fraud is a scam. Impediments are put in place to prevent black citizens from obtaining proper ID. I’ll take the church action without any problem.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/sparking-an-electoral-revival-in-alabama/548504/
Given the current administration, I doubt that your desired church taxation will happen any time soon. Given that reality do you want churches to refrain from providing aid?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 8:34pm
Churches want to make an undeserved windfall profit using the excuse of their aid to the poor as a justification while getting more in tax benefits than the aid costs them. Churches are stealing tax dollars, giving a fraction of it to the poor, then claiming they deserve it for serving the poor. Essentially stealing from the poor to pay for their private social club. I want people to get the aid they deserve based on the taxes paid. I don't want to finance the building for your social club. I don't want to help you pay the salary for your lecture series. While you're bragging about the food and clothing your church gives to the poor tell us what percentage of the "charity" your church receives goes to services for the poor. Virtually every charity on record spends a greater percentage of their donations on good works than churches. I'm sure the members of your club get a detailed budget every year that clearly states the crumbs you throw to the poor as opposed to the cash your church spends on the building of your private social club and services for the membership. Let's be honest, you could find the information but the numbers are too embarrassing to you to post.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 9:40pm
A certain relative is happy to donate unwanted junk to the poor and take full or high value deduction for it. The taxpayer is paying for half that largesse directly to the rich person while the donated goods have next to 0 value for the poor. As just 1 example. A lot of other scams. Trump has laid out some of them.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 2:18am
Okat and RM - among the most incisive posters here, seem to be talking past one another and both have good points.
Okat is right that tax free status as a drag on tax collections, is getting worse, and hinders government financing of important programs, RM is right that black churches do important work getting out votes, and in providing aid to those in need.
Tax exemption abuse widespread. It is accelerating due to GOP attacks on valid IRS investigations of the plethora of fake groups, and the tax exempt explosion and fraud extends far beyond churches.
GOP plutocrats and their stooges in Congress have been and are gaming the "tax exempt" system. O'Keefe's Operation Veritas is tax exempt, and is financed by tax exempt Koch astro-turf groups. Pat Robertson's tax exempt Operation Blessing apparently mixed charity with diamond mining and deals with war criminals. Trump paying off his bills with his tax exempt Foundation, really a slush fund, and now shutting down and under investigation.
Republicans new tax law allows the rich to accumulate tax exempt income to fund their children's tuition at tax exempt private 'religious" schools. The GOP hopes the (partially) tax funded voucher schools will be Betty DeVos approved indoctrination centers for right wing ideology, Trump Jugend. Reducing funds for public schools, and reducing federal and state tax collections.
by NCD on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 10:34pm
Rather than finding another way to have a food fight, the whole point of this posting was that irreligion is happening anyway, for whatever motive. We're globally moving away from religion, whatever the actions of a few.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 6:31pm
Maybe a distinction could be made between the concept of religious authority and the use of religion as a way to express and preserve values and universals. By Nietzsche's measure of when Nihilism kicks in, we should all be running around hacking away at each other with no moral compass. The disinclination to join a congregation doesn't make one a secular agent by default.
Being exclusively secular is difficult to comprehend without a contrasting background.
by moat on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 4:42pm
The church provides organization to do good. The comparison to secularism was only to point out that there would be a loss of church organizations tha charitable work. I was not making a moral argument. Obviously, white Evangelicals are part of the church as a whole. The white Evangelicals who make excuses for Trump and Roy Moore are not moral. The Evangelicals who support taking healthcare away from children are not moral. A subset of black Evangelicals are as misogynistic and homophobic as the most rabid white Evangelical.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 5:16pm
The church is an social organization designed overwhelmingly to provide services to it's members. The "charitable" giving pays for a building, often ostentatious and expensive, for members to gather to sing songs and chant together. That "charitable" giving pays for a lecturer to give a talk for the entertainment of the members. It pays for the members' children to be brainwashed with lies in the hopes that they will continue to finance this member association when they get older. We can argue whether any of this does good or whether the 5% or less these organizations spend on services to the poor is worth the loss of revenue from the tax exemptions they get. I don't have any problem if people want to join together to form some sort of social club no matter what belief system motivates them, whether it be the Masons, Shriners, members only golf clubs, or christians. I just don't see why the government should finance groups of people singing and chanting together or help to pay for their building and their lecture series.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 5:57pm
The church provides organization to do good
Many, but simply not true for all churches. Not even all Christian churches, for them, see Sola Fide. And Calvinism for example, and the type of covenant theology where the main thing is that you are the chosen people; where there's not much need with interaction with others at all much less good works towards the other.
The main function of many different "churches" is to share faith in doctrine. Good works can be part of the doctrine. Or not.
Some promote good works in the doctrine, like Hinduism and Buddhism, but don't offer their "church" as a place to accomplish good works.
Then there's the Shinto and various animalist sects where They view humans as fundamentally good, with the evils in the world being caused by troublesome and devilish kami. As such, the purpose of most Shinto rituals is to keep away evil spirits.
Etc.
Edit to add: moat put this right at the start of his first comment: the use of religion as a way to express and preserve values and universals. It's just a sharing of certain universal values and beliefs.
by artappraiser on Mon, 01/01/2018 - 11:26pm
The churches I am most familiar with were black Progressive churches. The initial church identified with MLK and we were there at the March on Washington. Church annals describe the battles freedmen and women were having surviving in a segregated society.
The pastor at the church services I attended during the holidays quoted Malcolm X and afterwards laid out plans to do even more to help those in the inner city. A significant number of the parishioners come from outside of the area where the church resides. They resisted efforts to move the church to a more affluent location.
We are a very tolerant church. We listen with amusement when both white Liberals and white Conservatives give us instructions on Christianity.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 12:35am
Dude you happen to be black and I happen to be white but I'm not just criticizing black churches. I'm criticizing religious tax exemptions the vast majority of which goes to white churches. Not just christianity though christian churches are more numerous. There are synagogues, mosques, scientology buildings etc. that also steal tax payer money to fund their social clubs. You play your race card because you can't make a rational defense of the money you take for your social club.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 4:17am
No, he "plays his race card" because his biggest focus is on race issues, surprise surprise.
In any case, it's not clear why a church should get tax exemptions for involving itself in politics, except some political issue that has serious identifiable religious ramifications.
I would guess if a church wanted its social activities exempt, it should have those expenses clearly identifiable and separate from other activities. I'm sympathetic that we got a lot of political good out of black churches for Civil Rights, but at the same time we're then left defending right wing churches' use of church time to further their political causes. Not that any of it matters when there are billionaires backing whatever cause and gerrymandering still accepted by the Supreme Court and the police still think shoot first kind-of-explain-later is "policing".
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 4:33am
If we attempt to grade the degree of harm and the extent of the theft the tv evangelicals, megachurches, and the weird creations like Scientology do the greatest amount of harm and steal the most tax payer dollars. Black progressive churches and liberal white churches, and off shoots like Unitarians likely do the least harm and steal lesser amounts of tax payer dollars. But any good work a church does is done more economically by non profits focused on these issues or by the government. So much of the donations to churches is sucked up by administrative costs and services for members that little is left to do good works.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 5:29am
I would guess if a church wanted its social activities exempt, it should have those expenses clearly identifiable and separate from other activities.
On that point, I have always wondered if tax and financial purpose are the reason for Catholic Charities, separate from the Catholic Church. From looking at the Wikipedia entry, while it predates the income tax, from the Wikipedia entry it looks like maybe reorganization during the Reagan years for those reasons:
Whatever the case, I know it is highly respected as a charity for how they use the money and the works they do. Many non-Catholics use it for charitable donations, it is popular as a charity with non-Catholics. For example the New York Times with their "Neediest Cases" campaign during the holidays, they work a lot with them.
I get this sense non-Catholics feel that they can trust it because it is not secular like the United Way or Red Cross, because there is the extra added factor of Christian belief in compassion for the poor and those with the least power. So that is an argument against removing the faith thing totally from tax deductibility. At the same time, with Catholic Charities, it appears that they have made it an entity separate from the church so that others feel that they are not endorsing the Catholic church as a whole when they support it? A win for both sides to separate the charity work from the other parts of the church itself?
by artappraiser on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 12:35pm
Yes, that satisfies me - I don't see a need for deductions for mass wafers or a bigger pulpit, but services to the poor in praise of Christ or Allah or Krishna seems unarguably good. (with limits on forceful proselytizing to the desperate).
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 2:55pm
So, a sliding scale, with St. Francis of Assisi on one end and prosperity Christians on the other. No need for a litmus test of good intentions. The distance between input and output is sufficient information.
by moat on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 6:40pm
Ah but reality bites: do we have evidence that congress and/or government bureaucrats do a better job of funds distribution? The question actually goes bigger picture on taxes than what we are talking about here, as the current Congress just took away some incentive for donations to charity on the donor side! Higher standard deduction per year means less incentive to donate. I noted with interest this piece in the NYTimes money section advising the more charitably minded with higher incomes how to "bunch" donations into biannual gifts so they could still get a deduction under the new law. I recall ye olde timey thousand-points-of-light noblesse obligey thing did sell well in the late 80's and early 90's.
by artappraiser on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 6:55pm
The sliding scale would be a matter of tax relief. If we were to modify the exemption status of religions from anything goes to whoa-there-fella, it could only be done the way other non-profits show gains versus losses. The activity would still be private. The difference would be how the monies are treated as Capital returns of investment.
by moat on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 7:26pm
I proudly play the race card because there are different viewpoints. When Hillary lost, one of the first responses was to complain about identity politics. Hillary lost because Democrats pay too much attention to special interest groups like blacks. I rejected that thesis. When there were worries about a lack of enthusiasm among black voters , some advised that Democrats should not do any special outreach to energize the black community. Fortunately, there was enough common sense in the party that they did do outreach. Democrats knocked on doors and helped get out the black vote. Now that black women are being praised for coming out to vote, some are grumbling that Democrats are not paying enough attention to the white working class voters. We simply have different perspectives. The black church remains an important social institution in the black community. I do not want to see it’s impact diminished by your tax plan.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 8:54am
Pigs at the trough always want the gravy train to continue. It's human nature, doesn't matter what color the human is. Implying AA or I are racist or that it's about white liberals criticizing black churches when my criticism points at more white people than people of color just shows how intellectually derelict your defense of the religious tax scam is.
by ocean-kat on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 2:46pm
17.7% go to church regularly with max 25% attend 3 out of 8.
25% meet with small (<20) groups instead of church.
Unsurprisingly, diverse cultures have less church growth - churches know how to focus on 1 demographic usually.
In 2050, attendance expected to be 11.7%, down from 20.4% in 1990.
Nevertheless, at this point non-church-goers still often identify with a church and religion. How that'll keep up is another item to track.
But all of this likely spells trouble for the Christianized right, unless these small groups and social media somehow manage to foster a revival of sorts. Will the tiny religious circles produce more New Testament-based doctrine, or simply a myriad of echo chamberlets of politicized self-aggrandizing politics?
[Megachurches are still doing relatively well over mid-sized churches. A certain cachet like having an iPhone. But will these "brands" hold up over time? One of the biggest, Liberty University's with a $2billion+ endowment, may take a hit after backing the wrong politicized horse these past 2 years.]
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 4:47am
I watched this interesting ted talk some time ago.
Why there is no way back for religion in the West | David Voas |
Religion is in decline across the Western world. Whether measured by belonging, believing, participation in services, or how important it is felt to be, religion is losing ground. Society is being transformed, and the momentum appears to be unstoppable. You might be asking yourself two questions. Is it actually true? And even if religion is currently losing ground, could things change in the future?
by ocean-kat on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 5:10am
1 of his important points is how bizarre religion looks from outside.
I remember as a kid, the official church service seemed bizarre & insufferable (despite an occasional memorable good point from a preacher), whereas the tiny Sunday School study group seemed to be at least somewhat interesting - and more resembles a typical Meetup from Meetup.com or similar, rather than an officially ordained religious ceremony.
And this point says it's much harder for a culture to take on another culture's religion - the 60's infatuation with India aside.
And it can be recognized that the dilution of your own culture will bring the dilution of its religion, and for some a feeling of unease and things falling apart. There might be a revival, but with the globalization mix of all things together, it's becoming harder and harder to be truly surprised. If religion rises again, it will more likely (IMHO) be from careful control and targeting of misinformation than a natural acceptance of what makes sense, rationally or intuitionally.
I suppose religion has always been closely tied to peer pressure and group beliefs, sometimes critical persuasion, sometimes shared hallucination (such as some famous sighting of miracles), along with a way to explain unexplained events. We've come a long way from "The End of War as We Know It" in the late 1800's, and our ability to slice & dice, deconstructive analysis, is much greater, even though Google and others have taught us the beauty of aggregated data for creating possibilities that weren't there in small numbers.
1 factor that I didn't see mentioned in the talk is that with all the increased interconnectedness and scope of events in the last 2 centuries, there doesn't to the untrained observer seem a lot of places where some beneficient all-knowing creator put his/her thumb on the scale to make things better. It seems strange that the flooding of the world and parting of the Red Sea happened so often (well, over a few thousand years), but now all our prominent events are this person figuring out X, that group legislating Y, and of course some madman (typically male) pushing some Z kind of inhumanity and genocide. Sometimes things got better by a God-inspired person(s) working hard and cleverly, but often God's still used on the wrong side of history.
And if God wanted to make a difference, s/he could have certainly stepped in quicker. Perhaps God's a no-drama Obama type that wants to stay in the background, but that's hardly a way to get a larger following and increase confidence in method, as Barack himself surely realizes. Without a big hole in our explanations that the Hubble telescope or Google/internet or nanotech or some other human cleverness can't give a reasonable hand-waving attempt at deciphering, there's not a critical need for God in the big stuff at least. And people tend to be driven by the big stuff, even if it's not as big as they feel it is (Halo effect, availability, other psychological factors coming into play).
Perhaps God doesn't die, but just fades out due to not enough Likes or even Web hits. I'm sure another social media site or similar phenomenon will rise in his place. After all, if s/he didn't exist, we'd be forced to create her. And we're always creating new monsters and bright shiny things.
Oh, and much religion and philosophy comes out of boredom - people with a lot of time and room to think and *an absence of explanation and recourse to possible solutions/answers/explanations*. Those conditions seem in short supply these days (while tech & fitness & other activities fill part of that religious void & longing & inquisitiveness and loneliness), though maybe when the robots come we'll get a new religious fervor. Perhaps the first robot messiah?
Paper books may never die, but there's good reason to believe the balance is already shifting to digital format and that our consumption of novels per capital is much lower than pre-TV times. Religion largely existed from oral traditions, when ritual took the place of just a few forms of social entertainment (plays, small minstrel acts...). In the 1960's/70's, music with lyrics largely put poetry to death and became a major source for transmitting ideas and received wisdom. This role of ideas in music has faded greatly since say 1989-1992 (when subversive music helped The Wall/Soviet Union fall) and instead it's fallen into a more routine dance/entertainment role bolstered with social media gossip, including related non-music fashion entertainment like the Kardashians. It begs the question whether starting a religion was much harder in the old days, or whether the level of commitment in these modern pseudo-religions is simply so much lower that they're not comparable. Still, they seem to serve many of the same functions.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 7:35am
Good discussion. I accept the Guardian's numbers of course but I'm not convinced they bespeak a true movement away from superstition or as the Guardian calls it "determined credulity" and towards an evidence-based secular mindset. Those who aren't members of any particular church may consult astrologers, make decisions based on biorhythms, or have had close encounters with aliens. Others may attend non-denominational religious services or become involved in right-wing hate cults. An all-encompassing faith in the magic of an unregulated marketplace to distribute goods and services could be considered a cult-like belief.
RMRD's lament that black churches, like many faith-based organizations, do much good work strikes me as pertinent. I know Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims who are members of churches, synagogues, and mosques because of the charitable works that they do. These individuals may doubt the sacred texts that form the underpinnings of the religion into which they were born or which they joined. But they want to feel part of a community - particularly one that provides direct assistance to others. To the extent that these folks are the ones leaving religious institutions, their reduced size doesn't doesn't reflect a reduced number of true believers.
by HSG on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 9:35am
What, exactly, is a true believer?
Edit to add:
The reason I ask is because there are debates that include whether a person could reject most of the Bible and still be considered a Christian if they followed the words of Jesus.
https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/27603/can-you-renounce-part-of-the-bible-and-still-be-a-christian
The Bible includes a book called Philemon. The story is about Paul encountering an escaped slave. Paul writes to the slave-owner telling the man that slavery (of a Christian) is wrong. Paul sends the slave back to hopefully be freed by the slave-owner. Many Africans held in slavery in the United States and being introduced to slavery thought the story was a lie made up by white men and refused to accept the book as truth.
Christians do cherry-pick. Murdering a disobedient child, for example, is rejected. Even true believers would reject that punishment.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 12:41pm
That one can't answer that is the reason for freedom of religion in this country.
I doubt that anyone who thinks it might be smart to stop giving tax deductibility to religious institutions is for outlawing religions in this country.
Apples and oranges.
The movement against Scientology in Germany is interesting in this regard. Especially as they had an "apples and oranges" problem with Nazism, where it was almost like a religion in some regards, they are wary of cultish religions. This is also why we don't outlaw things like white supremacist movements in this country, we outlaw illegal acts, not thoughts or beliefs or organizations.
Tax deductibility is showing preference, in effect, the public at large is actually deciding to give these organizations tax money! That there should be some rules for joining that club is not in conflict with freedom of religion.
by artappraiser on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 1:06pm
Well I always seem to get into trouble when providing definitions but for me a Christian "true believer" literally believes that Jesus is the son of God. A Jewish "true believer" literally believes God handed tablets to Moses. A Muslim "true believer" believes that Allah literally spoke to mankind through Muhammad.
by HSG on Tue, 01/02/2018 - 1:12pm