See even conservatives agree with Hal

By HSG on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 11:53am |

I suppose liberals who find my views distasteful if not worse would use the title See Hal is a Conservative.

URL:

https://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2017/09/14/ta-nehisi-coates-and-the-alternatives-to-despair/?mcubz=0&_r=0

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Try this: "Hillary ran a really bad campaign, not targeting concerns heartland whites had over jobs, the future and security"

"Trump really appealed to the divisive worry about "the other", evoking overpowering emotions about Muslims, immigrant Hispanics and inner-city blacks, drowning out most of Clinton's policy proposals and sidelining her experience".

Because whatever I hear, the racism was secondary - Hillary dug her own grave from the left and right; racism may be there but it was jobs and concerns about the economy that swayed the election. Which is why all these fake stories about hijabs abandoned in the desert by Muslim insurgents and the symbolism of that wall and how much a threat and stain BLM was.... the only real jobs-related bit I remember was twisting Hillary's coal speech. Sure, there was the fining offshorers and vacuous stuff about jobs multiplying like Jesus' loaves, but the pretty settled part of Making America Great Again was making it white again, with proper white values (Israel these days consideredd a white constituent, though Trump's anti-semitic symbolism barely salvaged & defanged by his son-in-law's Jewishness)

by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 1:07pm

HSG, which part of the article do you agree with?

The last paragraph in particular shows that Douthat isn't saying Coates is incorrect to point to the centrality of Racism in the emergence of Trump, he is saying that Coates' statement fails to address alternative politics at all.

by moat on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 1:51pm

Hal no one here, even those who disagree with you the most vehemently, thinks you're a conservative. We think you're a cult member. In fidelity to your dear leader you're unable to consider rationally and objectively neither the man nor his policies.

by ocean-kat on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 2:40pm

I think you could strike the "even" in your title for this crowd and replace it with "some"; it's often very clear that you share a lot of beliefs (if not all) with so-called paleoconservatives ala "pitchfork Pat Buchanan."

by artappraiser on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 3:05pm

Douthat....Hal...Blah blah....Trump has 3 objectives:

1. Openly agitate, exploit and expand the racism, ignorance, gullibility, xenophobia, hate and grievances of the long dog whistled bigots in the white GOP base.

2. Dupe an overlapping cohort of suckers with ludicrous promises to ensure white dominance, riches and prosperity beyond imagination. Know the media will go along for the rating$.

3. Loudly claim victory after victory, personally attack critics, dismiss reality as fake news, use the office to make as much money as you can while also cutting your taxes.

by NCD on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 4:11pm

A majority of whites elected Trump. Alabama elected Roy Moore. What divides America? White voters. Economics won't solve this. We are not post-racial. Ta-Nehishi Coates has no magic potion. Douhat wants blacks to shut up and sing. Democrats want blacks to shut up and vote. Coates helped the depression many blacks feel with "Between the World and Me". His new book " We Were Eight Years in Power" will provide further aid.

Hal, you will never understand, just like Douhat.

Alabama shows what divides the United States

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/opinion/sunday/alabama-moore-trump-di...

by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 8:13pm

RMRD - you apparently view the majority of Alabamians as unreachable "deplorables". Roy Moore's victory in the Republican primary is Exhibit A in your brief. Fine, this seems like a pretty good argument. But how do you square these deplorables with the three terms in the U.S. Senate that Democrat Howell Heflin won and served from 1979-1997.

From Wikipedia:

He voted against the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT), and attempts to weaken enforcement of consumer protection measures. He strongly supported affirmative action laws. He memorably voted against the nomination of Clarence Thomas to the United States Supreme Court, having complained of the nominee's lack of experience.

In 1993 Heflin gave a memorable speech on the Senate floor in support of Senator Carol Moseley Braun's successful effort to deny renewal of a Confederate Flag design patent for the United Daughters of the Confederacy. Heflin spoke of his pride and love for his Confederate ancestors, his respect for the United Daughters of the Confederacy, and his conflict in breaking with them over this issue. But, he said, 'we live in a nation that daily is trying to heal the scars that have occurred in the past. We're trying to heal problems that still show negative and ugly aspects in our world that we live in today, and perhaps racism is one of the great scars and one of the most serious illnesses that we suffer from still today."

by HSG on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 9:03pm

It is 2017, the country has gone crazy. Alabama is crazy. Moore pulled out a baby gun at one of his rallies. The country elected a racist. Trump has a hard time condemning white people who carry torches and threaten clergy and a synagogue. We are in dangerous times. You have to recognize the threat.

A gesture meant to protest police brutality has been transformed to something unpatriotic. Black athletes are uppity. A mayor asking for aid for her devastated island is transformed into an ungrateful female dog. Instead of dealing with the current clear and present danger, you want to divert with "what about the dead guy Heflin". Roy Moore is as insane as Trump and he will be in the Senate. Do you see any Republicans ( except Kasich) criticizing Moore? Republicans will fall in line with the insanity of Trump and Moore because their political base is racist, bigoted, and has no common sense. We have to acknowledge what we face across the aisle. The Republican base wants their country back even if they become poor getting it back. This is not about economics. It's about race.

I shouldn't have to say this, but let me repeat, I am not talking about all whites. But a majority out Trump and Moore in office. As many as 10% of blacks are Republican. Ben Carson, Omarosa, Herman Cain, Dennard Paris, Clarence Thomas will gleefully attack blacks and turn their backs to racist acts by Trump. There were black "Evangelicals" on the stage shaking Moore's hand. We have to call crazy by its name. Heflin does not speak for Alabama in 2017. We got a whole state of deplorables.

by rmrd0000 on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 10:05pm

Yes. Folks are voting differently now. What's changed?

by HSG on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 3:39am

Whites are convinced they are losing. They take out their frustration by attacking minorities and immigrants. Trump voters would rather hold on to the pride they gain from seeing others suffer than actually gaining wealth. Fox, Limbaugh, et. al. have become part of the normal culture and feed raw meat to society. O'Rielly was complicit in the murder of an abortion provider. Hannity scares people with talk of the dark state. When black activists in Baltimore noted posts about protests done in the name of police abuse, they contacted the organizers to get in formation. The black activists were suspicious of Blacktivist. When stories about Hillary running a child porn ring in a pizza parlor were put out, a white guy with a rifle showed up to shoot up the place. Every working class group, except whites, voted for the Democrat. It is not economics. It has become about race.

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 8:11am

Many whites have been losing ground or treading water since the 1970s because of policies - trade deals, repealing Glass-Steagall, big bank bailout, welfare reform - that Dems, no less than Repubs, have supported.

Look at Heflin's record. He supported populist economics - opposed NAFTA, GATT. Being from Alabama, he also opposed choice and gun control but he was progressive on race. Having Heflin in the Senate was yuge for Clinton and the reproductive rights movement because he voted to confirm pro-choice Justices Breyer and Ginsberg even though he also voted for restrictions on the floor of the Senate.

by HSG on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 8:42am

Hal. blacks should not have to depend on the economic situation of whites to be equal. You cannot understand this simple concept. You divert the discussion from the racism that causes the backlash. Trump is insane. The GOP just killed health insurance for children, This is not "both sides do it".

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 8:48am

Shouldda, wouldda, couldda. I agree. The anxiety-ridden, despised, and newly impoverished should train their righteous anger against the elites who are profiting from their misery rather than scapegoating those who are poorer and less powerful.

by HSG on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 9:04am

So they are racist.

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 9:09am

Yes, that is part of who many are.

by HSG on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 9:10am

It is in these two paragraphs of Douthat's column where he finds himself in agreement with me:

Postwar America is actually a logical example for the “racism feeds off other grievances and problems” argument, because the long period of economic growth and low unemployment that ran from the late ’40s to the late ’60s was also the era that saw the most rapid legal progress for blacks since Reconstruction. America entered the postwar era as a “violently segregated” country, yes, but in terms of racial progress and expanded civl rights the era was a time of sweeping gains, not successful racial backlash — and backlash politics only really gathered steam as the postwar boom gave way to a period of economic stagnation and social disarray.

Indeed, the racial progress in the postwar era offers grist for almost all the different, non-despairing theories that Coates wants to dismiss. For left-populists in the style of Sanders, it suggests that super-high taxes and broadly-shared prosperity can create the preconditions for successful appeals for racial justice. For self-styled Rooseveltian liberals like Lilla, it suggests that government by a consensus-minded and patriotic liberalism (or Rockefeller Republicanism) is entirely compatible with major gains for the marginalized and mistreated.

by HSG on Sun, 10/01/2017 - 8:53pm

Hal, the response to blacks getting a Freedman's Bank, economic independence (Tulsa, Oklahoma and Rosewood, Florida as examples) was direct attacks on those black communities. This was followed by lynchings and Jim Crow. When blacks gained seats in Congress, their was pushback after eight years. We are seeing the white pushback after eight years of Obama. You are blind to history and blind to the present. Whites will always feel that blacks have made too much economic progress. Your own snippet above notes white backlash against blacks when whites feel stressed. Attacking blacks under those circumstances is a racist act. There will always be economic downturns. Racism fuels the white response.

Edit to add:

Trump dedicated a golf trophy to Puerto Rico. He is insane. He sftill has white support.

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 8:33am

The white backlash from the 1970s until now has occurred during a 40+ year period when economic conditions worsened for all but the wealthiest have either stagnated or worsened. You are correct when you note that I am not an expert on Reconstruction and 19th century Jim Crow laws. But it is my understanding that race relations over that period were at least somewhat correlated to the economic conditions of the working class.

Many members of the white working class support Trump because 1) policies supported by Democrats, no less than Republicans, have harmed them economically, 2) they sense only disdain and condescension from Democrats, 3) Trump appeals to their innate prejudices and biases.

You have argued that Bernie Sanders has no answers to the appeal that Republicans have to white working-class Americans or to help African-Americans. In fact, if this analysis is correct, he has the answer to both.

by HSG on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 8:59am

But it is my understanding that race relations over that period were at least somewhat correlated to the economic conditions of the working class

Sheesh

Jim Crow occurred as whites benefited from the GI Bill and the historic growth in the white middle class

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 9:04am

That's when Jim Crow was defeated.

by HSG on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 9:05am

We now face the pushback. You want blacks to be happy with crumbs given out when whites feel they are doing well.

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 9:16am

The pushback is occurring when federal and state government - whether controlled by Democrats or Republicans - has been doing far less to reduce wealth and income inequality.

What have I written that causes you to believe that I "want blacks to be happy with crumbs given out when whites feel they are doing well."

by HSG on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 9:54am

Economic downturns occur. Whites respond to downturns by attacking black advances. Name a country where there has not been an economic downturn. Racist whites will use economic stress to do things like lynchings, Jim Crow, police abuse, and voter suppression. Your economics approach is a bandage for the real problem. Without dealing with race, blacks will always be at risk for white backlash.

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 10:00am

Of course we should deal with race. I have never suggested otherwise. In fact, I have always said we must focus on both economic and racial justice. When economic downturns inevitably occur, if the government commits to making sure the less affluent suffer the least, any rise in racism is very likely to be muted.

---------------

In order to regain power, therefore, Democrats must continually stress the commonality of interests between the white working-class and voters of color. They must also recognize that the latter along with women and those whose sexuality falls outside of the heteronormative have struggles that are distinct from those of poor and working-class whites. But they must do so in a way that does not diminish the outsize role that class and wealth at birth play in determining one’s future. http://halginsberg.com/fusing-group-identity-and-class-based-politics/ (2017)

---------------

Clinton’s backers frequently argue that Bernie’s focus on economic injustice bespoke an indifference to racism and sexism. Bernie’s supporters acknowledge that Bernie didn’t build sufficient trust within African-American communities to persuade black voters to forsake the more familiar Clintons. Nevertheless, progressive Democrats contend that Clinton’s dependence, and the dependence of many other Democrats, on corporate financing to underwrite campaigns means they can never be true allies in the fight for economic and social justice. http://halginsberg.com/bernie-versus-hillary-redux-or-the-war-for-the-de... (2017)

--------------

With President Lyndon Johnson’s commitment to passing the Voting Rights Act and the broad range of social programs known as the Great Society, including Medicare, Medicaid, the Fair Housing Act, and other laws, American liberalism reached its apotheosis. http://halginsberg.com/elizabeth-warrens-history-lesson/ (2015)

--------------

race-neutral redistributive economic policies designed to improve the condition of working-class Americans coupled with civil rights legislation led to better living conditions for non-affluent whites and blacks with a reduction in wealth and income disparities. http://halginsberg.com/bernie-sanders-ran-on-an-anti-racist-platform/ (2016)

--------------

So I have a long and strong record of stressing the importance of both race and economic inequality. When have you ever written about the need to address economic inequality which disproportionately harms African-Americans?

by HSG on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 11:22am

You are trapped. Whites like those who voted for Trump do not want race-neutral plans, they want plans that exclude blacks. Call me when you get those white voters to change.

Edit to add:

You admit that Sanders did not appeal to black voters, yet you are incapable of listening to what black voters are saying about our current situation. You repeat the same crap and expect blacks to fall in line. You simply don't listen. Warren and Harris would trounce the elderly Sanders in 2020.

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 1:24pm

Jim Crow was defeated I'd guess with the Voting Rights Act in 1965 a bit later than that greatest generation middle class bump over the prior 20 years. And of course the famous Florida voter rolls disenfrancisement of 2000 came at the tail of the Clinton boom years. Really, white well-being and acting shitty to blacks aren't connected by any logical economic factors.

by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 10:53am

He has to force his economic view to fit even when there is a large disconnect. This really explains why Sanders had little appeal for blacks. Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris seem more reality based.

by rmrd0000 on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 11:20am

Hal, were you in a coma in the 90's or not born yet?

by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 10:52am

HSG, your quote of Douthat clipped the last part of the paragraph where he included his own view that economic determinism was not adequate for the job of addressing inequality. That cutting off makes sense in terms of you deciding where his agreement with you ended. It does have me thinking that the list of alternatives is longer than what Douthat included. I will mull that for a bit.
It is interesting how Douthat does not call out Sanders as a social engineer in the business of shaping markets. He only refers to the call to redistribute wealth. Now that oversight could be Douthat just being a conservative. Or maybe he is saying that there is a disconnect between the concept of influencing markets and economic determinism. Maybe they are not what they are a priori but mixed up with other objectives and conflicts.

by moat on Mon, 10/02/2017 - 7:17pm

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