MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Fascinating.
Comments
Distressing revelations, as this means we could have extradited him. If he was already in custody, this was like Obama ordering that a convict in an American prison be liquidated.
Still, there is a limit to how indignant I can get about the murder of a mass murderer. I don't approve, but it isn't the worst thing the U.S. government has ever done.
by Aaron Carine on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 9:40am
What I find curious about this is the almost immediate flurry of stories meant to undercut the credibility of Hersh's reporting. Almost simultaneously with the headline of the story was the additional sidebar that some publications had turned the story down, raising doubts about its veracity. As the story began to spread, the counter-narrative that Seymour Hersh was easily manipulated or naive began to pop up everywhere. Quotes from out of the woodwork suggesting Hersh's credibility has always been suspect, etc. When Hersh was writing things about the Iraq war's early days, no-one questioned his journalistic chops. Was he deluded all along or have we been played for suckers all along ... or both?
by MrSmith1 on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 12:22pm
The NYT article on Hersh's report linked a column from 2011 that recounted the same scenario. In doing so, the NYT was not one to undercut the story, the reporter also quoted Hersh: “Those are classic nondenial denials,” he said, before rushing off to take a call from another reporter.
The most convincing thing in the Hersh account is that the Seals waited around for another helicopter while the damaged one was smoking or burning. As Hersh says, no way would they wait around in potentially hostile territory, they would toss heavy gear, pile in, and high tail it out on one chopper.
Since no movie will ever be made of what seems the real event, the revelations are a non-event. There have been worse lies told, esp. almost every day from 2000-2008.
by NCD on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 3:11pm
I chalk it down to cognitive dissonance. A renowned journalist publishes a piece in the London Review of Books that sounds like something from some right-wing conspiracy rag. If you don't buy the story, then you're forced to reassess your opinion of the journalist.
Personally, I'm not ruling out the story, but I'm concerned that Hersh has put everything on that retired official. Despite Hersh's claim to have corroborating sources, that official seems to be the only one who knows the whole saga and seemingly every detail. Without him, there's no story.
My question, why would such a well-connected spook risk all to go public? How many retired officials know everything that he claims to know? It couldn't be too hard for the CIA figure it out. Why does this guy risk prison and flout an entire career of secrecy? There's no financial angle, no election to influence, no heinous civilian massacre to expose. It just smells fishy.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 3:28pm
Odd, why hasn't Josh Marshall even mentioned this story?
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 3:31pm
MW- Josh is an inside the beltway guy who doesn't touch this sort of serious foreign policy/war expose/story, he sticks to the more inter-political stuff in America and usually GOP hypocrisy.
BTW "something from some right-wing conspiracy rag" would be more like:
Hersh had multiple sources including a Pak General, retired, who had already talked to al Jazeera, other US sources were retired or consultants, some of these guys love to talk apparently.
The main reason the right wing wouldn't touch this story:
1) They don't want to open anything to do with the Saudi/Pak can of worms, the GOP is tight with the King and have had at least as many dirty Saudi/Pak deals as Obama.
2) Nobody denies bin Laden is dead, and the GOP wants people to forget a Democrat got him.
3). The modus operandi of how we got him is irrelevant except for people like Hersh, or people who would read a 10,000 word essay, which is not a voter bloc the GOP seeks to exploit for votes.
by NCD on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 7:59pm
Yes, Hersh corroborated some parts with other sources, but both the big picture and all the juicy details came from one guy.
Sure, this isn't Josh's beat, but it's way too big a story for TPM to ignore. Weird. Maybe he's waiting to see how it pans out.
PS It was a loose analogy, no need to press it.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 9:10pm
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 7:23pm
Very interesting, especially since the NYT's main story today was so skeptical. Here's the link to Gall's piece for anyone else who wants to read it: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/magazine/the-detail-in-seymour-hershs-...
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 9:11pm
Correction: The WaPo had released the name of the Pakistani intelligence officer suspected of informing on Osama's location in 2012. A physician who conducted a fake polio campaign to help flush out Osama's location was also named. I wonder if this information, whether correct or not, places their lives in danger? Will it have any impact on others who might provide useful intelligence that comes with high personal risk? Perhaps the pushback on Hersh is part of a need to protect sources. Should the U.S. Confirm that they had a Pakistani source.
(Corrected to note that the link was referring to the 2022 WaPo article).
http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-317717-Brig-Usman-Khalid-informe...
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 9:56pm
I think it's obvious that the U.S. had Pakistani sources, and I find it totally plausible that officials used a cover story to protect them. That wouldn't be shocking. I think it's also likely that ISI knew Bin Laden's whereabouts. What's shocking is Hersh's allegation that the U.S. cut a deal with ISI, that the entire raid was essentially staged, and that Bin Laden was deliberately assassinated.
As for the polio doctor, Shakil Afridi, Hersh presents him as a fall guy, deliberately set up by the CIA to protect another source. In some ways, this shocks me more than anything else. All the other alleged crimes are essentially victimless (except Bin Laden but no sympathy there). But if the article is right, Afridi was an innocent victim.
by Michael Wolraich on Tue, 05/12/2015 - 11:31pm
This theory fails for the same reason most conspiracy theories fail. There are just too many people involved that would have to keep the secret for it to succeed in the first place and too many to keep it secret afterwards. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. But the most damning rebuttal I've read claims that while the deal to give over Bin Laden was for increased aid to Pakistan actually the aid decreased after the raid. Somehow all the parties were so competent they were able to pull off this fraud yet lacked the competence to follow though on the deal. It all seems unlikely to me.
by ocean-kat on Wed, 05/13/2015 - 5:45pm
The word "conspiracy" has become a parlor trick that distracts from actually analyzing situations.
Of course our attempts to catch Osama bin Laden would be an official conspiracy to weed out some clue from somewhere - human intelligence or satellite/drone surveillance or some collaborator/turncoat somewhere or the load of torture-for-revelations or ...
There's little doubt that US government & US military would embellish or distort the conditions of OBL's capture & killing - like with Pat Tillman or Jessica Lynch or anything else (Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen...) - so it's more a matter of objectively evaluating and deciding which details from USG or Hersh or elsewhere seem believable and why.
Our whole training program in Iraq & Afghanistan was a fiasco that still managed to bolster the career of Petraeus until he self-destructed. That "conspiracy" is in plain sight, but only a few hippie bloggers see it or care, while everyone else is invested in the notion that the surge worked and they stood up while we stood down - even though civilian death rates remain consistently horrid and the local police forces remain ineffective. But a storyline has been created, and that's what will stay, whatever new facts appear.
That doesn't mean any new storylines are true - only that first-mover advantage is completely effective and extremely difficult to counter. You don't have to pay people to keep quiet or go along - they just naturally do - hear a story & if it sounds convincing enough, you pass it along. By day 3, the OBL story was cemented in our brains in full detail, whether exaggerated or not. It's also why the Republicans set out to put doubt about Benghazi from day 1 - no matter what Susan Rice had actually said in public, they simply said she hadn't said it and built their counter hyped conspiracy story from there. And for a lot of the populace, that's the storyline they believe. Lather, rinse, repeat.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 05/14/2015 - 5:26am
Ocean-K ":..most damning rebuttal I've read claims that while the deal to give over Bin Laden was for increased aid to Pakistan actually the aid decreased after the raid...."
Call that the "the Pakistan accounting fantasy theory"
The Premise:
by NCD on Thu, 05/14/2015 - 11:36am