MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
'After the rally touting Trump's 100 days, there will be a press conference touting the rally, followed by a tweet touting the press conference, followed by more rallies, press conferences, and tweets.....Just Trump's rallies, press conferences, tweets and so on about himself with 59 missiles and a big bomb thrown in for effect.'
Comments
Meanwhile Trump is seen as more in touch with people's concerns than the GOP and the Democrats. And the Democrats more out of touch than the GOP. Great.
http://www.langerresearch.com/wp-content/uploads/1186a1Trump100Days.pdf
by Obey on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 3:25pm
The vox populi is inevitably mysterious, immutable or quickly reversing, seemingly irrational and always inscrutable. Easily manipulated by media and many factors.
I pay more attention to knowledge surveys, like an Annenberg one that only 36% of American voters could name the 3 branches of our government.
Another a few years ago where the % who knew which Party controlled Congress, House and Senate, was only slightly above random coin flipping. A population that uneducated, unconcerned or uninterested in their government is what gave us Trump.
by NCD on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 3:51pm
That's the spirit. Show disdain and contempt for the electorate and then get pretend to be shocked when they don't vote for the Dems.
by Obey on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 3:54pm
There's two sides to the coin, the policy and how democrats sell that policy. I mostly aligned with the democrats policy but I don't have a clue how to sell that policy to the ignorant rubes. The latter is mostly in the hands of the democratic politicians, but one thing I'm pretty sure of, my calling them ignorant rubes isn't a factor in their decision to vote Trump or republican. After being called unpatriotic, libtard, and unamerican by the right for decades I don't feel any qualms about calling the moronic uneducated Trump voters ignorant rubes. And I don't think the right calling us nasty names is a factor in democrats not voting for republicans. Frankly I'm tired of democrats telling other democrats we have to be nice and understanding to the shit heads who voted for Trump.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 4:19pm
I agree with your comment. I go further, I've always thought that liberal comments on blogs that are insulting or dismissive about the electorate have contributed a great deal to Democratic losses. Especially the humorless type of comment. People might not participate, but they do surf around blogs, see that stuff, enough to get confirmation bias about liberals. I'm not suggesting people should self-censor if they are angry about a certain segment of the electorate, but only that they should have recognition about the consequences of their speech.
by artappraiser on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 4:34pm
Right. I'd take it beyond the blogs. Also the Daily Show field reports in Appalachia or down south would just turn me off. Colbert himself said that to do them well you had to leave your conscience at the door. Meaning you are humiliating these people, find the worst idiot with the dumbest ideas in town and then broadcast that poor moron as representative of everyone's views. Sure, there'll be a kernel of truth to the reports, but also demonstrably a great sense of disdain for these places. For political liberal late-night, they just exist to be laughed at. There is no attempt to open any dialogue or create any understanding. It is about shutting doors rather than opening them. And when you see your people portrayed that way by these programs, how can you believe that they, and their liberal audiences, give a crap about you and your poverty and your destroyed communities, etc.
by Obey on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 4:46pm
I used to have a number of fights on how we portrayed/stereotyped everyone from the South, and dismissed ti as a wasteland we could never tackle or want to. Of course there are a ton of liberals in the South, even though there are 3 tons of conservatives - and all the migration to the Sun Belt has loosened some things, but certainly not everything - so are we willing to codify failure, or should we work with challenges and try to overcome them?
That said, it's pretty shocking that for example Trump got 53+% or so of white women and a not insignificant portion of the Hispanic vote, despite all his crazy talk about walls and disrespect towards women. THat's not finding the "worst idiot with the dumbest ideas" - that's just picking out the average. Yeah, nice not to demonize, but traditional engagement techniques and "educating your audience" may not move so well or work so fast. I've talked to a million people who disagreed with me, and it's seldom clear what the route to persuasion is, despite having a nice beer and a few back slaps - it just makes me the crazy kinda smart, slightly deluded liberal who's nice to have a beer with.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 5:22pm
The right has a whole machine designed to do nothing but insult the democrats. I've read a couple of Coulter books and I don't think she has anything to offer to the conversation. Her whole schtick is to insult democrats in ways much more nasty than any democrat might and her readers love her for it. Now you're telling me that the same people who revel in those insults against us don't vote for us because we sometimes insult them. Bullshit. Coulter isn't alone. There's a dozen who make millions off that game. I read the right wing press and vile insults of liberals and democrats are rampant. We're expected to just eat that shit, no one on the right is suggesting they need to tone it down, but when any liberal says anything that's not empathetic, compassionate or understanding liberals like you and all those Trump supporters run to the fainting couch. Fuck that game, I want no part in it. I"ll speak my mind and if they find it insulting they'll just have to deal with it same as anyone else.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 7:52pm
Your disagreement duly noted. I'd just add that I think there are other options beyond eating shit and stooping to Coulter-level shit slinging. Not every choice is binary.
by Obey on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 9:32am
Bill O Reilly's ratings increased after his sexual assault charges. The Right feels that they can dictate Liberals about morality. They are hypocrites.The majority of Trump voters have no regrets about their vote. 73% of Republicans are ready to blame Democrats for Trump's incompetence.How exactly do you reach out to Trump voters?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 9:49am
Good question; worth pondering.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 10:50am
I have repeatedly equated Trump's 40% support base with the white Southerners who supported Jim Crow. Once Democrats supported Civil Rights, there was nothing to be done to regain those voters. I think the current situation between Democrats and some white voters is the same. There is no argument that can bring Trump voters back into the Democratic fold. When black voters hear about Democratic outreach to Trump voters, they see the bus headed towards them full speed. I noted that Krystal Balls new book "Reversing the Apocalypse: Hijacking the Democratic Party to Save the World" is a guide book for throwing blacks under the bus. When Democrat's talk about reaching out to Trump supporters, they turn a blind eye to the racism that formed the basis of the vote for Trump.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 12:08pm
Not sure what others are talking about, but personally I am talking about trying to rebuild the Obama coalition. Based on analyses like Nate Cohn's:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/23/upshot/how-the-obama-coalition-crumbled-leaving-an-opening-for-trump.html
Maybe this view of the numbers is outdated, but if not I'm really not understanding your worry about throwing blacks under the bus.
by Obey on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 12:51pm
The way I understand it is that those that voted for both Obama and Trump are now revealed to be racists and we don't want them anymore?
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 12:55pm
AA, chasing Trump voters is a snipe hunt. Racism, authoritarianism, and white supremacy played a major role in their votes. I provided links to support my argument. Democrats would have a better chance chasing the Progressives who voted for 3rd parties and addressing voter suppression
http://www.salon.com/2017/02/23/can-we-finally-ditch-the-white-working-c...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/opinion/move-left-democrats.html
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 1:09pm
are those people in the (gerrymandered) districts that will help you win either the presidency or more seats in Congress?
Edit to add: have you studied how Obama won? What is the reason he didn't want his "cling to their bibles and guns" speech made public?
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 2:20pm
My thesis is that the voters you want to chase are not coming back to the party.
Young white Liberals broke more for third parties than in the past. The numbers of third party voters were higher than Trump's margin of victory
https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/12/it-wasnt-the-white-workin...
For the Presidential race, Clinton needed all the Democrats she could muster to win.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/12/hillary-clintons-su...
Trump voters turned out in communities that voted against Obama twice to impact the state elections.
You are not going to win the racists in the Trump counties. Hillary outperformed Obama in 50% of counties that voted for Obama.
Ridicule the impact of race all you want. Show me your plan to turn Republican counties Democratic.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 2:50pm
I'll give you that you're right they are not coming "back to the party". That's why they are called "Independents", as in: one has to enough of the Independent vote now to win in this country.
(I happen to be one of them since 1980. Not that I've ever voted for a Republican for national office, but I have on other levels. Independents range across the liberal to conservative spectrum. Just occurred to me now that what they might have in common is that they loathe identity politics, hence "independent". Myself, I am a sucker for the "I am an American" commercials from post 9/11. )
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 5:16pm
Why is rejecting police abuse and voter suppression "identity politics"? Why is observing the reality of the impact of race on voting patterns "identity politics"?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 5:19pm
I don't know what straw man you are talking to. Maybe you think you're talking to Bernie, you're not. Bernie is not the one in charge of defining all Independents, because: they are independent.. Don't vote as a "community" bloc.
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 5:32pm
See below
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 5:47pm
Regarding the bus, maybe you missed arguments about letting the racists into the party.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 1:10pm
Sanders supporters see nothing wrong with mentions of moving away from " identity politics", but black voters see the wheels of the bus.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 2:05pm
I see your points, but aren't there shades or divisions within "the Trump voter" group?
I constantly hear about people who voted for Obama at least once, but this time went for Trump.
Maybe these folks were only one-time (2008) Obama voters and turned away once he got wiser to his opposition (and acted "blacker").
Honestly, I don't know, but I think it's unlikely that the Trump voting bloc is monolithic. If nothing else, those folks in the upper industrial states--the so-called blue line or wall--were reliable Democratic voters until 2016. At least that's what we're told.
To me, "a reliable Democratic voter" means someone who voted for Obama twice and the for the Democrat against Bush II and for Bill before that.
But this is just me spit balling. One would need to look a polling, numbers, demographics to come up with a usable answer.
Pulling back a bit...
A Republican election lawyer once talked to me about the Republican coalition. Prior to Reagan, it consisted of the business establishment and libertarians. That gave them 40% of the electorate and thus a permanent minority. Once they added the evangelicals to the coalition, they had enough people to win. And the evangelicals had a lot of energy for getting out the vote, so they were an especially good add.
My point is this: No one wins in America without large, and therefore unstable, coalitions that of groups with opposing interests. My sense is that Obama held his coalition together through the sheer force of his unique appeal, personalilty, and abilities. He's admitted that he wasn't able to pass on his secret sauce to other Democrats. He tried, and even when they tried, they came up short.
All this said, I DO think the Democrats owe blacks an enormous debt. Without the black vote, there would be no Democratic Party, at least as we know it today. If you've ever read the economist Glenn Loury (worthwhile, IMO), he and Adolph Reed make a convincing case that the Democrats haven't done nearly enough for black people. They make it sound like Democrats have done nothing for blacks--I disagree, but they should do more.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 3:57pm
Southern voters were reliable Democratic voters until LBJ. Why did Southern voters switch? A larger percentage of black voters supported Republicans until Barry Goldwater. Why did blacks switch? Dramatic changes in voting patterns in a short period of time are not unusual.
Edit to add:
I stand corrected here is the dramatic impact of a JFK speech about Civil Rights
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/11/why-did-democrats-lose-whi...
2nd Edit to add:
The story of the exodus of blacks from the GOP
http://www.npr.org/2016/08/25/491389942/when-african-american-voters-shi...
Race is the spark for the changes.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 4:34pm
O-K, Coulter's insults are very strategic. She and other Republican attack dog castigate liberals in order to attract and mobilize conservatives. Many of today's Republicans are former Democrats who either never identified or stopped identifying as liberal, so the attacks against "liberal elites" resonates with them and drives them rightward.
When liberals insult conservatives, it's usually less strategic. You can parse it as finely as you like, but when liberals castigate "ignorant" or "stupid" conservatives, the message people hear is "dumb redneck." That doesn't tend to attract or mobilize voters. Worse, it alienates people who might be tempted to vote for progressive causes and plays into the right-wing populist strategy.
by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 11:22am
Race did play a large role in the vote
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/10/15/13286498/donald-trump-...
Edit to add:
Another analysis on the impact of race from the WaPo
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/04/17/racism-mot...
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 12:11pm
Noting surveys of voter knowledge about the operation of their government is not 'disdain and contempt.'
It's the real world, and the Republicans exploit it with great success.
Dems need to get educate people to make the best decisions, not pander to them with patronizing elitism.
by NCD on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 5:13pm
But let's dig down a bit and talk about what the contempt is over and how it's expressed.
Do you express support for positions with which you disagree? Do you say that X is something about which reasonable people can disagree? Do you disagree vehemently, but refrain from calling them your opponents "stupid"? Do you work to find places where there's common ground?
I'm wondering whether it's the rhetoric that offends or the positions themselves. Or the conflicts and controversies that draw the most attention. For example, the registrar who wouldn't issue licenses to gay peoples who became a martyr to the cause. Or the bathroom ruling for the school in NC?
On the one hand, it seems that these flare-ups affect very few people relatively speaking. On the other hand, if you're one of the few, and you're being denied your rights, then it's the world. But maybe the art would be to keep the issue local--not make a "federal case" out of it and draw the whole country into it--but still press the case at the local level and escalate it to higher courts as need be.
If I'm not mistaken, the real problem for the Trump voter was when the federal government issued guidelines for bathroom use. Once the whole country is involved, and presidential candidates come streaming into obscure little towns to "support" the maligned registrar, then liberals and the Democrat party become unduly tagged with it. I mean, it IS an position liberals should support; the question is, how.
Once the weight of the government and the Democratic Party come down in support of certain positions that are challenging to explain...and end up calling their opponents bigots and racists as a result of their opposition or even lack of support for those positions...then it's easy for the Democrats to be labeled as condescending and out of touch with "regular people."
If you're in the vanguard of the people on issue X, then you have to take care to bring people along with you, even as you keep pressing. And you have to know how to horse trade. FDR soft soaped the racists in his party in exchange for their support for radical social programs. He didn't call them dumb hicks (that I know of) for opposing Social Security and supporting segregation; nor did he have to argue for segregation; he bargained with them to move the ball forward.
The act of negotiating and compromising to get something you want in exchange may be a way to show respect for your opponent's position without openly supporting it. I don't think Obama was very good at it and could've been helped enormously if Teddy had lived to help him. He knew how to get things out of his opponents.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 6:06pm
Good points. My general principle would be to punch up not down. Throw all the insults you want at GOP leadership or GOP media surrogates or money people. You can't blame people for not hearing Liberal policy messaging if the Democratic party is at best ignoring them or worse just maligning them as degenerates unworthy of attention.
by Obey on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 9:54am
"You can't blame people for not hearing Liberal policy messaging if the Democratic party...blah blah"
One 'liberal' is enough to make you the bad guy/outsider and the policy a non-starter according to the propaganda of the right wing hate/echo chamber mentioned by OK.
An Insider's View: The Dark Rigidity of Fundamentalist Rural America
Note the 'education problem'. I would add science as part of education. It can be ignored. The Catholic Church recognizes climate change and evolution but not the fundamentalist 'Christian' right wing.
Its why Betsy DeVos and the GOP want to defund, fragment and replace 'government schools' with unaccountable charters and home schools. And in history why slave owners prohibited slaves from learning to read.
by NCD on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 10:52am
he knows how to make it look like he's doing something, you have to give him that, it's the TV training, I think. It's basically the Mr. Deeds Goes To Washington model, but the guy is not just a congressperson but the president, stymied by the swamp. He just says he's doing stuff, the faithful hear that spin, don't read for whatever reason (maybe they just don't have time) like the NYTimes or WaPo or Politico reporting that his staff are saying "say what? that's news to us!". Then later he complains that the swamp stymied his plans. This is why the tweeting is so important, he can just make stuff up for the supportive.
How a billionaire scammer type gets people to believe he's stand-in for the ordinary citizen type in the swamp, Mr. Deeds style, that's where his real only talent lies.The more manic the better, actually, looks like he's trying real hard the more he dominates the news cycle, Because most people don't or can't dig into what's actually going on, they just hear Trump, Trump, Trump all day every day. Sounds like he's fighting for them.
by artappraiser on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 4:59pm
Agree 100%.
At some point, though, the rubber meets the road. Good things happen that people experience, or they don't.
As long as it's just WaPo's word against Trump's, and it's still early days, then Trump is believed.
He can be oblivious to the truth because, in most case, the truth comprises events the people don't experience in their own lives.
by Peter Schwartz on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 4:36pm
Lol. Exactly. But shouting alot counts as doing stuff in a way. He said he was going to go to Washington and stick it to the elites, and every time the media types tut at his tweets and his ties and his crappy suits and lousy spelling, that's confirmation enough for the rubes that he's a standin for them. In my mind he has decades of history with them, rolling around on the WWE stage for years for their entertainment. Before even the Apprentice stuff. Every day he is in the news for some new dust-up. For someone outside, it seems like something is happening in Washington, and something is better than nothing for many of them.
This last move, doing a Rally while the elites are schmoozing in tuxes and ballgowns, is just too easy a slam-dunk. Who comes out of this looking better? Snarky democrats swishing cocktails or the guy out there on the stump with the plebs?
by Obey on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 4:39pm
rolling around on the WWE stage for years for their entertainment.
Excellent point, I forgot about all that! He's been working at building up working class creds for a long time. He likes it, that's him letting go.
Not to mention, his taste in cars, decorating, how the opposite sex presents, etc. as a wealthy man has always been that which many would chose if they won the lotto. And comes to mind he's always been enthusiastic and proud about that.
Born and bred in Queens, despite the private military school experience. It really is the striver's and climber's borough of NYC. (Staten Island, reliably Republican, is more far right and just plain bizarre, Queens would be independent land.)
by artappraiser on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 4:57pm
It's always confused me. Not how white working class people can identify with him, see him as a kindred spirit, but rather how he can look so convincingly like a construction worker who was dragged off the site yesterday and told to dress up in expensive suits and pretend to be rich for a day. He looks unbelievably uncomfortable with money for someone born into it, and paranoid like he is afraid someone will realize it isn't his money at all. The way he squints like he is wondering if the smart prick speaking next to him is secretly talking down to him. The way he will bluster but then turn beta the second he is faced with an actual smart man with power. His lack of rock-bottom-basic etiquette.
The most amazing thing that has happened since January for me remains the non-hand shake with Merkel. I've never seen that in my life, maybe once with my 3 year old nephew on a bad hair day. Not that I associate good manners with money, but just the acquired acceptance of ceremonial going-through-the-motions no matter what you think of the person on the other side of the table. Maybe that's just me.
Just realized why Alec Baldwin's version of Trump just doesn't click for me. It's the permanent discomfort so palpable with Trump that doesn't come through. An illustration, my second most unreal moment at the 45 second mark:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_YQ_Dr7OMI
by Obey on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 10:22am
Might this not be the Canadian in you?
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 10:55am
Leaving his wife walking 20 paces behind is pretty incredible - he has to read the comments, yet he still does it.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 11:25am
I love your point about him switching back and forth between alpha and beta, very astute. Especially in context of the whole Merkel thing, as I just happened to be reading the transcript published today of his A.P. interview and it's clear that it is something that bothered him, he has thought on it, he brought it up and is trying to reverse the narrative!
I am probably farther out than you on Baldwin's parody, I think it is terrible, I don't even recognize Trump in what he does. It's more like what he is doing is making up a whole new character, a very simple boor or fool character, in order to tar him with that, rather than really catching the weird subtleties. I don't even recognize the facial expressions, those are not the Trump I see. Compared to like Will Ferrell's George Bush, it is just a pitiful parody or impersonation. Ferrell would take in the whole of the man, he really became him.
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 11:45am
I guess you miss the difficulty of parodying a man who's a complete parody of himself. Baldwin is simply doing a caricature - Ferrell was doing an imitation. Who would want to see Trump imitated? The 24x7's already irritating enough.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 11:58am
Now reconcile this comment with your comment further up - be nice to these people even though they're foolishly follwoing a fraudster spewing nonsense. It's a difficult position to pull off - Bill Clinton could do it, the rest of us mere mortals not so much.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 5:26pm
Oh I draw the line when the person they voted for is straight out lying to them on specific things he promised them.Shaming about being fooled is okay as in Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Where I don't think they should be ridiculed is in choosing to support those things he promised.
by artappraiser on Sun, 04/23/2017 - 6:58pm
I like Remnick's way with words on the 100 days:
and
and
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 9:57am
Very good points. But still, somehow, we haven't found a vaccine or an antibiotic to defeat or neutralize this man's craziness.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 10:52am
This is another good one, funny too:
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 11:18am
You betcha!
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 3:40pm
Highly, highly recommend Rick Perlstein's very long book, NixonLand, which he followed with an equally long book called, The Invisible Bridge.
You'll find yourself thinking that 2016 is basically a repeat of 1972 with just a few differences. All the issues just about and much of the rhetoric is exactly the same.
by Peter Schwartz on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 4:00pm
FYI Perlstein in NYT Magazine: I Thought I Understood the American Right.Trump Proved Me Wrong.
And a rejoinder by David Frum in The Atlantic
by Michael Wolraich on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 4:50pm
FYI Driftglass, who understands the right well and has for years had this to say about that piece by his friend Rick:
by NCD on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 5:28pm
For all the bobbing and weaving in his article, Frum doesn't actually provide an argument against Perlstein's assertion that the history of the Conservative movement must include their relationship with thuggery and the suppression of minorities.
Frum's matrix of Egalitarians = Nativists versus Elitists = Cosmopolitans does not recognize the importance of John Stuart Mills who argued that a Democratic Society was a polity that bound together diverse opinions and groups and not only the interests of the majority. Frum confines the meaning of "Liberals" to proponents for the redistribution of wealth. I prefer my Hayek straight with no chaser.
by moat on Wed, 04/26/2017 - 2:02pm
Response to AA from above
Blacks rationally vote for Democrats because the GOP has become a hostile force against the black community.
What is your definition of "identity politics"?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 5:50pm
Here is the tenor of the debate surrounding "identity politics"
Michael Eric Dyson in the NYT
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/opinion/sunday/what-donald-trump-d...
A response to Dyson
https://thewayofimprovement.com/2016/12/20/michael-eric-dyson-on-identit...
I don't understand why you are upset when I see loathing of "identity politics" as a bad thing.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 8:22pm
I guess I am basically with Lilla @
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opinion/sunday/the-end-of-identity-liberalism.html?_r=0
....But how should this diversity shape our politics? The standard liberal answer for nearly a generation now has been that we should become aware of and “celebrate” our differences. Which is a splendid principle of moral pedagogy — but disastrous as a foundation for democratic politics in our ideological age. In recent years American liberalism has slipped into a kind of moral panic about racial, gender and sexual identity that has distorted liberalism’s message and prevented it from becoming a unifying force capable of governing.....
...narcissistically unaware of conditions outside their self-defined groups, and indifferent to the task of reaching out to Americans in every walk of life.....
I'm really not interested in discussing it further with you, you clearly are not going to change your mind so that would be silly. I just wanted to express that there is at least one person here who doesn't go "nod, nod" with your every comment that 40% of our population is racist. And that I happen to think that is self-defeating thinking.
Carry on, we agree to disagree.
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 9:15pm
Thanks for the discussion. I understand your position but it seems that by calling groups self-defining and failing to reach out ignores the reality that Democrats reach out to black neighborhoods every four years. Labor unions, environmental groups, and Planned Parenthood reach out to Democrats continuously. Flint was poisoned and ignored receiving help late in the game. No help from Trump voters. The Native Americans directly impacted by the Dakota pipeline got no help from Trump voters. Selfish "self-defined" groups exist as a means of survival.
I am reminded of Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter From a Birmingham Jail".
"Self-defined" groups are not going away. They reject the nonsense of "identity politics". Sessions is preparing to ignore police abuse, deport parents, suppress votes, etc. Let us know when the Trump supporters become allies.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 10:21pm
RM you may find a more satisfying level of political analysis on many current topics at Booman Tribune'
The main poster is Martin Longman, a writer at Washington Monthly and he does quite extensive 'real world' analysis, among the best.
He predicted a danger of Republican 'southernization of northern states' in 2013 if racial rhetoric was dialed up by the GOP prez candidate in the next election. The commenters there run the usual spread, although there is less monopolization and endless back and forth arguments in commentary.
Krugman on Trump/GOP white identity politics in Why Don't All Jobs Matter:
As to AA's Lilla piece, he is a university intellectual, long a denizen of or the hallowed well funded corridors of academia. I note that in the linked piece Lilla doesn't even mention 'Republican', 'GOP', 'hate' or 'racism', you cannot write about where politics has sunk in this country without those topics. He seems to believe 'identity politics' occurs only on the left.
by NCD on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 10:24pm
Thanks NCD
I tried to provide links to support my position. I have seen no plan that would get Trump supporters to switch to the Democrats. Very few Trump supporters regret their vote. Trump voter income was in the $75K range. Race trumped economics for many Trump voters. Ignoring facts mean that solutions will fail. Trump has a hardcore 40%. Breaking that bond will be difficult.
ABC/WaPo polling from Sunday
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/04/trump-voters-have-no-regret...
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 10:55pm
538com did an income neutral survey after the election and found Education, Not Income, Predicted Who Would Vote For Trump.
As the Insider View link I have above relates, education is a huge problem with these people.
A key aspect of low education is that these sort of people have historically been easy bait for racist demagoguery.
by NCD on Tue, 04/25/2017 - 12:45am
Trump attracts a strange brew. It is tempting to try to find evidence of normality within his supporters. There are still attempts to argue that Ivanka and Jarrod will have a moderating effect on Trump despite the absence of evidence verifying that assumption. Matt's is supposed to be the adult in the room, but then we see Mattie supporting the idea that an aircraft carrier group is steaming towards North Korea. The group was headed in the opposite direction. There is no normal when it comes to Trump.
We have 18 months to see if the Sanders-Perez outreach is helpful. So far, Sanders says that he is not a Democrat and offers lukewarm support for Ossoff. Ellison blames Obama for Democratic Party loses. Sanders and Ellison are free to criticize Democrats, but offer a different opinion and you get shut down. There is zero evidence that Democrats can win back Trump voters. The outreach is ongoing. I await the results.
Ellison's statement
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/329673-ellison-obama-deserves-blame...
The pushback
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/330039-ellison-comments...
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/25/2017 - 7:02am
Wow, is Ellison really saying anything so outlandish? "No drama Obama" as a strategy had some benefits, but some disadvantages as well. Until campaigning for Hillary & other Dems in 2016, it often seemed his heart wasn't into that party thing (and frequently over the first 6 years it was a question whether he was a detriment or help to party members).
Here's a headline from 2012 that might have been written last fall:
"Obama campaign abandons white working-class voters in favor of minorities and the educated"
The party didn't just find itself in its current predicament overnight.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/25/2017 - 9:39am
Little 'ole Afrocentrist me always asks why working class people in minority groups find harmony with the Democrats, while white working class voters do not. I think racial bias plays a major role in the division
http://www.commercialappeal.com/story/opinion/columnists/2017/03/21/demo...
As noted in the link, I don't see a way to gain back those white voters.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/25/2017 - 9:59am
First, there's no other alternative for black voters - there's not going to be a black Bernie Sanders who comes along and provides a revolution based on unmet needs - Jesse Jackson was as close as that got, and I don't see it happening again anytime soon, black or Hispanic. As the saying goes, our system has 2 speeds, and if you don't like this one, you sure ain't gonna like the other. What the Democrats bring is largely as good as it gets for the foreseeable future..
Second, you yourself have noted lowered expectations from a tilted playing field - for example that black unemployment is almost always twice that of whites - so no one's holding their breath for many of these long-term issues to go away, philosophical discussions of whether they're structural or not aside.
Third, whites largely assimilated the post-war years as "The New Normal", whereas I think blacks saw it as a big step forward in a number of ways, but tenuous and largely beholden to organized action, and overall not *that* great. So for whites that nostalgia's become some kind of Holy Grail or gold standard, whereas for blacks, it's just another era.
Certainly there's a great deal of racism involved in the jealousy and reactions and overall level of hatred, but as your link notes, there's quite a bit of economic justification to prime those feral primal emotions.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/25/2017 - 10:39am
True. Perceptions are different for different groups. Bernie came across as updated Marcus Garvey or Reverend Ike leading us to the land of milk and honey. Many movements left blacks out of the picture. Occupy Wall Street was for whites. There was very little involvement of blacks. I commended the organizers of the Women's March for bringing in minority women into leadership roles, but the organizing committee had to be reminded before that restructuring happened. When people say they loathe "identity politics", blacks remember the political exclusions past and present. "Identity politics" by definition means minority issues are headed for the wastebasket.
The housing collapse devastated the wealth of the black community. Instead of calling everybody to work to repair the damage done, we get the dog whistle "identity politics" from some Progressives. Blacks targeted with high-risk loans hear the message, we will get to your issues later.
The GOP is openly hostile to the black community. The Democratic Party is the beneficiary by way of gaining votes. The DNC is smart enough not to alienate black voters by using the offensive term "identity politics". Some Progressives need to erase the term from their vocabulary. Blacks did not commit suicide after the housing collapse, they saw it as another day in the USA. If there is a sense that the Democrats are abandoning the black community, black voters will stay home. Blacks can suffer through eight years of Trump rather than being disrespected by supporters of a 70+ year old tone deaf guy who advises against "identity politics".
Link to article about housing collapse
http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/10/19/inam.housing.foreclosure.money/
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/25/2017 - 11:28am
I think I've made it clear over and over that I regard the housing collapse + mortgage theft & robosigning as perhaps the biggest betrayal of black aspirations and promises made. Besides the foothold of many more government jobs in the 90's, growing homeownership was then a step towards increased stable family wealth plus signified more staying power and control in both black and "gentrified" neighborhoods - rather than more horrid stories from housing projects during a crime wave, this was where black families could begin to take advantage of the normal boring & uneventful trappings of suburbia, some safe(r) space for a change. And then the croupier swept all those winnings off the table back in the pot with a pithy "this belongs to the house". Sadly, Obama wasn't too much a help in this ugly chapter either.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/25/2017 - 11:52am
NYTimes headline editors rub it in:
The Spending Bill Was Supposed to Be Easy. Then Trump Intervened.
by artappraiser on Mon, 04/24/2017 - 9:02pm