MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Comments
Fukuyama finds some worthy causes in protest but decides #Metoo = Islamists. We are supposed to aspire to the American creed. Who decides how the creed is applied? So far it has been one ethnic group. Fukuyama previously argued that we were headed to a rash of liberal democracies, yet populists are on the rise. It does it appear that Appiah is clear about what he would change. The critical mass that combated and continues to combat racism in the United States were based in identity politics. Aggrieved groups will protest for their interests.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 08/26/2018 - 10:38am
If #MeToo is unacceptable,what organized protest is allowed?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 9:09am
Does anybody have a way to read this without paying?
I am curious but not enough to cut into my beer budget.
by moat on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 10:07am
I was able to get in without signing in or subscribing
https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2018/08/25/francis-fukuyama-and-kwame-anthony-appiah-take-on-identity-politics
Edit to add:
Here is the portion of the summary I point out
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 10:38am
Fukuyama’s solution is the national creed. This results in the xenophobic creed being promoted by Trump and the GOP. Fukuyama admits this is a result of focusing on a national creed.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 10:43am
Well, that is ass backwards. Reading Hegel at a formative age without sufficient preparation can lead to unfortunate results.
Consider statements like the following: " To demand justice for one marginalized group is often to overlook the higher goals of equality and respect for all." What does that look like? I am coming up blank. The lack of "inclusion" is what is being challenged. It doesn't cause the exclusion. The idea that "group identity" happens only when some collection of individuals declare it voluntarily is so dumb it makes me laugh. And the laughing hurts.
Does Dad know?
by moat on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 11:58am
Identity politics is simply a technique used to attempt to silence marginalized groups. I’ll take the identity politics of W.E.B. DuBois, Martin Luther King Jr, Fannie Lou Hamer, Malcolm X, and William Barber over Fukuyama’s never to be agreed upon national creed any day of the week. The national creed was in full operation during the Civil Rights, Women’s Rights, and Gay Rights movements. Identity politics is a call for maintaining the status quo and wait for the national creed to magically decide that you are a person worthy of respect.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 12:13pm
I see the idea of a national idea as more of a shared process than a shared identity. What Plato said in the Republic about the "noble lie", arguing that we all popped up like plants in the ground is also an observation that nobody would believe that story. You know, sex and stuff.
The presumptions made in Fukuyama's argument are more important than the conclusions he hopes will draw everyone's attention.
by moat on Wed, 08/29/2018 - 8:12pm
What? Identity politics *is* the support of specific and/or all marginalized groups.
by PeraclesPlease on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 4:03am
Identity politics is a scam. What is our national creed and who decides?
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 8:15am
Huh?! You consistently support what Fukuyama means by identity politics here on this site day after day.
What he means by Identity politics is working according to an ethnic, racial, tribal or class identity
What he means by national creed is creating a nation based on a constitution that says something like we the people agree to have a civilization based on these principles and ideas within these borders and here are the rules it's going to work by
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 10:19am
The national creed held people in bondage, kept group from voting, supported Jim Crow, etc. When the creed did not come to the rescue, marginalized groups organized into protest groups. The women who started #MeToo had valid complaints, there protest was identity politics.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 10:30am
You are myopically talking about one specific problem/failure in U.S. history where one particular nation state failed its creed and that is not what these intellectuals are talking about, one failure to achieve the principles of the creed by one nation, they are talking about much bigger picture, how the world should organize itself, which is the best way to have the least number of failures and most success. Apples and oranges. You could bring this up to Fukuyama as just one example of a failure and he would easily counter, well that's just one failure look at all these other successes.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 10:46am
See below
His last great analysis was that liberal democracies would flourish. He was wrong. He is wrong here as well.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:06am
Your comment is just plain wrong as to common usage of the term! You are creating your own language and reality like Trump does! It is impossible for anyone to communicate if they are using totally different definitions for the same words. Therefore you end up arguing here with others over really: nothing! Because you are not talking about what everyone else is, but something else.
Hopefully your many garbled communications on what you think is "identity politics" can be cleared up by this example in the news today. This is an example of practicing identity politics. Asian students protest and then use the courts to sue that Harvard should accept far more students of Asian heritage and far fewer students of black and white and other heritages:
Justice Department Sides Against Harvard In Racial Discrimination Lawsuit
That's practicing identity politics. It also would be practicing identity politics to counter protest that there should be more black students and fewer white and Asian students.
The Asian students are arguing based on a "creed" where students would be accepted by test scores and intellectual merit, since their identity group happens to have higher test scores than other groups. The black students might argue that they should have preference based on a "creed" where societal disadvantage and lack of privilege should have preference over test scores. The white students might argue that they should be given preference because of a "creed" of believing children of alumni should be given preference, a situation due to past white privilege.
In this case it is likely that the court is going to be deciding what Harvard's admission "creed" should be.
Now transfer this kind of identity politics to a much bigger world. For an example: you have a nation state in the 20th century, Turkey, that has Turks, Armenians and Kurds in it. It doesn't have a creed about who has rights there. The Turks are the majority and decide they are going to rule. The Armenians don't like that. The Turks slaughter them and chase them out of the country. They sublimate the Kurds and don't allow them to use their language. There's your end results of identity politics without an agreed-upon creed. Identity vs. identity, where usually the guy with the most guns wins. War. Constant war. It's the way civilization was run until recently: survival of the fittest, oppress the weak. Religious crusades and ethic pogroms, genocide, slavery, world wars, often saying "god" on their side...
You still like this practice of identity politics without a creed? Yes or no.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 6:10pm
They have a clear explanation of their free article policy here
Paywall FAQ
You must click on their site a lot, you intellectual, you!
From googling I see there are some naughty suggestions @ Quora's reader question/answer forum (I didn't know Quora had this, function, interesting?)---
How do I read articles from The Economist for free?
This one suggestion sounds promising, if only to use that site to print other online articles that don't print well using my own setup!
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 3:26pm
Yes, I bagged my limit. I will the work out a try.
by moat on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 4:29pm
if you're using Firefox, right click on the link and choose 'open link in private window', or 'new window'. it usually works.
by wd (not verified) on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 4:52pm
thanks for taking the time to offer the suggestion!
by artappraiser on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 5:40pm
That worked. But I wouldn't try it twice on the same site.
by moat on Wed, 08/29/2018 - 8:15pm
newer with much more detail on Fukuyama's p.o.v.:
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 2:17am
In the case where legislators create laws to suppress votes of one specific group, what protest is allowed given that in all likelihood, no other group benefits from the protest.Only one group benefits from #MeToo.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 8:28am
That is what moat was addressing in his comment above on Tue, 08/28/2018 - 11:58am, which you seemed to object to? You're not making any sense to me. In the context of this thread about Fukuyama's ideas, if you are going to use different definitions of the terms than Fukuyama is using, you need to start out by defining why you think his definitions of the words are wrong and how you are going to use them before you even get to content. Or it's just word salad and apples and oranges and makes no sense to a reader. Basically attempting to communicate in two different languages. But why even bother if you don't like or get his definitions or have other interests or priorities than what he is talking about?
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 10:41am
P.S. This is not such a surprise to me because in effect you are hijacking Fukuyama's topic to talk about what you always want to talk about. One track mind is like an understatement here. Can't you see the counter-productivity of refusing any other frame of reference except your own? It's like you are on a crusade to get everyone in the world to stop talking about what they are talking about and see everything through the frame of injustices that happened/happen to Afro Americans. Albanians or Kurds or Iranians might not care so much about your crusade. Ironically that is actually the problem he is trying to address.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:04am
Most social progress comes about from protests coming from identity politics
Civil Rights
Gay Rights
Women’s Right
People With disabilities etc.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:10am
There is no such thing as civil rights without a agreed upon creed defining what they are. The alternative is: I am an Albanian and you are not.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:20am
Sigh
It took protest to gain civil rights for all. The spark was protest from identity politics groups.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:25am
again this problem is already laid out in moat's comment upthread. You argue for no reason except to hijack to your frame of reference.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:33am
If the U.S. Constitution bothers you as an example, you can instead use the U.N Universal Declaration of Human Rights or even the Magna Carta. These are examples of what is meant by agreeing to a creed, there are no civil rights without creeds.They are agreed beliefs in abstract principles using the mind, not physical identities.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:31am
The last great Fukuyama idea was that liberal democracies would spring up all over.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/09/its-still-not-the-end-of-history-francis-fukuyama/379394/
I think we will look back on Fukuyama’s tale on so-called identity politics as being incorrect.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:04am
The end of Fukuyama's End of History isn't as triumphal as Stanley and Lee make it out to be. There is no timeline and he covers his hind parts with thoughts about "reversals". While I agree with their criticism that free markets do not bring all the participants together into a polity, that does not address the Hegelian notion that mastery and slavery drive our development toward some form of life where recognition of the individual is not based upon the denigration of another.
Back in the day, the exercise of "identity politics" was known as war between different groups of people. The opposite pole to Fukuyama's vision was Samuel Huntington's Clash of Civilizations. Can there be a "world order" that doesn't require the absolute negation of other systems or is Sam correct with his Highlander approach? Talk amongst yourselves.
Now Fukuyama is wrong about the nature of groups struggling against each other for two reasons. He exempts "reactionaries" from being a part of the game until other groups teach them how it is done. This negates his original thought (or Hegel's, to be precise) that denigration is the state of war. It also makes the "reactionaries" appear as coming from another planet with a special diet. As for victimization in right wing politics, a semester at even a community college course of history should clear up his misconceptions as well as his sinuses.
The other mistake is thinking of the Liberal order that doesn't denigrate people as something that is already in view. Hegel made the same one. It goes something like this: I can conceive of this thing. So it must be very like what I imagine it to be even though only suggestions and shadows of it have been produced so far.
So, in conclusion, poor lost souls of a republic that never existed did not create identity politics to serve their nefarious ends. Why screw around with that when you can just control people with power and money?
by moat on Sun, 09/02/2018 - 9:02pm
In the Arizona election, white men were replaced by women and ethnic minorities. Reporter wonders why the Democratic Party is OK with identity politics and no longer has room for white males
Reporter’s lament
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/robertrobb/2018/08/29/arizona-primary-election-results-why-white-male-democrats-fare-poorly/1136395002/
One response
https://thedailybanter.com/issues/2018/08/30/white-male-reporter-is-upset-white-men-are-being-punished-by-identity-politics/
If things don’t go your way, blame “identity politics”.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:34am
And this has to do with the theories of Fukayama and/or Appiah how, exactly?
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:36am
The scam of identity politics gives rise to this type of nonsense.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:40am
What does it take for you to see that when thinkers like this use the term identity politics what they are talking about is all of the Trumpian "populist" movements afflicting the world right now? Are you really that dense that you don't realize these thinkers are pro-diversity and anti aggrieved imperialist white people in decline?
Edit to add: They are arguing with Steve Bannon, not you. But I'd venture a guess that if you continued to force your favorite closed-minded, myopic frame with them like you often do on this website, they might accuse you of enabling him.
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:49am
Fukuyama includes everybody, not just Trump
https://www.economist.com/books-and-arts/2018/08/25/francis-fukuyama-and-kwame-anthony-appiah-take-on-identity-politics
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 11:59am
The New York Times' review of same two books, here is an excerpt of the first half:
What Is Identity?
By Anand Giridharadas, Aug. 27, 2018
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 12:10pm
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 12:33pm
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 12:34pm
More from Appiah's twitter feed on articles related to his book and radio interview today
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 12:49pm
Fukuyama posted a link to podcast he did with Buzzfeed yesterday
and among other assorted things, re-tweeted this little tidbit:
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 12:44pm
even more from Appiah (note his twitter blurb: b. London. raised Kumasi, Ghana. m. Henry Finder. Prof NYU. Ethicist NYTimes. Write about ethics, African, African American Studies. )
by artappraiser on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 12:55pm
Apiah has no problem with cultural theft
from Cosmpolitianism
http://www.globalethicsnetwork.org/profiles/blogs/book-review-of-cosmopolitanism-by-kwame-anthony-appiah
A country who has artifacts stolen should relax and realize that the theft is so that the world can be exposed to the stolen material. Brings to mind the theft depicted in “Black Panther” when an African steals back stolen articles. Good for the goose, good for the gander
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 3:05pm
This truly is BORING! So dumb! Don’t we have enough actual problems to worry about?
by CVille Dem on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 7:50pm
Bad day?
by barefooted on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 8:28pm
And this is some of my favorite kind of reading! People's tastes are funny that way! Individualistic...because we are like, individuals....
by artappraiser on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 12:45am
After some mulling, I accept that I cannot draw sharp lines between the various arguments that have been presented. But it may not be useless to observe that these arguments were present at the beginning of this Republic. The establishment of religion clause says people can gather together any way they choose upon any shared set of beliefs as long as those principles do not call for the dissolution of our Union.
Whatever the best way forward may be, the argument that some people argue too much for their point of view ignores why this place is here.
by moat on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 8:54pm
An excellent argument against boring. Because consideration, thought and, yes, mulling cannot in themselves be overstated.
by barefooted on Thu, 08/30/2018 - 9:27pm
Can't we all ge...........
by Flavius on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 12:35am
The great philosopher Rodney King!
Edit to add: not being facetious.
by artappraiser on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 12:41am
Al Green - "We Should Stay Together"
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 12:54am
Short answer, No, we can't. He's not a great philosopher. He's simple minded. Anyway, I don't want to get along. I want to win. I'd rather fight to win and lose than try to get along.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 1:11am
and that's why you work in a ghost town, right?
by artappraiser on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 1:23am
What's your point? You think ghosts can't fight?
by ocean-kat on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 2:05am
see, that's why you're special, most people would just slap something on from Ghostbusters
by artappraiser on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 2:07am
Since the panned all grrrl-powered reboot, most people would just slap Ghostbusters around, whereas an Orc is still an Orc, a Hobbit still a Hobbit. But bad grrrls are still often just bad grrrls.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 7:10am
And a sigh is just a
Dooley
by Flavius on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 7:43am
"Play it again - you know the one. If she can take it, I can too." - overheard at an Orc camp.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 8:28am
It's Play it again, Sam. As we all know that iconic movie cliche was originally a reference to Frodo's friend Sam Wise Gamgee.
by ocean-kat on Fri, 08/31/2018 - 2:31pm
Francis Fukuyama retweeted:
I went to look for a bio on the author, I found this @ TheGuardian.com
by artappraiser on Mon, 09/03/2018 - 3:28pm
We may reach that point someday. Most Americans today think the Trump is a racist
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2018-02-28/ap-norc-poll-most-americans-say-trump-is-racist
We already have some politicians who can’t identify racists. The Illinois Governor had a problem saying that David Duke was a racist.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/illinois-governor-believes-david-duke-is-a-racist-spokesman-clarifies/
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 09/03/2018 - 4:10pm
My eyes start to glaze over. First, I've become allergic to the phrase "the X needs to...." - I don't need to do jack shit, aside from open another beer & figure out if I'll keep reading or not.
Second, telling me I'm sexist, racist, xenophobic - well, duh. But how much, in what way? Am I mistaken in my information, or a trenchant X or Y or Z beyond hope? And an important question - who is it that's evaluating me on these traits or issues? what is *their* slant, problem or goal?
I will say that the chorus of little gnats piling on with pithy platitudes about white pride or male privilege or other de rigeur proclamation from this gen's Spartacus Youth League makes me take things less serious than I might.
These articles seem to be starting to accept that change might be coming too fast for some, but they don't necessarily question whether that change is right or wrong, should be accepted or stopped or reversed.
Again, tired.... is this all there is? another soap box?
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 09/03/2018 - 4:29pm
Identitarians? Spank me with a wooden spoon, is that the new "neocon"?
Did these indentitarians agree to form a group and march upon the county seat of Getoffmylawn?
Let's just cruise the aisles of the supermarket and throw anything we like into the cart. I named my cart Thursday. Anything I put in the cart now belongs to Thursday.
by moat on Mon, 09/03/2018 - 6:33pm
by artappraiser on Thu, 09/13/2018 - 1:30am
Wooldridge says this
But also says this about diversity
https://www.economist.com/business/2016/02/11/diversity-fatigue
He recognizes the need to address tribal behaviors
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 09/13/2018 - 9:01am
by artappraiser on Fri, 09/14/2018 - 5:35pm
best article on Fukuyama's book yet:
Francis Fukuyama: Trump instinctively picks racial themes to drive people on the left crazy’
by Tim Adams @ The Observer @ The Guardian.com, Sept. 16, included phone interview with interesting points
by artappraiser on Sun, 09/16/2018 - 12:23pm
The progression of ideas presented by Tim Adams suffers from a fatal flaw:
If there are parents of the "desire for recognition" to be found, why would anyone think they were Marxist class wars or the people who fought them? Presumably, the impulse being presented as an engine and pattern for political expression predates those events. According to the philosophers who originally brought up the idea, the impulse predates the act of dating anything.
by moat on Sun, 09/16/2018 - 6:04pm
I get what you're saying, Mr. Philosopher Moat, but I didn't/don't think that way, when I read something like this. To me he just picked out Marxist class wars as one of a string of historical developments that he was throwing around as examples with which the human race has experimented. And he was just doing it not for preaching his own opinion, but just trying to help summarize Fukuyama's. A little sloppy, I guess, if he was doing a grand debate of Plato Thymos vs. Socrates, but it was a helpful example for me, among others in the article, to understand the whole behavorial thing Fukuyma is getting at. To me, the whole article is metaphors, and good ones.
by artappraiser on Sun, 09/16/2018 - 11:22pm
What I find unhelpful in Fukuyama's approach is that he uses part of a psychological idea without coming to terms with its complete structure. In so far as Fukuyama cites Hegel when introducing the desire for recognition, it is important to observe that Hegel sees it as integral to the existence of self-consciousness as such in every individual:
179. Self-consciousness is faced by another self-consciousness; it has come out of itself. This has a two
fold significance: first, it has lost itself, for it finds itself as an other being; secondly, in doing so it has
superseded the other, for it does not see the other as an essential being, but in the other sees its own self.
Phenomenology of Spirit
A few chapters later, these two orphans of pure existence attempt to kill each other. One of them decides to submit to the will of the other in order to keep on living. In that moment, Lordship and Bondage make their appearance on the plains of History.
In terms of the present discussion, this dynamic predates all groups forming upon the basis of privilege or its absence within particular cultures. As a continuation of Kant's view that there is an order of values that are shared by all mankind, the dynamic is essentially cosmopolitan. However useful or not one might find this point of view, it is about as far from a tribal understanding that one can get. Nobody forced Fukuyama to draw from this legacy or use the logic underlying it to say what he thinks is most important right now. But he did choose to do so. The merit of his perspective is entangled in webs of misunderstanding.
by moat on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 11:59am
all I can say is: you make me think of stuff like this:
and like, Joseph Campbell.
I'm an art historian who wishes they had Material Culture as a major when I went to college. I don't get trying to fit all thinking into philosophical categories, just can't grok it, doesn't hit me as right, I don't trust it, it's not real.
by artappraiser on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 12:18pm
Hegel certainly thought he understood a lot of things. The different visions of the limits of "philosophy" invite all kinds of very different discussions. For the purposes of sorting out what is meant by recognition in regards to "identity politics", however, Hegel is presenting a simple psychological concept: Every individual process of self consciousness is inescapably bound up with encounters with other people. These encounters are with whoever is encountered, not some idealized person that is proposed to be present for whatever reason, but the other people who are there in real time with you, thinking whatever stuff they happen to be thinking in the moment. If he had just stopped there and not attempted to explain anything else, he would have been more interesting. A discussion for another time.
Needless to say, or perhaps it needs to be said, this simple observation has drawn a lot of interest in either building from it to observe other things or rejecting it as a misunderstanding of what is going on because it conceals important realities. Jung was certainly in the thick of that discussion.
by moat on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 6:57pm
thanks for entertaining my handicaps
by artappraiser on Tue, 09/18/2018 - 12:39am
Well, I don't understand all of the views I brought up completely myself. What I hoped to bring forward by reviewing the origins of these ideas is that there is a distinction to be observed between people resisting the idea they do not exist and those wanting to stop bad things upon general principles of accepted law. The whole defect of the identity narrative is that it gloms together precisely what should be separated.
The BLM movement, for example, is objecting to getting shot while unarmed while also being black. That is not about claiming an identity but really not liking getting shot while being who every one recognizes them being. To equate this sort of thing with being fixated upon being recognized as a group is not an advance in making the situation better.
by moat on Tue, 09/18/2018 - 7:46pm
ah yes.
But then there's that the ultra politically correct lefties jump on a bandwagon like the original BLM. And they are welcomed because the BLM people feel there is strength in numbers. And then, rightly or wrongly, smart or dumbly, a football player thinks making it an issue at America's # 1 past time thinks it a helpful thing to do. Then a culture wars expert president/demagogue plays that card. And who is talking about their issue anymore?
Brings up the whole thing where political experts always advise: make your message clear, refine and work on your message, what's the message, etc. An ineffective message seems to be "we are black and we are victims", that's the road to Victim Olympics.
Is not a better message to de-tribalize, to stick to: we are unfairly stereotyped and "profiled" by police as similar and as all belonging to a criminally dysfunctional tribe just because of our skin color and this is outrageous because we are not really one tribe at all. I did always like that in the beginning of Kaepernick's protests, there was some stress on his bi-racial background, including a white biological mother and white adoptive parents, but that he decided, he needed to show solidarity with people with colored skin on this one issue. His very non-tribal background, to me, that was actually his strength when he started out.
It is the stereotyping and profiling stupids? Which when done by authority is in effect a forcing of tribalism on individuals? I still see more individualism as a solution. It does not mean rejecting all cultures, like with the young Jung, certain tribal archetypes will resound with individuals as universalism. It's "tribal" by choice, you choose your tribe, you make your own.
by artappraiser on Tue, 09/18/2018 - 8:15pm
p.s. I can't recommend the Joanna Williams tape enough for making some of these things clearer for me, along the lines of universalism and what is common among the current tribal and populist movements. Even if one doesn't agree with her, she gives off the remarkable clarity of someone intelligent who has constantly thought about these things day in, day out for years as a scholar, and that her agenda came after that, not before.
by artappraiser on Tue, 09/18/2018 - 8:13pm
There are a lot of things being mixed together that cause me to stand off a distance and try to work out a few matters for myself.
My first question in regards to the identity differentiation discussion is how it is that it is automatically any kind of politics. Politics are hard. By definition, any work to gather people to do something is a product. Undermining or Boosting the product is not the same thing as why people bothered to make it. Fukuyama is blending what should be differentiated. I will read his whole book if I have to in order to make this observation. It is not what I prefer to do. But I will do it if I have to.
My second question repeats a distinction I have made before, some groups gather because they want to use their groupiness to get something and others have groupiness thrust upon them. All this talk of tribes doesn't advance an understanding of that difference. That difference is the one to understand.
by moat on Sat, 09/22/2018 - 7:45pm
New article by Fukuyama for Politico Magazine, haven't read it yet:
by artappraiser on Sun, 09/16/2018 - 11:12pm
There was also an op-ed @ The Hill on Sept. 12 which is somewhat a summary of the main idea of the book using the Mideast as example:
National identity crisis makes the US more like the Middle East
by artappraiser on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 12:15am
The more they talk about exceptionalism, the less exceptional we become.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 1:40am
When did the United States become post-racial? Trump won because of white ethnic anxiety. The Tea Party was a response to the election of a black President.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 7:57am
Try again - it was a growing consensus by the mid-90's - i.e. not complete but coalescing. The right managed to pull this unity apart through quite a bit of strategy, especially in the Bush years whereby we successfully demonized 1 ethnic/religious group, and the rest followed.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 8:17am
The 90s. Rodney King. O.J. Simpson. Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill.
Riots
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/06/clinton-and-the-politics-of-90s-racial-backlash.html
Edit to add:
Welfare reform
Tge crime bill that came back to haunt Hillary’s Presidential campaigns.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 9:04am
FFS, *mid-90's*, post-Rodney King riots (1992), welfare reform & crime bill done with input from black community as partners, not shoved down its throat like now. Bush came in and immediately started to toughen up the welfare reform requirements, for example.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 9:11am
12 of the 39 members of the Congressional Black Caucus opposed the crime bill. Many who did vote for the bill feared a more draconian bill would pass if the crime bill was defeated
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/13/opinion/did-blacks-really-endorse-the-1994-crime-bill.html
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 10:32am
The three black candidates for Governor talked about the impact of race on their campaigns. They point out that white sensibilities limit the degree that they can actually discuss race. Black voters realize the limits placed upon black political candidates when it comes to discussions of race. Fukuyama wants people to operate under the delusion that the national creed is not an attempt to pretend race is not involved in everyday life. This works well for Fukuyama in academia it is a farce when applied outside the ivory tower.
Link to the Black Gubernatorial candidates article
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/gubernational-nominees-democrats-race_us_5b9c2527e4b046313fbb1bbf
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 8:17am
I'm a white dude. I want black candidates to talk about me and my problems as much as black problems. I'm in the majority. If there's enough attention to problems that affect black and white both, fine, I'm not selfish, but surprise me. What I liked about welfare reform was it took on an entrenched problem in novel ways. With productivity and the nature of the jobs market changing, we might be able to justify a minimum livable income for all - but I don't want to do that to subsidize an antisocial, crime-ridden, drug-ridden gun-packing populace (white or black, mind you) - that's just subsidizing atrocities.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 9:37am
For all the talk about black identity politics, can you name a black candidate for statewide or national office who excluded white voters?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 09/17/2018 - 9:51am
by artappraiser on Wed, 09/19/2018 - 1:52pm
An interview by World Post's Nathan Gardels
That was published Sept. 18. Gardels wrote his own related op-ed Sept. 21:
Behind the breakdown of political consensus
by artappraiser on Sat, 09/22/2018 - 3:27pm
by artappraiser on Fri, 09/28/2018 - 9:36am
Obama on "identity politics":
from
What Obama Talks About When He Talks About Trump
At an appearance in Houston on Tuesday, the former president had no trouble explaining a reference to Trump as Voldemort.
By Edward-Isaac Dovere @ TheAtlantic.com, NOV 29, 2018
by artappraiser on Thu, 12/06/2018 - 2:41am
Republicans blocked Obama’s court appointment. There are Republican legislative coups in Wisconsin and Michigan. An election appears to have been tainted in North Carolina, again by a member of the GOP. In Texas, Georgia, and Florida, there were attempts to form coalitions, although outreach to Hispanic voters in Florida feel short. I really don’t se identity politics a as a both sides do it argument.
Republicans who left the party, appear more concerned about the methods used by Trump than any appeal to a Democratic Party message. Most people who voted for Trump like his policies, for the most part. The people who remain in the GOP have no problem kidnapping or assign babies, or calling NFL players SOBs.
Bernie Sanders appears to e gearing up for a run for President, but he seems as tone deaf on race as ever. He initially said that some white people had problems voting for blacks when commenting on the Governor’s races in Florida and Georgia. He then quickly walked the statement back. Speaking for all black people, that makes Bernie look weak on issues of race. Bernie is the mirror image of Trump, a septuagenarian who has ideas that appeal to a party’s base, but is a disaster as the messenger for the policies. Let’s e clear, Trump is a white supremacist. Bernie sees the world mainly in economic terms and really cannot understand ethnic issues. Trump understands identity politics and practices it everyday. Bernie can’t identify.
As is stands now identity politics only fits one political party. On the Democratic side, it’s only factions fighting for power. Marcia Fudge said racism played a role in the lack of black women in leadership in the Democrats in Congress. The issue was quickly squashed and the Democrats appear to have an agenda for 2019.
There is no identity politics comparison between the Republicans and the Democrats. The Republicans are fighting a revolution and Democrats are just playing politics for particular issues. Republicans put the country in peril.
by rmrd0000 on Thu, 12/06/2018 - 4:14am
Baker made a dig at Republicans who passed last year’s tax bill, comparing it to what happened under Reagan: “It was a tax reform that was a true tax reform—it didn’t jack up the unsustainable debt of the United States. It was revenue neutral.”
The average deficit during Carter's presidency was 60 billion. The average deficit during Reagan's presidency was over 180 billion. How is that revenue neutral?
by ocean-kat on Thu, 12/06/2018 - 4:01pm
by artappraiser on Sat, 04/20/2019 - 10:15pm
The founding fathers practiced white supremacy. Jim Crow replaced slavery. Voter suppression is alive and well today. I don’t think the right needed the left to activate white identity politics.
From the article on King and the Civil Rights Movement
On women’s rights
The he left is not to blame, but while we at analyzing let’s minimize the racism.
On solutions
The problem as it stands is that white voters will overlook racism and voter suppression. When Obama are was offered, they rejected it even though they benefited from the program. Now they are outraged if you try to abolish the problem. They laugh at the Green New Deal which could improve their incomes. There is sympathy for white workers, but they are rejecting suggestions. The reality is that most minorities and most women are not going to be comfortable giving up gains they have made to make whites feel better.
Take the opioid epidemic, it receives major attention because it is viewed as a white problem. The impact on black communities is overlooked.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/local/opioid-epidemic-and-its-effect-on-african-americans/?utm_term=.461120d08653
Democrats do outreach to white communities. Democrats do outreach to minority communities. As long as white voters see things as a zero sum game, I don’t see things changing. White identity politics was not triggered by King in the 1960s. White identity politics was written into the Constitution.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 04/21/2019 - 12:24am
All of this has very little to do with what he says in the article I posted in the comment that you are replying to.
I recommend you read it
If you don't want to read it, you are certainly welcome to add to this thread, but when you do the hijack and strawman thing in reply to an article, it just looks like you have a ridiculous bee in your bonnet about Fukuyama.
And I am interested in what Fukuyama theory, not rmrd theory.
by artappraiser on Sun, 04/21/2019 - 1:40am
There is no hijack.
I highlighted own Fukuyama’s words. It is very clear that whites are upset. Fukuyama opines that identity politics is the problem. His timeline begins near the time of the push for equality by African-Americans. He also cites the women’s rights movement as another identity politics group. Fukuyama says that blacks and women have justifiable grievances, but that now too many groups feel aggrieved, thus whites respond by voicing their own grievances.
The problem with the timeline is that it overlooks the role of white supremacy. This is 2019, 400 years after blacks arrived on the shores of the colonies and enslaved. Blacks faced different circumstances than the white servants who were indentured. The Civil War was fought because sections of the country wanted to expand slavery. After the Civil War, whites couldn’t wait to repeal Civil Rights bills that aimed to protect blacks. The overruling of the Civil Rights bill of 1875 ushered in Jim Crow laws. Jim Crow was in place until the Civil Rights bills passed in the 1960s. White supremacy has been in operation since the founding of the country.
I am addressing Fukuyama’s argument that our current troubles are began with the relatively recent concept of identity politics. I think Fukuyama ignores history that precedes Martin Luther King Jr.
I also note that there are no easy solutions to make whites feel better.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 04/21/2019 - 9:42am
You're missing his 3 definitions of identity (among many), and how that's reflected in modern developments. White Americans didn't feel they were disrespected for being white at the time of the Constitution - that's a recent development. Not even during Civil Rights was that the feeling - it was about too much leeway for "lesser people". Nostalgia for Dixie wasn't about Lincoln attacking whites - it was about a "great society" destroyed. The victimhood for being white (including male white) is very recent.
In the 60's and 70's we had Jack Nicholson as good times pussy-hound ubermensch, from Easy Rider and Cuckoo's Nest ending around Witches of Eastwick with a less than convincing retread performance. In the 80's and 90's we got Jack as aging out-of-touch embarrassment in Terms of Endearment and As Good As It Gets (the devil in Eastwick is largely the same embarrassment, but, well, he's the devil so gets his due). That's a decent metric for the rest of society.
He's saying bereaved angry people don't act rational, don't work in their own interests. Pointing out people rejecting Obama's fair and reasonable offers simply reinforces that.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 04/21/2019 - 11:27am
I am not missing his points. He says that white people feel under attack. The question is when have whites never felt that they were under attack by blacks and other minorities?
Jim Crow laws began in 1865, as soon as enslaved blacks were freed.
https://www.history.com/topics/early-20th-century-us/jim-crow-laws
Whites also attempted to limit formerly enslaved people to menial jobs. There was fear of competition.
https://prospect.org/article/black-workers-remember
The problem has always been white supremacy. Whites acted harshly because they felt that they were under assault. Trump merely took advantage of the racial anxiety that was already there. Fukuyama misses the timeline by about 400 years.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 04/21/2019 - 5:36pm
Read my note over again. Read Fukuyama's essay again. Whites didn't feel oppressed as whites in Reconstruction - they hadn't taken on modern racial victimology - it was the war that was wrong, the North's prejudice against the South that was wrong, their misunderstanding of the proper even Biblical order of things, not to mention industrial vs agricultural, city mouse vs country mouse. It was "The South's gonna do it again", not "white people will rise again". This is something different. Before it was "we shouldn't be putting blacks in high places - they ain't smart enough for that, it ain't proper". Now it's "they're taking our jobs, our education". Get the difference?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 1:12am
Is there a way to confirm whether it is true that what is underway involves "borrowing of the left wing concept of identity by the right"?
The topic so quickly becomes other things. And those other things leave a pretty simple question.
Who learned identity politics from whom?
by moat on Mon, 04/22/2019 - 8:44pm
Great question. If the KKK is viewed as an organization that focuses on the purity of white identity, identity politics was originally used by white supremacists. It is puzzling the Fukuyama stats his timeline with Martin Luther King and the I Il Rights era.
We are 400 years from the time that blacks were enslaved in the United States. While the data is not clear on how many blacks were treated as indentured servants. It is clear that some blacks were enslaved. The rationale for enslavement was white supremacy, or white identity politics. White identity politics is why the Civil War was fought. White identity politics is why Jim Crow laws were created. White identity politics played a role in the election of Donald Trump. Trump gets along well with Putin because Russia is a very white country.
Ona Judge ran away from capture by George Washington. Frederick Douglas fought against white identity politics. Booker T Washington attempted to appease white supremacists. W.E.B. DuBois upset whites by demanding equal rights. He was met with resistance. Look at poll numbers concerning MLK and you will see that a majority of whites hated Dr King while he was alive. There was obviously no love for Malcolm X. Blacks made progress using the courts. Little progress would have been made with plebiscites. Modern day white supremacists are trying to stack the court with practitioners of white supremacy.
Fukuyama suggests that newly beleaguered whites are using identity politics because they feel that they are being attacked. From a historical standpoint, when did a segment of whites not feel under assault? To me the presence of white supremacy since the birth of the nation is a more rational explanation for the backlash we currently experience. Martin Luther King did not initiate a change of the dynamics. Douglas, Booker T Washington, DuBois, King, and Malcolm experienced pushback before King. Fukuyama May need to take a deeper look into the Klan for the origin of identity politics in the United States. A subset of whites has always felt that they were under assault. There is very little that can be done to change that reality.
Fukuyama gives whites the power to decide when protest is legitimate and when it should end.
Edit to add:
Fukuyama’s timeline is off by centuries Blacks, women, and other marginalized groups learned the effectiveness of identity politics from the white supremacists.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 04/22/2019 - 11:51pm
Aargh, Fukuyama says *GOP/rightwing shit-disturbers* are using traditionally leftist identity politics to make uneducated left out non-elite whites feel more like they're under attack, to give them their "hey wait, I'm not privileged" talking points - to use class and racial and any other difference & sleight to build up that resentment, feeling of being wringed, shut out of their own country.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 1:18am
The whites under discussion always feel that they are under assault. What has changed since the founding? Traditionalist leftist identity politics was in direct response to white identity politics. White workers in the Jim Crow era did not want the competition from black workers. Current white workers feel marginalized because they see blacks in ownership and management. There is nothing new under the sun. Fukuyama timeline is centuries off.
When was the Golden period when whites felt that things were OK? If things were fine, why did we need the Civil Rights laws of 1865 and 1965? We needed laws because whites felt disrespected. Both laws were chipped away because of white identity politics.
The Civil Rights Act of 1875 was neutered
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Civil-Rights-Act-United-States-1875
The current fight over immigration is not new. The current white supremacist immigration response is identical to the Chinese exclusion Act of 1882
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act
Whites didn’t want competition from Chinese immigrants.
What has changed? When did whites not push back against black progress? The Fukuyama timeline is wrong.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 8:12am
Here is Paul Krugman speaking truth
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/opinion/trump-republican-party.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
Blacks are not going to give up fighting for equality to appease people who vote for a racist. Blacks will be the ones who determine when equality has been achieved, not whites who vote for a racist.
White identity politics (white supremacy) is as American as apple pie
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 9:02am
Great, not only are you the expert on all things black people think, you're the expert on all things white people think too. Must be a demanding job.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 11:14am
That is you doing you repeated strawman argument. I am simply voicing my opinion just like you are voicing yours. My position is that white supremacy has been the foundation since the country began. There has always been pushback against any progress made by black people. Whites felt that they didn’t want to compete against newly freed slaves. Whites felt an economic threat. They limited black access to jobs. Whites created Jim Crow laws because they feared losing their privilege. Whites eroded the Civil Rights bills of 1875 and are now eroding the Civil Rights bills of the 1960s. They feel that their privilege is under threat. T’was ever thus.
I am not doing mind reading, I am pointing out actions done in the name of whites. Trump is stacking the courts in part to limit progress by blacks. Do you deny this?
What differentiates the complaints about black “identity politics” now, and the pushback to black progress noted in the past? When was the Golden period when blacks were not seeking equality?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 11:44am
We're not talking about "White Supremacy" - we're talking about White Identity and modern victimology. You just like talking about White Supremacy, so you can't latch on to the different motif. Whites didn't feel an economic threat from freed slaves - seriously - they felt blacks weren't in their proper place. Whites weren't worried about losing their privilege - they were never in much danger of losing it as they showed time and again. Again, it's a different concept now - whites *are* adopting victimhood framing - specifically as an unfairly targeted demographic, just as the other victims do. That is new. And this hs nothing to do with "when blacks were not seeking equality". Okay, you can go back to talking about White Supremacy ad nauseum now. 2 ships passing in the night.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 12:14pm
You are incorrect. There was a great deal of anger about competing with blacks for skilled jobs.
https://www.sciway.net/hist/chicora/freepersons-2.html
Was the problem that blacks didn’t know their place, or was the problem white identity politics victimhood? I don’t see the clean separation that you see.
How can you look at a group like the Klan and not see whites who viewed themselves as victims lashing out?
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/reconstruction-white-southern-responses-black-emancipation/
White victimhood is centuries old.
Edit to add:
The entire “Lost Cause” movement saw whites as victims
Critical to Lost Cause religion is the conviction that the Civil War was not about slavery, and that white Southerners were victims.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/the-end-of-the-souths-religion-of-the-lost-cause-commentary/2015/06/23/1666ce40-19d8-11e5-bed8-1093ee58dad0_story.html?utm_term=.746914c19068
The current script of whites as victims is not new. It is typical white supremacy/white identity playbook material.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 1:38pm
You just love talking some about the Klan and White Supremacy.
You just can't see a difference between trying to "keep blacks in their place" and feeling that quota systems are locking you out of America's opportunities. The latter isn't "competition for jobs" - it's being locked out of schools for being white, not being eligible for assistance for being white, having job slots or scholarships reserved for minorities or females... by definition these are situations where there's no competition. Someone's unemployed, and they see low wage Mexican labor doing work they feel they could do - that's more resentment.
And by the way, fixing wages of free blacks isn't a sign of competition - as you yourself note, whites were avoiding "black jobs" - they just didn't want blacks to get paid too much. That's the opposite of being afraid for a job - that's consigning it to the bottom of the heap.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 1:33pm
I talk about the Klan because it is relevant today. Trump found decent people among Neo-Nazis. Steve King won his election. Miller and Bannon were hired by Trump.
If whites weren’t afraid of competition, why was access to skilled jobs limited? There were even vicious attacks on black workers.
https://www.syracuse.com/news/2012/02/white_mobs_worried_about_losin.html
Economics was a major reason for racial bias. You simply ignore the facts.
Edit to add:
I am reminded that George Wallace’s campaign was based on white people as victims
https://www.businessinsider.com/racism-populism-american-politics-1968-presidential-campaign-george-wallace-2018-10
Victtimhood Uber Alles
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 2:37pm
I give up.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 2:50pm
American history, it's complicated, so many chapters.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 6:30pm
But wait, where's the victimhood angle?
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 7:12pm
some are slower than others but they eventually get there.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 7:18pm
PP, I have noted that the "Americanist" tribe also likes to present evidence that they know what all black people really think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wVVsKu3bdI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSi3S3T8GEw
Stereotyping, profiling, it's a bitch that can bite back.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 3:51pm
I gave my opinion. You give yours. You obviously don’t speak for all white people as white people disagree with Fukuyama.
You use the strawman argument because you cannot defend the timeline. White identity politics was in play with the “Lost Cause” for example. Whites were victimized because they defended the white race was the argument. White supremacists like George Wallace used the pity olympics card long before Trump voters.
I disagree with Fukuyama’s analysis. You can’t defend Fukuyama, so you attack me.
I also note that another major flaw in Fukuyama’s argument is that Progressives have to do the major lifting. Progressives have to appease Trump voters. He expects Republicans to do nothing.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/2019-02-01/stacey-abrams-response-to-francis-fukuyama-identity-politics-article
Democrats proposed health care, middle class tax cuts, environmental solutions, etc. They explain that everyone benefits. The response from Trump supporters is to continue their support of a party that wants to abolish their health care coverage.
You can’t listen to Elizabeth Warren and not hear how her proposals are meant to benefit everyone. Fortunately for the country, Democrats were able to tap into voters willing to listen in the midterms.
Fukuyama hates Trump and places a “burden” on Republicans, but he knows that they won’t change. If he has solutions that will get Republicans to change from within, he should lay them out, but he can’t. The solution will be what Democrats stated in the midterms, energizing potential voters willing to listen.
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 4:40pm
Fukuyama is a political scientist/economist specializing in international relations.
To say he "hates Trump" is ridiculously infantalizing him and his work and trying to force it into a partisan box of which he does not partake in his professional writing.
Fits your standard modus operandi which clearly is to myopically redraw and reframe nearly every news event, every situation, every narrative within the context of a fictional "black community" complete with all kinds of simplified narratives and tropes about its history and its leaders. Some are wont to call that propaganda, ya know. One thing it clearly is: "us vs. them" tribalism, to a t.
by artappraiser on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 7:15pm
What Fukuyama’s calls Progressive identity politics is going to be front and center in 2020. My vision is 20/20 for 2020. Reparations are being discussed.
Fukuyama obviously talks partisan politics
On Trump
Fukuyama calls Trump’s economic policies idiotic as you read the article further
On Republicans
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/09/the-man-who-declared-the-end-of-history-fears-for-democracys-future/?utm_term=.a58211e9e86b
Have you actually read Fukuyama? Or is it like your reading of Paglia?
by rmrd0000 on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 7:40pm
That deserves a Fukyurama.
by PeraclesPlease on Tue, 04/23/2019 - 7:59pm
I get how Fukuyama does not get racial divisions on a fundamental level but that lack of understanding does not touch upon the linchpin of his argument. His idea that the desire for recognition is the engine of why people resist the existing order excludes the consideration that the frigging liberal order he celebrates came about exactly through that sort of thing.
And on the basis of that consideration, I stand by my earlier arguments that "identity politics" is a fool's game and should be abandoned by everybody, including you.
Who ever that may be.
by moat on Thu, 04/25/2019 - 9:01pm
i think Fukuyama is trying to *analyze* issues, including racial divisions, not "get them" in a binary type of what's acceptable behavior for someone's tribe. The fact that he had 4 or 5 ways of framing them (among more) must have given black-and-white logicians truly horrors.
by PeraclesPlease on Fri, 04/26/2019 - 1:18am
The 4 or 5 “outs” is the problem. Liberal democracies were supposed to follow the fall of Communism, instead populists took over democracies. Fukuyama.can still argue that he was correct because he had 4 or 5 “outs”
What Fukuyama calls identity politics is not going away. Society will survive and the authoritarians will lose. Tribes will form coalitions to defat the tribalists. Fukuyama will then say that he always said tribes had legitimate grievances and they won out in the end.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 04/26/2019 - 10:42am
What drives me nuts is that you don't even realize that your are one and the same with Grover Norquist and Alito conservatives,your ideas are not liberal, in the end you don't want big federal government with a common good ethos, you want little tribes running their own worlds on a local level. Quakers in Pennsylvania, Catholics in Maryland, don't tread on me with your big gummint. I.E. Roger Williams, the dissenter who clashed with the Massachusetts Puritans over separation of church and state, founded the colony of Rhode Island to the south. Furthermore, you do it by race, you're racist, you seem to have a lot invested in making sure that everyone at Dagblog knows all people with black skin are different from everyone else, constantly, all the time. Why this crusade has to be done at Dagblog is the real mystery, given the audience here.
by artappraiser on Fri, 04/26/2019 - 12:16pm
Do I focus on issues of race? Yes. Do I trust gummint to have my interests at heart because of my race. No. Is it pity olympics? No. Do you deny that gummint is actively working to suppress black votes? Do you agree that on matters of health care, blacks suffer? Take black maternal mortality as one example. The black maternal mortality rate is about 3X higher than for white women. It took pressure for this issue to be pushed to the mainstream. A tribe made sure that this issue became important. If the tribe waited on the National Creed to address the issue, nothing would have happened.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/elizabeth-warren-black-maternal-mortality_n_5cc0e93fe4b0ad77ff7f717b
I prefer tribes protesting kidnapping of Latino babies and treatment of Muslims over your pity olympic critiques that waits for the national creed to address a problem.
Edit to add:
You don’t get to decide the common good. The country would have had Martin Luther King Jr. halt protests because the Russians could use the racial dissent to attack capitalism and promote communism as a better alternative.
by rmrd0000 on Fri, 04/26/2019 - 2:34pm
The element of the analysis that I have been objecting to is how his theory of motivation is applied to provide a replacement for stated goals in some instances and as a proof of intent in others. As a part of his story for what is going on, it suffers from a surplus of binary thinking.
The reason people work as a group has as much to do with conditions placed upon them as any psychological drive of individual participants to do what they do. There is no compulsion in Fukuyama's system, only exclusion versus inclusion.
So when people try to change things, it is not just because "they" want to be seen in the Ralph Ellison sense of identity but because they want the situation to change. And there are limited number of ways of that happening. Fukuyama claims that people want groupiness for their own sake. Actual groups are made up of people who can barely tolerate each other.
by moat on Fri, 04/26/2019 - 9:38pm
How Nationalism Can Destroy a Nation
Citizens must have things in common and must also agree to forget many other things.
By Lewis Hyde Lewis Hyde is the author of, most recently, “A Primer for Forgetting: Getting Past the Past.”
@ NYTimes.com, Aug. 21, 2019
by artappraiser on Wed, 08/21/2019 - 11:09pm
by artappraiser on Sat, 09/05/2020 - 8:18pm
Fukuyama has argued for a long time which kinds of agents can change a situation or not. I don't see any reason to discuss him without referring to these propositions.
by moat on Sat, 09/05/2020 - 8:31pm