MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop
![]() |
MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
Comments
Many have observed that white women benefit from white supremacy so that voting for the current GOP serves their interests.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/opinion-white-women-gop-midterms-white-supremacy_us_5bef0f98e4b0b84243e23e3b
Laua Ingraham does not hide her bigotry. The GOP Senate candidate in Mississippi feels free to “joke” about racism. Megyn Kelly is OK with blackface. White women have no problem calling police on black people for making them feel “uncomfortable”. We expect white women to have a set of ethics that we do not expect from white men.
There is a book coming out in February, “They Were Her Property” by Stephanie E. Jones- Rogers, documenting white female slave-owners. White women benefiting from white supremacy has been present since the founding of the country
https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300218664/they-were-her-property
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 11:11am
"Many have observed that white women benefit from white supremacy so that voting for the current GOP serves their interests." - and black Americans benefit from genocide of Yemenis through lower gas prices, government tax revenues from increased arms sales, and increased Mideast stability by scaling back Iranian intrigues, among other reasons, so that voting for the current GOP serves their interests.
See how easy it is to play that game? Please note that "white women" are not all joined at the hip, and attributing clone-like behavior to the whole group is both racist and sexist. But you knew that, right?
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 12:56pm
The article is about Republican women casting votes that support white supremacy
From the article you posted
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 7:03pm
White women benefiting from white supremacy has been present since the founding of the country
Splain to me how my Polish immigrant grandma benefited from white supremacy. She never learned to read and never learned more than a few words of English. At 17 she somehow got to Germany from a farm in Poland breadbasket area to get a job as a maid to earn boat fare to the U.S. In 1909 she made the trip at 19 with her female cousin who was turned back at Ellis Island for suspected tuberculosis. She got to Wisconsin on her own where some distant relatives were, also recent immigrants and again worked as a maid, in a boarding house. There she met and married a guy from the same little town in Poland who spoke a little English and could read. He worked in a foundry. They had seven children and bought a rickety farmhouse and a plot of land and she and the kids worked the farm while dad worked full time in the foundry. They almost lost it all many times during the Depression but somehow survived to sell the land at retirement age, for a pittance before the area was developed. They bought a little retirement house and lived off Social Security. After he died, she rapidly declined into dementia. My mother, her daughter, cried to me when that happened, saying "she had such a lousy life and worked like a dog, she doesn't deserve this."
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 2:12pm
I’m not certain about the years under discussion. Social Security, when initially instituted, excluded a large number of black workers.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 7:06pm
Sorry, I just really don't see any benefit in this world to playing Victim Olympics. If you don't like me applying it to the black situation, then think of how you might feel about some born in the U.S. Jewish-American screaming "because there was the Holocaust!" as an excuse for Israel treating Palestinians like crap.
Deal with what white privilege does today, not what it did 75 years ago.
Talking like people alive today to pay for sins of their ancestors is simply not a viable political activity, it is totally counter-productive. It's a very backward and tribal thing to do. Divisiveness is divisive.
People with black skin get Social Security now. Move on, move forward, the common good now if not back then.
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 7:24pm
You asked how your relative benefited from white supremacy. I gave one answer.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 7:33pm
Another is that she could drink from a public water fountain.
by Flavius on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 10:46pm
Lol
White privilege does not mean that every white person is doing well. What it acknowledges is that there are things in place in society that benefit white people. Social Security was one example. Black soldiers had less access to home loans compared to white soldiers. Blacks were not paid the same amount of money for the same jobs. The rigging of the economic system is one things many people ignore.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 11:16pm
well minor point but in Wisconsin while everyone could always drink from them, they don't actually have water fountains, they have bubblers.
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 4:15am
We can always make the stretch and find a way someone benefits from historical white supremacy. Do you or any of your ancestors own land or a home? It was stole from the natives by white supremacists. Buying it from the thieves does not absolve you. Knowingly buying stolen property is a crime. Being negatively affected by white supremacy doesn't give you the right to take advantage of others who are also negatively affected by white supremacy. It actually seems worse to me because with that experience you should know better. That's one way you likely benefit from white supremacy. I'm sure I can come up wth others. It seems to me you have likely benefited more from white supremacy that arta's grandma.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 11:29pm
I was on a bus in 1953 taking soon to be officers from Fort Sill into Lawton OK., One Black, the rest whites who'd already endured training specifically intended to be so painful ( if you cracked and slugged an officer - which happened -you were dropped with no other punishment ) that if you were apt to break down in combat you'd do it at Sill.
When the Bus left the Fort the driver stopped it and told the Black to go to the rear. I went with him of course but only white supremacy forced him .
by Flavius on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:27am
When I got out of the army in 1981 I was processed out in California. Travel arrangements to my home town in PA were made right on the post. I decided to take a bus across America just to see the country. If I could I always sat in the back of the bus.
If you're wondering what that has to do with your comment than you can understand what I felt when I read your comment. Of course this comment has more to do with yours in that we both discussed buses, sitting in the back, and the military while your comment was a total non sequitur.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:54am
Sorry. But maybe not a total non sequitur.
An example of white supremacy alive and well long after, AA's grandmother endured her privations. Which I in no way disparaged.
Just pointed out she was spared that particular evil. Or ,as I threw in elsewhere , that of being thirsty.
Or, generalizing , not only being prevented from sharing the few otherwise public benefits but meanwhile continually reminded she was being prevented because she was considered inferior.
You may have seen some examples of the post cards taken at Lynchings. A social event,Large crowd . Talking with one another. Children. What's Auden's line " who did not specially want it to happen , skating on a pond at the edge of the wood" ?
Unspeakable
by Flavius on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 11:47am
I think you are going to need a chiropractor to treat you for all the twisting you did in that comment.
Edit to add: Regarding housing, 98% of home loans issued between 1934 and 1962 went to white families https://www.forbes.com/sites/brianthompson1/2018/02/18/the-racial-wealth...by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 8:05am
What a bitchy little comment - up your game.
And overall you're wrong - 1/3 of blacks had Social Security originally, and it was extended to all by 1954. The exclusion of farm workers initially would have excluded her grandmother as well. And the original exclusion of farmworkers wasn't for racist reasons - it was because they had no good way to collect social security tax for what, the 60% of Americans who worked on a farm without an actual paycheck to deduct from.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/06/03/a-second-look-at-...
[ETA: 55% urban, 45% rural during the 1930's. Obviously not all rural work was "farming" - 20-25% of the economy was "agriculture" when Social Security was enacted, less than 10% when the final additions of farm sector were made (presumably a great deal of that sector in the Great Depression wasn't actually working as Oklahoma turned into a dust bowl, so I'm not sure what would have been deducted from those non-existent paychecks)]
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:54am
66% of black workers did not have access to Social Security originally. That means that a majority of blacks did not have access to Social Security benefits initially
From your WaPo article:
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 7:11am
For perspective when Social Security was instituted, 73% of whites had access while 66% of blacks did not have access. The number of blacks who had access was almost the same as the percentage of whites who did not have access.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 8:19am
Why are you quoting the article back to me? I said 1/3 of black workers were covered initially, which means 2/3 or 66.6% were not.
Then you quote the oft-repeated sinister intentions view of how the racists did this to screw black people that arose in the 90's, when the whole point of the article is to discuss research pointing out lack of means to deal with payments for the hard-to-reach agricultural sector rather than racism (remember, banks were going bankrupt, people were losing their farms and moving around, roads weren't nearly as good as when the interstate started to go in, etc.).
So apparently they covered the sectors they could cover, and left the rest for later.
Read the fascinating report for yourself: https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v70n4/v70n4p49.html
An excerpt on the race question
Followup section then goes on to explain that the "South" wasn't so monolithic in economy and culture, as well as:
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 10:15am
Here is what blacks experienced
Authorizing Lower Pay Scales for Blacks
The National Recovery Administration, intended to reduce “destructive competition” and to help workers by setting minimum wages and maximum weekly hours, not only offered whites the first crack at jobs, but authorized separate and lower pay scales for Blacks, according to the site Digital History.
Keeping Blacks Out of White Neighborhoods
The Federal Housing Administration was created by Congress in 1934 to insure loans for construction and repairs of homes. White middle-class families could buy suburban homes with little or no down payments and extended 30-year amortization schedules and their monthly charges were often less than rents the families had previously paid to housing authorities or private landlords. But the FHA had an explicit policy of not insuring suburban mortgages for African-Americans, according to writer Richard Rothstein on the The American Prospect website. In suburban New York’s Nassau County, just east of Queens, Levittown was built in 1947 containing 17,500 mass-produced two-bedroom houses, requiring nothing down and monthly payments of about only $60. At the FHA’s insistence, developer William Levitt did not sell homes to Blacks, and each deed included a prohibition of such resales in the future.
Social Security Excluded Most Blacks
The Social Security Act of 1935, which provided a safety net for millions of workers by guaranteeing them an income after retirement, excluded from coverage about half the workers in the American economy. Among the excluded groups were agricultural and domestic workers — job categories traditionally filled by Black workers.
Killing the Crops
The Agricultural Adjustment Administration reduced agricultural production by paying farmers subsidies not to plant on part of their land and to kill off excess livestock, which in turn reduced crop surplus and effectively raised the value of crops. But since 40 percent of all Black workers made their living as sharecroppers and tenant farmers, the (AAA) acreage reduction hit Blacks hard, according to Digital History. White landlords could make more money by leaving land untilled than by putting land back into production. As a result, the AAA’s policies forced more than 100,000 Blacks off the land in 1933 and 1934. The act initially required landowners to pay the tenant farmers and sharecroppers on their land a portion of the money, but after Southern Democrats in Congress complained, the secretary of agriculture surrendered and reinterpreted the act to no longer send checks to sharecroppers directly.
Roosevelt Refuses to Support Anti-Lynching Bill
The president disappointed Black leaders by failing to support an anti-lynching bill and a bill to abolish the poll tax. Roosevelt feared that conservative Southern Democrats, who had seniority in Congress and controlled many committee chairmanships, would block his bills if he tried to fight them on the race question. In 1938, liberal congressmen attempted to pass federal anti-lynching legislation to halt the most horrific type of anti-Black terrorism. Southern Senators angrily filibustered, and FDR defied Black leaders and his own wife by refusing to throw his support behind the measure
Roosevelt Let Southern Racists Spurn Blacks
Roosevelt’s need to accommodate Southern racists often complicated the implementation of his programs, according to Digital History. Distribution of relief in the South, for example, slowed to a trickle because Southern relief administrators didn’t want to distribute money to Blacks. One Georgia relief agent told Roosevelt’s emissary Lorena Hickok that “any N*gger who gets over $8 a week is a spoiled N*gger, that’s all … The Negroes regard the President as the Messiah, and they think that … they’ll all be getting $12 a week for the rest of their lives.”
Roosevelt’s Programs Widened the Gap Between Blacks and Whites
Ira Katznelson, a political science and history professor at Columbia University, in his book, ”When Affirmative Action Was White,” contends that Roosevelt’s programs not only discriminated against Blacks, but actually contributed to widening the gap between white and Black Americans — judged in terms of educational achievement, quality of jobs and housing, and attainment of higher income. Arguing for the necessity of affirmative action today, Katznelson contends that policymakers and the judiciary previously failed to consider just how unfairly Blacks had been treated by the federal government in the 30 years before the civil rights revolution of the 1960s.
Gaping Disparity in Treatment of White and Black Soldiers
By October 1946, the G.I. Bill had placed 6,500 former soldiers in nonfarm jobs in Mississippi; 86 percent of the skilled and semiskilled jobs were filled by whites, 92 percent of the unskilled ones by Blacks. In New York and northern New Jersey, fewer than 100 of the 67,000 mortgages insured by the G.I. Bill supported home purchases by nonwhites. Discrimination continued as well in elite Northern colleges. The University of Pennsylvania, along with Columbia the least discriminatory of the Ivy League colleges, enrolled only 46 Black students in its student body of 9,000 in 1946. The traditional Black colleges did not have places for an estimated 70,000 Black veterans in 1947. At the same time, white universities were doubling their enrollments and prospering with the infusion of public and private funds, and of students with their G.I. benefits.
————————
There was a concerted effort keep blacks in their place
https://atlantablackstar.com/2015/02/04/9-ways-franklin-d-roosevelts-new-deal-purposely-excluded-blacks-people/5/
Given the obstacles, I don’t view the Social Security decision as benign. The goal was to keep blacks from benefiting from government programs
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 11:11am
So when losing an argument, you just throw more extraneous data at it. Brilliant strategy.
BTW, at the time of the proposed lynching law, there hadn't been any lynchings in 3 years, the next one would come 4 years later, with a total of 11 lynchings listed from 1942 to 2008. So what exactly are you trying to solve?
I imagine some of your other little blurbs are as useless, though some are probably relevant and factual.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 11:35am
The argument in the ssa.org article goes against the conclusions of the majority of analyses of the reasons that blacks were excluded. I included the other data to provide context for the time period. At the end of the day, an overwhelming majority of whites were able to use Social Security at the onset of the program and an overwhelming majority of blacks were not. That give a major advantage to whites.
A 2016 study from Washington University details the impact on the black community
https://csd.wustl.edu/publications/documents/wp16-17.pdf
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:02pm
Excellent summary.
FDR swept the south in every election from 1932 to 1944. He could not do that without tolerating all the legal State by State racist laws in the South.
Truman, on the other hand, supported Civil Rights for all Americans. On June 29, 1947, as the first president to address the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), Harry Truman pledged his support for upholding the civil rights of all Americans. Truman paid a price for that in '48.
Why? In 1948, Strom Thurmond split the Democrat ticket, ran on a State's Rights, pro-lynching platform, and he won SC, MS, AL and LA.
There would never have been a "progressive revolution" in the 1930's without the political and economic oppression of blacks. By Jim Crow and the general exclusion of people of color from the new benefits as RM points out. Whites were all for government aid, as long as it was for them. Racism still works today, and it's why the GOP exploits it every election, and why whites (not all but enough) so often "vote against their own interests".
by NCD on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 11:38am
Would add, that American race laws were so thorough that the Nazi's used them in Germany. See
Hitler's American Model The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law, Whitman.
Note that the Nuremburg Laws were not related to the Nuremburg post-war trials, but Nazi laws passed in the late 30's.
by NCD on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 11:49am
Thanks, NCD.It is a sad history. We now have a President who sympathizes with white supremacists and elected Republicans comfortable with attending meetings with bigots.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:12pm
This is a great, clear and effective way to summarize the issue, NCD. It shows how politics exploited the racist and tribalist leanings of a significant portion of the white underclass rather than try to change them to think of "the common good."
While blanket statements about "all whites", making all people with white skin responsible, is merely perpetuating the old situation of tribal division. Where some tribes try to step on other tribes to get to the top and other tribes prefer to argue about which tribe had and has the most suffering, as if winning that prize gets them something.
To bring us back to the present: one of main "accomplishments" of Trump is that has ridiculously turned the latter on its head. Where the poor whites male tribe with subordinate females is the most aggrieved and the last to benefit from government largesse. A phenomenon that is happening elsewhere in the world. This is one reason why I find racial identity politics statements like many that rmrd uses especially detrimental. It's just feeding the frenzy, a fight to the death on who has the most egregious and unfair situation. It's going backwards. Common good arguments are the answer. It's not 1930 anymore. Many of the descendants of olden days racist lower class whites now admire rap music and black baskeball players. The situation has changed and race card playing can lose elections rather than win them. Those that try that sometimes end up having to fiddle with election laws and process because results are no longer the same.
As in: not all Republican women are racist and wholehearted Trump supporters, who knew? Don't treat them like they automatically are just because their great grandparents were racist and maybe some of them will vote for you.
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:16pm
Common good, yes. But also just Good.
People not only want to have a good health plan. They want to be "Good".
by Flavius on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:24pm
What I see here is that you've been forced into taking a more nuanced and scholarly approach to the issue when you instead started out with these offensive, divisive and racist blanket comments: Many have observed that white women benefit from white supremacy so that voting for the current GOP serves their interests and White women benefiting from white supremacy has been present since the founding of the country.
That Peracles forced you to "up your game." Members here tend not to like angry agitprop and stereotyping, whether it is from you or from Peter Unverified and are going to challenge, just like they might challenge similar stereotyping statements from Donald Trump.
P.S. And still I think it behooves to point out: someone like my grandma had nothing to do with any of this. She had white skin. But she didn't vote, she was illiterate, she was an unpaid agricultural worker (olden times "stay at home mom" as it were) and she had a shitty life. You do yourself no service including her in your jihad against what you call "white supremacy". That world was one built and run mostly by elite educated WASP's. One in which black men could at least have the hope of getting more types of jobs than any woman of any color could.
and a P.P.S. on your question "what time period are we talking about": like many of the huge flood of immigrants in the early years of the 20th century, my grandfather started collecting Social Security in the 1950's. Many came as teenagers and 20-somethings in the early years of the 20th century and were reaching retirement in the 1950's. I don't see how they nor their progeny should be held responsible for slavery or Jim Crow unless they voted for openly racist Democrats in the 30's and Republicans in later years when they got the right to vote.
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 11:46am
Your grandparents began collecting Social Security in the 1950s, that was about the time that the program opened to the majority of blacks. In essence, blacks were being treated as immigrants.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:09pm
So here you agree with Trump that immigrants should be a lower class status than American born blacks? Or what? Very sad comment as written so I am going to quote it in case it gets changed:
Your grandparents began collecting Social Security in the 1950s, that was about the time that the program opened to the majority of blacks. In essence, blacks were being treated as immigrants.
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:19pm
Furthermore, you are backtracking here on earlier apparent agreement that the problem really was that agricultural workers were not initially included. That more blacks were agricultural workers at the time of institution of Social Security because those blacks knew no other work because they hadn't made the mass migration flight north yet, does not make the institution of Social Security a racist program. It was "prejudiced" against workers without paychecks. Of all colors. Every single fucking thing is not about color of skin. You think just like Trump and Bannon sometimes, a conspiracy of color of skin everywhere.
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:26pm
This is about fucking skin color. Southern Democrats didn’t want to see fucking blacks benefiting from a government program. Read the fucking studies that the ssa.gove article sugarcoats.
Edit to add:
The majority of blacks were excluded from a program available to a majority of whites. That has racial impact
Having voter ID that excludes forms of identification used by a significant number of blacks is also discriminatory.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 1:36pm
The point arta and PP are raising is not whether a policy affected more blacks than whites but whether it was designed to affect more blacks than whites. That it affected more blacks than whites is not in contention. But it was not designed for that purpose. You produced nothing to support the contention that it was designed to discriminate against blacks.
This is similar to your argument that hair dress codes are racist. They seem to affect blacks more than whites but they were not designed with that purpose in mind. Dress codes have a bias towards neatness and order. They affect anyone with thick and curly hair that tends to be unruly. My sister had constant problems with the dress code and hated her thick and curly hair. I had some problems too but to a lesser degree as my hair is thin and curly and I'm a man. The problems some white women and girls have with their curly hair is a common meme in movies, the most recent in the Princess Diaries. Most dress codes aren't designed with racist intent even though in the end they tend to affect blacks more than whites.
Voter ID regulations are not like SS or dress codes in that they are specifically designed with racist intent from the very beginning.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:00pm
The lead in to the ssa.org article list some of the literature regarding racial bias in the early stages of Social Security
In recent years, some scholars have argued that the U.S. Social Security program—like some other social institutions—is biased against women and African Americans. One major contention along these lines involves the original coverage exclusions of the Social Security Act of 1935.
The 1935 act limited its provisions to workers in commerce and industry (this is what is known as the program's "coverage"). This meant that the new social insurance program applied to about half the jobs in the economy. Among those left out were farm and domestic workers. Contemporary scholars have looked at this provision of the 1935 act, realized that a disproportionate number of African Americans were in these two occupational groups, and concluded that the disproportionate impact is evidence of a racial bias as the motive for this coverage exclusion.
An important key to the argument is the additional assumption that Southern Democrats in Congress were the agents who engineered this restrictive coverage policy. Thus, the full argument is that Southern Democrats in Congress—motivated by racial animus—moved to block African Americans from participation in the new Social Security program and that this was the reason for the provision excluding farm and domestic labor (Gordon 1994; Brown 1999; Lieberman 1995; Williams 2003; Poole 2006).
The Race Explanation
The description of Social Security's restrictive coverage policy has become so epigrammatic that it has passed over from historical narrative to background historical fact; it has been assumed and repeated as a basic datum about the program's origin.
For example, one recent labor-history text summed up the issue of Social Security and race this way:
One of the strongest early statements of the thesis was given by Robert C. Lieberman (1995, 514–515), who asserted, "The Old Age Insurance provisions of the Social Security Act were founded on racial exclusion. In order to make a national program of old-agebenefits palatable to powerful Southern congressional barons, the Roosevelt administration acceded to a Southern amendment excluding agricultural and domestic employees from OAI coverage."
Linda Gordon (1994, 514–515) in her influential study of the welfare state, merged a discussion of the public assistance titles of the 1935 Social Security Act with the contributory social insurance title and offered a misleading critique of both: "Social Security excluded the most needy groups from all its programs, even the inferior ones. These exclusions were deliberate and mainly racially motivated, as Congress was then controlled by wealthy southern Democrats who were determined to block the possibility of a welfare system allowing blacks freedom to reject extremely low-wage and exploitive jobs as agricultural laborers and domestic servants."
Alston and Ferrie (1999, chapter 3), in their book Southern Paternalism and the American Welfare State, offered a variation on this account. They argued that class—in the form of racially based landlord/tenant paternalism—played a stronger role than simple race prejudice or other factors, such as federalism, in shaping the programs under the Social Security Act in general and relative to the coverage exclusions in particular.
Probably the best detailed look at the exclusion issue in the academic literature is provided by Lieberman (1998)—Shifting the Color Line. Lieberman did not suggest that any members of Congress were the direct agents of the coverage exclusions, although he did imply that the coverage exclusions were some-how engineered by Southern members of Congress. Here, for example, is one way he described the exclusions: "the CES's [Committee on Economic Security] decision that all workers should be covered came under immediate and persistent question at the hearings … In the end, an important step behind congressional acceptance of a national program of old-age insurance was the racial manipulation of the program's target population so that a national program was sure to be a segregated one" (39). At another point he summarized the history this way: "In order to pass national old-age and unemployment insurance plans, the Roosevelt administration had to compromise inclusiveness and accept the exclusion of agricultural and domestic employees from the program, with notably imbalanced racial consequences" (25).
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:10pm
I also provided a link to a 2016 article from Washington University
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:15pm
The vast majority of your post is simply a restatement of the a priori assumption that a policy that has a racial impact was designed with racist intent. I don't accept that premise nor do I think you have proven it.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:32pm
I’ll refer you to a review of “When Affirmative Action was White” detailing the discriminatory government programs of the 1930s and 1940s. The wealth gap between races increased.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/28/books/review/when-affirmative-action-...
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:44pm
Well to be fair, maximizing grievance on behalf of a tribe is not the same thing as seeking truth, it's political action. And one gold medal in the Victim Olympics is not enough, he's got to have all of them. And it's never going to be over until every single person on Dagblog not only says amen to this program of stretching the truth, but goes forth and preaches it, too.
by artappraiser on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:51pm
Worse, he ignores completely the new research I linked and quotesd at length that rather debunk the 1970's version, but no, if the facts don't fit, just keep repeating the mumbo jumbo.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:51pm
No. I am pointing out the blacks, who had been in the United States were only able to receive Social Security benefits around the time that your grandparents were able to draw Social Security. There is nothing that I need to change. The majority of of black workers were essentially treated as foreigners. The blacks worked hard, your grandparents worked hard. Blacks had to wait to have access to Social Security benefits.. What did I say that was not factual?
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:29pm
BTW, you forgot the 2nd Wave of Migration in all your verbiage.
So between 1930 & 1960, black employment went from 10.5 million in agriculture to 6 million, while growing in manufacturing from 10 to 17 million, trade from 8 to 14 million, and another 1.5m increase for construction.
So this purported evil scheme to keep the black man down failed miserably simply because much of the black population was moving north & to the cities, and mechanization was decimating employment in agriculture. Meaning also that pretty much all those in new jobs were eligible for social security within a very short time after Social Security was enacted, while I'd bet that there wasn't a helluva lot the average farm worker could have put in that trust fund.
Why again are we discussing this? I thought this was about the futility of converting conservative white women to Democrats, and you turned it into how white women are white supremacists and now how badly blacks were mistreated through the years. GO GET YOUR OWN MOTHERFCKING THREAD.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 1:33pm
I pointed out that white women benefited from white supremacy. A comment about a grandmother appeared. I give a response regarding Social Security. There was another comment about water fountains.You and AA responded.
The article you posted quotes Rebecca Traister and references Brittney Cooper discussing how white women benefit from white supremacy.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 1:44pm
She also mentioned Ted Cruz, so why didnt you launch into trivia about Cuba? This whipping out the standard litany of racial issues, related or not, going back centuries while we discuss current events, to jam up tje thread just gets old. Where's Waldo? He's looking for the racial angle. Pony's only got 1 trick.
by PeraclesPlease on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:44pm
It was the article you posted and the quote directly addressed why white women feel comfortable voting for racists and bigots.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 2:46pm
Yet another example of why I don't like to read her.
The whole rant is based on the logical fallacies of straw man and false dilemma here: those who believe it’s possible to flip female Trump supporters on a mass scale are overlooking how unwilling these women are to give up the benefits that white supremacy and patriarchy have bestowed upon them.
Who the hell wrote or claimed "Trump supporters" of any sex can be flipped? "Trump supporters" is not at all the same group as "Republicans" or "lean Republican" or swing voters
Jessica Valenti has always thrived on outrage, throws out simplified rants without nuance to rile up some troops to share the outrage. She's basically the left version of Ann Coulter. And mho, she has harmed feminist goals a great deal by doing that in the past.
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 1:47pm
Her name's familiar, but I don't know her - just in this case, for those too entranced with ponies, thought her caveat was worth noting - we don't know if there will ever be a significant exit of white female GOP voters, and counting on it is too optimistic. Nothing more.
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 2:21pm
Actually, I have a sneaking suspicion her argument is aimed at Ocasio Cortez fans who have a kind of Bernie Sanders thing going on:
Ocasio-Cortez backs campaign to primary fellow Democrats @ Politico
The incoming congresswoman endorses an effort by the group Justice Democrats to make the House Democratic Caucus more liberal and diverse by taking on incumbents.
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 2:26pm
She was elected to serve her constituents and bring new blood. As long as she's not doing something insane like kneecapping Pelosi when we need to come out blazing Jan 5 or whenever, she has my support, even if I can disagree with some of her policies. (She doesn't come across as a Quisling like Tulsi, nor obstinate like Bernie)
by PeraclesPlease on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 2:57pm
Another "just sayin'" big picture reminder of how nobody has been chasing or trying to persuade "Trump supporters", but they may indeed have been doing that with those who often vote Republican:
I actually think is quite counterproductive to equate the two groups, to slam people who prefer some Republican policies with "you like Trump." There is a blue wave right now precisely because Trump has turned off so many Republican leaners and swings, and even registered Republicans, not because a majority has turned pro kumbaya liberal Dem.
Actually goes both ways, actually, as Republican governors Charlie Baker of Massachusetts and Larry Hogan of Maryland are very popular with their majority blue electorates right now.
I see do partisanship making some of the left blind to the reality of independent voting with lack of partisan fervor.
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 8:50pm
p.s. I also think it behooves to remember that it was about health care, stupids. Identity issues of things like feminism and race and all the other things Trump stokes with his minority tribe of fans wasn't probably the thing that got so many off the couch and into the voting booth. And now in California, it may be about fires and raking the forest floors, where even the Republican type small town retired white women may not be so happy with him.
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 9:00pm
p.p.s. and on California, here ya go, one of the first things I ran across just now checking Twitter:
by artappraiser on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 9:10pm
People who voted for Trump were willing to overlook his racism. When Trump turns on them, he becomes a problem.
Edit to add:
We have to keep in mind that these voters were willing to overlook racism, misogyny, bigotry, etc. Keeping this in mind is important. We might think that a person upset with Trump becomes a Democrat. The truth is that many who dislike Trump still support his policies. If another Republican candidate is just as racist as Trump, but does not come across as boorish as Trump will have the support of many Republican voters.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 9:36pm
It's a question of degree.
The cliche exchange example used to be:
Churchill: Madam, would you go to bed with me for a million pounds.?
Lady so and so:."Yes."
Churchill :would you go to bed with me for a pound?
Lady, offended , "What do you think I am".
Churchill: we settled that,now we're bargaining about your price.
Not knowing any perfect people I' m not "shocked , shocked" to hear that the attorney who argued that President "disgraced the legal system and the American people by having sex with a 22 year old"
was himself outraged at the unfairness of the Senate's attempt to enquire what he'd had in mind when intended with the 15 year old he and his buddy attempted to strip on an upstairs bed.
A useful but now outmoded expression : "It all depends
whose oxe is gored."
by Flavius on Sun, 11/18/2018 - 11:57pm
I think that the people who bolted the GOP because of disgust with Trump have already left. A few suggested voting for Democratic candidates to send a message to the GOP.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 7:16am
Could be , or not.
Marketeers automatically do market segmenting. Let's try.
oCertainly there are Republicans who aren't disgusted with him at all and never will be, See ya.
o some who are disgusted but will never become so disgusted to leave ,
o some disgusted . But trapped by conflicting convictions say on abortion . But like my one time friends behind the Divinity School are completely reachable on other issues on which they are equally passionate . For example , of course , health care. But also gerrymandering and voter suppression which they consider immoral per se and therefore reject because 'the end does not justify the means.'.
And finally (thought I'd never get here?) some number who are disgusted and could leave Trump if we play our cards right .
That's what we pay pollsters for . And until they supply data to the contrary, the useful strategy , says I , is first assume that number is more than zero and , whatever , try to increase it. Not by sacrificing our own principles as you and I have debated , but by identifying fights we don't have to have,( or can't win ) this year. And put on the back burner.
Even tho everyone likes a good fight ..Particularly here at Dagblog.
Maybe even more than winning !
by Flavius on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 11:16am
The “good people” are already out of the GOP.
There was a thought that Ivanka and Jared would be helpful, that proved to be false.
There was thought that Melania was different, that proved to be false.
Collins and Flake vote overwhelmingly with Trump
Steve King was re-elected
DeSantis was elected in Florida
Kemp was elected in Georgia
We keep expecting Lucy to keep the football steady.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 11:32am
Out of Washington. But not out of the GOP voters. That's too broad. And too self defeating.
I recall Churchill's remark in June 1941, Re Stalin.
" If the devil comes in on our side I'll work a favorable comment on Hades into next Question Time." Or FDR about some tin pot dictator in the Caribbean "He's a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch".
by Flavius on Mon, 11/19/2018 - 12:11pm