Down with doctrines

    I suppose it started with the Monroe doctrine, or maybe the John Smith one, but suddenly in the last two decades what was a handy icon has become a media substitute for examining the specific situation and its specific characteristics.

    So the Powell Doctrine: Don't attack unless you have overwhelming force. Or Desider's doctrine in So you want to be a millionaire Libyan: Don't try to assist a revolution unless the rebels have shown that they can hold a lot of the country.

    Both perfectly reasonable BTW.

    Until they become doctrines.

    On a talk show this week Leslie Gelb was asked to discuss the Obama doctrine. And refused. Because he objected to the practice of uneasily linking a particular set of conditions and designating the result a doctrine.

    I cheered.

    In no particular order, a random selection of the items in what I'll call the Media Doctrine includes: a clearly defined  exit strategy, a compelling national interest, allies, no increase in the deficit, a clear cut chain of command  US command, no boots on the ground, a UN declaration, indigenous democrats whom we're assisting, a tyrannical enemy, a circumscribed area of operations to prevent reinforcement. etc

    Reminds one of WWII's

    We invited the army to come to Tulagi 

    But General MacArthur said NO

    He gave as the reason it wasn't the season

    And besides there was no USO.

    The fallacy in this approach (here comes the Flavius doctrine) is that it states as absolutes what is actually a checklist of matters of degree to be employed in analyzing a particular situation.

    For example, maybe the compelling national interest doesn't need to be quite as compelling if we are assisting a powerful, popular democratic group of rebels. But if we're throwing in our lot with a less attractive organization then there has to be a damn good reason.

    Life isn't binary.

    In 19th century Harvard if you arrived for your first day as a student of Louis Agassiz you sat down at a desk. He came in and gave you a fish. And left.

    After a while he returned. New student: What am I supposed to do?

    A. Look at your fish.

    An hour passed. Same exchange.

    Etc.

    By the end of the day the student knew an awful lot about that particular fish. And gradually learned that they were all unique

    Comments

    I made it clear that exceptions can be drawn out of principles, but principles do not arise out of ad hoc, whimsical actions.

    You missed most of my doctrine's concerns (not necessarily disqualifying checklist, but helps give detail)

    - is a significant population truly behind the uprising, or is it the fleeting fancy of a few?

    - does the uprising have democratic principles, or is it just an alternate version of existing tyranny, kleptocracy or other vicious form of government? (e.g. complete subjugation of women?)

    - is the revolution non-violent or military at heart? Is there a philosophy, a unifying justified complaint? do people know what they want, or simply what they don't want?

    - is the uprising sustainable - people, philosophical message, resources, and basics to keep a society going? (or does it require mass transfer of resources to pretend, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan)

    Etc., etc.

    Odd that you give the fish example, but you want all (Arab?) uprisings to look the same - "hey, some people are disgruntled and have taken control of some towns, so let's send in NATO/UN, let's bomb, send in troops, drop mannah from heaven....  The more I look at this fish, the more it stinks.

    What is the realistic outcome of supporting this rebellion? Will we further the cause of democracy, or actually set it back (both in the country and in neighboring). Besides whether to support the rebellion, it's important *HOW*. One big issue is militarily or in other types of pressure, along with the messages and attitudes and alliances, etc. in carrying out this policy.

    Are cruise missiles the best and only way of supporting this uprising? Are cruise missiles the best way of putting the fear of God/destruction into Qaddafi and bringing about democracy? Are we doing all of this because of our past experience obsessed with the personality of Qaddafi (and because he's the easiest dog to kick), or is this a policy we can extend to other countries and regions, adapting slightly as need be?

     


    Humor about MacArthur aside, it's likely he was ordering his hops across the Pacific to get to Japan quickest. Stopping to take inessential islands, however in need they might be (of liberation or simply USO sock-hop) would have deviated from the most essential mission, to strike the homeland and end the war.

    With our Mideast conflicts stretching out over decades now, perhaps we should be getting our foreign policy focused on some realistic principles that help us and our long-term security and long-term efforts at ensuring democracy in the world.

    This could be an aggressive and moral foreign policy in diplomatic terms, better not a foreign policy focused only on military terms. It can be a "prepare and wait" policy - looking for countries ready to break with the past and then support them, vs. trying to plant seed on fallow ground. It can be a number of things, but naïve isn't one of them. Nor blatantly hypocritical. >700,000 refugees have fled the Ivory Coast over a democratic election that wasn't respected, as ArtAppraiser keeps noting ( http://dagblog.com/reader-blogs/c-te-d-ivoire-9558 ), but no one's excited about supporting *that* kind of democracy, they're looking for the shoot-em-up arcade game with the face of evil that looks a bit like Severus Snape from Harry Potter. So while we wax poetic about the humanitarian concerns in Libya, we don't give a flying f*** about violence and civilians in the Ivory Coast.

     


    I post on things like the Ivory Coast precisely because I think the liberal blogosphere is extremely myopic on foreign affairs. The coverage is out there by the better print media but many in the blogosphere natter on about MSM' myopia without seeing their own. Specifically if one would read liberal blogs only it seems that the world is made up of Arabs, Israelis, Persians and Pashtuns, and nobody else matters if they are seen to exist.

    Without having any concept of breadth of the problems in the world that come across the desk of the leaders of the major powers every day, it often strikes me as more than presumptuous, to the point of ridiculousness sometimes, to be opining on what a leader should be doing in any specific instance.

    It's not ever meant in the spirit of an Oppression Olympics, though that's the straw man that always gets dragged out if you say "but what about what's happening in the Congo?" on an Israel/Palestine thread. The point is that there are things happening in the Congo, in China, in India, at the IMF, that may be affecting the leaders' decisions on whatever is yur favorite topic to get outraged about. Heads of state don't have as much luxury of selective outrage, they have to look at all the angles, or should be doing so if they are doing their job.


    Who is this guy calling himself the "Desider" and who looks like professor Snape? If he's trying to play act me then he needs to know that he's not very funny (and he doesn't have some cool doctrines named after him like I do).

     


    I've been around for a long, long year, stole many a man's soul and fate.

    Whether you call that a "Doctrine" is your bag. Personally I always got along better with Doc Parnassus.


    He may be this guy:

     


    Actually I deliberately omitted most of your principles.  It would have been sort of like violating a copywrite to copy so many of them that it would appear I was claiming to be presenting your doctrine when inevitably it would be somewhat different from your views, We all (or at least I) cringe when someone retells our joke. 

    As to the fish, the longer Agassiz' new pupils looked at the fish the more distinguishing features they began to see.Because no two fish are exactly the same.  I'll go to your second post to comment on the balance of this one.  

     


    I don't for a second consider your questions or views naive. We can't know how many of them were considered by Obama's team but it sounds as if there was a throrough internal debate but not so thorough that it turned into paralysis by analysis.

    Who knows about Dugout Doug? My father in law commanded a cruiser and that was a (no doubt unfair) Navy song, sort of a sea chanty, to the tune of "Bless them all"

     


    You will love Juan Cole's new diary; he writes an open letter to the Lefties who are not supportive of the implementation of UNSC 1973, refuting the long list of objections point by point.  He comes out as an ardent cheerleader of the project, and exhorts us to learn to wallk and chew gum at the same time. 

    He doesn't, however, address one of mine, and that's why the US had to be involved at all. 

    Just a thought, but you seem pleased that there is no Obama Doctrine, agree with Gelb that there shouldn't be.  I chased down Gelb at the Daily Beast, and found this contradictory piece by Stephen Carter; I liked it.  He mentions a few of the same points Des does, and a few others that show he's thinking O should want to be ahead ot the curve, not playing catch-up on a case-by-case basis as a rule.

    One quasi-Obama Doctrine I see (cynically) is Kicking the Can Down the Road, and without naming all the spots I see this, the biggest is I/P, which is blowing up again so much that Gates went there this week, even to Ramallah!  And Kashmir as the critical mass at the core of strained-plus relations between India and Pakistan (the instability there being sort of a civil war between north and south again... and Al Qaeda affiliations).

    Just FYI, given the fact that no one really knows who the rebel forces are in Lybia, and the various reports surfacing from 2007 onward, lots of 'experts' are wondering if the country will end up being partitioned after Gadaffi falls, and Jabril and others are reportedly saying they're trying to get ready for a long stalemate that would make that more likely.  Of course the wild card being how far foreign forces would/will go to change that, which would mean a presence on the ground.

    Far too many Unknowns on this one; zounds.


    O should want to be ahead ot the curve, not playing catch-up on a case-by-case basis as a rule

    I disagee. I don't often opine on my general principles because really who cares WTF I or any individual thinks. But hey, it's Sunday, I feel like wasting time bloviating.

    That is exactly the kind of hubris about being able to foretell the future that I don't like in a leader. To me it often goes hand in hand with conservatism, where one believes that one can predict what will happen because there are certain principles that never change. The only principle I really believe in is that the only constant is change. The last couple of months in the world have been an extreme example of that. There's a lot of things I don't like about Obama, but this is not one of them.

    I think a lot of Americans have always tended to think the same way and are mistakenly labeled isolationist for it. They want reactive foreign policy, not proactive. Just one example is that enough of them bought it in George Bush's first campaign when he promised a humbler foreign policy against Al Gore's pendantic here's the things we should/must be doing in foreign policy (at least enough of them to have him selected by the Supreme Court. Laughing)

    Same thing stopped me dead in Stephen Carter's essay, right here:

    that we intend to take a hand in shaping what is to come out of the present chaos.

    To me that sounds like pure neo-con imperial hubris. If you do things by consensus of a group like the UN where there are incredibly competing interests, agendas and ideologies, the less chance for blowback, or at least taking all the blame for the blowback. You do it on your own and your crystal ball reading skills are guaranteed to get your blowback not of your imagining. Yet even with consensus, it still happens, look at WWI for an extreme example. The thing about the UN, though, is that it is based on a guiding principle of avoiding WW, formed precisely because of WW.


    I think I hear your position, AA, but I think you may be carrying such a concrete view of 'a doctrine'  too far.  By the way, I also disagree with Carter on several things, including that Obama meant to wind down the wars; if he did, he would.  End of subject.

    But what I hear from folks who wish for an even loose but substantive plan, isn't a vague or pretty speech that he can claim later he didnt overturn, is that an Obama Doctrine (even a loose one), could give him a sharper ear toward movements in the ME (he does have about a zillion employees who can act as 'ears', doesn't he?  And be just a little more attuned to the players, the longevity of the movements, and when to speak, and when not to speak, and what to say, and not to say.

    He was outdistanced by events in Tunisia, too frightened due to US intersts to support 'instability' of the Mubarek regine in Egypt, and we all know how much communication there was between Gates and the Egyptian military, Gates and Israel, la la la.  We won't know for thirty years, probably, what deals were struck, or assurances made, esp, IRT the deals between I and E.

    So Obama appears to have erred, IMO, too early in Libya, saying Gadaffi should step down, after which, there was Nothing. So Gadaffi got the message that it was a hollow call, and ran shit on the protestors.  He could have waited and assessed; no one would fault him except for some Republicans, IMO.  But there might have been ways he could have spoken THEN with the African Union, Turkey, the Arab League, to ASK them their opinions, and let them propose plans to forestall any major Gadaffi moves on the protestors.

    The Carter quote about 'having a hand in'?  Wow; I'd think that 'not haviong a hand in' was maybe like the Obama administration cutting funds for democracy lessons in Egypts: it might gain you some cred with Mubarek, but screw the pooch long-term.  Some think the Western NGOs are corrupt; they may be, but some are likely honest about teaching Democray-building 101 to (hopeful) emerging democracies.

    In Lybia?  Plenty of smart people think that NOW is the time to be asking the rebels if they'd like help in building s new form of governement...I don't know...even talk to them about the importance of all people, tribes, nationalities, cultures being represented in order to be strong.  On this you may be more cynical than I am, though it's true, ususally our 'help' comes with a price or a resource grab.

    Anyhoo, an overarching sense of what to listen for, what to act on, doesn't rule out that of course every nation is different; you create a false argument assuming that some planning and thinking and a few explanations would be set in stone. 

    And I don't understand your paragraph that ends with the smiley-guy at all; sorry.

    I saw on your live-blogging Libya that you were irritated about Lefties claiming 'it'a ll about the oil', and how (not quoting) you said it is, but that those of us who aren't living 95% oil-free lives shouldn't bitch, and showing your pragmatism. 

    But I find fault with that thinking.  It's like you want us to blame ourselves for the nation not having invested in enery alternatives, when in fact most of the Lefties I know have been involved in energy activism and conservation for literally decades.  And have been writing on the subject ad nauseum, too.  And writing against (pace) America's increasing hegemony and military intervention for American business interests for that amount of time, too, not to mention periodically risking ourselves in peaceful demonstrations for the same.  So, nope; you can't guilt me or most of us about our petro-use.  What? We should all move to the city to consime less?  Who will grow the food then?  Agribusiness?  Or do some of us stay where we are an plant hundreds of trees and crops that feed ourselves and our friends?

    Thought I'd put up the Juan Cole link again, just in case anyone missed it  still;  :o):

    http://www.juancole.com/2011/03/an-open-letter-to-the-left-on-libya.html

     


    Down with Doctrines, up with Policy Practitioners.


    I love your title. It's definitely an "ideology" I can get behind (being a fan of Oscar Wilde's Ideals are dangerous things. Realities are better. They wound, but they're better.Wink

    You might like this:

    In Libya, it was consensus vs clarity. I'm glad Obama went with consensus
    By Steve Negus, arabist.net, March 26, 2011

    (Negus' bio from The Nation: Steve Negus, who has worked as a journalist in Egypt since 1993, is the former editor of the Cairo Times.)


    I'll read. Just finished Juan Cole's impassioned statement recommended by Stardust.

    So Oscar has a fan besides Lady Windermere's (all right , all right, I'll stop)


    good one. Smile

    Here's a link to Juan Cole's post for others, and to be able to find it easy after some time has passed:

    An Open Letter to the Left on Libya, Juan Cole, Informed Comment, March 27, 2011

     


    Shorter Juan Cole - "standards? who needs standards?"

    He has to invoke Sudan instead of Ivory Coast or Yemen to "prove" why we'd be ineffective elsewhere.

    BP "couldn't possibly want" their contracts re-written - as if a recently liberated new nation of East Libya wouldn't be a sucker for a hard-sell from the liberators.

    We're doing regime change at the end of a barrel of a gun, while pretending we're not, but no bother, no regrets - it'll work out fine. Of course we were sure Mossadegh was a communist and had to be changed under the morals of that time, and Pinochet was dining in Moscow, arranging more Soviet "inspectors". So are these the examples of regime change Juan Cole wants to encourage, or does he have something in mind?

    (Though "having something in mind" goes against the value-free 2000 Supreme Court decision inspired consequence-free policy we're discussing - "it's easy low-hanging fruit, so we might as well take what might be a win and be happy about it"). And without the historical fighting of Iraq, Libya will likely be a bargain - no fractured society, more people interested in taking Italian lessons than fighting the new powers-that-be. But why is it wrong to expect that maybe someone in power could pronounce these optimistic assessments, than the rather bizarre "they rose up so we have to help them" which is so obviously rare in this world I'm just gob-smacked.)

    My interest is these countries joining the European Union for long-term stability, not in them becoming another ward of the US and KBR contractors. 

    While I prefer peaceful uprisings, I can also come up with criteria for supporting armed insurrections. But I can also imagine peaceful ways of bringing about the same thing, and I can imagine coming up with rough frameworks that give an idea what this process is about and what principles are there. But as Digby or Marcie Wheeler noted, we might then have to apply these standards to our friends like our BFF in Bahrain, or God forbid Saudi Arabia, and that's a bridge too far.

    So instead we'll stick with the "I'm doing it for humanitarian reasons and that's the last I have to say about it" excuse, and tell those Dirty Fucking Hippies who're always questioning Obama where they can shove it.


    He's definitely pro-rebel. And given his past opinions and his knowledge, I simply find that a positive encouraing thing. I just think he might know a bit more about the rebels than desider on the  dagblog.  Not that he couldn't be wrong and not that I am going to go on his opinion alone. But I am happy to see that he thinks he might work. No need to say: I want to see more nihilism from you, Juan!

    But keep in mind Juan Cole is not running this thing.

    The UN resolution is not pro-rebel, it's pro making Gaddafi cease fire.. And that only France has recognized the rebels. And that's probably the main thing bugging everyone else about France, a lot of the coalition willing to support the UN resolution, including Turkey with arms embargo,  disagrees with France on that  And maybe even *gasp * Obama-you know the guy that is so careful and cautious that he's not sure the Egyptian protestors will manange to accomplish anything and doesn't want to dis Mubarak too soon--agrees.

    If you're going to go with the "doctrine" that everyone in a coalition has to be on the same page,  I will just point out an example: we managed to fight and win WWII only by doing it with the Soviet Union.


    Certainly coalitions are made up of mixed interests.

    Some think Russia and China are happy to go along, as they get great joy in watching us dig into another mess.


    If I can rely on the chronology   in  "All the Shah's Men"  , when Kermit Roosevelt overthrew  Mossadech  Juan Cole would have been about one so he can be absolved of any complicityt. 

    Given the part of the world we're talking about   I'm tempted to employ  Cicero's technique of -praeteritio ( " I'll pass over  Cato's  sleeping with his neighbor's wife, and.etc etc..)- and pass over the  allusions to   Pinochet,the 2000 Supremes, or the other scoundrels you mention. Clearly you're just  using them as what ifs -examples of the possible  consequences of apply'ing Cole's indulgence of regime change.  

    In the spirit of Cole's

    I hope we can have a calm and civilized discussion of the rights and wrongs here 

    did any of Cole's comments affect you to the extent of  causing you to reconsider any of your positions? Arguing about the points of disgreement probably isn't going to get us anywhere.. Maybe exploring points of agreement would be more productive.. 

     

     


    did any of Cole's comments affect you to the extent of  causing you to reconsider any of your positions?

    Juan Cole makes a strong case in support of intervention in Libya. I imagine that it will reinforce the position of some, that it will sway some others to his conclusion, and it will give pause  and stimulate reflection among some who are strongly opposed to the intervention.  There is only one important paragraph dealing with one important argument with which I would argue. When he argues that oil is not a big factor in the decision, as opposed to my belief that it is an overwhelming factor, he does so with examples that have a larger explanatory context. That larger context, I believe, negates the conclusions he draws about the importance that stability in the oil market plays and of the importance of Libya in that market and the resulting importance those factors play in the decision to intervene. 
     
     First though, I would say that the rest of his argument could be accepted and intervention could be justified even if it is also the case that it would not happen minus access to Libya's oil being at risk.

     Another point to make before going on is that my arguments are premised on the concept of peak oil. I am not blindly ignorant enough to believe that markets are not manipulated and that unfair, and corrupt practices do not abound in the world of oil production, marketing, distribution and in gaining access to both proven and potential reserves. What I do believe is that oil is so expensive because it is so vital and it is in precariously short supply and that raises the stakes to the point that opportunity arrises for the  crooks to come in and manipulate and steal. It also creates the situation where some are willing and/or eager to deal with whoever controls a big supply of oil even if that person is an insane psychopath who uses the immense part of the oil profits he receives to crush any of his own people who threaten his power. Our country's decision makers as well as most of its population  has shown a willingness to overlook, or simply not pay enough attention to become outraged at the crimes of Gaddafi until it became impossible to ignore them.
     
     Below is a paragraph from Juan Cole's powerful statement with my critique.

     "Another argument is that the no-fly zone (and the no-drive zone) aimed at overthrowing Qaddafi not to protect his people from him but to open the way for US, British and French dominance of Libya’s oil wealth. This argument is bizarre. The US declined to do oil business with Libya in the late 1980s and throughout the 1990s, when it could have, because it had placed the country under boycott. It didn’t want access to that oil market,....."

    That ignores the fact that Libya's oil was still available on the world market. Oil is the first on wikipedia's list of highly fungible commodities. Libyan oil had exactly the same importance to the world market, whatever that was, after the U.S. stopped buying it as it did before. That importance grows every day with every drop of oil the world burns.

    "......which was repeatedly proffered to Washington by Qaddafi then. After Qaddafi came back in from the cold in the late 1990s (for the European Union) and after 2003 (for the US), sanctions were lifted and Western oil companies flocked into the country."

    Qaddafi's position didn't change in 2003. The Bush administration finally accepted yes for the answer to the  demands it had had in place for years and to which Qadaffi had been saying yes for years. It was largely, IMO, because Bush needed to show that forceful intervention in Iraq had made other Dictators see the light and give up their WMD programs. Bush needed a public relations victory in the worst way. He got one, in the worst way.   

    "US companies were well represented, along with BP and the Italian firm ENI. BP signed an expensive exploration contract with Qaddafi and cannot possibly have wanted its validity put into doubt by a revolution. There is no advantage to the oil sector of removing Qaddafi".

    That could be the position taken by the oil sector in regards to a particular situation in a particular country they had invested in. They want to make money and they were making money in Libya as it was being ruled by Qadaffi. Oil corporations do not have a soul and they demonstrate that every second of every day, but the U.S. government has a strategic interest in maintaining reliable access to a stable oil market and may make different choices when decisions about a single country are based on worries about an entire region.

     "Indeed, a new government may be more difficult to deal with and may not honor Qaddafi’s commitments. There is no prospect of Western companies being allowed to own Libyan petroleum fields, which were nationalized long ago."

    They would like to own the oil fields but will settle for profitable access. Oil companies have great influence with our government but I doubt they tried to affect the decision to intervene in this particular case. It wasn't their decision. If the U.S. is successful it will not hurt the oil companies situation.

     "Finally, it is not always in the interests of Big Oil to have more petroleum on the market, since that reduces the price and, potentially, company profits."


    I see no possibility for any individual oil producing state to put enough oil onto the market such that it would significantly reduce the world price of oil. Further, there is no country which would have that incentive. The whole purpose of OPEC was to keep any one country from flooding the market with oil and so to keep the price stable and high. I don't think OPEC any longer needs to try to protect their price  by setting production quotas among its members when the U.S. government as well as world demand is asking them to increase production.

     "A war on Libya to get more and better contracts so as to lower the world price of petroleum makes no sense in a world where the bids were already being freely let, and where high prices were producing record profits."

    A fear that world production of oil would fall even one percent below demand if Libya were to blow up and the resulting affects which  might include cascading economic problems could be sufficient motive to acknowledge  the evil nature of an old trading partner when that fool gets some big time internal opposition and decide to pick a side and hope to maintain enough influence to keep production humming along. They could hardly choose to support Qadaffi

     "I haven’t seen the war-for-oil argument made for Libya in a manner that makes any sense at all".

     I do not think Mr, Cole makes a strong rebuttal to the war for oil argument. 


     

    As a general response. Of course oil prices are fixed.I remember  a million years ago standing on the side of the dance floor at a famous law school while  earnestly and loudly  discussing the behaviour of some companies bearing a distinct similarity to the majors.(Says something about my social activities)  A young woman dancing by without more than momentarily diverting her full attention from her swain said  "Of course ,it's an oligopoly."  She didn't add "Stupid" but didn't need to.

    As to a couple of specific statements by either you or Juan 

    Oil corporations do not have a soul and they demonstrate that every second of every day

    Yes. And you can save space by deleting "Oil". And  add, the sun comes up in the east.  I could precipitate a storm of abuse by volunteering my view of the morality of this. But I won't .

    "Finally, it is not always in the interests of Big Oil to have more petroleum on the market, since that reduces the price and, potentially, company profits."

     

    Juan

    He's wrong. The price is,mostly  what  the oil companies want it to be.I say mostly because I have no basis to comment on the role played by various governments. But I'll  put it this way: no, repeat NO oil company ceo will be surprised by the price on say  April 15. 

    I don't conclude however that this was necessarily a war for oil.

    That doesn't mean I am emphatic that oil was irrelevant.Rather I'm agnostic. Oil affected the thinking of all the major players .But I don't know it caused anybody to decide to risk their life at Ajdabiya yesterday.. 


    Okay,

    1) I'm more persuaded by having civilians in protests than by having armed rebels. The CNN video from Benghazi is impressive. 

    2) I never assumed the "rebels are Al Qaeda" was accurate, though imagined it could be a small part of truth. The bigger truth is that these people are likely to be incompetent to run their own democratic and economically prosperous government, so someone is going to have to lend a lot of help. Not to say it shouldn't be done - likely much more rewarding with greater chance of success than Afghanistan - but it's not going to be a cakewalk.

    3) In practical terms, the money that was being skimmed off by Qaddafi might pay for some of the effort, but never underestimate the amount of corruption that can balloon during a revolution, even one moving to democracy (and that corruption can sidetrack the democracy as well)

    4) I'm much more persuaded about focusing on the ceasefire than the fan club for sponsoring the armed rebels. That doesn't even mean I don't support backing the rebels, but my main interest is peaceful civilian uprisings that overthrow dictatorships and move countries to democratic and relatively free market sustainable states. It's a test of character. Anyone can picke up a gun. Only responsible people can articulate a path to successful self-governance.

    5) Cole's "who cares about precedent" is unnerving. The whole reason Libyan uprising is possible is because of precedent. We give hope by having models that people can strive for to get to greater freedoms, to enlist positive support. Not every country will have a Mandela or Gandhi, but if the roadmarks from the UN are clear: "Engage in this kind of responsible behavior and we're likely to support you", we can actively encourage successful transformations of government, and discourage the Sierra Leone "everybody grab a gun" model. We need positive behavior and positive institutions to integrate Africa and Mideast into larger positive structures that encourage and assist both ethical and prosperous behavior..

    6) Did I mention that I'm more impressed actually that there are few professional soldiers in this? But I'm disturbed by the focus on military process, rather than what the path is to UN recognition of a new civilian government. As much time should be being spent identifying who's the class of leadership to take over and shepherd a fledgling democracy as how to arm rebels. That the EU politicians and military advisors don't know who the dissident leadership might be 1 1/2 months in is a major failure. Part of it is from a security vetting aspect - we DO need to know who we're supporting, and there are limits to which people can be palatable. Part is from timelines and practical steps - parallel to bombing, since we've already stepped into this, we need to be walking them towards self-governance and effective international alliance.

    7) To respond to ArtAppraiser, I understand that there are lots of arbitrary lines drawn in the desert, and spitting up an artificially formed nation state makes me no nevermind. *EXCEPT* that encouraging people to spin off breakway republics without having an international way of dealing with them, and helping ensure they can survive just invites civilian atrocity, more refugee situations, and suffering on a grand scale. Or it means we'll be babysitting for decades, like Bosnia and Kosovo.

    8) Much care is needed with the media - their main job is to sell ads and attract audience, not necessarily to get the story right. It's advantageous of them to build up an exciting story even if it doesn't fit the facts. The press is a sucker for access. Just because there's a story assuring great success doesn't mean the reporter hasn't jumped the shark, caught up in wishful thinking from the spirit of the times, or just spinning thread to attract viewers.


    Thanks.

    Certainly defensible positions. I'm probably going to leave it there . To be honest I don't want to make the intellectual effort -not to be convincing, who cares- but to get to what I really think.

    But thanks for your making that effort.


    Ok If I actually have something to say  I'll insert it.  

     

    1) I'm more persuaded by having civilians in protests than by having armed rebels. The CNN video from Benghazi is impressive. 

    2) I never assumed the "rebels are Al Qaeda" was accurate, though imagined it could be a small part of truth. The bigger truth is that these people are likely to be incompetent to run their own democratic and economically prosperous government,

    I recall when Kissinger predicted that Bangladesh would be an international basket case when it split from Pakistan. Turns out that it's better off separated from Pakista

    so someone is going to have to lend a lot of help. Not to say it shouldn't be done - likely much more rewarding with greater chance of success than Afghanistan - but it's not going to be a cakewalk.

    3) In practical terms, the money that was being skimmed off by Qaddafi might pay for some of the effort, but never underestimate the amount of corruption that can balloon during a revolution, even one moving to democracy (and that corruption can sidetrack the democracy as well)

    4) I'm much more persuaded about focusing on the ceasefire

    agree

    than the fan club for sponsoring the armed rebels. That doesn't even mean I don't support backing the rebels, but my main interest is peaceful civilian uprisings that overthrow dictatorships and move countries to democratic and relatively free market sustainable states. It's a test of character. Anyone can picke up a gun. Only responsible people can articulate a path to successful self-governance.

    5) Cole's "who cares about precedent" is unnerving. The whole reason Libyan uprising is possible is because of precedent.

    You and Cole are emphasizing such different meanings of the word that you may not really disagreeing but just talking past each other.There is the meaning referring to the things Justice Roberts follows -except when he doesn't. And there is the meaning you discuss just below. So I see no reason why I can't agree with both of you.And I do

    We give hope by having models that people can strive for to get to greater freedoms, to enlist positive support. Not every country will have a Mandela or Gandhi, but if the roadmarks from the UN are clear: "Engage in this kind of responsible behavior and we're likely to support you", we can actively encourage successful transformations of government, and discourage the Sierra Leone "everybody grab a gun" model. We need positive behavior and positive institutions to integrate Africa and Mideast into larger positive structures that encourage and assist both ethical and prosperous behavior..

    6) Did I mention that I'm more impressed actually that there are few professional soldiers in this?As am I.

    But I'm disturbed by the focus on military process, rather than what the path is to UN recognition of a new civilian government. As much time should be being spent identifying who's the class of leadership to take over and shepherd a fledgling democracy as how to arm rebels. That the EU politicians and military advisors don't know who the dissident leadership might be 1 1/2 months in is a major failure. Part of it is from a security vetting aspect - we DO need to know who we're supporting, and there are limits to which people can be palatable. Part is from timelines and practical steps - parallel to bombing, since we've already stepped into this, we need to be walking them towards self-governance and effective international alliance. Yes

    7) To respond to ArtAppraiser, I understand that there are lots of arbitrary lines drawn in the desert, and spitting up an artificially formed nation state makes me no nevermind. *EXCEPT* that encouraging people to spin off breakway republics without having an international way of dealing with them, and helping ensure they can survive just invites civilian atrocity, more refugee situations, and suffering on a grand scale. Or it means we'll be babysitting for decades, like Bosnia and Kosovo

    .I'll leave that to  AA  

     

    8) Much care is needed with the media - their main job is to sell ads and attract audience, not necessarily to get the story right.

    A mixed bag. Certainly you describe much of it. But life throws up exceptions. Sometime extrerme ones like a self seeking Boyo  Oscar Schindler behaving heroically. AOBTW , as did his straight- laced deeply religious wife  

    It's advantageous of them to build up an exciting story even if it doesn't fit the facts. The press is a sucker for access. Just because there's a story assuring great success doesn't mean the reporter hasn't jumped the shark, caught up in wishful thinking from the spirit of the times, or just spinning thread to attract viewers.

    Overall your position seems to  hang together altho it sounds patronizing to put it that way.

     

     


    Turkey is calling (loudly) for mediation between Gadaffi's government and the Transitional Natl. Council, and they want to mediate a cease-fire, says PM Erdogan.  They fear a stalemate could lead to another Iraq or Afghanistan, and Erdogan says Turkey is about ready to take over the harbor and airport at Benghazi to aid humanitarian relief.  This, as NATO reps are meeting in Brussels to arrange the takeover of the no-fly zone; maybe the no-drive zones, too. 

    He, of course, mentions oil.


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/27/libya-turkey-mediators-prime-minister


    Thanks, I'm glad I read that. I think I am cheering for Turkey right now. They might be swinging enough weight and might be the most legitimate NATO country to throw their opinion around and the one with the closest  by far understanding of the situation and possibilities, and the one with the best and most honest motivations. There is electricity in the air and it is sizzling pretty loud in Turkey's back yard.


    Turkey sure gained some area mojo with the relief convoy for Gaza; then got permission (as they told the story) to negotiate a deal with Iran to store something like half their nuclear material to Russia, I think it was.  Then Washington reneged on the deal; loss of face for Turkey, and some amount of anger with the State department.  I forget, but there were some more messes since then...nope; can't recall them.  Maybe later, or others will remember.

    If I had an extra fiver to bet, I'd think they won't take Turkey up on the offer since they seem to be re-taking lots of cities and towns, and now some key oil towns.  But I'm rooting for Turkey, too.  Apparently they are making plans for another flotilla to Gaza in May.  Good.


    Flav, seems they just published an article especially for you over at the NYT, I hope you have access:

    News Analysis: Doctrine for Libya: Not Carved in Stone
    By Thom Shanker and Helene Cooper, March 29

    WASHINGTON — So, is there an Obama doctrine?

    [....]

    ....“There is no Obama doctrine because the president is not doctrinaire,” said Robert S. Litwak, vice president for programs at the Woodrow Wilson Center...

    [.....]

    Laughing

    (Later interestingly the article quotes Gary Hart basically saying it's high time Obama get himself some doctrine like Truman and stop doing the ad hoc thingie. But it is just the typical NYT roundup of analysts on topic if you don't want to waste one of 20 articles per month, it's not that special. Just thought you shouldn't miss the Litwak quote. )


    Flav, I believe you've gone viral:

    Obama Has No Doctrine

    "We can make a difference" isn't a strategy. But is that really so bad? After all, the U.S. is going broke.

    By Michael HIrsh, The Atlantic, March 29

     


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