The Bishop and the Butterfly: Murder, Politics, and the End of the Jazz Age

    Meet The Family

    Okay, folks, I'm gonna try to put this in a light that I think will best explain why I agree with Obama and his tactics. Bear with me, okay?

    First, for you ladies out there, pretend you're a man. Okay, now.

    Pretend, all of you, that you've just met the woman of your dreams. The woman you know in your heart that you want to marry. You both get along, you've been through hard times and good times together and you know how to still get along. When it's rough for you, she's there, trying to lighten your load. When it's bad for her, you help her out too. You no longer care that she likes light pink and your apartment is dark blue. You want to marry her.

    So you get engaged. And then she tells you that it's time for you to meet the whole family, before the wedding. And she warns you that perhaps the family isn't at all like you. She warns you that perhaps you're going to meet some members of her family who not only burp loudly at the dinner table, but they have no problem arguing about stuff that makes no sense to you. You love her, so you know you have to try to put your best foot forward, right? So you do.

    You go to her family Thanksgiving get-together and you meet her sisters and brothers, and you make small talk while trying to figure out which ones your beloved is closest to. And you stay as polite as you can while trying to fit in. And you start to feel like you fit in, and you start to loosen up a little while chatting away with the family....

    ...and then you all sit down to dinner. And her father takes the head of the table and her grandparents sit on either side of you. And her aunt and uncle sit across from you. And you are expected to talk with these four people nearest you while your beloved sits somewhere down the table, diagonally across from you and so far away that she's not even within earshot, and you can't even stretch your left leg out in hopes your foot will meet hers under the table for a sly game of footsie.

    And that's when you find out her family hates your politics.

    Now. What do you do?

    Do you stand up in the middle of the first or second course and declare that your beloved's family is screwed up and wrong?

    Do you wait until dessert to stand up and declare that your beloved's family is screwed up and wrong?

    Or do you mildly accept the way her family hates your politics, and try as politely as you can to make your own points, adding to the discussion in a way that keeps it moving forward without any acrimony?

    And later, that night, when you and your beloved get to meet up alone in a bedroom somewhere in the house, sanctioned or not by her parents, do you make mild jokes with her about your interesting conversation at the dinner table that night?

    Or do you tell her the wedding is off? And then storm off.

    What do you do?

    Comments

    Could someone please pass the cranberry sauce?


    Ummm, more mashed potatoes please ... which is why we need Universal Health Care.


    Now that's the spirit!  My point exactly.  Laughing


    I was wondering. Do you know exactly which 11 herbs and spices they were using?


    Nice blog Lis... It made me think of this:


    Oh I love this song. Thanks, T!

    Perfect and beautifully written.  Even from the distance of blog land, it is clear that you are a national treasure.


    LisB,

    Allow me to role play--a devil's advocate response--I think I've read the arguments ad nauseum (in the gaziilions, mebbe) for quite a few years now, at least enough to be able to hit the two main points.

    First:

    Politics is not a  Miss Manners dinner party.

    (Meta digression: That was a big one at early TPMCafe when Marshall was trying to get across that he wanted a more civil and yes, more elite place than DKos. Those not in agreement with his policy would say politics wasn't Miss Manners Dinner Party, and he would say this is a coffee house, not a tavern brawl...I had already "been there, done that," elsewhere and had basically decided that the most troublesome of those kind of people actually didn't give shit about politics, but just liked brawling. They were supposedly anti-war, but they sure seemed to enjoy ruthless keyboard warmongering of the most brutal sort and sadistic verbal abuse of other humans. Nonetheless, they were also making a common argument of the politically active. )

    Second:

    That young man of  your story is SPINELESS, HE HAS NO BACKBONE! He will never be master of his own house if he doesn't stand up to those relatives! He should just mow them down right at the dinner table! They'll cower at the sight of him then, give him whatever he wants and.what's more, she'll come running to him then. Women like a winner who STICKS UP FOR HIS BELIEFS.Oh and did I say he was SPINELESS?!  Did I mention he needs a BACKBONE?!

    Laughing


    Third:  I never wanted to get married, (again).  I voted for someone whom I expected to fight for some principles I support more than his opponent.  Which goes back to your first point.


    Having served aboard a Navy cruiser (my first assignment) for just a few weeks, I was given an assignment from a lifer that I felt was detrimental to an operation.  I, politely, told him that , in my opinion, that there was a better- alternate way to do the task.  He stared at me for a few moments and responded..."Trotter -- Opinions are just like ass holes...everybody has one.  Do what you're told!" Over  the years, I've learned that he was, pretty much, correct.  Unless the operation I managed would be negatively impacted, I tried to go with another's opinion.  Will not go into detail as to why I find it beneficial to go with another's opinion, but do feel it's less draining and the job gets done equally well.  I dicuss politcs, only, with those who adhere to my progressive beliefs.  When politics is addressed, in my presence, I choose not to enter into a no-win pissing contest.  I have never seen a non-believer converted resultant from a shouting match.  George Bush converted more Independents and Republicans to Obama than I ever could have by knocking on doors, marching at the Mall or sticking political flyers under windshield wipers.  In Liz's example I would have kept my opinions to myself, eaten the meal and bid her family a fond good evening.  Would I be judgmental?  You bet!


    I'm with ya Chuck, but I'll up you on I have never seen a non-believer converted resultant from a shouting match. I don't understand those who enjoy reading such exchanges in the blogosphere. It's a game, where the real complicated nature of imost ssues are sublimated to two simplistic advocacy positions, like debate club. I've never seen it not be one. Why not watch professional wrestling instead of making national politics into a game. Or volunteer for jury duty so the rest of us don't have to listen to two advocates on different sides lie!

    And whatever your detailed reasons you think it was beneficial to work according to another's opinion, I bet it's made you a much wiser, smarter person. It's connected in a way to "stand in another person's shoes," thing--if you do that enough you understand the world better, can make better smarter choices and decisions for yourself.

    I like the internet for the ability to get the analysis of something by other minds than my own. I have little interest in hearing the details of their actual opinion is about what should be done, and don't understand why others want to know the same from me. I try to be tolerant of other's tastes in what i consider really just infotainment, especially the preaching--god the preachin' it's really hard to skip over as seems it's everywhere in the blogosphere lately and it's really getting on my nerves. (I didn't even like sermon part of the mass back when I was religious kid.) I can get what I need to know on the opinion front, just the basics, much more accurately from polls. Why would anyone prefer reading the opinion on the same political topics over and over and over and over of every Tom Dick and Harry when there's so much to learn and understand in our short lives?  Most can't really believe they are convincing anyone else, sometimes it almost feels sickly voyeuristic to be constantly reading people get their anger out or act out against their father or boss or whatever.


    art...

    If the result of an idea gets what I needed done, why demand that the individual tasked use my methodology?  Besides, when the other individual counters me, he\she has a dog in the fight.  There have been times that I knew the alternate idea might be slightly more expensive and, at times, an utter failure, but, within reason, I knew my challenger would benefit from the experience.  I've trained many good leaders by applying this philosophy.


    You bring up some wonderful ideas about the benefits of compromise in these comments, Chuck.  The main point being that you didn't have to compromise your own beliefs in the process, and usually turned these situations into win-win.  You got something out of it, and the other person did too. 

     


    I make it a point to never mix politics and pumpkin pie. It causes the whipped cream to curdle.


    Lovely story, Lis.  I like that couple.  I'm guessing that since they're so compatible their politics are similar, too.  It seems likely they would have talked about politics somewhere along the way and she wouldn't have been pussyfooting around about her family being "different" if her politics were similar to his.  The sensible thing for her to do would be to warn him about possible dinner conversations.

     If they weren't compatible politically, that would be a different story.  It's not going to last anyway, so he has nothing to lose by going after that bunch.  But I think they are together on this, so my vote would be for him to just bite his tongue and maybe hold his nose as they're talking, just so they know he's not going along with that garbage, but he's too smart to let them drag him into the abyss while there's still dessert to look forward to.

    But since this is a parable about Obama, I say unless he's got a dog in that fight, let it go.


    I think comparing politics to no-stakes dinner conversation kinda misses the point.

    Maybe a closer analogy - you meet the family, and you realize they all want to rob your beloved blind.

    What then...?


    You shoot them. Next question.


    Agreed.  It's a better analogy.  But I had my upcoming Thanksgiving dinner in mind...I'm going to be visiting with the mostly-Republican family.  Luckily I'll have some Liberal nieces there, too.

     


    Leaving aside the obvious fact that not all women are, or aspire to be ‘ladies’, I don't even get your piece as a 'how to meet the in-laws' piece. 

    I would wonder why ‘Beloved’ had low-balled her family’s political views, or the degree to which his might have been contrary to them.  Their table, their views rule; I would have held my tongue, as would most guests.  But I sure would have reminded myself that I would be marrying her family, as well as ‘Beloved.’ 

     And she warns you that perhaps the family isn't at all like you. She warns you that perhaps you're going to meet some members of her family who not only burp loudly at the dinner table, but they have no problem arguing about stuff that makes no sense to you.”

     So “she” finds the stuff they talk about incomprehensible?  If I were Beloved, I’d wonder at the degree of her…cluelessness and lack of curiosity, or cognitive skills?   So what does he find at the table?  Jon Kyl and John McCain and/or Glenn Beck politics?  You never say what politics Beloved holds or espouses at the table, nor how we discover that ‘her’ relatives hate his politics.  He’s already let the cat out of the bag?  Then why would he smack ‘em around and leave the table?  Don’t get it.  You do seem to think that he should have gone upstairs for some covert hooking up with ‘her’, where they could giggle a bit over the craziness of his soon-to-be-in-laws!  (Picuring Obama and Gobbs or Rahm ‘giggling in the Oval?

     Now the point of this blog, I think, was to argue more fully an argument you were making for bipartisanship on Genghis’ blog.  Which seemed to have evolved into an argument for bipartisanship for its own sake, I think.

     But in no way is your family scenario analogous to Obama and Congress, IMO.  Nor is Obama’s famous call for bipartisanship analogous to a Miss Manners Dinner Party, as AA suggests, then takes off on the subject of politics and verbal brawls, and loving conflict more than making political points.

     Unless you, as many, buy into the criticism that he does in fact want the love of the opposition party, which would be a crying shame.  Our government is not a family, LisB, and Obama should not be courting the opposition, which doesn’t rule out initial decency or argument without swear words or insults, for instance.  He should be standing up for principles and policies he espoused during the campaign (and no; I don’t think we all should have read his books and decided that what he campaigned on wasn’t who he really was).

     I tried to run a few scenarios for you, but I deleted them; my heart’s just not into it.  But you see, what I have trouble reconciling is the emergency nature of the problems besetting the nation, and the degree to which Obama keeps punting.  Or negotiating with himself before negotiating with Republicans.  Or making one promise, only to actually do something else. 

     After two years now, I believe he’s getting almost exactly what he wants, and has used the bipartisanship shtick for cover, as many in Congress do, especially the now-gruesome Senate.   Come January 3, he may wish he hadn’t been quite so acquiescent:  there are some bad plans afoot from the Republicans, including some of the heads of various committees that can make life awful for Obama and, even worse, US. 

     His economic team blocked most of the good fin-regs every step of the way: they didn’t lose the battles, they won them.  Sad for us, sad for the future of the economy, and horrid for us in the future.  I’m pissed.  I wanted someone to stand up for people, not banks, jobs, not bank balance sheets, real health care reform and cost-cutting, not just…well…what we got instead.  Nancy Pelosi’s still waiting to hear from him on a middle-class tax cut; where is he?  Making deals for ‘temporary extensions to all’?  Feh!  Can we make enough noise to prevent it?  Or convince him that deficit reduction right now is just plain crazy??  I dunno.  But good Lord, I hate to think what he’ll do when the Republican committees really roll out the evil dreck they’re planning.  Could he finally get pissed enough to do battle on behalf of our lives and our kids’ and grandkids’ lives?  I hope to God he doesn’t ‘mind his freakin’ manners’.  They’re trying to turn us into serfs, Lis.  And so are plenty of the Dems.  We need to start differentiating them.


    Sorry lis, I don't see how this relates to Obama's tactics.

    If you were saying liberals need to discuss issues with conservatives civilly I'd agree. The Daily Howler and Stewert are both saying something like that in different ways and I mostly agree with both of them. We liberals do a very poor job of selling our ideas to the opposition.

    If you're saying Obama should have civil discussion with his republican conter parts I'd agree with that too.

    But sooner or later discussion is over and it comes down to the actual policy enacted. Action will be taken that has serious results for people and the future of our country. Imo the results have not been good for the people or for the future of our country. Imo Obama's tactics have lead to these results that are not good for most people and detrimental to the future of our country.

    I'm having difficulty seeing how being civil to people you disagree with and accepting those who are close to your beloved that you disagree with has anything to do with the tactics that lead to these ineffectual or bad actions.

    I'd certainly stick with my beloved no matter who her family was. But if all our plans for the wedding were changed by her family and her tactic was to capitulate. And then they visited our home and demanded that we arrange it to their satisfaction and remove items we had chosen together and she agreed. Well then, I'd have a heart to heart discussion with my beloved and if there wasn't some understanding reached, I would probably be looking for a new beloved.


    I'd certainly stick with my beloved no matter who her family was. But if all our plans for the wedding were changed by her family and her tactic was to capitulate. And then they visited our home and demanded that we arrange it to their satisfaction and remove items we had chosen together and she agreed. Well then, I'd have a heart to heart discussion with my beloved and if there wasn't some understanding reached, I would probably be looking for a new beloved.

    This is the perfect answer!  But Oceankat--you DID see how it relates to Obama's tactics!  I think this may be exactly what Lis was trying to get at with this scenario--the views from every guest at the table.


    Thanks, Ramona. Yes, that is what I was trying to get at.

    If Obama's "tactics" is to get the views of all the guests at the table, imo, he's failing miserably at that too.

    The "bipartisan" deficit commission was, theoritically, nothing but discussion to get all the views on the table. If you want to get the views of everyone and you ask the republicans to join you in appointing a commission and they say NO its doesn't help to create your own. Then put a right wing republican known to hate social security and a blue dog right wing democrat in charge as co-chairs. And then  tell the left a few times, in essence, to shut up. The view on the table is Bowles-Simpson. All other views are marginalized in the tactics Obama used.

    You don't do that unless you're stupid, naive or you want to cut entitlements and not have a serious discussion on tax policy and defense spending. Unless Bowles-Simpson is exactly what he wanted his tactics were terrible.


    A different setup would cast Dearly Beloved, a moderate centrist in all things, [which means to me that she hadn't bothered, or felt the need, to  pay attention and take life seriously] as part of a large family that she felt a true family bond with even if some of them embarrassed her. They ran the gamut from stone stupid to bright and well educated and they all shared the same fundamentalist religion and the man was agnostic and thought that the families religion was ridiculous and responsible for warped, hurtful thinking. The family all expected that children of the union would be raised in their religion, they felt the necessity of that with religious fervor, especially the stupid ones. If not, Dearly Beloved would be a traitor to her family and become an outcast, and that was the topic at the dinner table.


    Families are nuts!!


    True that, Dick.  True that.

     


    This is why I now bring shoes to all family gatherings.

    And Presidential press conferences.


    Hahahaha!

     


    After reading this several times, along with the comments, I have to say that the analogy isn't working for me, lis.

    If the family is the American people, there would have been some like-minded people at the table, and therefore should have felt free to make his points, knowing that nearly half the people would have his back.

    It sounds to me more like the family is the republican party, which changes the dynamic. In that case, you cannot just shut up, because you need to be able to convert at least some of the moderates, and you can only do that by discussing the issues. No way can you storm off.

    At risk of straying OT, what has happened to Obama, in my opinion, has happened for several reasons, some of them Obama's fault, some beyond his control.

    First, the repub party was in total disarray. The "pundits" were saying that it would take 20 years for the repubs to be relevant again. They had nothing to lose by becoming the party of no. They chose to actively attempt to destroy this President as their one and only plan for America, country be damned, and in spite of the fact that many of the things he wanted to do had repub support at one time (ie, john mccain being in favor of repealing DADT, and now actively working against it.) And it worked. And the reason it worked, again, my opinion, is because he is black. (And I believe the same would have been true if it were a woman, but that's a whole 'nuther discussion.)

    Second, in normal times, I believe the moderate republicans would have worked with him, just as moderate dems have worked with repub presidents. But somehow, the repub leadership was able to convince its members to hang together, no matter how bizarre their tactics became, no matter how outrageous their behavior. As much as I despise what they have done, I am in awe of their ability to present a united front.

    Third, and this IS Obama's fault, he used the tactics he said he would work against to get the health care issues resolved (ie back room deals w/ big pharma) and broke a cardinal rule of negotiating by starting too far to the right. Instead of asking for the moon, the stars and most of another galaxy and settling for the moon and the stars, he asked for the moon and the stars, and got a few stars.

    Fourth, Obama, AND the whole dem party, aided and abetted by the msm, allowed the repubs to win the war of words. The repubs were able to come up with a bumper sticker campaign of lies and distortions that resonated with a large portion of the un/under-informed citizens, the ones I like to call stupid people (sorry, I know that doesn't advance the discussion, but I'm just being honest here among friends.)

    Now we've got a mess of epic proportions, and it is anyone's guess how it is going to shake out.

    I don't know if Obama can pull it out or not. But I do know that I am becoming less and less enamored of the dem party. I have really hated the idea of becoming an independent, but I left the repub party in protest to what the repubs did by giving the world sarah, so it seems fitting to leave the dem party in protest to them being weenies. But, I'll give them awhile. If they can grow a pair, I might stay. If not, adios. If I'm going to be eunuch, I might as well do it as an independent.

    And, yes, I'm depressed this morning. I might change my mind when I'm more myself. Am I going to hit send, or hit select all/delete? Let's see...

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     


    Hi stilli, long time (life's crazy right now).

    I'll just chime in and say that it's not the party, it's your values. If your values align more one way, then that's the party. I'm no fan of "Democrats do or die" or "Republicans or else." Sometimes you choose your team based upon the coach and players, and not on the fact that you've been a diehard Redskins fan your whole life (changing metaphors on you).

    I took a quiz today (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/page?id=11975438) that told me I use the language of a Republican--It says I'm 60% Republican! But I'm not a Republican because, whatever language I'm using, I have values that align towards another party. One that believes in science and rationality, one that believes in compassion for people and the environment, one that knows that regulation of industry, like regulation of speed limits, helps all get to their destinatition.

    I think you're talking about mistakes that the Democrats have made in strategy, in leadership, in sticking to a subject, in messaging. I agree that the Dems have utterly sucked recently. But these people can be fired (I'd hoped Pelosi would move on, but oh well.) or changed. And some of these people can learn from their mistakes. I

    But leadership aside, you chose the party that votes in keeping with the most of your values. And if you belong to that party that's most aligned towards your thinking, you can use your voice more effectively. There's nothing wrong with being independent either, but I like to think that I can have a voice in the Democratic Party that can help it change. If there were a viable third party, instead of no party, then there would be more options. But there isn't. Besides, if the leadership continue to be wimpy, then my letters--instead of reading "the honorable blah blah blah"--will begin with "Why you son of a bitch."  But that's me.  ;)