This picture irritates me

    Whoever in the State Department that is advising Hillary and Nancy on how to cover their heads on visits to Muslim countries should be fired. It is not like we do not have hats in our own style that would be not only more flattering but more appropriate. Both Queen Elizabeth and Queen Margrethe have visited Saudi Arabia wearing their usual hat styles even though their roles as heads of state are ceremonial. Nancy and Hillary have more real official power. Their dress, including head coverings, should reflect their own culture -- the one in which they were able to rise to power not one that restrict womens' rights as well as dress. /Vent

    Comments

    I wonder how the headwear actually goes over in the Middle East--is it appreciated as a sign of respectful modesty, regarded as a gesture of celebration of local cultural practices, or (I fear) considered a little bit patronizing?


    "Their dress, including head coverings, should reflect their own culture"

    They are world citizens, representing a diverse USA not narrow cultural icons.

    Perhaps part of you rejects "when in Rome..."


    At the price of the part that says, "Be yourself..."?


    GOOD GRIEF! Of all the absurd rants I have heard about this trip this one may just take the prize.

    The Queen is always in a hat when was the last time you saw Hillary in one? She chose what she thought was appropriate.


    Oh and just to totally blow your comment about the Queen.

    http://www.monstersandcritics.com/people/royalwatch/features/article_1405432.php

    Please notice scarf while visiting Mosque.


    Really? How does that "blow" her comment, "Both Queen Elizabeth and Queen Margrethe have visited Saudi Arabia wearing their usual hat styles"?


    They are not visiting the countries as individuals, they are official representatives of the United States. There's a difference.


    Yes they visited wearing their usual hat styles, but when visiting a holy site such as the Green Mosque in the picture I linked they donned scarves. And as Hilary has done when visiting the Sultan Hassan Mosque in Cairo in the picture above.


    It's gay. It's like wearing the lei you get coming off the plane or cruise ship around all week.

    American Women are not required to cover their heads, because we come from a tradition that says they have to live in shame and hide from the divine.

    Stupid bullshit. It should have been ignored, and if suggested it should have been refused.

    Nothing you can tell me will ever change the meaning of the cloak of invisibility. Women are to be scorned, because seeing them makes muslim men lose their minds and become as evil as women.


    She chose what she thought was appropriate.

    Then she was wrong.

    I think it would have been great if Hillary refused to wear any head covering at all since that is her personal style but it would probably have been blown all out of proportion and distracted from the purpose of the visit. Since the issue is token head covering, note her bangs are showing, she could have done the same with something more suitable to her own style.

    At any rate, these are public displays (I doubt she wore anything in private meetings) and the visuals are all wrong. What is the point of ingratiating herself with a foreign audience if she diminishes herself domestically?

    BTW, if you cannot tell the difference between the Queen's scarf in the photo you linked to and the one Hillary is wearing, you should read more fashion magazines.


    You do know in the picture she was visiting mosque?


    Is it Broadway-gay or leather motorcycle-gay? Singer/songwriter gay or cowboy gay? Sitcom gay or big screen gay? Lawyer gay or photographer gay?

    Whichever sort of gay it is, I think the scarf actually suits Hillary quite well.


    Once again. There are scarves and there are scarves. Look at the Queen's. Look at Hillary's.

    If you cannot see the difference, you will never understand my point.


    If you cannot wear a scarf because yourself (your self) is too wrapped up in self-appearance, you shouldn't be working in civil service, much less the Cabinet!


    What is that difference, in your view, here?

    I'm not clear if you are trying to support my point or to argue against it -- "representing a diverse USA not narrow cultural icons"



    And does this irritate you as much
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9nTItnS3VNk/R4fKTMIUORI/AAAAAAAANhY/O0gx3bM2lLQ/s400/israel+bush+perez+olmert+kippa.jpg
    or is it just an anti-Islamic thing you've got going?


    And by golly, I hope everyone kept on their shoes and stomped around that mosque well and good. Show the bastards our values!


    Now that you mention it, it kind of does. We don't drag our state visitors to mosques and synagogues or ask them to adopt our style of dress if they do visit.


    Okay then. I suppose one could make a policy out of refusing all such invitations to religious sites, but I'd really see it as pointless rudeness.


    To the contrary, I think it would show more respect for their religions if we did not use sacred sites for political photo ops.


    Hopefully they see it for the meaningless political opportunism it is.


    Well Fallaci was brilliant when she pulled off her head scarf in front of Ayatollah Khomeini. Not that the function of Secretary of State is the same as a journalist. But does Hillary wear African garb when visiting central Africa? Sombrero and pancho to Mexico? Do we cater to Buddhism and Hinduism the way we cater to Islam and Judaism? What about Nativist religions - I want to see my leaders give some Shamanistic rituals a shot. Maybe play goat ball on horseback next trip to Central Asia.

    Except that Yeltsin and Deng Xiaopeng wore cowboy hats coming to the US, while Jiang Zemin wore a baseball cap touring the Holy Land, though it didn't seem anyone minded (he was selling the Israelis a radar system, so he could have come in pajamas and spurs for all they cared). Just another photo-op I guess.


    Meant to note that Khomeini's handlers thought he was furious. Turned out that he was humored. Of course his idea of humor was also crushing people's vocal cords so they couldn't be heard screaming as they were pushed off a building. Ah well, our little experiment in Islamic revolution didn't pay off so well.


    This is kind of a silly post, but the fashion angle is irresitable so I'll bite.

    No one looks good in babushka-style scarves, period. A fashionable hijab would have been preferable (think Christiane Amanpour, bangs showing and attractively draped fabric framing her face) . But then again, I don't have a problem with adopting the sartorial standards of unfamiliar cultures and would don the full regalia if it would make it easier to move around.

    But what really strikes me about the photo is that Hillary Clinton is so obviously having the time of her life. I have not been a fan of hers and as a FP obsessive, suspicious about Hillary's appointment and even more, the coterie of advisors et all who have accompanied her into the DoS apparatus and "special envoy" positions.

    For me, it comes down to a choice for Hillary about whether or not she contemplates running for further political office in the future. If she decides against that option, she will be more-or-less free to act as an independent player in dealing with the ME. So far on the I/P issues she is kicking ass and no doubt, the Clintonian memories of the perfidious bibi & co are undiminished.

    Iran and Syria are another matter and bear watching. In the case of the later, Hillary (and John Kerry) had to do some swift damage control as a result of Obama's hostile language upon the renewal of sanctions against Syria. Another check in the Hillary "plus" column.

    My impressions of seeing examples of Hillary-on-the-job have been that she is relishing her role. Being Secretary of State is a great fit on many levels having to do with her personal attributes to her love of playing the power games at the highest levels. She may not be the first woman to hold the post, but she can set the standard for being an effective SoS, female or male.

    Back to the original point about headcoverings, don't forget that her longtime most trusted staff member is a Muslim woman. No doubt Hillary took her advice.



    Do you understand your point? I don't think you even have one, but rather you just don't like Arabs.


    Goat ball! Goat ball! Goat ball!


    Thanks for this Emma. She looks awful. Lally's got it right 'Babushka'.

    Hillary's never been known for her sense of style but it would be nice if she hired someone to shop for her. There are fashionable scarves out there.

    Oh well, at least she seems to be having fun.


    Actually, what Emma dislikes is the way many Arab countries treat their female citizens and dislikes anything done by a representative of the United States which lends credence to that treatment.

    To me, it does make a difference that this is a mosque -- churches also often request respectful dressing.


    it would be nice if she hired someone to shop for her.

    Mayhill Fowler might be available.


    You need a hobby.


    This is so "who give a fat rat's rear end?" I can hardly believe I'm commenting...Do we seriously have so little to bitch about that we are stooping to bitching about this? Oh, and BTW, I thought Hill looked pretty cute.


    I have never seen Dick actually place his head where it so obviously is. I guess he is not a diplomat.


    Now I could be wrong, but didn't Hillary attend Obama's speech prior to the mosque visit and, unless I'm mistaken, didn't I see a picture of her without a head scarf? If anyone can find a link, it would be great to post it (sorry, I'm not skilled enough to do so). If my recollection holds true, how does this change your premise Emma?

    I don't post here often, and thus, I'm not familiar with your offerings here, but I must ask: Did you listen to or read Obama's speech today? Did you pick up on his challenge to non-muslims to understand that the wearing of a head scarf or a hijab is not always by force, and thus a sign of oppression--it is sometimes by choice? A woman covering her head in a mosque is customary, but no one forced Hillary to go there or to do it. It was her choice, as it is for many others across the world. In the U.S., Arab-American and American non-arab muslims, including Black American Muslims, often where headscarves, as do Black Israelites and Orthodox Jewish women for particular occasions. Have you ever thought to ask them why they choose to do so? Would you be receptive to their answer?

    I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I've recently re-connected with some old friends who have converted to Islam and I've asked the same question, and accepted their repsonses, each offered willingly and with pride, and the sincerity in which they offered them. And I've done so without applying my righteous prism.


    Why is a more traditional western-style hat or scarf not an appropriate head cover in a mosque? Maybe you can ask your friends.


    i don't know about that. Barack might be bitter.


    I can't imagine Hillary's all that stoked with 'ole Mayhill after that hack-job she did on Bill.


    You sound like fucking Newt Gengrich. It's called diplomacy. Remember that picture of Obama in that rediculous turbin outfit? A big part of the game is going overseas and putting on funny hats, shoes, etc. and eating crap you'd never order in a million years if left to your own devices.

    That's why Hillary is SOS and you .... aren't.


    I think Hillary looks just fine for a Secretary of State. If she has an extra 30 seconds, I would hope she spends it on some of our urgent world problems rather than finding a better scarf to allay fashion-detractors. And should she dress "better", whatever it means, she will have thousands of critics calculating how much her new digs cost and criticizing 3 ways to Sunday.


    I don't recall any male leaders ever wearing a Ghutra, despite all the trips to Saudi Arabia and surroundings, so perhaps you could give Emma half a break.


    The title of this blog says it all: This Picture Irritates Me

    It is personal (and trivial too). I have a new shoe that is irritating me, but I promise not to blog about it.


    It is personal (and trivial too).

    Not really. Well, yes and no. It is, however, incomplete; the result of premature publication.

    It is my first inserted picture accompanied by notes to myself. I guess I was too anxious to preview or something.

    Anyway, by the time I noticed it was published, it had attracted a recommend and a couple of comments, so I let it stand.

    Look at the men in that picture. All of them are wearing western-style clothes. Now look at the women, swaddled from head to toe and crowned with an ugly scarf. It makes me gag.


    I don't think that is how they would see it. And that matters if you're seriously concerned about conveying respect. Was that what irritated you? You found it disrespectful to their religion? Now I'm confused about your feelings.


    I don't get this post, either. This isn't the first time an American woman has donned a headscarf in the Middle East. This was about Nancy Pelosi wearing a headscarf--more than two years ago:

    Having the top-ranking woman in the U.S. government bow to Muslim custom was perhaps a shock to some Americans. There may even have been some puzzlement in Syria, where hijabs are not ubiquitous on the streets, and the country's president is a secular Baathist. But the practice is broadly accepted, and everybody from Laura Bush and Hillary Clinton to Condi Rice and Madeleine Albright have donned a headscarf at one time or another—despite Western concerns that it is not a symbol consistent with women's rights.

    The article is here: http://www.newsweek.com/id/35679

    Now, if this is simply about how badly Hillary dresses, then I'm outta here.


    Jeez... let Hillary wear what she wants. She looks nice!


    Emma:

    Western attire can be no less sexist. High heels, brassiere, the suit and tie, the proper male hair cut, lack of tattoos, body image...

    The west has a heaping ton of restrictive, alluring and/or gender-specific attire.

    Further, Hillary has worn the hijab before.

    I really don't understand why heads of state should dress in their cultural attire while travelling. I believe they should dress in a manner that is not diplomatically embarrassing, but Secretary Clinton's choice here is hardly embarrassing. She is showing respect towards a culture that deserves respect and has gotten almost none of it from the west over a century.

    "Their dress, including head coverings, should reflect their own culture --"

    This sticks in my craw. Most of our western attire is derivative of fashion from other cultures around the world.


    OK, I'll throw in two cents.
    There are many places in the world where women go bare breasted (or just bare). If a woman from such a culture were to visit USA would you expect her to ignore local custom and leave her breasts exposed? At best that would be concidered rude and stupid. Most likely she would be arrested.
    Obey the pug: Good one about stomping around the mosque in shoes. Just because we're Americans doesn't mean we need to act as stupid as everybody expects us to.


    We should try and refrain from giving Q these kinds of ideas out of consideration for his family.


    I find myself somewhat irritated to see female foreign correspondents wearing head scarves, knowing that they, but not their male colleagues are so restricted.

    However, the head scarf has deep cultural resonance and new meanings--witness all the young Muslim women who now wear them in the US.

    As a diplomat, HRC is not jockeying for prestige among Western male journalists--she's showing her desire to connect with people in another cultural tradition. A western-style hat would be a block to communicating that desire and (as others above note) would convey its own messages about gendered western trad.


    I see this as a little bit of amusement. It is raining here and I am stuck inside so I am happy to read something that promotes quinn to yell goat ball.


    Your avatar is awesome. Can I get a handful of gold?


    Do you think if a woman with the official stature of Secretary of State or Speaker of the House (second in line for presidential succession) wore a western-style hat or scarf as a head covering that maybe those female journalists might be able to do the same ... eventually.

    Insistence on a particular style of dress is an assertion of power over another. There are few that are more personal. Since Islam literally means submission, I can understand why so many women in those cultures accept dress codes. OTOH, America is all about liberty and our representatives should reflect that. While diplomacy may require some compromise on small things, it should not require submission.


    As an interesting photographic composition, I really like it. I like the framing, the background, the lighting, and the facial expressions on the front three. That tall dude in the rear is a minor distraction, though.


    Headscarves are a sign of modernization and progress in the Muslim world. I have a youger sister who is Muslim and chooses to wear (or not wear) a headscarf whenever she wants to school or to the mall or to parties. Occassionally she'd pin her Barack Obama pin to it :) But if she goes to mosque, she would certainly wear it out of respect for being in a religious building.

    As Obama said in his speech:

    Freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one’s religion… That’s why the United States government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab, and to punish those who would deny it

    It's not like Hillary is rocking a full out burkah. Hillary (or Pelosi or Laura Bush or Condi Rice) wearing the headcovering while in a mosque shows respect for the religion. I thought that was part of the message Obama was trying to get across yesterday.


    Then where is Obama's fez?


    We have dress codes in the west. From school to work, from cradle to grave. I guarantee if we had a conversation about dress, I could find fashion (or lack thereof) that you would consider unacceptable for reasons that are strictly cultural. We are not as "free" as you are positing.

    Diplomacy is about sensitivity, especially right now when nuclear armed Pakistan is dealing with the Suat valley atrocities.


    Did you check to see if Obama took his shoes off?

    Different standards for mosque etiquette.


    Sorry, I guess he hasn't been to Mecca yet. What's the other cap called? The little beanie like a Jewish yarmulke?


    She probably should have just gone dressed as Wonder Woman
    complete with American flag motif...how'd you think that would go over?



    If she has an extra 30 seconds, I would hope she spends it on some of our urgent world problems rather than finding a better scarf to allay fashion-detractors.

    Second.


    Both he and Hillary and everyone who entered the mosque took their shoes off.

    More photos:

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8449826


    Different standards for mosque etiquette.

    Exactly.


    Obama in a yarmulke. I suppose this is offensive too.

    http://www.subvertednation.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/obama_yarmulke1.jpg


    "Swaddled from head to toe"?

    She's wearing a scarf over a pantsuit.

    So wearing a pantsuit is equivalent to being swaddled from head to toe?


    WHAT TO WEAR When visiting a mosque, wear modest, conservative clothing which exposes a minimum of flesh. No shorts or sleeveless shirts on either men or women. At the most popular mosques in Istanbul (such as the Blue Mosque), attendants may provide robes to wear during your visit if your normal sightseeing clothing is too informal. (No charge for use of the robe.)

    Footwear is not important as you'll be removing it before entering the mosque in any case.

    Women should wear a dress or blouse and skirt (at least to the knees), preferably with elbow-length or longer sleeves, and a headscarf.

    A handy garment for women is a light jacket-shirt or jacket with a built-in hood ("hoodie"). Just raise the hood when you enter the mosque, and you don't need a headscarf!

    Men should wear long trousers and a sleeved shirt.


    No. Not exactly. There are different standards for men and women everywhere on this planet.


    In other words, examine your culture and their biases before lambasting another.


    I suppose blogging doesnt count.


    Just saying. I mean Obama obviously has a stylist his suits are always crisp and color coordinated. Have you seen Amadijad's outfits. Dude's an ignorant hater but he can dress. No reason she shouldn't have the same.

    For the record I am a huge Hillary at State Fan. I think she was an inspired appointee and is doing a phenomenal job.


    So a hoodie can substitute for a scarf. Did anyone tell Hillary that?


    Hillary is part of my culture.


    A pantsuit thick enough to survive living on the steppes of central Asia. Temperature in Cairo are high 90's low 100's.


    I'm impressed with your ability to discern the thickness and texture of the fabric from just a photograph.


    I'd assume yes and she made a CHOICE to wear what she thought was approporiate. True, she didn't run it by Emma Zahn-Blackwell first. And I'm guessing your criticism of her dress choices would hurt her feelings, but she'll try to go on.


    So have you ever wondered why Secretary Clinton hasn't worn a suit and tie, or why President Obama hasn't worn a pantsuit?


    IIRC, Wonder Woman is from Amazonia. Royalty too. And those are her everyday work clothes. She wore different ones at court. :-)


    It is about women and power. Women at the pinnacle of power diminishing that power or letting it be diminished by losing control of their image.

    Nancy Pelosi is a very much a power dresser. She understands image and will likely not make let the scarf thing become an issue again.

    Hillary is much more down to earth and the power dressing thing does not really work as well for her. Nevertheless, as SOS, she should take care with her image.


    While it can be argued that there are many "evil" sides to the Hashemite rule of Jordan, I find I've got to admire Queen Rania (and hubby for supporting her) for running around allover the place with long "sexy" hair uncovered, and not only that but posting tons of pics doing so on her official website:

    http://www.queenrania.jo/default.aspx

    (Be sure to check out the Women Empower page there, Emma:
    http://www.queenrania.jo/content/sectionPage.aspx?secID=womn)

    I'm sure there's some Wahhabi sermons someplace calling her the painted hussy whore of Babylon. More power to her, keep on keeping on.

    As for my opinion on your topic, I think that it's an ok show of respect to put on a veil of some kind when visiting a holy site or meeting with a religious authority, but I am also happy when people push the boundaries by not doing it. It's a symbol of tolerating (and I do mean tolerance in the true definition of the word) "the other" to not expect them to affect your dress codes and not to read any meaning into it when they don't. It's the kind of tolerance we are going to need in a globalizing world, and symbolics of that would be a welcome sign in that process.

    For all the leaders at a conference to don some part of the host country's national dress for a photo-op as a sign of respect is also silly business that I would welcome stopping. It's not a big deal, but the stopping of it would signal progress in the diplomatic world in my mind. It is a so much better message to have a natural mixture and to have everyone accepting the others dressed as they usually do. It would be a good sign if some of these expectations stopped--

    either you're welcoming a guest who is an "other" or you're not.


    On more thought, I would like to throw another vein into the discussion.

    It has always struck me that Hillary Clinton has always waged a mighty struggle with the iconography of dress. She didn't like having to do it back in first lady days, even as first lady of Arkansas. That clothing is a language just bugs her, as if she would welcome a uniform for work, i.e., the navy blue suit, white shirt, and red tie of the old IBM man.

    Seems to me reading about her over the years, she vacillates between obediently taking advice from advisors on what to wear and rebelling against them, feeling that they are not getting the message right. But because she has never cared much about such things, and indeed sometimes hated the fact that clothing was important, her own judgment on the messages that this or that clothing gives is very bad, too. So we have the 100's of hairdoes, etc. And I think we will see her as Secretary of State falling into what some see as an inappropriate message as to dress because of this. Sometimes she will be in the mood of "I don't give a fuck what I look like and no one else should either."

    (There was a comic commenter here I enjoyed on TPM during the primaries, RenStimpy--got banned, I think, for being too boisterous--who mostly picked on the Obama worshippers but sometimes threw in a crack at Hillary as well. I just loved his wry cracks about Hillary's huge primary pantsuit collection, something about that resonated, that the pantsuit thing was something that advisors and Hillary had settled upon as appropriate and also "her.")


    I adore Queen Rania and the work she is doing for women and children's rights in the Muslim world. She gets hammered for some for not wearing the headcovering, but she only does so when she wants to. I believe when visiting mosques, she wears headscarves, just not in everyday life. But when she visited the Pope at the Vatican, Queen Rania wore a mantilla out of respect for Catholic traditions, though it was not required. When he came to Jordan, she remained uncovered. It's about showing respect to Catholic traditions, just as Hillary was showing respect to Muslim traditions.


    "when in Rome..."
    You'd probably reject my:
    "sack the Vatican".
    (not without reason, but still ...)


    Heh. Proximity does not make for bedfellows.


    Thanks for the thoughtful post. I especially like the part about the language of clothes.

    Between this accidental post and yard work, I am pretty much burned out and over my irritation now.

    Good to hear from you.

    Good night.


    OK, I can't resist: I sincerely hope Hillary doesn't go to one of those bare-breasted places; or at least not feel required to do the same.



    Latest Comments