SleepinJeezus's picture

    "Which Side Are You On, Boys?"

    Looks like the White House won the messaging wars.

    Here's the lede to the tax cuts for the rich story as presented by MSNBC:

    Senate passes package extending Bush tax cuts

      The Senate has passed a sweeping tax package that would save millions of Americans thousands of dollars in higher taxes for the next two years while also reducing their Social Security taxes and extending jobless benefits.

    And from the AP:

    Halfway home: Senate sends tax-rate bill to House

    AP Photo

    WASHINGTON (AP) - In a reach across party lines, the Senate overwhelmingly passed sweeping legislation Wednesday to prevent a Jan. 1 income tax increase for millions and to renew jobless benefits for the long-term unemployed. A House vote is expected by Thursday. Within moments of the 81-19 Senate vote, President Barack Obama urged the House to follow suit without making any changes - a slap at rebellious liberals working to stiffen the terms of an estate tax provision they characterize as a giveaway to millionaires and billionaires.

    Congratulations to the Obama White House. Pretty remarkable to see what can be accomplished when they finally plant their flag and make a stand, eh?

    Can't hardly wait to see what happens next year when the President's Party has control of Congress. He's on a roll!

    (NOTE: At this point, the "President's Party" can be pretty accurately described as "The Republicans and whatever Democrats support them, either by ideology or coersion from the White House."

    THAT, my folks, is what "bi-partisanship" looks like. Which side are YOU on?)

    Comments

    Makes me sick.  I can't even talk about it yet.  Mainly because I don't know what else to say.  I'm stuck.


    I agree, Ramona. I purposely frame the issue in a "Class War" theme. Only when people begin to understand the degree to which we are under assault will anything change. And we can't expect the media to tell the story.

    Who will stand for us? Which side are YOU on?


    First, I'm on the side with these folks:

    Bingaman (D-NM)
    Coburn (R-OK)
    DeMint (R-SC)
    Dorgan (D-ND)
    Ensign (R-NV)
    Feingold (D-WI)
    Gillibrand (D-NY)

    Hagan (D-NC)
    Harkin (D-IA)
    Lautenberg (D-NJ)
    Leahy (D-VT)
    Levin (D-MI)
    Merkley (D-OR)
    Sanders (I-VT)

     

    Sessions (R-AL)
    Udall (D-CO)
    Udall (D-NM)
    Voinovich (R-OH)
    Wyden (D-OR)

    (Couldn't get away from the columns.)  Second, the AP story seems to spin it just the way the Senate and the President and Big Dog Clinton want it spun, leaving out the parts about the SS tax holiday robbing the Trust Fund, the fact that it doesn't do a damn thing for the 4.5 million 99-ers, added a bunch of bogus crap like Ethanol Subsidies, but DOES manage to speak of Obama's warning to 'Disgruntled Dems': Pass it like it is or else Mitch McConnell will kill it'.  (paraphrased)

    I really wish more House Dems would find themselves Less Gruntled, and kill it, then go for an unemployment bill for everyone needing it, including the 99-ers.


    I dunno, I am mad as hell. I still can hope the other parts of this stimulus package, despised by teabaggers will do.

    We are in a rut, we let the repubs run the senate with 40-41 senators in their caucus.

    We shall never see these kind of numbers again and the fascist corporate pricks won once again anyway.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP2lmG5E-Vc&feature=fvst

    I paste this all the time, I know.

    I forgot to thank you for this fine post Sleepin.

    I am lost and I am aching and I cannot find my way home.


    Can't find your way home? Me, neither. But we're not alone. As poignantly explicated by Rowan on her Posterous page:

    http://rowanwolf.posterous.com/a-zoo-of-our-our-making


    Thank you very much for this. I miss Rowan so much. So I bookmarked it and left a comment.


    It's not possible to post that particular Carlin video too often, DD -- it should be required viewing in every American household and classroom... As everyone should read Rowan's post .... I know, I know, but we can dream, right?


    The White House certainly did win the messaging wars.  It's just that it was the Bush White House.  I mean, seriously... how long are we going to talk about the "Bush Tax Cuts?"  It's like the tax cuts are the airport that'll never be named after him.


    Destor, I know you would agree that the "Obama Tax Cuts" were PRECISELY what should have been passed. FUCK the Bush Tax Cuts. They were scheduled to sunset. So be it! Obama and Congress could easily have presented a Bill in the House to replace them with tax cuts targeted in defensible ways, meaning NOT to include an extra giveaway to the rich and the heirs to the rich. There was absolutely NO reason to use the Bush Program as a template for their tax policy.

    What is astounding here is that the way this played out went WAY beyond incompetence. It actually looks more like a case of Obama getting what he (and his "constituents") wanted while leaving him cover to complain "they made me do it!"


    Don't forget the part about him getting to blame those liberals and progressives who criticized the deal for being impractical purists who are against victories for the American people, etc... 


    LOL!


    In essence this is what the deal amounted to (from E.J. Dionne, Jr.'s fence-straddling but somewhat critical December 9 syndicated column):

    For roughly $100 billion to the rich, Obama got $197 billion in benefits he sought for the non-rich, $146 billion in business tax cuts to push job creation, plus an extension of the $280 billion middle-class tax cut. Many Democrats insist the Republicans would have eventually given in on relief for the middle class; the administration is not so sure.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/08/AR2010120805113.html

    If the yardstick against which this is measured is its efficiency in doing what it legitimately is supposed to do, which is stimulate the economy and generate jobs and not add unnecessarily to the debt, then Krugman's criticisms, reinforced by others, are powerful.

    If the yardstick is whether he would be able to get any stimulus (apart from deliberately finding another war to get us into, perhaps, which is David Broder's repugnant suggestion) on more favorable terms with the new Congress many of us felt he did a lot to help elect, the answer probably is no. 


    $100 billion in giveaways to the rich is totally indefensible. It absolutely BEGGED someone to stand up and offer the message that anyone who could even suggest such a thing is totally out of touch with reality - and acting like pigs at the trough, to boot!

    NOTE: We are presented with a steady stream of people on Olberman who quite literally look into the camera and beg for their life. All because AZ refuses to fund $5 million into a transplant program. And yet, Mitch McConnell can stand and threaten to lock down government unless the rich get their tax cut? And some of these rich individuals will personally receive WAY MORE in tax cuts than the $5 million needed to spare these people's lives?

    NOTE: Corporate profits are at record highs. Hedge Fund Managers and CEO's are about to receive incredibly large bonuses - some say the highest in history. Meanwhile, Main Street suffers with almost 10% unemployment. And yet, Boehner and Kyl and Pence, et. al., tell us they are willing to go to the mat - even deprive unemployment compensation from the one out of ten who can't find a job - to make certain that these bonuses aren't taxed at a fair and equitable rate?

    The possibilities for messaging against the GOP position were nearly endless, if only because their position was so goddammed indefensible in light of today's realities suffered by so many in he middle class. Yet, Obama chose to legitimize the GOP's message, and completely undercut any opportunity to oppose them.

    Obama fought for and won his message war. But then ask yourself why it's McConnell strutting about like a bantam rooster whilst our President looks so inept and weak? It's mind-bogglingly stoopid politics. It's even worse policy. Somebody should get him out of the ring before he gets hurt.


    And then there's the Sly Fox SS payroll holiday, which just starts okaying using money to (maybe) offset the decreases to the Trust Fund, one of the best insurance policies we have in this country.

    Me, I'm thinking of becoming a Republican; it would be so much simpler, especially now.  ;o)


    If one assumes that Obama will be a one-term president and that -- incredible as it is to contemplate -- the Republicans will be back in office in 2012, may we assume that the two-year tax cuts for the wealthy are destined to become permanent right after the presidential election? 

    Oh, wait; Obama is a Republican; so assumptions about his winning or losing 2012 really don't matter at this point. It will all be the same, eh?


    On the $100 billion giveaways to the rich, if "rich" is defined as families with $250,000 and up and individuals with $200K and up, I would like to know what the data indicates on proportions of additional discretionary income people at the low end of that definition of "rich" actually are likely to spend.  I'll go with the data on that point.  If it shows families in, say, the $250,000-$300,000 ranges, given costs of living where they tend to live, are likely to spend, say, 80% or 85% of that, then it seems to me there is a good case to be made for actual stimulative effect extending the definition of "rich" somewhat upward to include those folks. 

    This would also be good divide and conquer politics as I see it, as many folks with those income levels do not consider themselves "rich" by any stretch of the imagination given living costs where they live.  Living as we do in suburban DC I happen to know people in that situation and think that they have a point based on what I both know and observe about the way they live their lives.  Past a certain income or wealth level, regardless of whether a person perceives themselves as "rich" or not I'd be in favor of moving as much of the tax burden onto those folks as possible, and in addition to that, making the system more progressive than it is at income levels below that.

    When the topic is taxes, almost everyone is "middle class" these days.  I define true 'middle class' income levels--different from wealth levels where minorities continue to suffer from the effects of historic and current discrimination--as the 20% to 80% range in the income scale.  But to me it doesn't follow that anyone in the upper 20% is therefore "rich" and I think it is bad politics to lump everyone in the upper 20% together in the ongoing class warfare struggles. 

    Where to draw the line at what being "rich" means today for tax increase purposes?  Again, I'd like to see the data.  If it shows major differences in the extent to which people, say, over $500,000/year spend when they have additional discretionary money, versus those in the 250-499 brackets, then maybe that's a better place to draw that line.  The finer the breakdown in the data the better can be the quality of the decisions made on this.

    I think the point really needs to be threefold.  

    1. The policy point is what is the stimulative bang for the buck, and drawing a line at what "rich" means that gets a large rather than trivial, and therefore wasteful for policy purposes, stimulative effect. 

    2. The political point is not to unnecessarily alienate actual and potential liberal progressive supporters by "demonizing" them as "rich" if they are towards the lower end of the $250K family, $200K individual definition that, according to my understanding (please correct if I am mistaken) is the line that is incorporated into this current deal, and live in high cost-of-living areas such as NYC, Boston, Bay Area, DC.

    3. There was no attempt I am aware of these past couple of weeks to introduce legislation that would reflect the perspective above and just let the Bush tax cuts expire.  Certainly no WH support for going that route.  It was quite content to give the back of its hand to those who voted for and worked for their election who might have supported such a move.


    Dreamer, couple of points. Mark Penn tossed around a figure of 26% of all voters earning over $100K and that Dems got 16% less of that group in '10 than in '08. It's my impression that many of these are upper level modern professionals in suburban areas who don't considere themselves "rich" so it sounds like a good idea not to demonize them. Many of these are probably around the D.C. and Philly suburbs,etc., extremely important territory for O.

    Don't have any data on the propensity to spend among the 26%, but it's a great question. As far as the overall stimulus, Bob Greenstein said that the package would take 1% off the unemployment rate. 

    I think we agree that this package is back door stimulus and that getting stimulus of any kind after January wasn't going to happen.

    I am worried that Republicans are so happy about this. I think they think Obama is a push over in the "messaging" department.


    Isn't 250K the taxable income rather than the gross income?


    I think the $250K is taxable income. Now that you mention it, don't know about the $100K figure.


    Can I hear a hallelujah?


    You forgot that if they commute to NYC from the burbs they have to pay NYC city taxes anyway--poor babies.

    But I've been looking for new hot products--Goldman Sachs mattresses and money sacks, great idea, and sacks make good dresses.


    The subject got me thinking, what does the great socialist land of Canada do?

    Surprise surprise:  29% over $127,021--that's the top rate, goes no higher.

    Wikipedia has a decent summary about their income taxes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_taxes_in_Canada

    And then more on their whole smorgasbord of taxes here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Canada

    I found several intriguing differences in the latter, like that they handle capital gains by having half of it reported as ordinary income, and the other half not taxed at all. They do have province income taxes, but like with state income taxes here, wikipedia says they are all lower percentages than the federal tax.


    The proper narrative that let's all the air out of your bluster balloon says that the person earning $250k or above already receives more of a tax cut in dollars than EVERYONE earning less under the (should-have-been) Obama Tax Cuts.

    Insisting on still more money - when people are begging for their lives on national TV because we don't have the tax funds to save them - seems just a wee bit piggish, don't you think?

    Pretty simple message. Bears repeating, even. But not from THIS White House, apparently.

    It's actually quite embarrassing and deflating to see the way in which Obama's choice of narrative has so pervasively insinuated itself into the "mainstream Democrats." This ain't my Democratic Party. Used to be, they were a SECOND political party, and the Repubs actually faced opposition to their supply-side nonsense. Starting to feel like ancient history. I guess we have truly entered into the "post-partisan" era, and it looks like the other side won. Enjoy the fruits of your labors. Me? I'll take a pass, thank you.


    Right on Sleepin!  Right on!


    From the AP writeup of last night's House passage of the tax bill passed with higher percentages of Republican than Democratic caucus votes, titled "Bill Preventing Big Tax Hikes Heads to Obama", by Stephen Ohlemacher:

    "In a rare reach across party lines, Obama negotiated the $858 billion package with Senate Republicans."

    A rare reach across party lines?  Obama has been spending a goodly portion of his presidency doing backflips, front double reverses, upside down triple axles, etc. "reaching across party lines".  I guess "rare" would be one word that could be used to characterize those attempts. Not an accurate word.  But a word.


    Maybe the AP is on to something. After all, it occurs to me that "rare" can be used to describe the opposite of "well done."

    President Obama’s negotiating strategy is the equivalent of arriving at a strip poker game already naked.

    This is a temporary band aide. Everytime the middle class can't afford to keep their homes the answer isn't to lower taxes. The answer is to mandate or create jobs that privde a livable wage. Taxes are a part of life. Until we address the real issues in this country, we will continually be lowering taxes to stay afloat and that leaves us in a continued deficit. It also does not address why we have no money to begin with. Sure some of us live outside our means, but a lot simple work at a job that pays them 6.75 an hour, has no or outrageous costing healthcare, and no pension or retirement plan. These are the thigns killing the middle class. I work more hours every year and I am getting poorer. How is that possible?

    I am disappointed and disgusted with every democrat that voted for this crap piece of legislation.

     


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