MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE
by Michael Wolraich
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MURDER, POLITICS, AND THE END OF THE JAZZ AGE by Michael Wolraich Order today at Barnes & Noble / Amazon / Books-A-Million / Bookshop |
the Vermont senator insisted that the delegate count is fluid. And he expressed confidence that he could persuade some “super delegates”— the party leaders who are not locked into voting for a particular candidate — to peel away from Clinton in the “six long weeks” before Democrats gather in Philadelphia.
“Now, I have heard reports that Secretary Clinton has said it’s all going to be over on Tuesday night. I have heard reports that the media, after the New Jersey results come in, are going to declare that it is all over. That simply is not accurate,” Sanders said at a news conference here.
Sanders then added, with emphasis, that the “Democratic National Convention will be a contested convention.”
Comments
Sanders has now shown himself to be a narcissistic antidemocratic asshole. I say this not because he is continuing to campaign for votes but because he is advocating that the super delegates overturn the will of the voters. As a hard core Hillary supporter in 08 I never would have supported the super delegates over turning the will of the voters. Even in that much closer race Obama clearly won the majority of pledged delegates and could reasonably claim a popular vote tie. Obama won, I was disappointed but at no point did I ever suggest not would I have supported the super delegates ignoring the will of the voters and giving the nomination to Hillary.
I'm not worried about this. The super delegates will not overturn the will of the voters. But Sanders shows who he really is here. Some one so self centered that he thinks he's more important than the clear majority of voters. It's amazing to me that people still defend and support this man. Do Sanders supporters believe in democracy or not?
by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/05/2016 - 7:22pm
In another post, I noted that Sanders expects that he is entitle to things going his way. When things do not go his way, he whines. Sanders does not possess the character to be President. Some of his supporters try to divert attention from this fact by attacking Hillary Clinton. One form of attack used by Cornel West and others has been to point out that Marian Wright Edelman and her husband disagreed with the Clinton's stance on welfare reform.This line of attack ignores the fact that Marian Edelman's organization gave Hillary Clinton an award
From a WaPo article noting the tension between the Edelmans and the Clintons
Marian Wright Edelman has not endorsed Bernie Sanders.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-hillary-clintons-long-ten...
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/05/2016 - 8:13pm
rmrd - I sense that your view is that blacks who support Bernie Sanders, like Cornel West, are outside the mainstream and not well-respected in the African-American community. Is that how you decide who's respected - by whether they support Clinton? Wouldn't you be saying that Shaun King, Harry Belafonte, Michelle Alexander, Danny Glover, Nina Turner, Killer Mike, Keith Ellison, Ben Jealous, and Ta-Nehisi Coates were well-respected in the African-American community if they backed Clinton?
by HSG on Sun, 06/05/2016 - 11:30pm
In the context of the Presidential election, their opinions are not respected.
Coates voted for, but did not endorse, Bernie Sanders. Coates voted to appease his son.
You are incapable of understanding why Sanders failed to appeal to minority communities.
If Sanders continues to push on after Hillary is the nominee and risks creating enough disorder to make the election of Donald Trump easier, how do you think they will be viewed by the black community. Your line of questioning confirms that you are out of touch.
BTW, Hillary won Puerto Rico.
by rmrd0000 on Sun, 06/05/2016 - 11:56pm
The black people you listed have the same respect on the issue of the Presidential election as Ben Carson, Crystal Wright, Stacey Dash, Azealia Banks, Mike Tyson, Dennis Rodman, Terrell Owens, Jimmy McMillan, Rev. James David Manning, Latrell Sprewell, Herschel Walker, Herman Cain, Omarosa, and Armstrong Williams who support Trump.
http://madamenoire.com/619348/celebrities-who-support-donald-trump/10/
Oh and Gregory Cheadle the guy Trump saw in the crowd at one of his rallies.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-rally-goer-my-african-american-...
But not that black family
http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/06/04/3784856/trump-responds-accu...
The bulk of black voters aren't supporting Sanders or Trump.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 12:17am
So rmrd - to be clear in your view any black who supports Bernie in this election cycle is not well respected in the African American community at least when it comes to Presidential politics. Is there any room for departures from your orthodoxy in your community?
by HSG on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 6:33am
Sigh, your question makes no sense.
Hal, you presented a group of black Sanders supporters, I presented a group of black Trump supporters both are free to express their opinions. Blacks who support Hillary Clinton express their differences with the sanders and Trump supporters in blogs, articles, televised interviews, and radio programs. This is a concept called free speech. Black people are free to disagree with other black people. Trump is not respected in the black community. Sanders is creating a more negative opinion of himself in the black community by acting like a privileged white guy.
Blacks are airing their differences in a civil fashion. The only group who feels entitled to shut down the free speech of Democrats are supporters of Bernie Sanders. These protesters operate with Sanders approval. They have shouted down speakers at rallies and at state conventions. They threaten to disrupt the Democratic National Convention.
Blacks have no problem disagreeing with other black people. Sanders and his supporters argue that they will create havoc if things do not go their way. Sanders will continue to be an irritant and not a uniter after he loses the nomination tomorrow.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 7:56am
BTW, Republican candidate Gregory Cheadle is not a Trump supporter but he feels inspired by Trump. Cheadle also feels that blacks are too sensitive to issues of race. Given Cheadle's statements, are blacks free to say that they don't respect his opinions on Trump and issues of race?
http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2016/06/man-who-donald-trump-called...
Edit to add:
Here is Trump spokesperson Katrina Pierson, defending Trump's racist comments. Can I say that Indont respect her opinion, or am I preventing from doing so because she is black?
http://www.salon.com/2016/06/06/watch_msnbc_hosts_destroy_trump_spokeswo...
Can black people point out that Cornel West is a liar when he says infant mortality increased under Obama, or that black unemployment has not decreased, or that there have been no criminal justice reforms under Obama, or is that not allowed?
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/05/bernie-sanders-cornel-west-...
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 10:00am
rmrd0000,
Could you please speak for all black people? I am white and have questions.
by Michael Maiello on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 2:17pm
LOL
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 2:29pm
Is that how you decide who's respected - by whether they support Clinton?
I can't address the question of who is respected by a majority of African Americans but rmrd's objections to West predate this election by years. There has been extensive discussion of him here years before Hillary decided to run. From those discussions and the links offered even I knew that Sanders choice of West would not play well with the black community.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 2:46am
Thanks,
Cornel West was respected, but like Trump supporter Dr. Ben Carson , the image has been tarnished.
by rmrd0000 on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 10:03am
O-K - you call Sanders an "asshole" because he is saying the super-delegates should reverse the will of the majority of voters in the Democratic primaries. I agree that he is wrong to do this since he has also called for abolishing the super-delegates.
If Sanders is an asshole, what would you call somebody who repeatedly denies she broke the rules when the Inspector General has concluded she did indeed break the rules and who also lies about the time when the rules were changed? http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/06/05/stephanopoulos_grills_...
by HSG on Sun, 06/05/2016 - 11:34pm
Hal, we've discussed this at length. You should know what I think on this issue. But even if I accepted your analysis of the situation I wouldn't think that breaking some rule compares in any way to attempting to subvert democracy.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 12:10am
1) So you don't accept the IG's findings either? How exactly are they flawed. 2) My question went to Clinton's ongoing refusal to admit she broke the rules and her various lies in defense of her actions - not the seriousness of that action.
by HSG on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 6:26am
I agree with Snowdon´s view that the Security establishment has acted so illegitimately as ,sadly, could be expected of almost any organization with broad and essentially unchecked powers, that it has forfeited respect . Don´t you.?
If not, why not?
Why has Hillary not admitted she broke the rules? Perhaps because she 's running for office and that admission would hurt her campaign.
Has she lied in defense of her actions? I´ m shocked, shocked that she should have done so. She should have behaved like a well behaved nice girl and admitted her error even if that resulted in Donald Trump being elected.
Hal, I don´ t know what your experience is with the Govenment´s Security system. Almost the only thing on which I agree with those of my right wing friends who have- like me- been involved with it , is that it would ¨classify a ham sandwich ¨.
There are certainly legitimate grounds for criticizing Hillary such as for her support for her husband´s welfare policies and her vote for the Iraq War but I am completely unconvinced they include her being willing to work at home on the country´s foreign policy even though that upset the IG. Which, IMO, is why Bernie said he was sick and tired of hearing about it. Why do you disagree with him?
by Flavius on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 9:35am
I agree with you that we can expect an organization with broad and unchecked power to act illegitimately. We can expect the same of a high percentage of individual people if they gain such power. We can, I believe, expect an even higher percentage of illegitimate actions from a generic politician who has broad and unchecked powers. Hillary, as a particular politician, has been suspected by half the country for years , and very recently has been shown beyond doubt in the particular case of her emails, to have acted illegitimately both in the use of her system and in her defense of it when her hubris was discovered [again] and has thereby forfeited one more notch of respect among many voters. If that loss of a notch of respect were not the case with me I would be asking myself why not.
I would, as I have said before, also would not think of Hillary’s bone-headed handling of her emails, as a single stand-alone issue, to be a deal breaker if I didn’t think that she had already shown herself in many ways to be a poor choice to lead our country which has a system which is supposed to have checks and balances. Her email handling and the subsequent attempt at cover up is just one more example to me of her poor judgment but also her attitude towards her own accountability, and taken together are pieces of the whole which to me is a deal breaker.
I am certainly not "shocked" that she lied and actually, after so much for so long, not even surprised that she casually put herself in a position which could only be salvaged with lies appealing to voters who know they are lies. I wish I was shocked that when the lies are revealed they still work so well.
The existence of electorally powerful superdelegates is defended by many Democrats as insurance against a candidate such as Trump riding a wave of misguided voters to gain the candidacy for the highest office of our country. It is perfectly consistent with that view for a candidate that started in a far distant second place partially based on superdelegates who had aligned themselves with the Clinton machine, before any alternate choice to Hillary had even announced, to appeal to those superdelegates when it is shown during the subsequent campaign good reason why they should do so. The why-they-should-do-so part is of course subjective, debateable, and the very nature of the rift on the Democratic side.
I think the superdelegate system should be changed because it has been shown in this election cycle to be open to abuse. That said, it is part of the game as established by the Democratic machine and is in play in this election and if it has been used [and I think abused] by Hillary as an attempt to gain advantage I don’t object when Sanders tries to turn it back on her and use it to his advantage. If a late surprise were to make Hillary unelectable I believe that all of us who really really don’t want Trump elected would welcome the veneer of legitimacy that they could give to a choice of an alternative who could beat him. When I have criticised Hillary for accepting contributions from ‘big-money’ some defenders have said it would be stupid for her to unilaterally disarm and that she should not do so because the election is too important. I now apply that argument to her opposition’s tactic of appealing to superdelegates.
by A Guy Called LULU on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 11:51am
I agree with you that Bernie has every right to keep his options open And like you ,personally I´m glad he is, so we have an anchor windward if Comey should indict Hillary prior to the convention.
I can understand why the superdelegate system can annoy you. And the democratic ¨machine¨. But I think
that´ s a separate subject and discussing it in your discussion of Hillary to some extent links her with them which is a bit unfair.
I agree Hillary can appear and to some extent is high handed. Like every other politician who reaches her level. So be it. In life you have to choose, I choose to win and like Leo Durocher I think that nice guys finish last.
Given the possibility that he might well get nominated I´m comfortable that Bernie´s taking almost every opportunity to stick a finger in her eye. That´s the way the game is played.
By both of them.
Or as Durocher also said ¨Show me a good loser and I´ll show you a loser
by Flavius on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 1:01pm
Hillary has attempted to use the super delegates as an endorsement to sway voters. I have no problem with any major public figure making an endorsement. Sanders is attempting to use super delegates to subvert democracy. To overturn the clear choice of the voters. I see no moral equivalence here.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 2:40pm
I have said from the beginning that Clinton's refusal to fess up is a huge problem for me. It goes to a serious flaw in her makeup - an inability to acknowledge error. People who refuse to learn from their mistakes are condemned to repeat them. Thus, Clinton's insistence that she didn't do wrong - when we all know she did - causes me to conclude she will continue to make the same mistakes she has made in the past. I also prefer honesty to dishonesty as a matter of course. I certainly wish her refusal to admit error would cause her more problems than an honest accounting of her rule breaking.
by HSG on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 2:20pm
Why is it that our resident Bernie Bros consistently attempt to introduce off topic issues to divert threads? If you don't want to discuss Sanders self centered attempt to subvert democracy ignore this thread. I you want to discuss Hillary's email start your own thread.
when we all know she did -
I don't know it and I don't believe it. More than that I don't want to rehash it with you over and over and over again. Start your own god damn thread if you want to discuss it.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 2:51pm
So, Ocean-Kat, you're saying it's fine that Hillary had an affair with Web Hubbell, the real father of Chelsea Clinton and that she killed Vince Foster to keep it all under wraps, paying an assassin with money she earned trading cattle futures using capital scammed from White Water real estate investors?
by Michael Maiello on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 3:03pm
Who the hell was Vince Foster anyway? I never heard of him until he was murdered by Hillary. He should be grateful she made him famous. I'm fairly confident Hillary will pursue the the progressive goals I support. If she has to commit cold blooded murder now and then in pursuit of those goals I'm ok with that. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.
by ocean-kat on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 3:29pm
Kant argue with that.
by Michael Maiello on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 4:03pm
Hal. on what planet do politicians fess up to mistakes?
by Oxy Mora on Mon, 06/06/2016 - 3:02pm
Ed Pastor (D-AZ) has said it is good for Bernie to stay in until the convention to keep his supporters 'interested' in the election.
In my view, that may be true, but determining its effect depends on two quantum mental values of Sanders backers:
Both are normally measured in days. There are 103 days between the Democratic convention and the Nov. 8 election.
Note the key variable is the gap between the day BERN occurs, and the day when DUMB moves high enough to trigger a vote on election day. No telling how long it may stay above the line but for some it could be just days, or even hours. For most it would reach zero by midterms.
If BERN occurs too early or too late, DUMB may reach critical mass too soon, DUMB may degrade and disappear, or if BERN is too late, DUMB will blossom too late - after polls close.
I note from your link, The Bern did kick a guy out who demanded he run as a 3rd Party. Bern supporters like that may have a negative BERN value, only recognizing Bern is not a nominee until well into August or even September. What Bern himself does and says are the biggest unknown.
by NCD on Sun, 06/05/2016 - 8:42pm
Thanks Ocean-Kat. As a point of reference, did Clinton use this kind of verbiage in 2008---that the convention was going to be "contested"?
I tend to think Sanders is way out of line here but maybe Clinton did it as well.
by Oxy Mora on Sun, 06/05/2016 - 10:33pm
Hillary endorsed Obama on June 7. I don't recall her ever talking about a contested convention or using super delegates to over turn Obama's pledged delegate lead even though the popular vote was a virtual dead heat. For me that's the important thing. I like super delegates as an escape hatch for some extraordinary situation but in a normal election season the people should decide. Democracy, for all it's problems, is still the best system. The people should get to chose their government.
by ocean-kat on Sun, 06/05/2016 - 11:28pm